Court No. II, Case No. IX.
Q. The Prosecution has mentioned that it was as early as 16 January 1942 that you were the Fuehrer of SK-IV-B Einsatzcommando, that is to say, that you had arrived at the front at that time. Could you give us any special reasons to show that at that time and even at a subsequent time you were still in Berlin. Could you tell for how long after that day you remained in Berlin?
A. Yes, I can say for one things, at the beginning of January I spent a fortnight with my parents, stayed with my mother who was sick, and went to Hirschfelde for that purpose. Secondly, I can remember for certain that within the last few days of January, either on the 25 of January, or 27 of January, a friend introduced me and invited me for the first time to beginning at a birthday party of a Herr Sattler, who was then the president of the central grain office. I also know for certain that in February I attended a party that was given by a family who lived in our house. And at the wish of my parents, before I went to Russia, I had a photograph taken at Berlin, the Berlin Seylendorf, that was, and as I had mentioned before, II didn't leave alone, I went together with Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Weinmann. Frau Dr. Weinmann, the witness for Dr. Weinmann, testified to that.
Q. Did you at the end of February 1942, go straight to the East, or were there any other interruptions or delays?
A. There were interruptions, and there were very long interruptions, that was Lemberg and Roff and Kiev. You must remember what the conditions were like at that time in Lemberg and Roff. There were certain German soldiers on leave. They had been there for a number of days. There had been some of them down there for weeks and could not go on, which was due to the climate, due to frost, due to the state of the railways, the trains were unable to keep up with all of this traffic, at least for four days, that is the minimum. I don't know how much you have investigated, or did I ask you to make an investigation, but it could be possible to find that the communications, postcards, and letters were lost unless they had been looted.
Q. And when in your estimate did you actually arrive at SK-IV-D?
A. As I said, the earliest stage I could have arrived was the 15th of March.
Dr. REIDIGER: Mr. President, there is only one more question I want to ask on this point before the recess. BY DR. REIDIGER:
Q. Witness, could you no explain to us why in the report of 16th of January 1942, Einsatzgruppe II-A, on page 61 of the English text, and page 64 of the German text, that is Exhibit No. 42, NO-3405, and the later reports of 26 February 1942, Document Book I, page 86 in the English text, and page 18 of the German text, Exhibit NO. 22, No-3340, and, in particular, in the report of 6 March 1942, Document Book II-C, page 61 of the English, and page 65 of the German text, Exhibit number being 80, NO-3240, why in all of these documents you are referred to as "Fuehrer SK IV-B?"
A. Yes, I can explain this now. When I was interrogated by Mr. Wartenberg, I could not explain that point. I just didn't know what to say to that assertion, or to that fact. I could merely believe or assume that my name must have been misused, but now I have come to another explanation, and, I think that is a true explanation, I have discovered that not only in my case such incorrect statements have appeared in the documents. I heard the order for me to go to the front, that I know for certain. That order I knew at the end of January. I knew at that birthday party at Dachlers, at that time I knew about that order. At that time I knew II was to be sent to the East, therefore, I assume the personnel department, or the expert on personnel matters immediately and automatically passed on the order to the agency within this Office IV-B, and that there automatically the name was entered without bothering to find out whether the person concerned was or had actually arrived at the front, or not.
This is not only the case with me but it happened to Dr. Weinmann, and also I refer to a few other comrades of mine, or any other cases, where it was alleged that they had actually assumed their new position which didn't occur that day mentioned in such reports.
THE PRESIDENT: Do I understand, witness, that while you were attending this party in Berlin, some one sent your name to headquarters, and because of this information picked up at the party you were officially designated as being in Russia?
THE WITNESS: Well, Mr. President, that is a misunderstanding.
THE PRESIDENT: I understood you to say as your explanation, that it is a conjecture on your part as to how your name could have been mentioned as leading a commando in Russia, although you were still in Berlin, that your conjecture is you were seen at the party, and your name was sent in, and there through some carelessness it was entered in the records, that you were leading a commando in Russia?
THE WITNESS: yes, after the order was issued, -- well, the order was in January, that was , at the end of January, and after that order was issued, the personnel department in the RSHA apparently informed the agency which made up these reports, and that agency simply entered my name as leader of the commando on the reports without making sure whether the person concerned had actually arrived in Russia, or not.
THE PRESIDENT: What has this got to do with the party?
THE WITNESS: To make an explanation of the other.
THE PRESIDENT: yes, what has this got to do with the party. You drag in a party in your explanation, as to how this misunderstanding occurred, and, it is very difficult for me to comprehend how some one attending a party, like a party in Germany, or like a party anywhere else in the world, how can the fact of a person at a party who was drinking cocktails, which was four-thousand miles away in Russia, I don't understand, what the party has to do with this misunderstanding?
THE WITNESS: Your, I believe the misunderstanding must have occurred, and that the birthday party had nothing whatsoever to do with it. A little while ago I was asked whether I could show any proof for substantiating the statement that in January and February I was in Berlin, and now I can remember among other things that at the end of January that was that birthday party, the date that I attended it. THE PRESIDENT: Then the point you want to tell us is that the fact you were at a party proves that you were not in Russia in January, and, the fact that you were at the party has nothing to do with the mistake made in the headquarters of the RSHA in its listing you as being in Russia at the time, is that correct?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
THE WITNESS: yes, that is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:50 P.M.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until 1350 hours.
(Recess until 1350 hours, 2 December 1947.)
(The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 2 December 1947).
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. HOFFMANN: Hoffmann for the Defendant Nosske. the Defendant Nosske was excused from attendance in court, so that I might confer with him. I made a mistake by not ordering Nosske to come to 57 at eleven o'clock sharp, but fifteen minutes later. Thus, from an administrating point of view I cannot talk to him any more this afternoon. I ask you now, your Honor, to help me get the chance to talk to him this afternoon in spite of this mistake this afternoon.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we can remedy a mistake, and especially for Dr. Hoffmann it is a pleasure to do so. The marshal will be instructed to speak with the person in charge of Room 57 and see to it that Dr. Hoffmann may communicate and confer with his client Nosske this afternoon, in view of the fact that Nosske is the next defendant ready to go into the witness stand.
DR. HOFFMANN: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You are welcome.
DR. RIEDIGER: Your Honor, may I beg on behalf of the Defense-Counsels for the Defendants Blume and Sandberger that the two defendants be excused from attendance in court this afternoon, and may I also ask you to arrange that Blume and Sandberger be sent to Room 57? Both need this spare afternoon in order to prepare their defense, Blume and Sandberger.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that in connection with their document books?
DR. RIEDIGER: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. The defendants Blume and Sandberger will be excused from attendance in court for the purpose indicated by counsel.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Riediger, before you proceed with the examination of the witness as to his activities in Russia, let us have in a very succinct form just what he was to do in Russia. BY THE PRESIDENT: were instructed by Stahlecker and later by Heydrich that you were to go into Russia and that you were to fight saboteurs, partisans and obstructionists, and that you were also to offer protection to the German Army. Did that constitute your mission in Russia, briefly put, of course? Streckenbach and by Heydrich too, was an assignment at the front for the security of the front. That is to say, to guard the rear of the German troops immediately in the front area from elements which endangered the security of the individual German soldier and the front area. Communist functionaries? Heydrich never mentioned to me. The word never occurred. The mission was not given to me down to the last detail.... regarding Jews, Communist functionaries and gypsies? gypsies were never mentioned. The word was never mentioned even.
word "Jews" was never mentioned? and in offering security to the Army it was necessary to be on guard against the Jews?
A No, your Honor, this was never mentioned. If I may repeat, the individual persons or elements who might endanger the security of the troops was never mentioned at all by Streckenbach in any way, nor did Heydrich do so, but I was told that corresponding orders existed with the Army, and that the mission of the commando was already fixed, and it was pointed out that it was permanent. That was during the second discussion with Streckenbach.
Q Did you know that Jews were active Communists; did you know that from other sources?
A No, your Honor. If I am to reply to this question now, at the time it was never mentioned; the word was never mentioned ...... Jews in Eastern Russia, or in Western Russia, Eastern Europe, were very active Communists; did you know that from other sources?
A No, I cannot say that in this form. At the time, as I said, it was never mentioned, and I would like to say every Russian citizen who was a Belshevist was inclined and suitable to be specially radical in action. which called for a liquidation-
Q Well, I didn't finish the sentence, but you apparently know what I am referring to.
What was the Fuehrer Order? What was the Fuehrer Order? You answered before I finished the question, so, therefore, you are familiar with it. Now, what was the Fuehrer Order? Tell me.
got to know it here, says that Jews, I don't remember the exact wording now, it was mentioned here that Jews and gypsies and dangerous elements were to be killed.
Q And when said you first learn of the Fuehrer Order? of the Fuehrer Order - for the first time here from Mr. Wartenberg. The question was never asked or never addressed to me whether I knew the Fuehrer Order, but Mr. Wartenberg told me the fact that the Fuehrer Order Existed.
Q And when was that?
A that was during an interrogation. It must have been the last interrogation, I believe on 23rd July.
Q '47, A '47, yes.
or perhaps even in May, but at any rate in that period, six years went by before you learned of it, is that right? about the order to liquidate Jews?
Q How long were you in Russia? altogether. From the middle of March until about middle of July I was in Russia, but there were interruptions. with your subkommando leaders? told anything about the existence of such a Fuchrer Order.
leaders? That was the question.
Q And did you discuss with them what had to be done?
Q Now, please answer the question. Did you discuss with your subkommando leaders what you had to do?
Q That is all. Now you have answered the question. when you arrived in Russia were you told about the orders which were pending, and which had been executed by your predecessor in the course of his duties?
A No, nothing was mentioned. As orders I merely got to know those orders which the Army had issued concerning the civilian population. you would go to Russia and there would find detailed orders. Did you say that? existed, yes. prior to your arrival there?
Q And who was the previous commando leader?
Q Braune? Did you talk with him when you arrived?
received and which he was putting into effect?
A No. He merely pointed out to me, in the general conversation, the general orders and decrees from the Army High command -he was called upon to execute?
A Your Honor, I misunderstood you then. We did not talk about the detailed orders, about each individual decree by the Army High Command, but we merely discussed the general affairs. He told me in broad outline that certain decrees and orders from the Army existed for the civilian population which had been publicly announced, and these orders were in the hands of the Chief of the Executive Department. upon to put into effect, didn't he? of the commando from the time when I took over the commando.
Q Now, you please answer the question? It is not a difficult question, and I don't see why you won't answer it. I merely ask you, did you talk with your predecessor Braune, had been executing prior to your arrival? to turn over to you to put into effect? A Braune did not have to turn over orders or decrees to me, and he did not do it in fact. He merely told me and showed me how the front area was and the present situation in the front area, and apart from that he introduced me immediately in the Army High Command and with the liaison officer who was appointed for this. The situation I saw was this, that - -
Q. Just a moment now, did he not say to you, "Now, Haensch, I am turning over the Kommando to you. I have been here so long and this is what we have done. I have here certain orders and I turn then over to you to put into effect." Did he say anything like that?
A. No, your Honor, not in that form.
Q. Now, tell me ....... but very briefly, briefly please, just what he told you to do? Keep in mind, here is a man who is in charge of an organization an he turns it over to his successor who has just arrived.
Now, what did he tell you, briefly?
A. Braune told me that the front area had to be guarded and the Kommando had to look after this, in particular to guard it against partisans and newly infiltrating elements who constantly increased in the front area and were enclosed there, .........
Q. All right. Now, that's one item, to cover the front line area and to guard against elements infiltrating through, one, all right. Two, what's the next thing he told you to do?
A. That was the Mission of the Kommando. He emphasized particularly that it was the word of the Kommando and was running according to schedule.......I could rely on the executive officials and beyond that, I should and could turn to the liaison officers of the Army who had been in good relations with him and his predecessor, and of whom.......
Q. He did not mention Jews at all?
A. No.
Q. Did the word "Jew" ever fall from his lips in his conversations with you?
A. Your Honor, I don't know now but I can't imagine, the idea of measures against Jews.
.....
Q. Now, just a moment please, witness. Witness, now you must answer questions, not make a speech each time something is directed to you. Did the word "Jew" ever fall from the lips of Werner Braune when he discussed with you what were your duties as his successor?
A. I don't know, your Honor. I cannot remember, that.......
Q. Did it or did it not?
A. No. I can't remember.
Q. No. All right. Did the word "Jew" issue from the lips of Streckenbach when he instructed you as to what you were to do in Russia?
A. No.
Q. Did Heydrich ever mention the word "Jew' to you in his conversation with you?
A. Yes.
Q. Who?
A. Well, I am just thinking that it was mentioned during discussions which I had. for example.....
Q. Not for example. I want to know who mentioned the word "Jew" to you.
A. I could name Thomas himself. When Thomas came on an inspection visit.
Q. All right.
A. When Thomas came on an inspection.
Q. Yes, and what did Thomas way about Jews?
A. When Thomas came on an inspection visit he asked.
You see, whether in the territory any Jewish craftsmen existed, any Jewish workers......as there was a great lack of craftsmen in the Ukraine altogether and in the Ukrainian territory the Jews mostly did the skilled labor.
Q. And what did Thomas ask about the Jews? Did he ask you to get some Jewish workers for him
A. This was not necessary, your Honor, because he did not know that in our territory, that in the territory under the Kommando such Jewish craftsmen did not exist.
Q. Well, he mentioned Jewish skilled labor. Did he ask you to get some for him, or did he tell you that there was a great lack of them? In what connection did he talk about this Jewish skilled labor?
A. That is what I wanted to mention before. In this connection he said craftsmen were urgently required for workers essential for the war and in Dnepopetrovsk large workshops were being set up for which craftsmen were particularly required and who were to be used there to do work essential for the war, in particular tailors.....
Q. But now please restrict it to the Jews. Please don't ramble all over the place. What did he say that he were to be assigned to these jobs.
Q. Yes. Then he asked you to gather whatever Jewish craftsmen you could and send them to these plants; is that what he told you?
A. Yes, your Honor, but this not only concerned Jewish craftsmen but it was like this......
Q. Now, just a moment. Did he tell you, "I want you to get some Jewish craftsmen or as many craftsmen as you can, but where they are Jews you are not to liquidate them, in spite of the fact that there is a Fuehrer order out, the Jews are to be liquidated."
Did he tell you that?
A. Your Honor, liquidation of Jews was never mentioned at all, and I cannot say anything else. I already said this to Mr. Wartenberg, that for the first time I heard about this fact Here and may I add one thing now? The following happened during my time in the territory of SK4B. I know that quite a number of Jews, and as far as I remember there must have been more than a hundred, were used as panje drivers for the Army. From the rear Army territory, or at least from the rear, they brought up new vehicles to the front, that must have been in April or May.....
Q. All right. That's enough. You told us that you know that a hundred Jews were use as drivers for the Army. It isn't necessary to go into so much detail. Proceed, Dr. Riediger.
Q. (By Dr. Riediger) Witness, the Tribunal just asked you whether, in the time from February until June or July, when you were with SK4B, Jews were ever mentioned. I would like to clarify during what time you were with SK4B?
A. Formally I was Kommando leader from the middle of March until the middle of June approximately. I was physically there, except for the time for about three weeks when I was on an official trip to which I had been ordered to Berlin and Prague. The days in Berlin before were considered furlough and also another two weeks previously on the occasion of an official trip to which I had been ordered to Kiev.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Riediger, if you are going to give us the periods, have him give the dates, he arrived March 15, went to Prague.
Let us have it specific, if you are going to go into that, because if he just gives it generally we have no better picture than what existed before.
Q. (By Dr. Riediger) Dr. Haensch, when did you arrive at the Kommando?
A. As I said, at the earliest in the middle of March, on 15 March, at the earliest.
Q. And when were you ordered to go back?
A. Middle of June.
Q. During that time, from 15 March until the middle of June, were you constantly with the Kommando?
A. No.
Q. During what time were you absent from the Kommando?
A. I was absent from the Kommando for about two weeks in April. I cannot say now. I do not know the exact date anymore. I don't know it anymore; that was on the occasion of the official trip to Kiev.
Q. And you say for two weeks?
A. Yes, about fourteen days.
Q. During which time were you in Berlin and Prague?
A. In Berlin and Prague......I left for Berlin and Prague either in the last days of April or in the first days of May 1942.
Q. And how long were you absent?
A. And then about the end of May, about 20 to 25, it must have been about then that I returned.
Q. Who was in charge of the Kommando while you were absent?
A. During my absence automatically the chief of the executive department was in charge of the Kommando, who also automatically continued to be in charge of the Kommando when I finally left in the middle of June for Berlin.
A special kommando leader was not appointed at the time, at least not as far as I know, and I did not hand my kommando over to any kommando leader.
Q. Witness, the prosecution charges you that during your time the following executions took place. They are, in document book l, pages 36 and 87 of the English, page 118 of the German, exhibit number 22, No-3340, report of events of 25 February 1942. I quote: "Sonderkommando 4 b, in the time from 14 January unitl 12 February 1942, 861 people were shot after court martial. Of these, 649 were political functionaries, 52 were saboteurs and partisans, and 139 were Jews."
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment, people. The translation came through as court martial. In our document book the phrase appears as summary court. Would you please check on that, Miss Interpreter?
THE INTERPRETER: Summary courts is right.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you. The correction is made.
DR. RIEDIGER: I want to correct myself, The translation is summary courts.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the record will show that correction.
Q. (By Dr. Riedeger cont'd) Also, in document book 2 C, page 60 of the English, page 65 of the German, exhibit number 80, No-3240, I quote: "Sonderkommando 4 b executed 317 persons, among them 63 political activists, 30 saboteurs, and partisans and 1224 Jews."
THE PRESIDENT: I think there is another slight slip. It is 1317 instead of 317.
DR. RIEDIGER: Yes, 1317.
THE PRESIDENT: Can we blame that on the lawyer and not the interpreter?
DR. RIEDIGER: Please blame it on me, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Fine, I am gland that it is you this time.
Q. (By Dr. Riedeger cont'd) "By these measures the City of Artemowsk was freed of Jews." Witness, did you have anything to do with these executions during the time when you were in charge of the Kommando?
A. No, I had nothing to do with executions. The period of time shows this, As that time I wasn't in Russia yet, and I heard about these executions here for the first time. But may I draw your attention to the following: What I saw here in a document, this same report of 6 March 1942, is already contained and appears already in a report of events, or rather in an activity and situation report, number 9, dated 27 February 1942. That is document number 3876-PS in document book 3-A.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, when you arrived to take over the command of 4 b did you study the reports which had been submitted on the activities of that Kommando in the immediate past?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, no reports existed and no reports of events either. It was prohibited. There was an order that my written records should not be kept because of the nearness of the front, but these reports of events, during my time at least, and I think it was like this in general, were not sent to the Kommando from Einsatzgruppe C.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, but each Kommando sent in reports, did it not?
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You made up reports yourself, didn't you?
THE WITNESS: One report, a so-called situation report, was made when I was there, just one situation report was made. I remember that.
THE PRESIDENT: And you didn't find any reports at headquarters when you reported?
THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor. It was like this, that of this situation report which I mentioned no copies were kept and were not allowed to be kept.
Q. (By Dr. Riediger) Witness, you said that you had nothing to do with these executions which mention such large figures of people. Did any executions to that extent take please at all or any executions of Jews?
A. Executions of Jews or such mass executions I never witnessed and I did not get to know of them.
Q. During your time were Jews or Gypsies killed merely because they were Jews or because they were Gypsies?
A. No, and I would like to mention here expressly that this question neither in thought nor in words was ever discussed.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, do you doubt today that this situation report, number 177, dated 6 March, is correct?
THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, after seeing these reports and after knowing them I have no reason to assume any longer that this did not happen.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Now, assuming that you were not there when this happened and it would have had to happen prior to March 4, and you didn't arrive until March 15, and 1224 Jews had been shot within a month preceding your arrival, don't you think that some time or another something would have been said about the execution of these Jews by the very men that you had now taken over in your command?
THE WITNESS: No, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you not see anything unnatural about silence on a matter of this enormity al though you were with the men from two to three months? You see nothing unnatural about that?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I would like to assure the Tribunal that I thought about it seriously ever since my interrogation in order to find an explanation for the fact that these events occurred during that time as can be seen from the reports. I came to the folllwing conclusion came to my mind. I personally do not believe that these executions should have occurred such a short time previously. I don't think so because of what I have seen in these documents. Here is mentioned that every thing was quiet on the front, may I see the document?
THE PRESIDENT: You are talking about the operation report 177 which shows that 1224 Jews were shot some time COURT II CASE IX March of '42 or a few days before?