THE PRESIDENT: We will recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal II is in recess until 0930 hours tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 24 April 1947 at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 24 April 1947, 0945 - 1630, Justice Robert M. Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
DR. HOFFMANN (For Defendant Scheide): May it please the Tribunal, I only want to say very few words with regard to the recessing of this Tribunal. May it please the Tribunal, today we are trying to procure an affidavit of some other document. We need at least four weeks, that is, from the time we send it out until the time it comes back to us. In part I can only send these copies after the Prosecution has presented its case, and therefore when I prepare my case, I will not be able to prepare my case thoroughly if I have not sufficient time.
It is also necessary for me to find some witnesses who are located in the various camps. To bring these witnesses here would take far too much time and would be too much trouble. If, however, I travel to them I must count upon the fact I will need at least three or four days to visit a camp, and if I have to visit two or three camps, I need at least a time limit of fourteen days in order to be able to visit all these witnesses in the camps. I therefore request that we be granted a recess of two weeks, which my colleague, Dr. Seidl, has already requested.
JOSEF ACKERMANN - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Herr Ackermann, you understand that you are still under oath to tell the truth?
A. Yes.
Q. You were committed to Buchenwald Concentration Camp in September, 1939?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you tell the Court again what the charges against you were at that time?
In the year 1939 no charges were raised against me at all, but I was only arrested and I was sent to the concentration camp without ever having been interrogated or without having been given a trial. For this reason I never found out why I was arrested in the year 1939.
Q. But you had been previously arrested in 1933 for articles you had published in England?
Yes. I had to assume that my arrest in the year 1939 was the automatic result of my previous confinement, because I was not considered politically loyal.
Q. What kind of work were you given to do in Buchenwald when you were confined there?
A. During the first few months I had to perform manual work with the pit command, and I had to work with various other detachments, and then towards the end of 1939 I was sent to work to the pathological department as clerk of the physician there.
Q. And what kind of work did you do in the pathological section as a physician's clerk?
A. With every autopsy of prisoners' bodies I had to be present, and I had to make a record there about the autopsy, and I also had to write it down.
Q. You made the post mortem reports, in other words?
A. Yes. Furthermore I also had to keep a list of the people who had died, and I had to carry out the other correspondence work of the pathological section.
Q. Who was your superior in that work?
A. I had a whole number of superiors, physicians.
Q. Can you give us the names of some of the doctors who supervised your work?
A. The first of them was an SS-Untersturmfuehrer, Dr. Gutacker. He was succeeded by Dr. Victor Lewe, Untersturmfuehrer. Then later on Obersturmfuehrer Dr. Mueller came, and later Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Blaza took over the direction of the pathological section. De. Hoven, besides his activity as a camp physician, also was in charge of the pathological section for some period of time.
THE PRESIDENT: May I interrupt just a minute to note for the record that all the defendants are present in court, including the Defendant Fanslau, this morning.
Q. (By Mr. Robbins) Is that Dr. Waldemar Hoven that you referred to?
A. Dr. Waldemar Hoven, yes. He is a defendant in the medical trial.
Q. Do you have any knowledge of the extraction of gold teeth from the bodies of the extraction of gold teeth from the bodies of the deceased inmates?
A. We had an order from the camp physician according to which the gold teeth were to be removed from all dead prisoners, and they were to be turned over to the administrative leader, Barnewald. In every case the gold was weighed. Then it was put into a bag and turned over to Hauptsturmfuehrer Barnewald, and he issued a receipt for it which I kept in my files in the pathological section.
Q. Do you know where this order that you just referred to came from?
A. I cannot tell you that because I did not see the original order at Buchenwald. Contrary to Dora, where I was also the clerk of the camp physician, where I also saw all orders, even the secret orders where I kept them in my files, in Buchenwald I only heard of these orders by way of the camp physician.
Q. Do you know where the gold was sent?
A. We turned the gold over to Barnewald, and we assumed that he turned it over to his superior agency, which would be the WVHA. However, we did not discover any more details about that.
Q. In your work as physician's clerk in the pathological section, was it also a part of your duties to compose post mortem findings on the prisoners who were shot on escape?
A. All prisoners, if they had died of a natural death or if they died by force automatically came to me. They were sent there. Usually I also received all the corpses of people who had been beaten to death in the bunker, and also people who had been shot while trying to escape. It was my task to first of all make a record as to their condition, and I had to state where the bullets entered the body and where they left it, and I had to determine the inner wounds and the causes of death.
Q. Herr Ackermann, can you give us some idea of how many prisoners were beaten to death and shot on escape per day or per week, per month?
A. It was very difficult to give a general figure because the numbers varied. There were times when as a result of the readjustment of the camp leaders, the so-called shootings while trying to escape or the other killings which took place increased enormously, and they were carried out at times. It is impossible to give any average figure, but there were days when until ten-thirty in the morning approximately twelve, thirteen, and fourteen shootings while trying to escape took place.
Q. Is it true that on some occasions that the names of the prisoners who would be shot during escape was known in the pathological section the day before they were actually shot?
A. We usually knew already on the evening before who would be shot while trying to escape the following day, and almost the entire camp knew of that, including the person concerned, because Case 4, Court II the Scharfuehrer on the day before proclaimed that in a certain way, and they would tell the man, "You will be shot tomorrow while trying to escape."
In many cases the individual prisoner was given the advice, "Go voluntarily into the chain of guards tomorrow, because your death has already been decided upon, and it is better if you die from a bullet than if you are finished off in the bunker."
Q. Do you know if the Austrian Konsul, Dr. Steidler, received such a fate?
A. The Austrian Konsul-General, Dr. Steidler, was located in my block, and every evening I had political and philosophical discussions with him. On the evening before he died he informed me that on the following day he would be shot while trying to escape, and he told me in addition it was extremely difficult for him because he was a faithful Catholic and because he condemned suicide and refuted it from the standpoint of his religion. However, Oberscharfuehrer Blank had informed him that his death had already been decided upon for the files and he was giving him the advice to run into the chain of guards voluntarily, because his death in the bunker would probably be more painful than a bullet from the guard.
A That his death was decided upon in advance is also shown by the fact that one day prior to his death his son, Dr. Steidle, Jr., who was located in the same camp and in the same block, was sent to a transport to Dachau without reason whatsoever. It was generally assumed that this was still a gesture of humanity, at least, not to let the son see in the same camp how his father was being shot.
Q And was he shot while trying to escape on the morning following your conversation with him?
A He was shot while trying to escape. That is to say, he went into the chain of guards and the guard aimed his rifle at him and shot him down. Two hours after, I had seen him for the last time; I had him on my table where I performed the autopsy, and he was dead.
THE PRESIDENT: Can we have the name of the Austrian Counsel-General spelled?
MR. ROBBINS: That is Dr. S-t-e-i-d-l-e.
THE WITNESS: His name is S-t-e-i-d-l-e.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Where were these post-mortem report sent?
A The post-mortem reports were kept in the Pathological Section in the closet which I had in my office.
Q And were copies sent to anyone?
AAt the beginning, up to seven and eight copies were typed out, and a copy was made of all cases where people had died of a death which was not natural. That was sent to the SS court at Duesseldorf. Another copy automatically went to the physician in charge, with "The Inspectorate of Concentration Camp Oranienburg, Attention Standartenfuehrer Dr. Lolling." Another copy went to the political section of the camp, and to the camp administration. The records which had accumulated annually, prepared in the book bindery shop, I kept then with me.
They must have been discovered when the camp was occupied.
In the big register of all the deaths which occurred, I also carefully listed the names of all persons who had died, Their place of birth and all the other dates in their lives were also listed. And this book also must have been found when the camp was occupied.
Q Herr Ackermann, did you have conversations with Dr. Hoven concerning the collection of skulls?
A Dr. Hoven, who was the director of the Pathological Section for a rather extended period of time, repeatedly asked us to furnish him with skulls - and not only skulls, but also skeletons. That was by order of the physician in charge of the concentration camp Oranienburg, Dr. Lolling. Frequently, he also turned over to me the correspondence from Dr. Lolling and in these letters it was stated, "I need immediately ton entire skeletons, one dozen skulls... or individual parts of a body," or, "we need some interesting bullet wounds," and pathological medicines were also requested. Every few weeks we sent to the SS Medical Academy at Graz large boxes with the pathological symptoms of diseases, of special drugs. That is to say, we sent parts of bodies which were to be exhibited to physicians who were being trained.
Q. Was Dr. Hoven a subordinate of Dr. Lolling?
A Dr. Hoven was subordinated to Dr. Lolling, however, he was not subordinated to him to a great extent, because during his vacation he acted as deputy to Dr. Lolling on many occasions. On one occasion he represented him for three or four months, and during that period of time he stayed at Oranienburg, and he took care of all the official business of Dr. Lolling. During this period of time he he communicated with me through teletype, and at that time he ordered me to carry on the correspondence with the dean of the medical faculty of the University of Freiburg with regard to his work which was carried out by the prisoners and which was not mentioned at all.
That was a doctor's thesis which he only saw after it had already been put in the form of a book - and even then he did not read it. At the period of time when I was negotiating with the dean, Dr. Hoven still did not have the slightest idea what was contained in the book.
Q Herr Ackermann, do you know of any instances in which Dr. Hoven pointed out an inmate and said, "I want his skull in my collection"?
A Yes, I can remember the day when he came to me when a prisoner walked past. I did not know this prisoner personally, however, apparently, Dr. Hoven knew him. And he told me, "Ackermann, I would like to have this skull on my desk tomorrow." Then he came to me with a note and he apparently had jotted down a number on it. The very same evening, the prisoner was ordered to report to the hospital and on the next day he was on my autopsy table and the skull was taken apart, and it was turned over to Dr. Hoven.
I believe that I can state and assume that this was a prisoner who perhaps had been named to him by the illegal camp administration.
Q Herr Ackermann, you know of instances where the tatoos on the skin of inmates were collected?
A Yes, that was a specialty of the pathological section in Buchenwald already at a very early period: to take off the skin of prisoners and to tan it. Production was carried out by two ways: either it was put into a transparent form, or it was tanned so that the skin became tough, like leather.
The order was issued for the first time by the chief of the Pathological Section; I believe it was Dr. Gutacker or Dr. Lewe. But the order originated by Dr. Lolling and Dr. Lolling said that the frequency of tatoos being found on prisoners was very significant, and that a very interesting collection could be made here. And the order was given that every prisoner who had a tatoo would have his skin taken off after his death. Tatoos were then kept in the Pathological Section, and they were constantly turned over to Berlin, to Dr. Lolling.
Q Do you know whether it was considered among the inmates to be a rather dangerous thing, to have an interesting tatoo on one's body?
A Yes, Dr. Eisele was given the order that every prisoner had to report to the hospital. That is to say, every prisoner who had a tatoo at any place on his body. These tatoos were registered and, in the case of prisoners who had newly arrived, it was stated in the files what tatoos they had and where they were located on his body.
Q Do you know whether any of these tatoos were sent to Amtsgruppe D in Berlin?
A They were sent to Amtsgruppe D-III, Attention of Dr. Lolling.
Q Do you know of instances in which shrunken skulls were prepared and collected in Buchenwald?
A I did not entirely understand the question (Question repeated by interpreter)
Q A shrunken skull or a mummified skull?
A Yes, we did not only prepare skeleton. But for the first time in Europe we did something which, until that period of time, was only known from the descriptions in the journals of South Africa. That is, the manufacture of shrunken skulls.
While the Indians took away the scalps of enemies who had died in battle, other natives cut off the heads of their enemies who had died in battle and brought them back to their priests. The priests then kept these heads as trophies, and they shrunk them. That is to say, by heating them, they were shrunk to such an extent that they only assumed the size of a big apple or a big pear.
From SS Obersturmfuehrer Dr. Mueller, we were given an order at the time to prepare such shrunken skulls for the first time in Europe and we had to do that through the descriptions of a traveller who had observed these ceremonies with the savage tribes. The preparation was carried out in such a manner that the back of the skull was cut open and all the soft parts, the muscle parts, were taken out so that actually only the loose skin was left there. The hairs remained intact and the eyebrows and towards the outside everything remained normal. Now the interior was filled with hot sand for a period of twenty-four hours so that the skin shrunk like leather and the skull became as small as the head of a doll. Then, afterwards, the skull was again sewed up on the back and it was put on a wooden pedestal. Then it was exhibited to members of the SS and the SS men liked to have these things on their writing desk in order to consider themselves important.
Q Was the Dr. Mueller that you just mentioned subordinated to Dr. lolling?
A Dr. Mueller, like every physician in the concentration camp was subordinated to Dr. Lolling.
Q Do you know if these shrunken heads were made at the order of Dr. Lolling?
A I dan not say that. In any case, I can say that he inspected these skulls and that he was very much in favor of it and that he recommended the manufacture of other shrunken skulls and that he immediately ordered a skeleton privately for himself and this was given to him.
Q Herr Ackermann, do you know if frequent visits were made to the camp by various parties to inspect these shrunken skulls on exhibition?
A We had regular visitors in the camp. These visitors came in large groups when any national meeting took place at Weimar and frequently the persons who attended the meeting were invited by the camp commanders to inspect the camp.
Q Were these only SS men or did these parties include other people?
A These groups included all possible people. On some occasion there was some sort of workers' meeting at Weimar and the workers arrived in buses. At least 150 people arrived and they went from Weimar to Buchenwald in three buses. These people were usually shown three things. The first was the so-called canteen, the post-exchange. The canteen for the prisoners had been established outside. It only had one fault and that is nothing could be bought there, except some shoe polish on occasions. The second station where visitors were lead to was the pathological section, because there we had established a big exhibition room. In this exhibition room we had many hundred of drugs on display and the skeletons were displayed there and on a table there were the shrunken heads and on another table there were hundreds of tattoos.
Q Herr Ackermann, I believe the court wants to ask you a question.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q You mentioned 150 people who came, I think, from Weimar to Buchenwald, and you called them editors or writers. We didn't get the translation of that word.
A They were workers. They were craftsmen.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Herr Ackermann, were explanatory lectures made to these visitors, and, if so, who made them?
A I was ordered to hold a lecture every time that visitors came.
Q. You, yourself, made these lectures?
A I had to give these lectures by myself because no physician could ever be seen in my department in the morning.
Q Herr Ackermann, can you give us some idea of the total number of people who witnessed these exhibits?
A That is very difficult to give an exact number, but there were months when such visitors almost arrived every day. In some cases individual people came and, above all, there were also members from Wehrmacht. Then there were Air Corps officers who had been awarded the Ritterkreuz, the Knight's Cross, and who, as a reward, were also being shown around the concentration camp.
Q And were school children being brought there?
A You can not say if they were school children, but people between the ages of 14 to 17 were brought into the camp and we assumed that this perhaps was one of the schools which was intended for the new generation.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q You mentioned three places where the visitors were taken and you stopped at the second one, which was the exhibit. What was the third place?
A The third place was the so-called operating room of the hospital. It had been newly established and it looked very imposing and the people were lead in there to see. Otherwise, they did not see anything at all of the camp.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Herr Ackermann, how long were you in Nordhausen?
A On the 4th of January, 1944, I came to the camp Dora near Nordhausen.
Q It is a branch camp of Nordhausen, is it?
A No, Nordhausen was not a camp at all. Nordhausen later on became a branch camp of Dora.
Q And what kind of work was being done at Dora?
AAt Dora work was carried out in an old deserted mine which had been built up and which was on the south part of the Harz mountains. That was located in a chain of mountains called the Kronstein. In there big halls for production were established and from the summer of 1943 on the V-weapons of Germany were manufactured.
Q Do you know why you were transferred from Buchenwald to Dora?
A On the evening of the 3d of January, I was given a telegram and this telegram had approximately the following contents. "The Prisoner Ackermann of the Pathology Section is to be sent and to be transferred to the Camp Dora at once, signed, Kammler." Afterwards I heard through Hauptsturmfuehrer Mr. Blatzer and I was given the fact and the reasons for my transfer in a rather plausible manner. Dr. Blatzer, who had been my superior at Buchenwald for some time had already been transferred as physician to Dora in the fall of 1943. Already in charge, he came to me and said that I should come to him, because he was urgently in need of my assistance and he did not have any trained clerk. I told him that this was completely out of the question and I refused to go there and then the regular physician, at that time Dr. Schiedlausky, told him that he would not release me and that he would have to look for somebody else. Now Dr. Blatzer, as he told me afterwards on the occasions of the visit of Kammler at Dora had stated that he urgently needed this clerk and as a result of this Kammler sent this order which was absolutely intolerable also for the commanders and the camp physician of Buchenwald and that is already shown by the fact that at night I went to bed in the hospital and had a chart with a high fever and that I was living there in bandages and it was stated that I was unable to be transported and then the commanders stated that dead or alive I was to go to Dora and that is an order from Kammler, and if I can not go otherwise, I will have to go on a stretcher.
Then I again took off my bandages and went to Dora.
Q What kind of work were you given to do in Dora?
A In Dora I was the clerk of Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Blatzer who was the camp physician there. My activity consisted of taking Dr. Blatzer's place until noon and at noon when he had slept off his drunkenness of the night before, at that time I received the orders for the correspondence with Lolling and with other centralized agencies.
Q Did Dr. Kahr take Dr. Blatzer's place at a certain time?
A Yes, Dr. Blatzer was completely incapable who even went on Dr. Lolling's nerves. He was releaved towards the end of January by the camp physician Dr. Kahr.
Q K-a-h-r?
A Karl Kahr, K-a-h-r.
Q And was it your work at Dora to furnish for the workers who had died?
A Yes. Although we did not have a pathological section my work was to prepare the records for the dead. As a result of this I was able to move around while the engineers and other civilian, and also the prisoners were strictly restricted to a certain sector, and they were not allowed to leave this certain sector.
On the very first day I started to work at Dora I took a walk to the subterranean mines, and perhaps it will give a idea of the size if I say that two freight trains could drive along them next to each other, and next to it there was still a big highway with other railroad installations there.
The misery of the prisoners there in the mines was indescribable. Thousands of prisoners had to work here month after month. They had to work here below the earth. They not only had to work here, but they had to live, eat and sleep here. They lived in a big stone chamber and in there alone there were 3500 prisoners, and they had to sleep there. The bods were always filled. When one shift had to get up, the other shift had to return from work and take their places, and they would go into which was filled with lice. It consisted of an old straw bag which stank terribly, and an old blanket which was suited for horses. The air in the mine was so full of calcium that it was hard to breathe The people had to perform hard work for twelve hours, and with the small amount of food they were given they collapsed for exhaustion during work. Whenever I walked through the mines I always had to step over and walked over the corpses. They were lying just on the way. Many of these prisoners committed suicide by throwing themselves down at the mines or by otherwise committing suicide, or they took a rope and hanged themselves to the next post.
The death rate constantly increased. In February 1945 with 50,000 workers, it amounted to 3500, and in March 1945, I registered in my death book where all the names and places places of birth and all nationalities of the prisoners had been registered-- I listed 5,000 that is to say 10% of all the prisoners there.
In theory, such a camp would have died would have died completely within ten months.
Q Do you know if this camp was subordinated to the WVHA in Berlin?
A After all the letters, at least those from the medical section, and after we had to sent them to D-III, to Lolling repeatedly came for inspections we had to assume that the WVHA, with which we also communicated in economic matters, was the superior organization and agency of this SS institution.
Q Was it a part of your work to open and read all the letters that came in your department?
A Yes. It was so that I received all letters and I also received the secret orders and instructions, because it had been explained to me "You can read everything because, after all you will never leave the concentration camp." And I kept these things with me.
Q Can you give us some idea of the number of percentage of German nationals at Dora?
A There was an exceedingly small number of German nationals at Dora. Ye only had approximatively 600 German nationals at dora and in the branch camps, and the others consisted mainly of Frenchmen, Russians, Czechs, Poles and Dutchmen or other nationalities. We had approximately thirty-two nationalities represented there.
Q Were the prisoners of war worked there?
A We also had prisoners of war. We had Russians and Italians
Q Can you state wether or not the conditions improved under Dr. Kahr?
A Conditions improved considerably under Dr. Kahr. He especially tried to improve the hygienic and sanitation conditions there. This Dr. Kahr did not only distinguish himself by protecting a large number of prisoners from death by enabling us to protect them from the investigations of the Gestapo, ot to save them from a SS Scharfuehrer by having them accept in the hospital even if they were not sick, but he saved the lives of thousands by taking care that through hygienic improvements the epidemic could be prevented, and as it has to be said in public and I would like to say this; that under the SS there were not only pigs, but there were numerous people who were correct and in excess of that there were SS men who became our best friends.
Q You have stated that Kahr took Dr. Blatzer's place?
A Yes.
Q Do you know wether Dr. Kahr was relieved of his position there at Buchenwald?
A Dr. Kahr was relieved from his position and he was transferred as a disciplinary measure after a trial had been started against him because he was politically conspiring with prisoners and because he was disturbing the production of V-weapons at Dora. He was sent into the back camp, to Gross-Rosen from his position at the first camp physician at Dora.
Q From your work at Buchenwald do you know of the transport of workers who were no longer able to work?
A These transports from Dora originated from orders which were issued by Dr. Lolling, the physician in charge of all the concentration camps. These orders came into my hands and they stated for example all persons who are not capable of performing work anymore are to be organized into one transport and their number is to be reported, and in the next few days further directions will be issued. And then several days later a teletype would arrive - one thousand transport of prisoners incapable of working can leave on such and such a date. These prisoners were placed into certain transport groups and they were sent away. In January when I was there, a transport was put together which was sent to Lublin. The destination to which the prisoners were sent was usually told us afterwards from the escort guards, and of the thousand men who came to Lublin in January, only 600 arrived. The remainder died during the journey. The physical condition of these pri soners was already so bad that they were unable to live through such a transport.
Q Do you know if these prisoners were being transported for the purpose of being gassed?
A That was never mentioned in the teletype. However it was clear to us that these were superfluous people who were unable to work anymore and the guards who again returned from the transport told us-- of course, they may not have seen it themselves--"Well, they have already died in Lublin."
Q Herr Ackermann, if it would be more comfortable for you I think you can sit back, It is not necessary to sit close to the microphone.
A Yes.
Q Can you tell us how much sleep the workers at Dora received?
A I sent a memorandum about that to the physician in charge, Dr. Lolling, and it was signed by Dr. Kahr. In this memorandum we proved that the prisoners, as a result of twelve hour work and the long march to and from the work, and long roll call through which they had to stand, usually came into their blocks at 11.30 at night. That was during the day, they arrived from their blocks at 11.30 and there would be given their first warm lunch, and at 12.30 at night, they would only go to bed. In summer time they were again waked up at 2.30 in the morning, so that these people only were able to sleep for 1-1/2 or 2 hours. And this of course resulted in their complete exhaustion. The inferior food alone would not given any explanation for the fact that the corpses of all prisoners only consisted of skin and bones. However, with this exhaustion they were unable to take any food, and if they had been given any food it still would not have been of any use.
Q How far did the workers have to mark to their work?
A These varied according to the individual branch camps. The personnel from Nordhausen who, lived in the Burg Kaserne had a marching route of two hours or 2-1/2 hours.