A There were medical officers, yes.
Q Those medical officers were there and remained there?
A Whether they remained I couldn't tell you.
Q Then you spoke of killings and murders in the citadel and near the bridge in the town. Did you see that yourself?
A Yes.
Q Were you every where?
A I shall describe to you how I saw it. I was kicked out of the hospital. I attempted to leave the town, but the SS had blocked it. I asked a Polish woman whether she would come with me from the hospital.
Q What do you mean, the city was blocked by the SS?
A You could not leave the city that's what I meant.
Q What is the perimeter of the town?
A It's very big.
Q And everywhere there were SS?
A It was completely surrounded by SS. We could not get through.
Q You mean the whole town?
A I was not everywhere. I was there where I attempted to get out; and there it was blocked.
Q Where did you want to get out.
A I wanted to leave the town near the hospital, near the northwest. I wanted to go to the station.
Q Oh, the station? Well, I quite believe that troops were there.
A That was my only other possibility because all other roads went into the town, so I had to go in to the town. There they grabbed hold of me; and I was driven towards the citadel. There I saw everything which I described.
Q How did you see that the bridge had been repaired?
A The bridge had been destroyed first, but then you could use it again; and so one could see that it had been repaired. You couldn't use it entirely, perhaps; but you could cross over on it.
Q Were there Ukrainian or Polish militia in your town at the time?
A No Polish militia, but we had Ukrainian militia. This was organized only towards the 5th and 6th of July.
Q No militia on the 3rd?
A No, there was only the civilian population.
Q I see. Was the civilian population incensed?
A How do you mean?
Q Was the civilian population angry?
A Yes, some of them were angry.
Q I don't see why they should be angry.
A Nor do I, I don't know the reason. We lived in close harmony with these same people until the SS came in. They were our neighbors, our friends.
Q How were relations between Ukrainians and Poles? Are you of Polish nationality?
A I am a Jew.
Q Yes, but what is your nationality?
A Polish. Relations between Poles and Ukrainians were completely quiet and harmonious as long as Poland existed.
Q Why did one party suddenly beat or kill the other party?
A The Ukrainians did not kill Poles; they only killed Jews.
Q How were relations between Ukrainians and Jews?
A Throughout the period of the Polish sovereignty the relations between Ukrainians and Jews were very friendly. We lived together; we studied together. I collaborated with a friend of mine, a doctor, in the hospital.
Q But how was it that there was suddenly this program?
A The program was organized by the SS, and they took the population along with them, the Ukrainians.
Q Well, look here. You say that it was three days at the most that the German troops were there.
In three days you can't suddenly shake friendly relations. You must indulge in propaganda. You need time. Something must be done, surely. There must have been an ancient wrath, an ancient hatred.
A I know nothing of that. I and my Ukrainian friend lived together very harmoniously as we did with the Poles.
Q What are relations like today?
A Between myself and the Ukrainians relations are excellent. I have a Ukrainian Camp under my supervision; and I'm quite sure that everybody would do his utmost for me.
Q No, I mean over there in Poland.
A I don't know what things are like in Poland today.
Q You say the trucks there had unloaded their food supplies in the hospital?
A The hospital was evacuated into a school. This was an enormous building subdivided into two parts. One part was used for the hospital, and the other had a special entrance. That was used as a depot where these food supplies were stored.
Q Were these reserves for the hospital, so to speak?
A No. No, these were for the troops.
Q I see. This must have been a unit, in other words, which supplied troops which were to arrive later on.
A I couldn't tell you because the food which was unloaded was again loaded on other trucks three hours later and taken somewhere else. This was a transient depot. Nothing was issued from it to the town. Even the hospital received nothing from it. We lived on what the population gave us.
Q Were you yourself at the bakery?
A No.
Q You say with the utmost certainty that you did not see other troops except the SS?
A On that day I saw only the SS. In the evening there were two members of the Wehrmacht in our hospital. They spoke up alone.
Q You said that posters had been posted stating that one should volunteer to work?
A I did not say anything about posters.
Q You didn't?
A I merely spoke of a proclamation that one should come and volunteer.
Q How was this made known?
A Two Jews were called there and told to tell the population to volunteer for work.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any questions by other counsel? The witness may be excused.
DR. BERGOLD: If the Tribunal please, the Tribunal have been kind enough to permit me to call three witnesses, who are witnesses who were in Wewelsburg Camp. That have arrived this morning and are sitting outside on the bench. I must apologize for being unable to observe the time limit by announcing these witnesses' appearance seventytwo hours ahead to the prosecution. I did not know when they would arrive, however. If Mr. Robbins agrees, I should be prepared to call these three men as witnesses. I take it that the Court would agree?
THE PRESIDENT: We'll agree for Mr. Robbins.
DR. BERGOLD: Then could Herr Wilhelm Krause be called as the first witness, please?
MR. ROBBINS: It may be, if the Tribunal please, that we can save some time by a stipulation here. If Dr. Bergold says that these witnesses are going to testify to the fact that they were inmates at Wewelsburg and that they did not see the defendant Klein there, which I understand is the point for which they are being called, I am willing to stipulate that is what they will testify to.
MR. BERGOLD: This is not all that I wish to do. These three men were in Wewelsburg from February 1940 until 1945 and neither saw Klein nor even heard his name. If Mr. Robbins only stipulates that the three witnesses have not seen Klein, that would not be quite sufficient. I also want to prove that, although they had been in Wewelsburg for five years, they did not even hear Klein's name. This is of importance to me because the witness Schwarz has testified that he had heard from comrades about Klein. Now, it is a wellknown fact that the inmates in camps are extremely well informed always as to who was responsible for their lot and as to whom they had to deal with. If these three inmates, who were in Wewelsburg for five years throughout this time did not even hear Klein's name, one might deduce from that Klein had nothing to do with Wewelsburg Camp as such. This is what I wish to prove.
MR. ROBBINS: If Dr. Bergold tells me that that's what they are going to testify to, I'm willing to stipulate, in order to avoid the necessity of calling them, that is what they will testify to. I don't consider it a very important point; and I am willing to concede that is what they will testify to.
DR. BERGOLD: Now, after all, these three men have travelled a long distance at the request of the Court. Perhaps we can hear only one of them.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, let's hear all three of them, but briefly. It will be a great disappointment to them to take this long trip down here and then have the door shut in their faces. Let's have some consideration for the witnesses, but briefly.
DR. BERGOLD: Very well. There is one request, if the Tribunal please. These three witnesses are Jehovah's Witnesses; and because of their faith they are not permitted to give an oath by quoting the name of God, lest there be any conflicts with their faith; and I believe that the Court in accordance with the freedom usually in America will not force the witnesses to do something against their faith.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
DR. BERGOLD: They also request that they not be required to raise their right hands because that again would be a violation of their faith. However, they will confirm everything else.
WILHELM KRAUSE, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, will you repeat after me:
I affirm that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, will you please give your full name to the Tribunal?
A Krause, and my Christian name is Wilhelm.
Q When were you born?
A On the 8th of January 1891.
Q Where?
A In Neuschweinitz, in the area of Lauban in Silesia.
Q You are now a resident of Wewelsburg, are you?
A Yes.
Q Witness, is it true that because of your religious convictions you were committed to a concentration camp?
A Yes.
Q Is it also true that this happened in 1935 or 1936?
A It happened in 1936; but then I was sent to a prison rather than to a concentration camp.
Q You were sentenced by an orderly court?
A By the Special Court in Berlin.
Q Is it true that between February 1940 and 1945 you were in the Wewelsburg Camp?
A Yes.
Q Witness, in that period of time did you see the defendant Horst Klein in the camp?
A I cannot recall.
DR. BERGOLD: Will defendant Horst Klein please get up?
(The defendant Horst Klein rises.)
Q Look at this man.
A No, I don't know him.
Q You don't know him? Thank you. Did you in that period of time between 1940 and 1945 hear his name mentioned in the concentration camp?
A I don't think so.
Q. Did you not hear that he was the superior officer to the Camp Leader Haas, or who did you think was the superior officer of the Camp Commandant Haas?
A We thought the superior officers of the camp to be the people in Berlin of the Group Command, Group Command Berlin.
Q Whom do you mean by that? What is his name?
A Well, as far as I knew, particularly Herr Gluecks.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you. I have no further questions of this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross examination, Mr. Robbins?
MR. ROBBINS: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other counsel wish to cross examine?
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness, did you say you were first taken into custody in 1936?
A I was sent to a prison in 1936.
Q For what reason?
A Because according to the indictment I have worked for the International Association of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Q Well, was that a crime under German law?
AAccording to the views held at the time by those in power.
Q That was three years before the war?
A Yes, quite.
Q And you were imprisoned. Did you stay in prison then from 1936 to 1945, either in prison or in camp?
A In March of 1938 I was sent to the Sachsenhausen Camp. Until that time I had been in a number of prisons.
Q Then from 1936 to 1945 you were either in prison or in a concentration camp the entire time?
A Yes.
Q That's about nine years?
A Yes.
Q And the cause of your imprisonment was your religious belief?
A Yes.
Q Had you committed any other crime?
A I was never accused of any crime nor punished for one.
Q Nine years in prison because you held a certain belief in God?
A Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: That's all.
DR. BERGOLD: May I say this, your Honors. According to the German law at the time the International Association of Jehovah's Witnesses had been suppressed and it was then an offense according to the laws of the time to belong to an association which had been forbidden. That was the offense of which this witness had been accused. Is this correct, Witness?
A Yes.
BY THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE PHILLIPS):
Q Witness, while you were at Wewelsburg, did you see any mistreatment of the inmates there?
A I'm somewhat hard of hearing. I can't hear.
(The interpreter repeated the question.)
A Of course, I saw that frequently.
Q What did you see?
AAbove all how they were being beaten; even in the morning in the roll call; in their barracks also; moreover, when they worked.
Q Did you see any worked to death?
A I saw that, too.
Q Did you see any shot?
A Yes, some were shot as well.
Q Did you see any beaten to death?
A I was not present myself, because I worked in the nursery garden. Usually I was not present at the places of work where these things occurred; but I saw a great many when they were dead, or when they were being carried in from the place of work.
Q Did you see any that had starved to death?
A Starved to death? A great many died of starvation and mistreatment there; and the corpses were, all of them, only skeletons.
Q About how many inmates would you estimate died while you were there, who had died as a result of mistreatment and starvation?
A I cannot give you the figure because I do not have the precise information, but most of them died of starvation and exhaustion.
Q What happened to you from a physical standpoint?
A To me, you mean? What happened to me, you mean?
Q Yes.
A I see. Well, as far as I was concerned, as long as I was in the camp--inside the camp, I mean -I was exposed to all these things just as much as everybody else was. The place of work itself was more favorable as far as I was concerned because I was alone. I was supervised only by a sentry.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q You were born in Germany?
A Yes, certainly.
Q Your father is a German?
A Yes.
Q You are not Jewish?
A No.
Q You are a Christian? You believe in God?
A I am a Jehovah's Witness.
Q Yes, well, Jehovah's Witnesses believe in God?
A Yes.
Q Of course. The trouble is you just believed in the wrong way; you believed in the same God but you took a different way of expressing your belief, and for that you spent nine years in prison?
A Well, we believe what the Bible says; and in many cases the various religious systems contradict what the Bible says. For instance, the Scriptures forbid murder; and for that reason we did not support in any way the preparation for war. For instance, we did not contribute to the armament factories when here were collections in the street. We did not say "Heil Hitler". For those and similar reasons we were declared to be enemies of the state.
Q That was three years before there was any war?
A Yes, indeed.
DR. BERGOLD: I have one more question.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q You were sentenced by the verdict of a proper court, a proper court with judges?
A Yes, the Special Court in Berlin.
DR. BERGOLD. Thank you.
Q We had here in court a few days ago the death books of the Concentration Camp Wewelsburg, and one of the -
A Yes.
Q -- death books listed that one of the inmates at Wowelsburg had died because he smoked too many cigarettes. Did you know of any death resulting from excessive smoking in the concentration camp?
A No, I know nothing about that.
Q That must have been a false entry, was it not?
A Now sofar as I know the inmates only smoked the butts which the guards had thrown down, or would "shoot them", and when cigarettes were issued to the inmates, otherwise, to the best of my knowledge this was done as a reward to the professional criminals who had hanged people who had been sentenced.
Q About how many inmates were in Wewelsburg, witness, during the year of 1943, January, February and March?
THE PRESIDENT: Haven't we got that in a more credible form, or records?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, as a matter of fact the record is a little bit skimpy on this point, just how many inmates there were. I think it is important because the book shows the number of deaths, but it is not exactly certain how many inmates were there.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but I assume the gardener would merely guess at it anyway.
MR. ROBBINS: I think he would.
THE WITNESS: Yes. When I arrived on 16 February 1940 from Sachsenhausen to Wewelsburg, and at that time this transport, sofar as I know, consisted of two-hundred and fifty men. In the course of the next few months a few more came from Buchenwald Camp, and the figure was then roughly increased to about five-hundred. After that new transports of inmates arrived, most of them who had come there were professional criminals, but also political ones, and asocial ones. At that time the figure consisted of about eight-hundred inmates.
Q About what year was that?
A That must have been in 1941, I should say. Later on very many Russians and Ukrainians arrived, very young people, and the highest figure, as far as I know, reached eighteen-hundred or two-thousand.
Q And when was that?
A That was in or by the end of 1942, and the beginning of '43, the first months of 1943. After that the Camp was dissolved, and that was remained behind was only a detachment of fifty inmates, fifty Jehova's Witnesses. They were all of them skilled workers, and were at the disposal of the castle.
Q Now in March 1943, out of the eight-hundred inmates who were there -- or eighteen-hundred inmates, around one-hundred and twenty-five died in one month?
A Yes.
Q What was the reason for so many people dying in March of 1943?
A First of all because they were exhausted, and the result of ill treatment, and cold. On one morning I recall there were those who were no longer capable of working. They were carried out of the barracks, around the square where the roll call was held, and there they were laid down on the ground, outside their block, so that the block had been able to be there completely; they were beaten and kicked and forced to get up, and they were under any circumstances to take their place in the roll call. Many of them were taken out to the working place in dying condition; others died a few hours later in the barracks, or in the hospital.
Q Witness, did you ever work outside the concentration camp?
AAt the beginning when I came to Wewelsburg, first I worked in the stone quarry.
Q Did you ever march through the city of Wewelsburg, rather the hamlet or town?
A Yes, I did, but not very often.
Q One witness testified here that a witness who was a citizen of Wewelsburg, that he had seen the inmates carrying dead and beaten inmates through the city.
Did you ever see scenes such as that?
A That was an extremely well known fact, because all my comrades witnessed this. I myself saw when we marched in how they were carried in the midst of the column into the camp. Furthermore, I know that when inmates had died at their place of work, a sentry was left behind until the corpse was fetched by car -- by motorcar -- a closed motorcar.
Q Witness, then you would say the population of Wewelsburg had an opportunity to know the inmates in the concentration camp were being mistreated?
A The camp management did everything in order to hide this fact from the population of the village. I believe that inhabitants had the opportunity to assume rather than to know these things.
Q Did you know that there were inmates from many different nations in Wewelsburg?
A Yes, I met a variety of people, and a great many Russians, Frenchmen and Belgiums. One Belgium I know came from Brussels, a man called Henry, but I don't knew his surname. He made gloves, and he ate his heart out in longing for his mother. At one time he wrote a letter by the institution of the Red Cross. In that letter he said, "Dear Mother. I am dying here of starvation, and from longing to see you." That letter was not sent off, and he was ticked off because of this letter, and, later on through the Red Cross again, he is said to have written a letter to his mother but he died.
Q Then further, that book shows that some Americans died at Wewelsburg. Did you know any Americans in the concentration camp?
A It is possible, but I did not know that because the number was very large, and one could not know all the people in the various blocks.
MR. ROBBINS: All right, that is all.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may be excused. Have the next witness ready after the recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(Recess)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
ALBERT SCHATKOWSKY, a witness, took the stand and was examined and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: Will you stand please. Will you repeat after me: I affirm that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the affirmation.)
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, please make a brief pause after every question which I ask you so that the interpreters will be able to complete the translation of my questions. Please tell the Tribunal your first name and your family name.
A Schatkowsky, Albert.
Q When were you born?
A 16 August 1900.
Q Where were you born?
AAt Przyroschen.
Q Is that in Germany?
A It is in the district of Johannesburg, East Prussia.
Q That was Germany before?
A Yes.
Q Where are you living now?
AAt Wewelsburg.
Q Witness, you are a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses?
A Yes.
Q Is it correct that in the year 1935 or 1936 you were tried by a German court because you continued a prohibited organization in existence, namely, the Jehovah's Witnesses?
A Yes. That was in 1936.
Q Is it correct that after you had served your sentence, you were sent to a concentration camp?
A Yes.
Q Is it correct that from February 1940 until the spring of 1945 you were at the camp in Wewelsburg?
A From May 1940 until April 1945.
Q During this period of time, did you hear anything about Obersturmbannfuehrer Horst Klein, or did you see him in the concentration camp during that time?
A No, I did not see him there, nor did I hear of him.
Q I ask the Defendant Klein to stand.
(The defendant Horst Klein rose.)
Q Take a look at this man. Have you ever seen him at Wewelsburg at the camp?
A. No.
Q Have you heard in general who gave the orders at Wewelsburg with regard to the inmates?
A That was the commandant by the name of Haas.
Q Is it correct that Commandant Haas was subordinated to Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks?
A That escapes my knowledge.
DR. BERGOLD: I have no further questions. Go ahead Mr. Robbins.
Mr. Robbins: I have no questions.
THE PRESIDENT: No further questions? Next witness.
DR. BERGOLD: Witness, you may leave the courtroom now.
(Witness excused.)
ERNST SPECHT, a witness, took the stand and was examined and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat after me, please: I affirm that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the affirmation.)
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, please make a brief pause after each of my questions, so that my questions will be translated into English first. Please tell the Tribunal your first name and your family name.
A My name is Specht, Ernst.
Q When and where were you born?
A I was born at Paulswiese, Mark Berlin.
Q And when?
A 6 March 1902.
Q Where are you living now?
A I am now a resident of Wewelsburg.
Q Witness, is it correct that you are a member of Jehovah's Witnesses?
A Yes
Q Is it correct that in the year 1935 or 1936 you were tried by a German court because of the maintenance of a prohibited organization, namely, the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses?
A Yes.
Q Is it correct that later on you were committed to a concentration camp?
A Yes.
Q Is it correct that from February 1940 until April 1945 you were at the camp at Wewelsburg?
A Yes.
Q Witness, during this period of time, did you ever hear of the Defendant Obersturmbannfuehrer Horst Klein, or did you ever see him in the concentration camp during that period of time?
A No.
Q I ask the Defendant Klein to stand up.
(Defendant Klein rose.)
Q Look at this man. Have you ever seen him at Wewelsburg?
A No.
DR. BERGOLD: I have no further questions. Mr. Robbins, go ahead, please.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may be excused.
(The witness excused.)
DR. STAKELBERG (Counsel for defendant Fanslau): Your Honor, the Prosecution witness, Dr. Jollek, has described in detail what the uniform of the SS men who committed atrocities at Zclozow looked like. I consider it necessary to ask the defendant Fanslau some very brief questions about the uniforms which were worn by the supply battalion. If the Tribunal please, I would like to call him to the witness stand now.
MR. ROBBINS: If the Tribunal please, one of my assistants has gone to the library to get some pictures of uniforms, and if it would be agreeable with Defense Counsel, I would like for him to wait until they come with the pictures so that we can compare them.