DR. LUMMERT: Your Honor, I just have two or three
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed, Dr. Lummert.
BY DR. LUMMERT: Witness, may I ask, is it correct that women and children?
officer of EK-IX which was active in the area in your rear?
anything about the defendant Blume at that time?
A Yes, as the leader of the kommando behind Blume's,
Q Then I have one final question. In your first Blume as soft and bureaucratic.
What do you mean by this expression "soft"?the "soft" type, and that for this reason he was reticent
Q Was this expression "soft" to mean that the defendant Blume refrained from the executions?
men were made. I also had the impression that he was very careful about caring for his men.
Q You mean that he treated them well?
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me, I did not quite catch that last answer of the witness. Will you repeat it, please. The interpreter can repeat it?
THE INTERPRETER: The witness was asked whether he meant that Blume treated his men well, and he said, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that what you mean by being "soft" because he treated his men well? characteristic.
DR. LUMMERT: Your Honor, I have no further question.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY MR. FERENCZ:
Q Steimle, didn't the men in Sonderkommando VII-A also tell you that Blume was murdering Jews before you arrived? that the defendant Radetzky came to you while you were the commanding officer of Sonderkommando IV-A and tried to get out of Sonderkommando IV-A, is that correct?
Q Why did he want to got out of your kommando? and when his job as liaison officer to the Army had become unnecessary.
didn't like the activity that was taking place there? completely understandable that he wanted to get away. what took place? combat troop unit. Furthermore, he no longer had the job of liaison officer. dissatisfied with the type of activity that was taking place in Sonderkommando IV-A?
A During the time he was in my kommando he didn't express his opinion of that activity. VII-A?
A I can not give the exact date for that. At least he was not present when I took over kommando.
Q Didn't you ask the men in your kommando, where is your leader, or when did he leave? he left, but today I no longer know what the period of time was between his departure and my arrival.
Q You say today you do not know. Isn't it a fact that you know, or at least you expressed an opinion on it not long ago in the interrogation? or even longer.
Q You said that in your interrogations, and why don't you say it now. You say now, you don't know?
A I just said that at that time I didn't have a definite idea which I can give about the period which elapsed between his departure and my arrival.
eight or ten days, didn't you?
A I can not remember at the moment? the defendant Naumann? Smolensk.
Q When was that?
A I can not give you the exact date. It was before he visited me, and it was in the month of November. and I can count back from this visit. It may be about eight or ten days between our meeting in Smolensk and his visit to me in Kalinin. He was in Kalinin either in late November, or in the first days of December, it can by only that he met me about the 20th or 25th of November, or two or three days earlier. I can not give you the exact date.
Q Isn't it true that in the interrogations you said that you met Naumann about the middle of November? because, for instance, I included the 20th November in this period of time, namely, the middle of November. with any more exactness as to the date, and you think it was towards the end of November, as Naumann stated in his examination? beginning of December he had visited me, and our meeting was about eight to ten days before this visit.
you discussed the extermination of the Jews with him? confirmed to me once more that the order provide for the execution of all Jew, and that we could not her around this order, and, I can remember that he said he had spent sleepless nights over this order.
Q. In other words he told you and passed on to you as his subordinate the Fuehrer Order, is that correct?
A. He again confirmed to me this Fuehrer Order which I already knew.
Q. He passed it on to you then as your superior officer? If he said that here is a Fuehrer Order to kill all the Jews didn't he then pass on the order to you?
A. The Fuehrer Order existed for me because I had received it from Nebe, and from my experience in my kommando. This conference was merely a renewed confirmation that the order read that way.
Q. You mean that you didn't raise the question with him in order to try to get away from carrying out that order. You just raised it in a conversational way about killing Jews in there and anything he said was on a purely friendly personal basis, is that what you are trying to say?
A. The conference dealt with the misgivings which I and Nebe expressed about this. You can see this form the fact that he said he had spent sleepless nights about it; the order was of the type that one had to have misgivings about it.
Q. Then isn't it true that what happened is that you said, here we have this Fuehrer Order to kill defenseless people, and Naumann replied yes, I spent many sleepless nights over it, but it's a Fuehrer Order, and we have to carry it out. Didn't he then pass on the order to you in that sense at least?
A. If I can say it in one word, he confirmed it to me that it had to be carried out.
Q. You heard the defendant Naumann testify that he never discussed the killings of Jews with you, didn't you?
A. I didn't hear this in that form.
Q. In what form did you hear it?
A. I thought that he said that he talked with his officers about it.
Q. When I questioned him on whether he had passed on the order to you he denied it. What have you got to say in that connection?
A. He didn't pass on the order in that sense, because I already knew it, but he confirmed it to me once more, because it came from Berlin, and he had received it from Heydrich as he told me.
Q. Then he clearly at least implied that you too were to carry out that order?
A. That was clear that I had to carry it out.
Q. When did you become a member of the regular SS?
A. I only was a member of the SS within the SD in 1936.
Q. Isn't it true that in an interrogation on 7 July, you were asked if you were a regular member of the SS and SD, and at that time you answered, yes?
A. I was a member of the SS as far as the SD was an SS unit.
Q. Will you answer my question, please? I am asking you whether you were asked on 7 July whether you were a regular SS and SD member, and you answered, yes. Now is that correct?
A. Yes, I am. Yes, I am.
Q. And when did you become a member of Amt-VII, which was declared to be a criminal organization by the IMT?
A. Did I understand you correctly, Office-VII?
Q. Amts-VI?
A. Amts-VI. I joined Office VI by an order of 8 February 1943.
Q. Why were you hiding under an assumed name as a farmer after the end of the war?
A. I didn't hide under an assumed name, but the passport which I had been using since '43 as an intelligence officer I continued to use in order to look after my family in the French Zone, and as long as I could not get there I registered myself with the police under that name, together with two other comrades who were department chiefs in Office VI and registered under their correct names, so there was no question of hiding.
I had no civilian papers in my name of Steimle but before my imprisonment I tried by all means to find out about the fate of my wife and children, and I wanted this information because shortly before the end of the war I heard through a rumor that my wife and my children had been shot during the advance of the French troops, but this was not true. Then when I got the pass, I agreed with my two comrades that after we had visited our families, we would report to the American authorities as soon as possible and we would register with them as members of Office-VI. When I was interrogated I gave my entire personal data without being asked and to the surprise of the interrogating officer.
Q. What name were you using when you were working as a farmer?
A. The name of Bulsch, which I already used in my office.
Q. What were the dates when you were in command of Sonderkommando-VII-A?
A. 6th or 7th of September 1941, until my furlough on 10th December 1941.
Q. You have seen the documents, have you not, which list you as commanding officer through 13 February 1942. Have you seen those?
A. Yes.
Q. You say that is a mistake, the document are wrong?
A. I explained this in my direct examination that during my furlough I asked for my transfer, and I submitted a certificate by a dentist, and, therefore, the formal transfer was possibly delayed sometime.
Q. Who made the reports for you to Einsatzgruppe-B Headquarters, or did you make them yourself?
A. No, they were made by the commanding officers of the subkommandos.
Q. You mean there was no report sent from Sonderkommando VII-A as a unit to Einsatzgruppe-B?
A. Certainly, the various individual reports were compiled and sent to the Einsatzgruppe.
Q. Who compiled them?
A. The reports were not compiled but reports were sent on together, so far as I remember.
Q. Did you read them?
A. Certainly, I read those reports so far as I was present.
Q. And were the reports that were made in Einsatzgruppe-B the consolidation of reports from the Sonderkommandos within the Einsatzgruppe-B?
A. I didn't get the question.
Q. You say you sent reports to Einsatzgruppe-B. Isn't it true that Einsatzgruppe-B sent those same reports onto Berlin?
A. I assume that Einsatzgruppe-B used these reports in making out its own reports.
Q. Do you know that the commanding officer of Einsatzgruppe-B exaggerated these reports when he sent them to Berlin?
A. At my time I didn't hear anything about this.
Q. When did you first learn of the functions of Sonderkommando VII-A?
A. What do you mean by functions? Do you mean missions?
Q. I mean, missions?
A. When I was informed about it by Nebe in Smolensk.
Q. When was that?
A. In September 1941.
Q. What did he tell you was the mission of this Sonderkommando that you were about to take over?
A. I explained this in my direct examination. He told me about the mission against Communist resistance movements and their helpers, the Jews. That is what he spoke about, and he also spoke about the making out of reports, and he also mentioned that important documents were to be collected.
Q. He told you then that at least part of your mission was to kill all the Jews and Communist leaders, is that correct?
A. He told that the active Communist forces and their helpers, Jews, are to be killed. At that conference I understood it to mean that resisting forces, whether they be Communist or Jews, are to be shot.
Q. In other words, in September you didn't know that all Jews were to be killed, but you thought only those who actively resisted were to be killed, is that correct?
A. I believed this until I heard of the complete order from Foltis, and then I also understood what Nebe meant.
Q. What did Foltis tell you?
A. I told that in my direct examination. He said that during the advance various adult and able-bodied Jews had been shot; that the kommando had not shot women and the children, and he spoke of the Fuehrer Order.
Q. You say that he spoke of the Fuehrer Order. Do you mean that he told you that there was an order that was issued by Hitler passed on through the channels that all Jews were to executed?
A. I had heard of the Fuehrer Order as such from Nebe; the extent of the Fuehrer Order was to be gathered clearly from Foltis statement.
Q. In other words, Nebe first mentioned the Fuehrer Order, but didn't go into told you that the order meant to kill women and children just because they were Jews, is that correct?
A. In this sense, yes, that is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Ferencz, I would like to get the chronology of these various discussions of the Fuehrer Order. The defendant spoke with Naumann, he spoke to Nebe, he spoke with Foltis. Let's get the order of it and what he ascertained at each discussion about the Fuehrer 6 November 1947_A_MSD_16_1_Hoxsie (Lea) September 1941 with Nebe - when Nebe mentioned it but didn't go into details, is that correct?
Q You said you discussed it with Foltes after that. When was that?
Q When was that?
Q you would say it was about the 10th September? is that correct? that it was a general execution order for Jews, at any rate I was able to see from Foltes' statement what Nebe had actually meant. had passed on to you an order to execute all the Jews? execute the Jews?
Q And you didn't go into great detail there either. You expressed your regret at having such an order. Naumann expressed his regret at having such an order, but there was nothing that anyone could do. Naumann said, "It is a Fuehrer Order, and that is all there is to it." is that correct? a matter of an order. Jews, that such an order existed and that it had been decreed.
Q Didn't you tell Naumann at that time that you had managed to 6 November 1947_A_MSD_16_2_Hoxsie (Lea) evade the order?
You noted his regret at having to carry it out.
A I didn't get the question; I didn't get the first part of the question. nights over it. Didn't you tell him that you had managed to evade the carrying out of this order?
A No, I didn't tell him that. by having to carry out this order? that you had in fact carried out the order?
Q And he didn't ask you any questions whether you had or whether you had not carried out the order?
Q And he didn't ask you any questions whether you had or whether you had not carried out the order?
A I don't think that he asked me that. at any time when you discussed this order with your superior officers, did you express any dissatisfaction with the order? soldier without questioning it in any way, without indicating any disapproval?
A I expressed my misgivings to Naumann. Otherwise I did nothing.
6 November 1947_A_MSD_16_3_Hoxsie (Lea)
Q What did you say to Naumann?
Q You say you expressed your misgivings. What do you mean by that?
Q Did you say to him "I can't carry out this order; it is too difficult or it is too inhumane?" Naumann, but I don't know the details any more. I merely know the one thing, that the conversation dealt with these misgivings. Otherwise Naumann would not have said that he had spent sleepless nights about it, and I remember definitely that he said that. order? Jewish problem, I asked Naumann for a furlough.
Q I didn't quite understand your answer. You say that not in connection with the Jewish problem, you asked for a furlough. Do you mean to say that you did not try to get out of carrying out this order, at least insofar as the Jews were concerned? because I wanted to evade the order.
Q Do you remember why you wanted a furlough?
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment please. We understand the witness to say that he talked with Naumann about a furlough but this had nothing to do with the order. Did you say that just one minute ago?
THE WITNESS: I said that in connection with this discussion I asked for a furlough.
THE PRESIDENT: And then you added, "but had nothing to do with the order." Did you say that a minute ago?
THE WITNESS: No, I didn't add that, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Miss Reporter, can you locate in your shorthand notes the answer of the defendant to a question by Mr. Ferencz about the 6 November 1947_A_MSD_16_4_Hoxsie Lea) furlough?
All right, let's have it in German then. German or English.
German Reporter: I asked him in this connection or during that conversation to give me a furlough because I wanted to evade the order.
THE PRESIDENT: But he just said, a minute before, do you have that? Well, just look for it. witness which you read to us?
The record was read by the reporter as follows: "A. During this conversation, but not in connection with the Jewish problem, I asked for a furlough from Naumann.") BY THE PRESIDENT: you asked for a furlough but it had nothing to do with the Jewish question. In the last question put to you by Mr. Ferencz you have given us a modification of that. Now, do you stand on what you said originally, did you tell us the truth when you said that in asking the furlough it had nothing to do with the Jewish order?
Jewish question that I did not say, as a result of a conversation about the Jewish question, I didn't say at that moment, "I want to go on furlough." but this had nothing to do with the Jewish order. Now, that is the answer you gave us and it is on the record. Do you now want to change that, and do you tell us that you did not mean what you very specifically stated in so many words.
Q Please answer the question directly. Do you want to change that very specific answer?
Q Did you say that; is the record correct?
6 November 1947_A_MSD_16_5_Hoxsie (Lea) that you mean something else, is that what we are to comprehend? clear words, is that correct?
A These clear words don't express what I wanted to say.
Q Very well. Then you used language which did not express your thought?
Q Very well. Now give us language which expresses your thought. me once more that for any length of time it was not possible to avoid the execution of the Jewish order. My request for a furlough was conditioned by that. That is what I wanted to say. And these two things, the discussion about the Jewish question and my request for furlough, took place during the same conference. furlough it did have to do with the Jewish order?
Q. Therefore, it is just the direct contradiction to what you said just a few minute ago?
A. I wanted to say before that when I asked Naumann for a furlough, I did not give the Jewish question as a reason for the furlough.
Q. We, therefore, understand that you modify and alter your original answer, that when you said that you asked for a furlough but it had nothing to do with the Jewish order, what you really meant to tell the Tribunal was that when you asked for the furlough you did not tell Naumann that you wanted it to evade the Jewish order, but that is the reason you had in your mind. Is that what we are to comprehend?
A. Yes, your Honor. That is right.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, proceed. BY MR. FERECZ:
Q. In other words, you were deliberately trying to evade your duties as a soldier?
A. I wanted to avoid it. This special duty I wanted to avoid.
Q. Now, you have noticed the documents which were introduced against you. Particularly you have noticed one of 13 September showing that 1011 people were killed by Sonderkommando 7a. You have noticed one of 14 November showing that 1517 persons were killed by Sonderkommando 7a. Now, you were in command of that unit during that period, weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And the reports show that more than 500 people were liquidated by you kommando during at least part of the time of your command, is that correct?
A. The reports show this, but they also show that this concerns executions because of partisan activity, and that these fights were not only carried out by my kommando but in 80 percent of the cases in cooperation with Army units. When two divisions are named, then the twenty-five men who participated cannot be the decisive factor, but they were merely auxiliary means. The figure appears in my kommando's report Court,II Case 9 but it also probably appears in every report of every Army unit that participated, and that is the same way with all the other reports when it is mentioned which Army units participated in any particular mission.
Q. You say then, that although these reports show that 500 people were killed by your kommando during the time of your command, you had assistance in this job from the Wehrmacht, is that correct?
A. My kommando was used to support the Army, not that I called in the Army to support me.
Q. Do you say that all 500 of these people who were killed were partisans?
A. At any rate, as far as I know it myself, and as far as I can see in the document, yes.
Q. What happened to the Jews in your area?
A. Nothing than what, for example, happened in Rshev where a Jewish Council was installed, as I can see from the document.
Q. What do you remember personally as having happened to the Jews in the area under your command?
A. I know that even before my arrival my kommando had installed a Jewish council in Welisch and I can see from the documents that a ghetto was installed there too. I know that in Rshev a Jewish council was installed and probably the Jews were obliged to wear the Jewish insignia. The same probably was the case in Kalinin.
Q. What did you do as the commanding officer as concerns the Jewish question?
A. I didn't do anything in this respect.
Q. You didn't even have the Jews arrested, is that correct?
A. I had no Jews arrested.
Q. Did you know that there were Jews in your area?
A. In Welisch where the Jews were already in the ghetto I knew it, and Rshev and Kalinin I undoubtedly that there were a few Jews in these towns.
Q. And you knew that Hitler had ordered the Jews to be exterminated yet you did nothing to the Jews who were under control, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Then you violated an order from Hitler, did you not?
A. I didn't carry the order out immediately after it became known to me.
Q. Did you carry it out later?
A. No, later I wasn't there any more.
Q. Then you violated an order of Hitler inasmuch as he had ordered the Jews to be executed and you had Jews in you area and you did not execute them, isn't that correct?
A. The order did not say at what time the Jews would have to be executed.
Q. Are you trying to say now that the Hitler order, as you understood it, meant that the Jews were to be given special care of some kind and saved for the future to be executed?
A. No, the order did not have that content, but in its execution it could be modified for a certain time if one, for example, was busy, as my kommando was, with fighting partisans.
Q. Didn't you know that the order said specifically that all Jews were to be killed?
A. Yes, I heard that this order referred to all Jews?
Q. And as a soldier when you get an order to kill all Jews, do you interpret that as meaning to save them for the future, for somebody else?
A. One can have two or three orders at the same time -
Q. I ask you what you did, how do you interpret that as a soldier?
A. I relegated the order because I had a more important order for my area, namely, the security against partisans.
Q. What do you mean, you relegated the order?
A. I didn't carry it out at that time.
Q. Then weren't you violating an order from your superior officer?
A. I simply tried to and did pigeon-hole the order, and if you consider this a violation of the order one can consider it that way.
Q. Nebe told you Vyasma on the 10th of October that you had better start shooting women and children too, did he not?
A. He told me that in Smolensk.
Q. Then he told you in Smolensk that you had to shoot women and children too. Now, did you obey that order to shoot Jewish women and children as well?
A. He didn't tell me that I had to show him execution reports about that two of five days later.
Q. I am asking you, did you obey that order from Nebe who was your superior officer, to execute Jewish women and children?
A. No, I did not obey this order.
Q. Then twice you have violated orders from your superiors. Were you ever court martialed for violating your orders?
A. No, but I always had proof that the security measures were urgent in my area because of conditions there.
Q. So that you were, as a Sonderkommando leader, able to avoid carrying out the Fuehrer Order without any action being taken against you in my form, is that correct?
A. I could make the attempt temporarily to evade this order because of the conditions, and the special conditions were that in the first four weeks my kommando was kept busy by the acute attacks of the partisans, that in the third period when I was in Kalinin one always had the excuse that under the bombardment of Russian artillery one could not undertake large-scale Jewish operations. These were the possibilities which remained open to me.
Q. Then you succeeded in violating the orders of your superior officers without any evil consequences to yourself, is that correct?
A. Every Einsatzgruppe leader who knew the activity of my commando would certainly have recognized that the missions accomplished could be justified.
Q. Will you please answer the question--the questions was you succeeded in violating the orders of your superior officer without any evil consequences to yourself, now, is that correct?
A. I evaded it without any consequences, yes.
Q. Now, do you know that all the other commando leaders and Einsatzgruppe leaders had partisans in their zones, too?
A. But not to the extent as it was true in my commando area. Also in the other areas the commando leaders were in cities where there were a lot of Jews. This was not true in my area.
Q. You have told us that there were Jews in your area, that there was a ghetto full of Jews?
A. I said that in Rshew and Kalinin there were only a few Jews.
Q. Didn't you tell us that there was a ghetto?
A. I said that I read in the documents here that in Welisch there was a ghetto. I do not know how many Jews were in that ghetto because the ghetto had already been installed previously.
Q. And the first time you knew there were Jews in your area was when you read it in the documents given to you here in Nuernberg?
A. No, but I did not know that there was a ghetto in Welisch, but I knew that there were Jews.
Q. How many Jews would you estimate were in Welisch?
A. I cannot say that because I did not see the ghetto.
Q. Now, you have told us that you were the expert on SD reports and you spent all your time making these careful reports to send back to Berlin. Weren't you interested in the Jewish question, or were you just interested in the farmers?
A. I did not report on the Jewish question.
Q. Now, how is it that you as an SS Colonel experienced and used to making security reports and in possession of an order to murder all the Jews, spends his time making reports and takes no interest in the Jewish question?