A. The SD reporting the way I carried it on in the Reich, was not concerned with the security question but with the problems of domestic life, with domestic problems.
Q. Was the SD the security service?
A. SD means security service.
Q. And does that mean worrying about domestic problems or is that concerned with studies of those persons who threatened the security of Germany?
A. May I have reference to the many statements made here already that the SD work actually did concern itself with domestic problems, not about reporting of enemies.
Q. So that you say that you were not at all concerned with the Jewish problem, and you did not know how many Jewish persons were in your area, and you did not do anything with them although you had an order to murder them?
A. I said that ghettos were installed by my Commando during my time and that the towns established Jewish counsels.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Ferencz, I would like an amplification of this answer about the functions of the SD. The witness has stated that it was not concerned with security, but only with domestic problems. This answer followed a statement that SD was security police. It is difficult for me to reconcile those two answers. Would you please endeavor to have that illucidated? BY DR. FERENCZ:
Q. Witness, you have heard the question from the Tribunal. Would you please explain why it is that the security service was not concerned with security questions?
A. It has already been attempted here to keep those two concepts apart, the one concept is in the security service, and the other in the security police. The security service as a branch was occu pied, under the leadership of Ohlendorf, with reporting about domestic problems, about the economy, about culture, religion, etc.
The security police dealt with police security against the enemy, but both are combined in a single formation in an SS manner which finds its expression in the SD ensignia which these people wear on their sleeves, the man who deals with domestic problems as well as the man who does police work; in one case it is an SS unit where both branches are united under the same uniform, and in the SD it is a matter of an information function, an organization reporting on domestic trends. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Did you function in both capacities, both in security police and security service?
A. I always belonged to the security service, the SD.
Q. You never had anything to do with the security police?
A. I had nothing to do with the security police outside of the fact when I was commando leader in Russian, before that I did not have anything to do with it, later not either.
Q. well, you say outside of when you were in Russia, that is what we are talking about. That's like saying, you never had anything to do with the war except between 1939 and 1945. You were in the Security Police when you were in Russia?
A. Yes. All branches were together. That was a new combination which we did not know in the Reich; the SD and security police were now combined in one unit in the assignment, but both functions within this unit remained intact and had to be carried on. Therefore, the Einsatzkommandos had a police mission as well as an SD mission.
Q. Yes, so while you were engrossed in writing up these reports on collective farming and crops and other domestic things, you occasionally gave an ear and an eye to security for the German forces, didn't you?
A. Yes. That is when I already said in my direct examination when I used my commando to fight partisans the way the army ordered it.
That is when my commando worried about security measures.
Q. You told us yesterday , and it was very interesting, that you were studying the collective farming plan. Did you intend to import that into Germany, that plan?
A. No, I did not have that intention, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You may continue, Mr. Ferencz. BY DR. FERENCZ:
Q. Was there anybody in your commando who was concerned with the Jewish question?
A. During the time I was there the Jewish question was not treated in the sense in which you mean it.
Q. Was it so treated before you arrived.
A. Dr. Blume already described this, that on the order of Nebe he had some Jews executed in one case.
Q. Then your unit was actively engaged in carryingout the Fuehrer order before you arrived. Did you rescind that order?
A. No I did not revoke the order, I already said that.
Q. And your men just stopped being concerned all by themselves?
A. The men carried out the order which was given to them continously by fighting partisans.
Q. I am talking now about the Jewish question. You told us that they were carrying out the extermination of Jews before you arrived and that you did not rescind the order, then why did they stop?
A. Under Dr. Blume they did not carry the order out either, if he had not expressly received the order from Nebe in the cases cited.
Q. But they did carry it out, you told us they did, and Blume told us they did.
A. He said that in the one case he had ordered it-one or two cases he had ordered it
Q. I am asking you why did you men who were engaged in exterminating the Jews before you arrived stop carrying out an order given to them by Nebe, by Hitler, or anybody else?
A. For a lengthy time, by order of the army, their job was to fight the partisans in this area. This was the first question which occupied them continually. The documents show this.
Q. What orders did you give to this commando which was under your command?
A. I did not give any orders in detail but the orders were given for the partisan warfare from the reports, from the conference with the army via the liaison officer and the missions which were then carried out against the partisans.
Q. You said the army gave those orders. I am asking you what orders you gave as the commanding officer who was there supposedly to be giving orders?
A. The commando was divided into detachments, and I can't remember this case, but if the army tells me on such and such a day an extensive action is to be carried out in the area of Demidov and that the special Commando 7A is to furnish so and so many men for interrogation purposes, then I passed this order on to my subordinate officers or I went to the G-2.
Q. Pardon me, Steimle, I am asking you specifically, not what you would have done, but what orders you actually did give.
A. I, for instance, gave the order that the commando in such and such a strength was to advance to Wyazma with such and such a tank unit.
Q. Did you know the purpose of this advance?
A. Yes. I gave the order and I told the army the reasons, to join the troops there and to safeguard the documentary material there, and to await the arrival of the rest of the commando there.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Ferencz, would you mind breaking at this moment for the afternoon recess. The Tribunal might indicate at this time because it never occurred to us to say it before, and this is without any reflection of any kind on the defense counsel or prosecution counsel, that when any witness isunder cross-examination and a recess intervenes that that witness may not talk with counsel.
Of course, that same rule applies to prosecution witnesses.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. ULMER (ATTORNEY FOR THE DEFENDANT DR. SIX): Your Honor, I am about to submit my document books and I would like to have them finished over the weekend. I would like to be able to talk to my client for one afternoon. Therefore, I would like to ask the Tribunal to excuse him from court tomorrow afternoon.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Six will be excused from attendance in court tomorrow afternoon that he may confer with his attorney.
DR. ERICH M. MAYER (ATTORNEY FOR THE DEFENDANT BRAUNE): Your Honor, I should like the Defendant Braune to be excused tomorrow afternoon in order to be able to prepare his examination on the witness stand.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Braune will be excused from attendance in court tomorrow afternoon in order to prepare himself for testifying in court.
DR. MAYER: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
Q. (By Mr. Ferencz): Steimle, you have been telling us about all the things you didn't do. You have seen the documents showing that 500 people were killed by your Kommando during only a part of the time that you were in command. Would you please explain in chronological order the executions which you know took place by the units under your command, giving us how many people were killed, when they were killed, where they were killed, and why they were killed.
A. I can only mention, with the aid of the documents, those events which I remember. They are shootings, the figures of which I do not remember, which took place in Welisch. They were shootings of partisans. These executions were connected with orders of the staff of the 9th Army, or the G-2, Counter-Intelligence Officer, or by order of the competent local commander.
Q. When was that?
A. During the months ofSeptember and October.
Q. How many people were killed?
A. I do not remember details. I can only according to the documents repeat the figures contained in the documents, I mean, as far as the territory of Welisch is concerned. It must have been about 200 to 250 people.
Q. Continue please. What is the next execution that you remember?
A. It is not an individual execution, but there are a number of assignments, and sentences; in connection with these assignments other executions were carried out. In the territory around Velikki Luki, I do not know how many executions were carried out. Furthermore, I know about executions which I ordered myself, partly, in Kalinin, during the time that I was present there.
Q. Now, one at a time; back in Velikki Luki, what type of people were killed? Were they also partisans?
A. Without the slightest doubt they were Communist functionaries, active either as partisans or working as Communists illegally. Furthermore, the event mentioned in the reports, this event of juveniles -
Q. And when was that?
A. That, according to the Report, must have been in September.
THE PRESIDENT: What is meant by a Communist working or someone working as a Communist illegally?
THE WITNESS: By this I mean a man carrying out Communist Party works by collecting circles in order to raise a resistence movement against the occupying power. This offense was prohibited through a decree by the occupying power. The Communist Party was dissolved and its illegal continuance was punishable, but I have already said that the Communist functionaries were under duty to resist with all means at their disposal and this resistance was expressed in partisan fighting and sabotage.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, then, it was considered that a man belonging to the Communist Party should be regarded as an enemy and as a partisan?
THE WITNESS: No. No, Your Honor. Only when he continued his activities in the sense of the order by resisting behind the lines. In that case it was an offense against this decree.
THE PRESIDENT: Then it wasn't because he was a Communist that he was executed; it was because he was resisting?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Ferencz) And approximately how many people would you say were killed in September in Velikki Luki?
A. That I cannot say. I have no idea.
Q. Was it more than 100? Was it less than 100?
A. I don't know. I think it must have been less than 100.
Q. Well, you say now that you know that in September you shot people in Velikki Luki and you have no idea of how many people it was. You just remember shooting people.
A. I was only in Velikki Luki once or at the most twice.
Q. And when was the action in Kalinin which you personally ordered?
A. I did not carry out any operations there in Kalinin. I was in Kalinin from the 7th of November until the 7th of December with interruptions and during this time, if I was present, I received the reports, that is, the minutes of interrogations and I confirmed or changed the sentences which were suggested in these reports. There might have been five or there might have been 15 or even 20 shootings.
Q. What type of people were they who were shot in Kalinin?
A. I remember one case in which an active spy, a female spy, was shot where Wehrmacht troops were active in the town and these small Russian groups, who had the order to carry out terror actions against part of the Wehrmacht and so on, threw grenades at the local kommandatura.
Q. Now are these three actions or those three locations the onlyplaces where units under your command executed people?
A. Those three places? In Rzhev there was also a kommando.
Q. Did the kommando in Rzhev carry out any executions?
A. I don't remember, but I assume that also there were executions carried out.
Q. In other words, you assume that one kommando carried out executions in Rzhev too. Do you have any idea when that was?
A. I must assume that it was so. It could only have been in November, or, perhaps, it could have been in December after I had left.
Q. I am only interested in while you were there. And how many people do you think were killed by your Kommando in Rzhev in November?
A. I don't remember the number, because I wasn't informed about details. Any large scale shootings were not carried out in Rzhev. That depended on the resistence which was carried out in this area.
Q. And in Rzhev too you just shot partisans, is that correct?
A. We shot those who resisted or who carried on resistance in any form whatsoever, any form of resistance against German Wehrmacht units.
Q. And is there any other location where units under your command either in Einsatzkommando 7a or 4a carried out executions?
A. I already pointed out this morning that in Kursk executions were carried out.
Q. And when was that?
A. That could have been in October or November 1942.
Q. And about how many people were killed there?
A. I don't know. Individual cases were dealt with which I don remember. How many there were, however, I do not know.
Q. What do you estimate? Was it more than 100? Was it less than 100?
A. My estimate could be wrong, because I have no idea concerning these executions in Kursk.
Q. Are executions such an ordinary thing with you that you remember where they took place and when they took place, but you do not know or can't even estimate how many people were killed?
A. I did not investigate these cases, the individual cases. I only assumed it in some individual cases which came to my command, but if I tell you that there were 20 cases, I might be wrong, just as wrong as if I said there might have been 30. In any case, not many executions were carried out in these kommandos. It only depended on what cases of resistance came up or what attempts had been made on Wehrmacht units; the number of shootings depended on this.
Q. And there again you just shot persons who resisted, is that correct?
A. Yes. Resistance in the form I mentioned.
Q. Now are there any other places that you can remember where units under your command carried out executions?
A. I mentioned this morning that when we marched towards Stalingrad we shot and destroyed a partisan advance group.
Q. Where was that?
A. That was in Kallatsch-Nichnichevskaya.
Q. And when was that?
A. That must have been in September, 1942, during the march towards Stalingrad.
Q. And about how many people were killed there?
A. There were killed in combat a small group of 6 to 8 people.
Q. And again they were persons who resisted?
A. Certainly.
Q. Are there any other places you remember where units under your command executed people?
A. No.
Q. In other words, executions were carried out by units under your command in Welisch, Velikki Luki, Kalinin, Rzhev, Kursk, towards Stalingrad, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And in all you estimate about 300 people were killed in 400 people were killed?
A. I spoke of my first kommando and I said that the number mentioned in the documents may have amounted to 500 and that these figures to a large extent were due to actiona -
Q. Just answer my question.
A. May I ask that the question be repeated?
Q. I was just looking at the figures you just gave me. It was about 300 to 400 people that were killed, is that correct?
6 Nov 1947_A_MSD_22_1_Biolsi (Hildesheimer) hundred, of the Special Kommando 7-a, if all those are included who were shot in connection with units of the Wehrmacht or other such individual actions. order? order them. If investigation results would be submitted to me I would confirm or modify them. How many there are, I do Not know. The figure can't be very high -- but I don't think this is the question in this case. I did confirm judgments and sentences after I had the chance to examine them. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Let's get this clear, now. Did you ever order an execution?
Q How many did you order?
Q Was the number so many that you can't recall?
Q Then why don't you remember? Is the matter of an execution a pretty serious business?
Q Please answer the question. Is the matter of an execution a very serious business?
Q Is the matter of snuffing out the lives of people serious?
Q All right. Now, you say you don't remember the number. And it isn't because the number was so great. You exclude that. a grim and serious business. Why, then, wouldn't you remember how?
6 November 1947_A_MSD_22_2_Biolsi (Hildesheimer) many executions you ordered? Honor, or the number of judges' sentences examined by myself.
Q We asked you if you ever ordered an execution. You finally said yes. do so. I can't say with certainty that I ordered 20 or 25. In the case of Kalinin, for instance, I can give the exact number - perhaps, because approximately I ordered about 5 or 10 executions there.
Q When were you apprehended after the war?
Q When?
Q You have been two years awaiting this trial. That's right, isn't it? You have been reading from your statement, already prepared. Did it not occur to you in those two years' time, or at least during the last month or twoo after you had actually received the indictment, that a question would be put to you as to the number of executions, and did you not try to recall the exact number? think about it. I can have examined and confirmed 20 to 25 judgments.
Q All right. Then you ordered 25 exectuions...not less than 20, nor more than 25. Is that correct?
A I cannot say that exclusively, your Honor; it must have been approximately this number, at least, of orders given by me personally... orders given for execution. All other cases-which you can square with your conscience, and your oath to tell the 6 Nov 1947_A_MSD_22_3_Biolsi (Hildesheimer) the exact number -- the number must be between 15 and 25, possibly 30, cases which I personally investigated; investigations which led to an order of execution.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Ferencz, the witness has stated that the number of executions was not less than 15 nor more than 30. Proceed from that point. BY MR. FERENCA:
Q You told us where executions were carried out. I would like you to explain now where it was that you ordered these 15 to 30 executions. You have stated that 5 to 10 were ordered in Kalinin. Where did you order the others? Velikkiluki.
Q How many there?
A I don't remember. It might have been 4 or 5 cases submitted to me for investigation. Furthermore, most cases were submitted to me during my stay in Kursk. It might have been another 10 to 15.
Q Ten to fifteen in Kursk. Any Welisch?
A No, I can't remember at the moment, but there might have been a few cases there for my decision.
Q Any in Rzhev?
Q Any towards Stalingrad?
A No. The mentioned group was shot in combat, but not after an investigation.
Q Any in Tshernishowskaya?
Q Didn't you once state in interrogation that a group of people were killed under your command in Tschernishowskaya?
A I spoke of the partisan kommando... this partisan advance kommando, kommando head, was near Kallatsch or in Mishnitz-Shirskaja, not in Tschernishewskaya.
6 November 1947_A_MSD_22_4_Biolsi (Hildesheimer)
Q Now, what did you say about Tschernishewskaya? I have here an interrogation where you said that a group of partisans were killed there. Do you now change your statement concerning that?
A Either the statement was mistakenly concluded... I never had the possibility to speak of Tschernishewskaya. It must have been a mistake if I did. This partisan group was in the neighborhood of NishnizShirskaja or Kallatsch. Czernitschewkera -- C-z-e-r-n-i-t-s-c-h-e-w-k-e-i-a?
Q You think they made that up?
A I don't think so. If so, I must have made a mistake in that case. your answer. You said that a group of from seven to five people wanted to form a partisan group, were found, and itwas discovered through a girl in the village who gave you the information about it, and you said that some of the men were shot in combat, and some of them were than "shot by us", and that "bei diesen Erchiessungen war ich dabei" -- which means "by this execution I was there" -- do you remember that?
A You mean the execution of the partisan heads?
Q You just said you don't remember anything about shootings in Tschernishewskaya, it wasn't in Tschernishewskaya. You are saying that the place is wrong... that the stenographer -
A It was on the road between Nishnitz Shirskaja and Kalatch; that is, on the route to Stalingrad. I do not say that the event as it is here actually took place. were present? Let me give you your interrogation, you read it, and then please explain it to the Court. Please the whole answer first, slowly and carefully, and then you may explain it in any way you see fit.
6 November 1947_A_MSD_22_5_Biolsi (Hildesheimer) tioned, here I have nothing to say about executions except about a very small Einsatz assignment which was carried on in the territory of Tschernishewskaya," where a group of five to seven people were raided who were about to form a partisan group. Through treason on the part of a girl--"
THE PRESIDENT: Is the defendant reading, or commenting? We don't know.
MR. FERENCA: He is reading, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, he is reading. Very well.
A (witness continuing) "...given away by a girl. The village was found out. A few of the men were shot in combat, and a few were shot afterwards. I was present at this execution." statement in an interrogation, when now you tell us it is not true? is the same event about which I made statements in my direct examination, and this afternoon. It is a matter of raiding a partisan advance head. It was in the territory of Nishnits-Shirskaja and Kallatsch, but not in Tschernishewskaya.
Q Now where is this place in which you say it took place? You listed six places where executions took place. But you did not list Nishnits-Shirskaja or Tshernishewskaya. Now..... There was a partisan advance head which was destroyed, and these men were shot in combat.
Q Was that near Welisch?
Q Was that near Welikiki Luki?
Q Was that in Kalinin?
6 November 1947_A_MSD_22_6_Biolsi (Hildesheimer)
Q Was that in Rzhev?
Q Was that in Kursk?
Q Was that on the way to Stalingrad? executions on the way to Stalingrad. Do you now change your story? that on the way to Stalingrad there was no active resistance of any kind except in one case where, by treason of a woman, we succeeded in raiding one partisan group and we shot them in combat. of a kommando... I myself did not reach the location where the fighting took place because by accident we came across another group at this partisan place.
Q Now, let's get your story straight. How many groups did you kill there? us.
actually tried to fight us.
Q. How many were killed without combat?
A. Those were the ones who were shot after an interrogation.
Q. Now there were two groups. One group was killed in combat, and one group killed after an interrogation, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You listed executions in both cases?
A. The first one was not executions.
Q. You listed executions in the second place?
A. Yes.
Q. You just told me when I asked you if you ordered any executions around Stalingrad, and you said, no, and now you told us, yes. Now which one is true?
A. I said just now that those who were taken prisoners, there were three girls among them, were shot after having been interrogated, and that had been ordered by myself.
Q. I went through the list of places and I asked you how many were killed in Welesch and you said, one or two. I asked you how many in Uelikky Luki and you said four or five. I asked you how many in Kalinin and you said five to ten. I asked how many in Welisch and you said, none. I asked how many in Kursk and you said from ten or fifteen. I asked you how many towards Stalingrad, and you said none. Now I ask you again how many were killed in the area towards Stalingrad under your command?
A. Partisan group of 4-6 men, and the three girls belonging to this group.
Q. In other words, 4-6 men plus the three girls, that is about nine people -- seven or nine people; you are now telling me that seven to nine people were killed by your order in that vicinity towards Stalingrad, is that correct?
A. No, the first group I said were actually killed in combat.
Q. How many were killed under your command not in combat?
A. Three.
Q. Why did you say none when I asked you that question the first time?
A. I had not remembered the details of this event at the time.
Q. In other words--
A. I have no reason to keep it back, as it was absolutely a justifiable shooting.
Q. You say that you didn't reveal it the first time because you had forgotten about it, but it was absolutely justifiable. You said in your interrogation you have just read, that these men were shot because they were about to form a partisan group. You regard that as absolutely justifiable?
A. Yes, they were not killed abter being made prisoners and then shot, but they were in a little forest which was encircled, and when my kommando arrived, or at least part of my kommando, there was fighting, and the men did not give up but they threw grenades and fired at us, and because of this fighting they were killed.
Q. You just said after an investigation, the interrogations you rodered they had to be shot. Did you interrogate them while they were throwing grenades? later on.
Q. You shot the three girls later on after an interrogation?
A. They were shot after an interrogation.
Q. After they formed a partisan group, is that correct?
A. They were participants in a partisan group, yes.
Q. You said they were about to form a partisan group, and that is why they were shot?
A. Yes.
Q. Now you say the three girls who were about to form a partisan correct?
A. Yes, that is the fact of the case as true out in the eximation.
Q. How long did the trial last of these three girls who were about to form a partisan group?
A. The three girls were first in protective custody, and then
Q. How long did the whole trial last?
A. I don't remember but it could have gone on for about eight
Q. Is that eight days for each girl, or eight days for all three girls?
A. The examination and investigation of the whole case took a
Q. What were you doing during those eight days; were you pre sent all the time supervising this?
A. No.
Q. When did you get any information on the execution?
A. This event was reported to me. I read the whole minutes
Q. You studied it all very carefully?
A. Yes, I read it all.
Q. You forgot all about it when I asked you a few minutes ago, but now you remember all the details?
Q. Tell me, what was the charge against these girls who were trying to form a partisan group to resist an aggressive invader?
What was the crime these girls committed?
A. They were members of an illegal organization , and they were in contact with another group which was in possession of arms.
The girls were not only a part of a formal company, but they were about to build up an information sabotage service, and also the girl who gave them away was a girl who knew about all the preparations for such things.