Q. No. No, I am only talking about your service with Einsatzgruppe D. We are not going into 1944.
A. Yes. Correct, and I only want to answer from that. In that time I first saw my reports, the reports about me, because they reprimanded me because of my bad achievements.
Q. Who made out these reports? General Ohlendorf?
A. All my predecessors made them out, and Herr Ohlendorf, of course, for the Einsatzgruppe.
Q. Did General Ohlendorf criticize you for your activities in Einsatzgruppe D?
A. It was not a good recommendation. It was just fair. There were few reprimands which were contained in this report. Otherwise they wouldn't have reproached me with them.
Q. You haven't answered my question. Did General Ohlendorf put a reprimand in there about your service with Einsatzgruppe D? He is shaking his head in the box. He says not.
A. I don't think that any conclusions have to be drawn from the gesture, which Herr Ohlendorf exhibits here in the dock.
Q. Well, how could your service have been more or less satisfactory unless you had killed Jews, Communists and Soviet Party functionaries in obedience to the Fuehrer Order?
A. Herr Ohlendorf knew himself in whit areas I was stationed and what he could expect of me. That, however, I was rather inactive could be seen from the report.
Q. Well, in September, 1942, do you suppose that you would have been promoted in rank unless you had had a satisfactory service up to that date?
A. When in September, 1942, I was made Obersturmbannfuehrer, (Lieutenant Colonel) is in assimilated rank, this came about automatically my promotion to Senior Government Councillor, and this promotion to Senior Government Councillor I received before H err Ohlendorf's report about me had reached my files.
Q. Yes, I don't doubt that, but do you suppose that you would have been in September, 1942, promoted to Senior Government Councillor unless your entire service to that point had been satisfactory?
A. I was promoted very late, and my promotion as can be seen from my record did not come about very quickly and was not very high. That was rather in automatic promotion.
has been most unsatisfactory in Einsatzgruppe D, or in the Gestapo Office prior to your service in Einsatzgruppe D; if any of your service had been unsatisfactory, you would have still got this promotion as Senior Government Counsellor? recommendations which do not weigh so heavily that I would be out of the question to be promoted within a certain time as on official. unsatisfactory remarks, your services generally were considered satisfactory, weren't they? had a recommendation from Dr. Best in 1939 in the files; that was a good recommendation.
Q All right. Let's come to the time when you were in service in the Reich Security Main Office after your return to Berlin. You have stated that you were designated to take over the staff command of the Security Police and SD, have you not?
A I did not make this statement in this form. Herr Wartenberg asked me: "You were to take over the staff-commando, weren't you?" I said: "First of all it was not e staff-commando. Secondly, I don't know whether I was to take it over." And, he said: "Yes, but I know that you were." I made so many corrections in this thing, about every first, second end third line you can see my initials, and this was so difficult to read that nobody could make head or tail of it, and some unclarity was left in it, which I didn't even basically object to, because the context is quite clear. a school in the suburbs of Berlin, end then you were called for duty in the Reich Security Main Office. What were you first told that you would have to do when you reported to the Reich Security Main Office?
That is all I want to know. that no decision had been arrived at as to what use I was to be put to. an inspector of some kind for a few months, or a few weeks, and after that, after you were relieved of this duty as an auditor or inspector. Then what were you assigned to do? them, Mr. Prosecutor. Please do not mind if I do so, I was not an inspector, I was an examiner in examinations; that was temporary job because they had nothing to do for me, and it was customary that they take practically experienced people to take part as an examiner, and they had to put questions in examinations. it. What did you next do? Chief IV, and report to him. I did so.
Q What did you do? What duties were you assigned to in Office IV?
Q What did the Department IV-D-V concern itself with? of the reports about partisans in the Eastern area of partisans. consolidation, and distribution of operational situation reports from USER, wasn't it? form. They had nothing to do with distribution, I merely got the reports which were competent for my department. They were sit distributed by the Main Office. four Einsatzgruppen?
Q Well, give us some approximate date? Every two weeks, every three weeks, every two months?
A Such report? Every day.
Q All right. How often would your committee of your commando staff meet for discussions and consolidation of these reports? from the East were discussed, but we read through those exceprts which had been written by various departments about the messages from the East, and of which these departments contributed, or made contributions. Every one came in there with the sheets, which had already been prepared as a contribution.
Q Do you know Dr. Knobloch, K-N-O-B-L-O-C-H?
Q Did you know Friedrich Rang, R-A-N-G?
Q Did you know Kurt Lindow, L-I-N-D-O-W?
Q Did you collaborate with him in these reports?
A Not with Lindow. During my time Lindow didn't have any idea about this. He sent reports, but how it was handled at my time Lindow didn't know. Rang was chief of a different group which had nothing to do with Russia. That was Rang, but he didn't know anything about these matters, I stayed with him in Nendorf, and, I stayed with him in the same cell when I was interrogated by the British, and he always said he knew nothing about these matters. After I was relieved from my office he may have participated in these editorial meetings, I don't know, but about whet happened during my time Rang didn't know anything, and he didn't work with me.
MR. WALTON: All right. At this time the Prosecution in refutation of his statement which has been made by the witness, that one Friedrich Rang knew nothing about his activity, and didn't attend any meetings of his commando-staff, I should like to offer into evidence Document NO-5153, which will become Prosecution Exhibit 189, and which is an affidavit of the witness Friedrich Rang, and respectfully submit a basis has been laid for the introduction of this affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: Is the affiant alive?
MR. WALTON: Yes. Well, I'll say, I think, yes, he was the last time I heard from him, which was some time after he signed the affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I don't know whether Dr. Hoffmann was harboring a hope that he might have been dead.
MR. WALTON: I take it, it is not necessary for me to comment on that, Your Honor, I shall pass unto further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, very well. BY MR. WALTON: of an Einsatzgruppe, or Einsatzcommando, was not suppelemented or altered in any way by your committee when they acted on these reports, was it?
Q I am not even asking you about the document. You can have that and read it when you leave. I am completely through with that document, The question which I asked you is about your general nature and not what Rang said about it, your general duties?
THE PRESIDENT: Better repeat the question, Mr. Walton.
MR. WALTON: Yes. BY MR. WALTON: of an Einsatzgruppe, or an Einsatzcommando, was this supplemented by Your committee, or altered in any way by your committee before it was issued?
A Yes, of course, he could do so. I shall give you an example, which might make these things very clear. Let's say a report coming from White Ruthenia, a report about the youth there. That the newly founded White Ruthenian Youth Movement was anti-Soviet and that the support of all youth, and another report about partisans which another department contributed said that this applied to the partisans....
Q I think you misunderstand the question. Let me rephrase the question?
AA mong the partisans there were many youths? Then that was a contradiction.
Q Let me rephrase the question. Would your committee alter such facts as the location of a specific Einsatzgruppe or a specific Einsatzcommando.If the commando reported that it was at Tarnopol, would you think the committee would alter that statement in the report? reports, is that correct, never supplemented, or never altered in any way?
AAt my time it was handled in the following manner:
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. Just a moment.
MR. WALTON: Just a moment.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment, witness, all the examiner desires to know is whether you reported whet cane to you; you didn't change the geographical facts, did you?
THE WITNESS: No, I did not alter geographical facts.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, so you did not alter any facts?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, that is all. BY MR. WALTON: the total number of executions during a reported period, would you?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I have expected this question, and that is why I tried to make this limitation, and to give this explanation. Those things in which I participated -
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. Just a moment. You say you anticipated the question but you certainly did not have your answer ready, because you are going into a long discussion now. What Mr. Walton is really putting to you is, did you falsify any report which came from the field, that is the whole story, did you falsify any report?
A I didn't. But he referred to executions....
A But he spoke of shooting and executions, which didn't occur in these reports on which I worked, those on the basis of Hitler's order, actions against Jews, that is. This is the decisive question for me. BY MR. WALTON: committee of the Commando-staff, weren't you?
A Mr. Prosecutor, to be a senior officer on such low level is a very simple thing, because the departments only delegated pretty low-ranking officers, and it was not very difficult for me to be the Obersturmfuehrer, the highest ranking officer. What I had to do I have already explained in my direct examination. It was merely technical -- purely a technical matter of proof-reading of this material, and the processing of it, to see to it that these contributions were stencilled and distributed. Discussions about measures did not take place in this connection.
Q All right. Were you in charge of the group which met to consider your share of the duties on these reports?
Q All right. Now, let's turn to Document Book II-D again. Page 20 of the English, page 25 of the German. Prosecution's Exhibit No. 86. This document, as you will see, gives the total of executions performed by Einsatzgruppe D to the date of reporting, on 12 December 1941, to be 54,696. Do you still state that the 94 Jews killed in the Harvesting Action, and a few Killed by Einsatzgruppe XII, when Hausmann was in command during your absence, are the only executions contributed to this total of Russian Nationals by Einsatzcommando XII?
committee as being done for racial reasons. It was a measure that I have already made clear. In this connection many reports were made out by me about many executions, that is our own executions, as well as foreign executions. I never got into such a situation as to carry out a purely Jewish action. is that what I understand you to say? necessary. I can not remember a figure but a usual number of measures was necessary in this period. share to this total of 54,696 Russian Nationals? the Fuehrer Order, and anything else, and this number must include my figures, of course. English, and page 27 of the German, the Document NO-2634, Prosecution's Exhibit No. 87, if you will turn to page 20 of the original Your Honor, that is page 28 in the book, under paragraph 4, headed "Jews". That is almost at the end of the document,witness. Do you make the same answer to the total of 75,881 persons?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I can not give you an answer in this connection. I an merely asking if you make the same answer to this, if Einsatzcommando XII, in the total number of shootings it contributed some of them, or its share of them? included again,that is obvious.
Q And one more document, witness. In the same Document Book, page 29 of the English, page 34 of the German, which is Document NO-3338, Prosecution's Exhibit No. 88 -- I am sorry, Your Honor, I think the page is wrong.
THE PRESIDENT: There is something on page 30, and carried over to 31.
MR. WALTON: You are right, sir. It is 31. The Document is NO3338-A, and that is, witness, on the page right at the bottom of page 10 of the original. You were in command of Einsatzcommando XII on the date of this report, were you not?
A I have not found the passage you mean. Is it the report of the 19 January on?
AAnd what place do you refer to? it is right at the end of page 10 of the original, where it says, 685 Jews, 1639 Partisans and Communists were shot between 1 and 15 January, the total number being accordingly, 80,160. The question I asked: On this date, between 1 and 15 January, you were still in command of Einsatzcommando XII, were you not? XII contributed its share to this total is the same as to the other two documents which I have just shown you?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, I must explain it more clearly, As for the previous questions, I have said that the total figure included these people that the Einsatzcommando has reported as executed, but in this case the number reeds as another total figure, so this report and the previous one refers to actions which happened between Sinferopol and there, and they always referred to incidents in which Einsatzcommando XII is never mentioned, and that is decisive.
Q I have no interest in this 685 Jews, and the 1639 Partisans. What I am asking you is that in this total of executions of 80,160 , performed by Einsatzcomnando D to the date of this report, I put to you, witness, the same question that I put to you on the other two documents; of this total of 80,160, is it your opinion that Einsatzcommando XII contributed some executions to this grand total?
of 75,881 executions, that it contributed its total or its share to the total of 54,696 executions. Why didn't it contribute its share to this total, when the total killed was 90,000 in the whole time that you were?
A Mr. Prosecutor, you asked the question more precisely here in the last instance, you always took the periods of time covered in the report, and that is now shown here at all. If in my reports of September, or October any executions are mentioned, these are included in the figure of the fifty, or seventy-five thousand, or eightythousand, but our contribution is not always listed as for each period, so I con not comment on this. These are all reports which refer to clear incidents, and to areas with which Einsatzcommando XII had nothing to do. accordingly 80,160 executions, as that many after the date of the report which gave the total of 75,881, is that what you are trying to say?
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
A. About the activities of Einsatzkommando XII I cannot say anything at all. Einsatzkommando XII is not mentioned at all.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton, I wouldn't spend any further time with this. He has admitted that Einsatzkommando XII contributed its share to the grand total of 75,000. I wouldn't waste half an hour trying to determine whether it contributed its share to the 80,000.
MR. WALTON: I have no further questions. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, how many executions did you personally order?
A. Your Honor, it is not possible for me to give you a definite specific figure for that.
Q. Well, give us your best recollection of the number of executions that you personally ordered?
Q. Even that, your honor, is not possible for me to do.
A. Well, is it because the number is so great or the number so small that you cannot remember how many people you ordered to their deaths?
A . The figure as such would not be possible for me to remember exactly. There are a lot of lapses in my memory and I wouldn't want to give any figure which might be wrong or right.
Q. Did you order anybody to be killed?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you regard that as a grave matter to send someone to his death?
A. Yes, very.
Q. Then wouldn't that have made such an impression upon your mind that you could recall now after these years how many you had sent to their Creator?
A. Your Honor, this is due to the fact that one had records on incidents concerned. There are many persons and one had an idea of those persona and people - so and so many - were sent to their death and others were released. I only remember the incident as a whole that I investigated then but I cannot say what the ratio was exactly.
Q. You will not or can not tell the Tribunal how many people you personally ordered killed during the time you were in Russia?
A. No, I cannot do so.
Q. Was it as many as six or seven thousand?
A. Certainly not but it is useless to give any figure.
Q. Well, you remembered six or seven thousand Jews that you escorted across the Dnjestr River. You mentioned that number specifically. You regard taking someone across the river of less moment than of sending him to his death?
A. Your Honor, as much as I was mistaken in this figure can be seen from the fact that in my first interrogetion I mentioned three thousand and afterwards it seemed to me too little. If I look at places full of people it is very difficult to estimate. So, again it is not a true recollection.
Q. But your best recollection today is -- and you went out of your way to call it to the Tribunal's attention -that there were six to seven thousand in that camp, is that right?
A. I estimated them. After I thought it over now how long they marched and how many people there might have been I think perhaps it was inaccurate.
Q. All right, Now you recollect people that you say marching to their death, the people that were brought up before the execution Squad - it certainly would have produced as vivid an image in your mind as these people marching across the bridge and you tell us now to your best recollection how many you ordered shot while you were in Russia?
A. Never. I cannot give you any figure.
Q. All right then, how many people did you see killed? How many executions did you witness?
A. I saw two men shot.
Q. In ell the time that you were in Russia you say only two people shot?
A. NO. I personally saw these two people shot. Otherwise the execution took place where the incidents took place
Q. In all the time that you were in Russia how many people did you see shot?
A. I personally saw two men who were shot by my kommando.
Q. Tell us about these two.
A. These were two people who were arrested with four or five other people because they were people for whom the Wehrmacht was looking. they had set up a secret radio transmitter in Pologi and sent news to the Russian Army. As the investigations reveald they were ordered...
Q. Did you conduct these investigations?
A. No, not myself but I was very much interested in them.
Q. Did you review the Investigation?
A. In this case, yes.
Q. And then did you order them shot after you investigated the case, after you read the investigation?
A. NO.
Q. who ordered them shot?
A. I did, but not immediately.
Q. Well then you ordered these two shot? Well, then you do remember two that you ordered shot? You told us a moment ago you wouldn't hazard any estimate. Now you do remember two people you ordered shot, is that right?
A. I said I cannot remember a definite figure which were executed on my orders. I saw these two men shot.
Q. Did you order these two people shot?
A. Yes.
Q. Yes. So you do remember two people that you ordered executed?
A. Yes.
Q. Now can you recall anybody else that you ordered executed?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Give us the others.
A. Well, for example, I cannot tell you exactly, I think it was in Guljapole, a large number of persons were first of all arrested. Part of them were shot against whom the investigations showed that they had mined the Front Intelligence of the Army to blow it up.
A. And how many of them did you order shot?
A. I cannot exactly remember because I only remember the number by how many incidents, how many cases, there were and against how many persons investigations were carried out.
Q. Well, this incident that you have just now mentioned resulted in some executions. How many did you order shot after investigations and after acts which entitled them to be killed? How many were there?
A. I cannot say, your Honor.
Q. Was it 50?
A. Any number is wrong or correct. I cannot give any number.
Q. Did you see them shot after you ordered their execution?
A. NO.
Q. Now you tell us just what the episode was, where was it, in Guljapole?
A. In Guljapole.
Q. Please spell that for me, Mr. Lea.
A. G-u-l-j-a-p-o-l-e.
Q. All right. when did this happen?
A. In January or February in the New Year 1942. I don't know the exact date.
Q. Now tell us just what happened?
A. Well I only remember this much. Some Wehrmacht agency sent a courier and asked for a few people who might carry out investigations. Something was not right. The personnel in the Intelligence Center, the Russian auxiliary personnel, had found some sort of suspicious people who had connections with the outside and wanted to investigate the matter. The investigation took some time. I don't know how long.
Q. Were these your investigators?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you follow the investigation yourself?
A, No. I always got reports from time to time.
Q. Fine. You got the reports. Now you tell us what these reports said.
A. Well the final result was that a certain circle of people was considered very hostile to the Germans and that they had made preparations to blow the center up.
Q. How many were in this circle?
A. I cannot tell you how many.
Q. All right. A circle of people - they were going to blow up the Germans. Now tell us something further. What else was in the report?
A. Well nothing more. Afterwards there was the result and I don't remember that exactly. I only remember it as an incident because it was interesting. Any details I do not remember.
Q. It was interesting to you that these men were going to blow up somebody but it wasn't interesting to you that you Killed them, is that right?
A. Your Honor, we were interested in the matter and it was out duty to investigate such matters.
Q. And you reviewed the investigations?
A. Yes.
Q. And after you reviewed the investigations you gave the order for execution?
A. Yes.
Q. And how many were there?
A. I cannot tell you exactly. My recollection is only of the incident as such. I cannot give you the figure.
Q. Were there 500 shot?
A. Not that many.
Q. Tell were there 100 shot?
A. I don't think so. Any figure is wrong.
Q. Were there 50 shot?
A. Your Honor --
Q. Answer that question yes or no.
A. I cannot give a number.
Q. Were there 10 shot?
A. Even this question I cannot answer.
Q. Were there 5 shot?
A. That would be the same answer.
Q. Yes there one shot?
A. Yes, some were shot.
Q. All right. How many were shot?.
A. Your Honor, I must repeat the same thing over and over again.
Q. You just reconstruct in your mind this scene. Here is an incident which you recall after five years, You volunteer this incident. Certainly there must be a picture in your mind of this circle of people that are conspiring to do harm and damage to the German forces, that you are requested to send out investigators. These investigators go out and conduct their inquiries and interrogations. They make up a report. This report is submitted to you and you read this resort and as a result of the report you order certain people to be shot. Now it is incomprehensible that you could recall an incident of this importance with all the details which you have given us and leave out that most essential, vital part of the number of people killed. That does not square with common sense or logic. You are an attorney. You are a man of ability and you have conducted yourself on the witness stand with accumen and clear thinking, Now you answer question. Take as much time as you require and tell us how many were shot.
If you don't answer that question the Tribunal will be compelled to draw whatever conclusion will come from so illogical a refusal to answer such a very natural logical question.
A. Your Honor, I cannot give any figure of those shot under my responsibility. I remember the incident and my memory is supported by the reports here when the reports were submitted to me. But even here, some matters I could not remember. Only could I remember them when I saw the reports again and recalled them more clearly. In my situation reports I reported everything which took place in my area .........
Q. Just a moment. Just a moment. You told us of the two people you did see shot, Where did this occur? Where did this occur these two people that you did admit having seen shot?
A. In Pologi:
Q. And when did this take place?
A. It must have been at the end of February or the beginning of March.
Q. How many people were in the Execution Squad?
A. About six men.
Q. Did you make certain that the execution was conducted in a military and humane fashion?
A. Yes.
Q. Yes. How, how is it you recall the execution of these two in February 1942 but you do not recall the execution of a much larger number in January of 1942? Explain that to the Court, please?
A. This execution of two people I attended myself. I witnessed it. Therefore, I remember it especially well. Then it was such an interesting case as it was very rare in Russia that here one captured a man who sent messages to the enemy, Then the following had to be considered. In winter when we didn't undertake many activities and when we were cut off for weeks, every detail became something big for us, bigger than if it had happened at a time when in the areas around Nikolajew when the Roumanians came in and the Germans left there were so many agencies around us and so many units operating around us that when these matters were mentioned to the group - all of this sort of thing escapes me and I cannot remember specifically.