Q All right. I accept your explanation at this particular time. Now let's go on in the some Document Book II-D, to the next report, which is on page 22 of the English, page 27 of the German, and is Document NO-2834, and is Prosecution Exhibit 87.
MR. WALTON: Your Honors, I refer specifically to page 28 of the English, and to the last page of the excerpt, witness, which is page 20 of the original..
Q (By Mr Walton, continuing) Now, in your direct examination you testified that you could not be charged with these executions, because your Kommandos were active in the second part, of this period only, is that correct?
A That is not all, Mr. Prosecutor. I made some reservations concerning the time, and concerning the area; and thirdly, I doubted the total figure as such, contrasting it with other figures.
Q Doctor, you anticipated my next question. But just to keep the record clear... you stated that Karasubsar and Feodosia were never in your area of command, and your sub-units of your command were active approximately five days in Jewpatoria and for ten days in Alustchka and Kerch, did you not? Was it Kerch? I did not get that word, I am not sure what it was.
MR. WALTON: The English-
A (continuing) I beg your pardon, but my trouble was that I did not get the German text at all.
THE PRESIDENT: Please repeat the question, Mr. Walton. BY MR. WALTON: in your area of command, is that correct?
A No, that is not correct. What I said was that Kerch and Feodosia did not belong to my Kommando. Mr. Prosecutor, you must have made a mistake there.
Q All right. Kerch and Feodosia were not in your command.
WITNESS: May I interrupt for a second? There is something wrong with the German translation. I get it very weakly. I can only just about understand it. The strength of it is only a fraction above the normal. Will you repeat it? Yes, I can get it properly. I just moved the switch. Thank you.
Q (By Mr. Walton) So that we can understand each other, the towns of Kerch and Feodosia were never in your command, but that you did have sub-units of your command for approximately five days during the period covered by this report in Jewpatoria, and for approximately ten days covered by this report in Alustchka and Karasubasar? into a town or village before you began to carry out your security missions? How many hours would lapse?
A Mr. Prosecutor, that is a purely theoretical question, and in that form I cannot answer it for that depends on the tasks with which one had to deal, and what the actual situation was. If what you want to know is, whether in the first twenty-four hours the sub-Kommando had been attacked by partisans, if that is what you want to know I can tell you that probably that is how I imagine it...within the first twenty-four hours the partisans would have been shot. Forward elements of your Kommando reach a town. This town has already been taken by the German Wehrmacht, and they moved on, and now it is time for the police to come into the town. All right. I will ask it this way: As soon as you reached a town with your Kommando, wasn't the first task which confronted you, for your own safety, to apprehend and to remove all potential threats to your security...wasn't that your first task, as soon as you reached a place?
A Well, Mr. Prosecutor, they immediately tackled all their tasks. They made contact with the agency of the Army forces, they tried to find people who would give them data, with Intelligence, who knew the place...certainly, they also tried to find out whether the important objects, such as the water works and the gas works which were of special importance had been made safe and were in order. personnel reached the town, then?
A I believe so, for certain; but actually I was never there when a sub-kommando did these things. But that is what I imagine. I imagine that the commander of the sub-kommando would have tackled all his tasks. or to collect up the Jewish Council of Elders in order to get the registration list of the Jews and the Communist functionaries in the place, at the same time they looked after the water works and the same time they took over from the elements of the Army, they also treated the Jewish problem, is that correct?
A Well, perhaps I may stick to this example. Before one has made acquaintance of people who had a particular knowledge in the place, one has to find out, who are the most suitable people, and that means in enemy territory that first of all you have to get hold of other people who, in their turn, can give you information, and in the meantime, time passes.
Q Yes, what I want to know is how much of this time passed. Was it a matter of hours, or a matter of days, or a matter of weeks?
A Mr. Prosecutor, perhaps I can give you a concrete example. The Sub-Kommando 10-a, as far as the documents show, reached Simferopol on the 3rd or 5th of November...that at the beginning of December orders were received from the Army, that is to say, four weeks later, the execution had not yet been carried out. I cannot tell you whether the sub-kommando leader after two days, or after ten days, had the registration carried out.
Perhaps this example will show you that it isn't days one goes by in such matters. tration of the Jews was concerned...how long did it take there?
A I really can't tell you, Mr. Prosecutor. I don't think it out of the question that both executions too, as far as any executions were necessary, were carried out before Christmas - but I think it highly improbable. I am more included to believe that they took place in January, but I cannot tell you for certain.
Q Well, as a matter of fact, Doctor, isn't it possible-- I don't say that it happened, but isn't it possible -- in some of the smaller places to get the registration lists from the Jewish Council of Elders and know of the name of every Jew and Communist functionary in a few hours after the arrival of your units in a specified town? Isn't it possible?
A I think that is practically out of the question, Mr. Prosecutor. For it meant entering a town which was destroyed...the zone was practically destroyed... and you have to have seen those Russian town..."towns", in quotes... I am firmly convinced that the first thing my sub-kommando did was to look for accommodations. Perhaps after that the sub-kommando leader went out to see where the nearest army place was, where he and his people would get something to eat in the evening and next morning. That is probably how it happened.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until one-forty-five.
(The Tribunal recessed until 1345 hours) (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 1 December 1947) BY MR. WALTON:
Q. Doctor, prior to recess for the lunch hour, we were speaking of the duties of the commandos upon entering a given town. You testified that they had duties which were in connection with the preservation of utilities, public utilities, electricity, and water, taking over the police duties from the Wehrmacht; you also said that they were concerned with the finding of billets in these badly shot up towns for the Einsatz Personnel and the German Personnel, and they also entered upon the solving of security questions in the Jewish problems, is that correct?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Now these activities went on simultaneously. I mean, enough personnel was present to start handling all questions concerning the safety and security or the German forces, and the preservation of whatever you found there?
A. Unfortunately there was not sufficient personnel. There was such a small subcommando, and we had everything in such a short time to finish as a job, but I have only given a concrete example. I told you in Simferopol that it was more than a month before the Jewish problem had been solved.
Q. Now sometimes in the smaller places could not your commando in a space of a few days have every Jew report to a place designated by the authorities through the council of elders for registration?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I said this morning that I can remember for certain that as far as these small places it was necessary to carry out any executions.
I told you that in the case of Jewpatoria XI-A carried out the executions, as I said, I believe I can remember for certain that before Sinferopol, that is to say, prior to the middle of December, these executions were not carried out in other places either.
Q. In January 1942 didn't you take any more towns, January and Febuary of 1942?
A. No. Mr. Prosecutor, I told you how it was in the Crimea; it was in the second half of October that we took the Crimea, and I have already testified how it began with the individual subcommandos entering the Crimes, and I have said what time my commando entered that it was at the beginning of January when the town of Alushta was occupied, and it was from that time until the end of July the men were stationed there and at that time we left. That is where they were.
Q. Well, according to your own testimony subcommandos also went into Karasubasar and Alushta, your subcommondos, didn't they?
A. That is correct. After my commando had arrived, after the vehicles had been brought up slowly, that was at the beginning of January, after that the various commandos were organized, and they marched off. I repeat: They went to Karasubasar, they went to Alushta, and they wont to Eupatoria later and that is where they stayed until we left the Crimea. There was no change in the locations.
Q. Well, you also testified, I believe, that in December some of your commandos, certainly the forward elements, went into some of these towns, didn't they?
A. Yes, yes, that is what I said. So far as I remember that was the first half of January.
Q. They were not there in December at all in spite of What you testified?
A. No, there must be a misunderstanding. Will you repeat your question, please? If I understand you correctly, you want me to confirm that in December the subcommandos were sent to these various localities, and there they stayed until we left the Crimea.
Q. I do not have a transcript of the record before me, but as I remember it in studying the document for Wednesday's testimony of last week, you said that your forward elements of your entire commandos reached Karasubasar, Alushta and Eupatoria approximately the 5th to the 10th of December 1941?
A. Yes.
Q. Now with.......
A. Yes, yes, it was at that period, at that time,
Q. So that five to ten days, the way your commando operated, was sufficient length of time for this unit to begin to perform executions in Eupatoria and Alushta, wasn't it?
A. No, it was not enough time, for I said that during the first few days no executions took place, and that sofar as I remember, sofar as any executions did take place they were carried out after those at Simferopol, and, that is why I am saying that those executions which had been reported in Berlin on 12th December; that in these executions my commandos had not taken part.
Q. We had left the document dated 12th of December, and the one before us is dated 2nd January, and refers on its face from 16th November through the 15th of December 1941?
A. Yes, yes, I beg your pardon, the mistake was mine. I thought you were still referring to the document of 12th of December.
Q. All right. This document which we are discussing now is in Document Book III-D, and the beginning of it is on page 22. We are referring to that portion which appears on page 28 of the English text, and on the last gage of the German text, and is Document NO-2834. being Prosecution's Exhibit No. 87. Now, will you state under oath that none of these 21,185 Russian citizens were killed by members of Commando XI-B from 15th of November to 16th of December 1941?
A. No. Mr. Prosecutor, I never meant to say that. What I said just no' is that we have been mistaken on the other points, because I have thought you were still referring to the Document of December 12th. I believe that under direct examination I conceded that during the last few days of the period from 16th of November until 15th of December, shootings might have occurred with my subcommandos, too.
Q. In Karasubasar and Alushta?
A. In karasobasar and Alushta that is possible. As to Jewpatoria I want to exclude that, because as I showed in the document the subcommando for the first time on is mentioned on 10th of December.
Q. Did your commando to your knowledge, your subcommando to your knowledge, ever execute any Communists or Soviet officials during the time that you were its commanding officer?
A. Communists and officials, I don't think that is the right expression, if you are referring to Communist functionaries.......
Q. Yes.
A. .....or Communists who were engaged in actions against the German Wehrmacht, and who had violated those regulations which were threatened with the death penalty by the Wehrmacht, in that case I have to answer in the affirmative.
Q. Who finally determined whether respective persons were Communists or Soviet Functionaries?
A. In direct examination I read out of a document the Fuehrer Order, according to which the decision had to be made by an officer, and that was how it was with my subcommandos before I took over the command, and that is, also, how, of course it was after I had assumed the command, that is, to say, the leader of the subcommando was the person who had to make the decision in accordance with that Fuehrer Order.
Q. Did you ever make such a decision yourself?
A. I can not recall that, but it is testified to that at Simferopol my subcommando leader notified me in a case before that had been dealt with, and that we agreed that a person who had committed sabotage, or whatever also he had committed, and had to be shot in accordance with the order that had been issued.
Q. Now down to what level were Communist party functionaries considered a danger to your security, for example, the town mayor and council were always considered security threats, were they not?
A. I believe, Mr. Prosecutor, that is a point here which needs clarification.
Q. Yes.
A. I have in the course of my previous examination had the impression that by a functionary in our language is meant something different from what the English word "functionary" means. We understand by the term "A Communist Functionary" a political functionary; that is to say, a political leader of the Communist Party. I myself in my direct examination explained this, and, I believe it has been mentioned here a great many times, that the bulk of those functionaries fled, but of those who had remained, concerning them, I never witnessed a case of such a functionary not having stayed behind but with a definite task, and in all those cases these men stayed behind in accordance with Lenin's and Stalin's orders, in order to become active.
I can not remember one single case where such functionary was not apprehended without our discovering that he was in charge of a Sabotage group, or was engaged in intelligence work, or to engage the enemy in support of a Partisan group, or was a person who had sabotage action carried out in the Wehrmacht, by other saboteurs. I can remember a case, Where a certain large drive with poisoning was initiated. There was one case, Where they had planned a poisoning with Arsenic, and if they had succeeded 10,000 German soldiers would have been killed. Behing that action there was the fun ctionary, who was in charge of that action; and, I should also like to say that an official, say, an official of a Municipal savings Bank, or any other administrative official, was not considered as dangerous, because of his work, but if you mention this Lord Mayor of Simferopol, I should like to point out that in the Bolshevist system, the entanglements between the State and the Party was such in such a position that the Lord Mayor at the same time also carried out very important functions in the Party, and, if he did remain behind he did so with definite concrete aims.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, we understand the communist system and the Nazi system were alike, were they not?
A. Your Honor, I believe that in the National socialistic era the important positions of the State were occupied by reliable National Socialists, and the offices of these persons carried out two-fold functions, insofar, that is correct.
BY MR. WALTON:
Q. Then as I understand your testimony, it was not the position which a man might hold in the Communist Party which made him a security threat, but the task he had before him, after the occupation by the German authorities, or the German forces, which made him a threat, is that correct?
A. I should like to emphasize that the Fuehrer Order was intended to have the Communist functionaries, in the meaning in which I described them just now, in my conviction, because it was known what part those functionaries played at the rear of the German Army. What we saw in actual practice was what I have just described. I never heard of one case, and I never saw one case, but where a man had not played an active part.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the original question of Mr. Walton's remained unanswered, not through any fault of yours, witness, but since we have now clarified what was meant by the answer to the question, suppose we have an answer to it. What he wants to know is, down to what level were the Communist functionaries considered dangerous. The difficulty with the question was that Mr. Walton apparently was thinking along political lines, and you corrected him, properly on that, insofar as the Fuehrer Order was concerned. Now, let's have an answer to that question, keeping in mind the correction and the clarification, which you have so well given us.
A. I should like to answer the question as follows, your Honor: The Communist functionaries were all those persons who had any leading function within the Communist Party, either they fled, or they remained behind to carry out a mission.
THE PRESIDENT: The question is answered. Proceed Mr. Walton.
BY MR. WALTON:
Q. Doctor, let me direct your attention to Document Book III-D. page 58 of the English, and page 98 of the German, Document NOKW-1863, which is Prosecution's Exhibit no. 164, Your counsel questioned you on this document, but in the transcript of the record I read, a few questions were not answered, I would like to put a few of those to you. Who signed this document?
A. I signed the document as you can see from the document.
Q. Now you have said in direct examination that this was purely a military measure. If this is so, why were you selected as a commander or the whole operation?
A. It is impossible for me to repeat all the terms which I used in those two days. What I can say, and what I believe I did say, after I had given detailed explanations, was that this was a definite order from the Wehrmacht, which was an order issued in a given certain situation, and that in that situation it referred to the communication of the Barbarossa order, which had been quoted, that is to any, for tactical reasons the Wehrmacht could issue orders at any time, and as I have said, that was the situation which we were faced with in those days in January.
All commandos and all men were under the immediate orders of the Wehrmacht. Strong points were built. Defense installations were built. The entire intelligence service was organizaed so as to meet the plans of the partisans. The men were committed for action as in Feodosia and *upatoria, and in that extremely precarious situation, not to call it a hopeless istuation, we received that order from the Wehrmacht. I further testified that it was the Wehrmacht which dealt with the practical carrying out of the measures, and I told you that approximately 2500 soldiers were committed not quite 50 of our men, and finally all six districts through which fighting went, as you can see on Page 2 of this document that is Page 1 of the original - that all that was carried out under the orders of officers of the Wehrmacht.
Q Well, let's come back. How was it that you were selected to command the whole operation? Did the Army select you or did General Ohlendorf select you to command the whole operation?
A Mr. Prosecutor, the document shows, I do not believe that I could ever have sent an order to the Army as you can tell from the last page, distribution, AOK 11, 1*Qu. I should think that is supposed to be O - Qu there, where I write "By order of AOK". If, in fact, such an order had not been issued, I believe in that case the Army would have had something too to say to me, if I had arrogated that right to myself. Command of AOK 11 addressed to you to command the operation, or did it come to the Chief of Einsatzgruppe D, and the Chief of Einsatzgruppe D said, "Dr. Braune, you have to carry out this order of the Army High Command." Which happened?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot tell you for certain now, whether that order first went to the Einsatzgruppe and then to me, but I believe in the situation in which we found ourselves at the time that order must have gone direct to me, and I had to obey it.
which at that time was in this particular place? divisions here or table organization shows that there was presentation each one of the districts of the city one leader of the Security Police and the SD, if this operation in the districts was under the command of an Army officer? the measures just as the 350 members of the Armed forces in that area which are mentioned there. in officer class? I did not have six leaders under my command in Simferopol. Maybe others were involved as well. This altogether shows that it says leaders here because that was what the O. Qu had laid down, but perhaps one of them was a Haupscharfuehrer or Sturmscharfuehrer, and those men, and the order makes that quite clear, were subordinate to the Wehrmacht officer in the area who is designated here as the district leasers.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton. I don't know just what your are attempting to gain from this questioning. As we understand the documents the Army High Command gave an order and he executed it, using personnel of his own or personnel furnished by the Wehrmacht. What is there more to it than that?
MR. WALTON: He has testified, sir that these districts which are shown here were under the command of the Wehrmacht. Now, I was asking him to explain the reason for one SS leader who, from experience and testimony here, an SS leader is generally of the officer class, what he was doing in these districts if it was under the command of a Wehrmacht officer? In other words, I wanted to know how far his 47 men infiltrated into the districts to carry out his orders, or the participation, the actual participation or the membership of the Einsatzgruppe 11b in the action.
That was all.
THE PRESIDENT: We understand that one of his men was in charge of each detachment, when they went into this district and executed the order.
MR. WALTON: Yes, sir: he has explained that now.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I see.
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, may I correct one point? It wasn't that one of my men had the leadership in those districts, but as you will see from Page 2 of the document -
THE PRESIDENT: Not the district, the action, the operation.
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. Now I understand.
Q (By Mr. Walton) How many suspected persons were brought to the assembly points at the conclusion of this action?
A Really, Mr. Prosecutor. I can't tell you but I may assure you that the experience which I had during all those years was the same experience that we have had here. In all those large scale operations as a rule the result was nil. Two and a half thousand men were deployed, and that deployment caused such an upheaval that persons, who were really suspicious and dangerous probably had escaped to safety a long time ago and that is how I remember vaguely that this operation in effect too was a failure. assembly points for further screening?
A I cannot exclude that possibility, Mr. Prosecutor. That was our task, and if we encountered any people who constituted an acute danger in that difficult situation, in that case we arrested them. The officers did not let a man go they thought he was a partisan.
Q Were there any executions as a result of this raid?
A Mr. President, I can't tell you. All I can say is I cannot exclude the possibility. I am correct, when this document has first shown to you you told your attorney that, "I remember in detail about this action."
I don't have the transcript of the record, but I studied it very carefully. Now, I am asking you some of the details. If your memory fails in these, that is quite all right. It is your right and your privilege to testify according to your memory, but I do ask that you carefully consider your answer to see if you cannot remember the answer to some of the questions which I am asking you. Is your answer the same to the question if there were any women and children rounded up in this action? children among them. I can assure you that. We never searched for children. We screened the people who were on the streets, pedestrians. We asked them for their papers, etc. As far as I remember, in spite of the large personnel we had, it was impossible to go through every house, although it said "if possible." I can also assure you that when I said that I remember a certain thing very well. I was referring to the situation in which that action, that operation was carried out at the time. I remember the atmosphere Very well and I have given an adequate account of that atmosphere. the bottom of Page 60 of the English text of this same document. "The then," and I quote, "The then remaining persons will be taken to the transient camp 241 in trucks available for that purpose, where the Sonderkommando 11b will determine their further treatment." Did you have to determine any further treatment on any of the people which you rounded up? something of the kind, in that case I believe that my subkommando kept them under arrest and decided about them in the same manner in which they decided about other saboteurs and partisans, but I repeat once again that I can't give you any detailed definite instances.
rounded up as separate from the saboteurs and partisans?
A If there were any Jews. Mr. Prosecutor, they were shot just as the other Jews. afforded these people?
A Mr. Prosecutor I believe that it has been made adequately clear here that under the order which has been issued there was no scope to hold trials of Jews. English, Page 104 of the German. It is Document NOKW-584, which is Prosecution's Exhibit 165, and which is the official report of a certain Wehrmacht Major Riesen. You have testified on direct examination that the population of Eupatoria assisted the Russian troops, when they drove your forces out of the city, did you not?
A Mr. Prosecutor, it was a little different. Military aid given by military units would have had to be regarded as ordinary soldiers. If it had been like that the Commander in Chief of the Army would not have ordered, would not have issued that order, but prisoners of war would have been taken. But in this case franc tireurs and snipers got their weapons out of hiding and fought as franc tireurs or snipers, and two or three trucks full of German soldiers were attacked an the German soldiers had their throats cut, and the partisans dano*d around these murdered German soldiers. When a report was made to the Commander in Chief, and, in accordance with the Fuehrer Order which I have quoted, he ordered those men as Snipers, franc tireurs and partisans to be shot and -
Q I understand that. I understand that, and from your testimony of last Wednesday, but the population did assist the Russian troops which landed? That is what I asked you. all right, you can use that expression.
their troops came into the city to throw the German forces out. That is what they did, did they not?
A Mr. Prosecutor. I wasn't there. I don't know, whether the German soldiers were still fighting within the town. The Russians were getting in from the beach. They had made landings, and nobody knew what was that. The soldiers had to defend themselves everywhere. Shots were fired from the houses. Perhaps they were thrown out of the city by the regular Army. I have already pointed out that the center of the town was still occupied, when we got there on the 7th of January. There was still fighting for the town going on then, but you cannot say that the town had been taken and that after it was taken the civilians had come along and said, "Well now, we are going to fight as Russians, and how we are going to join ordinary units of the Wehrmacht, and how we are going to join in the fighting." That is not how it was.
Q Well, when these troops landed isn't that a natural action for patriotic people to rise up against, what they called the invader. to help expel him from the town, isn't that a perfectly natural action?
A Mr. Prosecutor, the reaction may be normal, but I think the natural reaction in war concerning francti**eurs and snipers has at all times been that you treat then as such. their place? that if I were caught by the enemy I would lose my head. that were murdered by the civilian population in Eupatoria?
A I can't give you the exact figure, but there were two or three trucks full of soldiers. It may be there were forty or fifty men. I can't give you the exact figure though.
Q Isn't 1184 executions as reported here a hard price to pay for the killing of forty Germans?
A Mr. Prosecutor, that is a matter of opinion. I have just now read an order, or to put it more clearly, I have read a sworn statement according to which for one killed American soldier two hundred German are to be shot. Mr. Prosecutor, not that I want to condemn that, all I want to do is to say that during this war evidently such measures were taken, and I believe it would be wrong to say that forty or fifty, twelve hundred were shot, but I understood the officer in change to be of the conviction that hardly one of these men who were able to bear arms had not taken part in that illegal fighting in one way or another. BY THE PRESIDENT:
A Your Honor, just recently. One of the last few days, but I don't know what case it was. I read through a transcript, and a German, I think he was a German officer, confirmed under oath that in April or May, 1945-
question. I asked you a very simple question. Where did you read this sworn statement?
A In the prison here. Your Honor. It was a copy from a transcript from some other tribunal, from another case. I don't know whether it was Case VI or Case VIII. Anyway, it is a trial pending here now.
Q Who gave you this transcript?
A I can't tell you just now whether it was one of my comrades who gave it to me or whether it was a defense counsel who gave it to me. I believe it was one of my comrades who gave it to me
Q Which comrade was it?
A Yes, I have remembered. Your Honor. It must have been Blobel.
Q Who?
Q And you remember Paul Blobel's testifying on this very business here in court, can't you? for having made it? Do you recall that? for having made it? Do you recall that?
A I know that Your Honor. Yes, I know that..
Q Now, do you want to go further than Blobel went? copy of a transcript. *nthfurther than Blobel did here on the witness stand in this very courtroom?
A No, Your Honor, I don't want to go further.
Q Yes, All right. Now, Blobel withdrew his statement and declared here that he was in error and apologized for the statement. You heard that, didn't you? than Blobel himself did?