Q. Do we understand that you remember the Pologi incident because it happened in the winter time? Is that what you told us?
A. I remember this last mentioned incident especially because this was a typical case as......
Q. You said something about winter. You remember it because it was in the winter?
A. Yes.
Q. All right,
A. That was during a time when we were inactive.
Q. Don't you regard January in Russia as winter?
A. Yes, it's winter.
Q. What distinction do you make between the episode which occurred in February because it was winter and the episode which occurred in January?
A. No distinction. Not that big a distinction anyway but just the fact that there were two people whom I witnessed being executed. That is more impressionable then the incident of a large number of people who were executed and some that were left over.
Q. And some of whom you ordered killed? That's right, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, you mill not tell the Tribunal how many you ordered executed as the result of this episode in Guljapole?
A. I cannot mention that figure.
Q. Yes, and you have nothing further to add to this episode which you yourself volunteered on this matter of not regarding knowing how many were executed?
A. No, it is impossible for me because in the meantime I have forgotten the details and don't know how many were executed.
Q. You said that there were some people killed. When you use the adjective some you naturally mean more than one or two?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. So that when you say some already you project yourself into an estimate. Now what do you mean by some?
A. By some I mean more than one - several.
Q. All right. Several takes you up to about three or four. So, were there three or four executed?
A. Your Honor, it is useless. I cannot remember and I would cast a doubt on my credibility as some report might be found in the future and if the figure reported might not correspond with the figure I reported.
Q. Do you think, witness, that any doubt is being cast on your credibility when you tell an entirely impartial Tribunal that you do not remember how many people you ordered killed. Do you think any doubt would be cast upon your credibility? Answer that question frankly. Do you think the Tribunal would be justified in entertaining a doubt on your credibility when you say that you do not remember how many people you ordered killed arising out of an episode which you yourself have recalled vividly. Answer that question frankly.
A. Your Honor, if ther is any conclusion drawn from my words you cannot judge them.....
Q. Very well, how many Jews did you order killed in Russia?
A. As for Jews just because they were Jews I ordered none to be executed.
Q. How many Jews did you order killed not because they were Jews?
A. Your Honor, I gave no special order not to use the Hitler order. My tendency......
Q. Now please answer the question. Witness, you will please answer the questions.
We will give you every opportunity of explanation but we can never arrive at a meeting of minds if you don't address yourself to the case. Now I asked you first how many Jews you ordered killed and you said you did not order the execution of any Jew because he was a Jew. That naturally infers that you did order the execution of some Jews not because they were Jews but for some other reasons - they were saboteurs, looters or anytning that called for the death sentence. Now, I ask you: how many Jews did you order killed for a reason other than their race or nationality?
A. Even that I cannot say because this was not investigated and was essentially uninteresting. If a group of Partisans was captured which was active as Partisans and they were shot they were shot because of this deed. Nobody bothered to find out how many Jews were among them. Apart from the fact how could one find out that?
Q. All right, now you have brought up from your memory a Partisan action and you say that once demonstrated they are Partisans they are shot under the rules of war. Now you must have had in mind some particular episode when you volunteered that. Now tell us of one particular case where Partisans were captured and then shot. Tell us of the episode that you must have been thinking about when you volunteered that illustration.
A. I do not relate this as a recollection but I am repeating what was repeated to me from the Partisan area.
Q. Did you shoot any Partisans while you were in Russia?
A. My Kommando shot Partisans in Russia under my responsibility.
Q. Did you order the execution of any Partisans in Russia?
A. I did not need to give it as in an area in a definite case the Army leader approved of the undertaking.
Q. Witness, we are now going to have our recess and between now and 1:45 I want you to rake through your memory, comb through your recollections, and be prepared to answer when we reconvene at 1:45 the details of the executions in Russia, Russian executions which you ordered for any reason whatsoever.
The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:45 and during that time the witness will not talk to anybody.
(The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 9 December 1947).
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. WALTON: If it please the Tribunal, there is a matter of a witness which concerns Dr. Gawlik and myself. I feel that I should have an expression from the Tribunal on the matter, and I would appreciate if the Tribunal would instruct the Marshal to call Dr. Gawlik to be in court at such times as the present witness is finished with his examination, if the Tribunal will permit it.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. The provost marshal will please instruct Dr. Gawlik to be available this afternoon so that he may be present when the succeeding witness takes the stand.
EXAMINATION (Continued) BY THE PRESIDENT: just before recess we were discussing certain features of your activities in Russia. Now, we hope you understand that there is no intention on the part of the Tribunal to have you answer a question in any way other than the truth. We don't want you to believe that we press you unduly for an answer, but you must understand this is a very serious business. You have taken the witness stand and have voluntarily decided to give evidence. No defendant is required to testify unless he so desires, and his refusal to testify cannot be used against him. But since you have taken the stand and have volunteered to reply to questions put to you by your counsel and you have stated certain propositions, then naturally you must be subjected to further inquiry as to the correctness of these positions which you have advanced.
It is entirely immaterial to the Tribunal what the eventual result will be in any given case, but it is very important to the Tribunal that the truth be known, and if we do not receive the truth, then it is very difficult to arrive at a correct determination in any given instance. months. You went there as a soldier. You went there specifically as a leader of a certain group of men, maybe 130. Now, you conducted certain activities there, and how you conducted those activities will determine whether you are guilty or innocent of the crimes charged against you in the indictment. Now we ask you specifically in all this period of time that you were in Russia how many executions you ordered, and we have been unable yet to determine with some assurance that your answer is the answer which you desire. Just how many executions took place as a result of your order? Now, we will ask you again, in all the time that you were in Russia as leader of Einsatzkommando 12, how many executions did you order?
A. Your Honor, I understand how serious your words are, and I have always considered this to be very serious. When searching my conscience before I was not able to find out, and the hour you granted me did not help either to find an answer. A final conclusion I consider impossible in view of the circumstances. Why, I can't establish a definite figure, is because of the particularity of my assignment since my actual work started from October onwards. This makes it impossible for me to give a precise figure. The overlapping in the previous time in the commando make it difficult for me to decide what happened during the time when I was in charge of the commando and what happened during the time when I was not in charge of the commando, events which might possibly have happened during the time I was in charge and about which I only heard later on only could hear about later through reports.
to me which we will let you have because we think it is very helpful. We do not ask yo give us a precise figure and then hold you to that figure. That isn't the purpose of the Tribunal at all. We know that memory is a fallible function of the body and of the brain, but we also know that memory cannot discard the recollection of horrible events. Now, the killing of a human being is the sum total of horror. It is the ultimate in human distress, and whether you are on the receiving end or the giving end of death, it makes its imprint on the brain and on the heart in a way that nothing can eradicate it. So when we ask you to recall how many people you ordered executed, we don't expect you to give one definite precise, unchangeable figure, and then if that should vary from another figure that it would appear that you had purposely lied, but we do expect that you can as a reasonable and rational person give some judgment, some estimate on this very serious business of killing people. your question, I should like you to consider that however difficult each killing must be for the person who carries it out, an event about which one only learns from a piece of paper does not impress one so deeply, and one does not notice particularly whether this concerns only one event reported by a subkommando far away or whether it is reported from a foreign unit, because a definite idea and imagination cannot be connected with this.
That it should particularly have been done by a unit of mine and under my charge, the majority of reports which were received in my territory, and particularly up to October, mostly concerned events in other units, which are also used in my reports, as it was my duty to do. of 94 Jews during the harvest season, don't you? deeply because it was a single event, the only one which had happened before August. This was the one event of the commandos which was discussed. is that the way you recollect that? during the entire period from June until the end of August when I was stationed there, this was the only event which occurred, the only event of its kind, and therefore it impressed itself on my mind as a special event. I gave no collective reports about other events at that time. This event is, therefore, an individual incident and impressed my memory as something special.
Q All right. You remember this because it happened between June and August and it was the only episode which occurred at that time. Now, do you remember anything between September and November of that year? the time which I can overlook the least throughout my entire activity.
November? after taking over the commando again, I also found reports about shootings.
Q Did you know that these 94 were to be killed? were to be executed?
Q When did you find out that they had been executed? execution when the troop officer reported this to me verbally. these executions had been properly done?
Q Please answer my question. Did you investigate to determine whether each one of these 94 was worthy of death? happened. and decided whether in each case the person who had been killed had done something which merited death under the laws under which you were operating? so far away and could not come to me first. didn't even trouble yourself to find out whether the 94 had been properly killed? on the report ...
of these people were innocent, could you have done anything?
A. Certainly, I could have made the troop leader responsible for this..
Q. Yes. Then there was a point in investigating to determine whether the 94 deaths were in order, wasn't there?
A. Could I have that again?
Q. Then there would have been a reason to investigate these 94 deaths to determine whether they were in accordance with the law?
A. Not according to the explanation which the troop leader gave me.
Q I don't think that you caught the question. You said first that since the people were already killed there was nothing to be done. Then I asked you, suppose you had found that 20 had been innocently killed, or rather done to death although innocent. I asked you if you could have done something in that event. You said yes, you could have punished the person who brought about the improper deaths. Do we understand each other to that point?
Q Then there was a purpose, wasn't there, in reviewing these cases to make certain that these 94 had been killed because they committed a crime, there was a purpose, wasn't there?
Q Yes, but you did not do this; you did not investigate the cases. tell me that the persons concerned were to be considered as the perpetrators.
Q Witness, did you or did you not review these cases? subkommando leader had investigated the cases properly, I could not take a part in the investigations any more.
Q Then you did not investigate the cases; you were satisfied with what the subkommando leader had done?
Q You gave him authority to shoot. In certain cases he shot 94 people. He reported to you, "I have killed 94", and you said, "Very well". authority, but assumed the authority according to the authority and the orders given by the Wehrmacht.
to follow your leadership, hadn't you? had the special mission to do what they had been commissioned to do, and since it was an order from the Wehrmacht, they had to keep within that sphere for which they were authorized. know were shot; you told us about two more you saw shot. Now, how many more do you know were shot under you leadership? special episode which impressed me. Then comes the period of time from the end of August until October where the command of the commando was taken over by somebody else, and I am not at all certain about the figure of those shot, and I am not sure how many were shot on my responsibility during that time. For the following time since I was only in command of a part of the commando I knew more about it.
Q You told us abour having seen two people shot. Then we asked you just before recess if you know of any others that were shot. I asked you if they were the only two that you knew that were actually done to death by your commando, and you said, "Oh, no, there were many killed in partisan actions." How many were killed in partisan actions?
A That figure I cannot recollect any more. I can estimate that, but this estimate might be roughly between 100 and 200. two hundred partisans, is that right?
A No, your Honor, I did. not give orders for this. These shootings were carried out with the participation of a part of my commando, and I go so far as to say under my responsibility.
I assume responsibility for this, but I did not give orders for this. to 200, is that what you are telling us? Wehrmacht, those persons who were caught as active partisans, were shot.
Q All right. Now, did you order the killing?
A No. I was far away.
Q. Who ordered the killings? Wehrmacht officer in Nikopol who set the whole thing going.
Q Did you have anything to do with it at all?
Q What did you have to do with it now? actively took part in these actions and in the shootings.
Q Were you present when these partisans were shot?
Q All right. Now, up to the present moment we have the tally that you actucally saw two people shot, you know of 94 others who were shot, and then you know of from 100 to 200 partisans who were shot, so let's say 150. That is 244 people that you know were shot by your command in all the time you were in Russia, is that correct? period in September and therefore I cannot give an estimate.
Q Then there were more than 244. I have only counted up to this point. There were at least 244 killed by your commando?
A. Yes, your Honor.
Q. Yes, all right.
A. Even more were shot.
Q. All right, now how many were shot? Now we are getting some place.
A. About that, even if I most carefully search my conscience I cannot arrive at any figure.
Q. well, you couldn't arrive at any figure no matter how much you scrutinized your conscience just before lunch. You didn't remember any figure. But now after a little bit of nourishment you are apparently able to extract from this elusive conscience which apparently does not answer too quickly to the demands of your brain, that 244 were Killed. Now, let's see if you cannot scrutinize a little more thoroughly.
A. No, your Honor, I have scrutinized my conscience so thoroughly, and my former testimony that I gave about this .......
Q. All right, we want to make certain you stand at the figure of 244. That is the most you know of that were Killed by your commando during the nine months you were in Russia, is that right?
A. No,"this is not the most. The total figure I simply cannot determine however hard I try.
Q. Tell us how many people in all you saw killed while you were in Russia, that you with your own eyes saw killed.
A. I already told you.
Q. How many.
A. The two where I was present.
Q. In all the time that you were in Russia, in the very midst of one of the most sanguinary wars of all times, in the field for nine months, you only saw two people Killed?
A. Yes, and this can only be explained and can only be appreciated in connection with the special conditions under which I was active in Russia. It cannot be separated or simply be judged somehow in a vacuum, but until October, I was in reserve - -
Q. But you have given us that. Now, how many Jews did you Kill while you were in Russia?
A. I cannot give a figure, because, as I already said in some cases of the shootings, the figure of the Jews participating was never found out and never reported to me.
Q. How many Jews did your commando kill?
A. Your Honor, I can only give the Same reply to this.
Q. Did they kill any because they were Jews?
A. NO. A more anti-Jewish action was not carried out by my commando.
Q. Did your commando at any time Kill any Jews under the Fuehrer Order?
A. No. That did not correspond with my attitude to the Fuehrer Order, and it did not happen.
Q. You know that Einsatzgruppe D Killed 90,000 people during the time it was in action in Russia. How do you explain the fact that your commando did not contribute any to that 90,000?
A. I can explain this by the fact that, first of all, the figure of 90,000 in my opinion, as far as I have heard from others and what I got to Know, is a figure which I simply cannot imagine.
Q. Well, don't let us talk about your imagination now. we are talking about -- do you think it was about one-half of the figure -- 45,000?
A. I cannot say this any more, than I can give the total figure of the shooting taken place under my responsibility.
Q. You just said you can't imagine 90,000, how many can you imagine?
A. I cannot imagine this at all.
Q. Can you not imagine the 90,000?
A. I can imagine a figure, but I cannot imagine this because I do not Know the circumstances - -
Q. Well, now, Witness, can you not tell us you weren't present you were in Russia?
A. For example, I was four to five hundred Kilometers away from the Crimea.
Anything that happened in the Crimea, I cannot imagine at all. figure? doubted this figure and have questioned this figure, and because I have heard of individual events at the time, that there were different figures.
Q Do you know Ohlendorf?
Q You served with him in the field, didn't you? of credence? he gave before the International Military Tribunal. He is questioned by Colonel Amen: "Do you Know how many persons were liquidated by Einsatzgruppe D under your direction?" Answer: Ohlendorf, "In the year between June 1941 to June 1942, the Einsatzkommandos reported 90,000 people liquidated," Question, "Did that include men, women and children?" Answer, "Yes." Do you still question the figure? not want to establish such a figure, and he does not -- I am sure he cannot think this possible or probable.
Q Do you Know what Ohlendorf is thinking about? other people, but have great difficulty in finding anything in your own conscience. How many people were killed by the Einsatzgruppe D during the time they were in Russia, since you challenge these figures?
cannot give a definite figure on this either. has been far more fortright than you have been from the witness stand. We might as well add that gratuitously. Why did you take the six or seven thousand Jewish People across the Dnjestr River? given an order to do so. by taking them back to Rumania? about it. them back to Rumania? wanted to go home, I could assume that the Jews were satisfied that they were allowed to go home.
Q Didn't you know that they were going to be shot when they got back to Rumania?
Q You assumed that, didn't you? Now, tell us whether you confirm what you said yesterday afternoon, "I assume that the Rumanians wanted to get rid of them and send them into the German territory so that we would have to shoot them and we would have the trouble of shooting them. We didn't want to do the work for the Rumanians."
Did you answer that yesterday in answer to Mr. Walton's question? back to their death didn't you? and I did not want to express that in my testimony yesterday. outside of this lending them across the river?
Q Did you ever arrest a Jew? which were taken, I believe that there were Jews among the people.
Q Did you ever arrest a Jew because he was a Jew?
Q Not even when you were in the Gestapo? already.
Q Did you arrest a Jew as a member of the Gestapo?
Q Well, you did then, how many?
A I don't know any longer.
Q Well, was it 500? they were Jews, I did not arrest any Jews while I was in the State Police, at least not without reason. you were in the Gestapo?
Q How many?
A That was not an order. The order was the one ..... a Jew when you were in the Gestapo? received once.
Q Yes. Now, tell us about that case. November 1938. At the time I was in Munich at a meeting.
Q Well, we don't want too much of it in detail. You arrested a Jew out of the incidents that occurred on November 9 and 10. What did you do with that Jew?
A No, that is not correct your Honor. In Graz and in Styria, the Reichsstatthalter who was present there stopped this action right at the start, and it saved me the trouble of carrying out this order.
Q Then you didn't arrest this Jew? did you not follow out this order to arrest a Jew?
Q All right, when did you join the SD? time you never Killed a Jew, you never arrested a Jew, is that right? war, my activity in the State police. were with the SS, did you ever kill a Jew in your whole life?
Q Did you ever arrest a Jew in your whole life?