A. Yes, quite.
Q. And were there killings during the first day of July?
A. Not very much was done on the first day. Certain isolated cases of killings did occur, however.
Q. And did killings of the civilians take place on the second day?
A. Yes.
Q. And did they continue on the third day of July?
A. On the second day they began on a small scale; they were shot at, while they were in the street, when they happened to be in the street, but on the third day we had an organized pogrom.
Q. How many Jews were killed at Zclotzow in the first days of July?
A. The estimate was between 3,000 and 3,500 people.
Q. Did you notice of insignia of any of the SS troops while they were in Zclotzow?
A. Yes, one could see that. They wore a death head and two "SS" in the form of lightening, a flash. Then also they had insignia on the hand and I cannot recall what it read.
Q. Could you see any insignia on the trucks?
A. Yes, I saw insignia on the first two days, the second and third days, it was an insignia in the form of a swastika with round edges.
A. Will you take this paper and draw the insignia that you saw on the trucks?
A. (The witness complied.)
Q. Will you hold it up so we can see it?
A. (The witness complied.)
Q. Have you been told at any time what that insignia stands for?
A. I did not know what it meant at the time, but I was told only a few weeks ago. I have heard that from somebody from our town, a boy told me that this was an insignia of an SS division.
Q. And did he tell you what division this was the insignia of?
A. Yes, I was told that this was the insignia of the Viking Division.
Q. How many trucks at Zclotzow did you see with this insignia?
A. Hundreds of them on trucks and cars.
Q. And what were these trucks carrying?
A. They carried food. They were covered boxes and they had a magazine for food supplies near the hospital -- not near the hospital actually, but in the same building and there they unloaded these food supplies.
Q. And was this an entire division?
A. I am afraid I couldn't tell you; I am not sure.
Q. Do you know whether baking was being done in the city by this division?
A. Yes. Opposite the citadel 200 or 300 metres, there was a factory for bricks and there the bakery was installed. Jews were taken there too to do some work.
Q. Can you say whether or not the troops from the division which bore this insignia took part in the killings of the civilian population?
A. There were no other troops, but it was only that division, the SS troops, and they took part in these killings and murders. They actually carried out the murders. They did not only take part.
Q. I believe you told me, Witness, that your whole family was killed during these days in July, is that correct?
A. My sister-in-law was taken away and up to the citadel. There she was very severely injured, but she succeeded in escaping from the citadel, but as the wounds were exposed to the dirt for a long time, she contracted tetanus and died from the consequences in our hospital.
Q. One last question. Did you see any other insignia that you could identify today of the troops that were occupying Zclotzow?
A. In the first days I only saw this insignia. Later on I saw SS signs in the form of a key, but that I only saw later on, not at first.
Q. Do you know what insignia that is?
A. I did not know what the key stood for.
Q. Do you know today what it stands for?
A. I know the significance of it, yes, today.
Q. What is it then?
A. This was the Adolf Hitler Leibstandarte.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you lose any other relatives in the citadel besides your sister-in-law?
THE WITNESS: No, I lost a sister; I lost my son, but not in the citadel, only later on.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you lose them on the same occasion, at the same time in July?
THE WITNESS: No, this was much later. This was in 1943.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. VON STAKELBERG (ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT FANSLAU):
Q. Witness, since when are you here in Nurnberg?
A. since today.
Q. Have you not been interviewed by the prosecution before?
A. I was interrogated today.
Q. How did you get here? Were you requested?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you volunteer?
A. Yes.
Q. How did it come about that you volunteered?
A. There was a Historical Jewish Commission in Munich and they know what I went through in Zclotzow.
Q. And they invited you to come here?
A. I received a telegram directly from here.
Q. From here? And before that you had no contact with the prosecution?
A. Before this I met in Munich a man who told me that he had been sent by this Historical Commission and that there was a trial in Nurnberg where the Zclotzow complex had been touched upon.
Q. When was that?
A. Last week.
Q. You met him in Munich, did you?
A. Yes, I was in Munich at the time.
Q. I thought you were in Deggendorf.
A. Yes, of course, I am in Deggendorf, but I happened to be in Munich.
Q. Were you told what other witnesses have told us here?
A. No.
Q. You said that since 1937 you had been in Zclotzow?
A. Yes.
Q. As a doctor?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you want to go back?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. I have lost everything there. I have nothing to look for there and I don't want to live on graves.
Q. Do you wish to remain in Deggendorf?
A. No, I want to emigrate.
Q. You said that on the 3d of July a organized pogrom was started in Zclotzow. How do you recall that date so well, the 3d of July?
A. So many victims were killed on that day and we saw it, this date will always be in my memory.
Q. But you don't recall when the first invasion reached Zclotzow?
A. I don't recall exactly the date, but I remember very well how this came about, because I happened to be on night duty in the Hospital.
Q. If you know so exactly that the pogrom started on the 3d of July you should also remember when the invasion was.
A. Two or three days previously.
Q. Well, well. This is very uncertain. Who carried out the pogrom?
A. The SS.
Q. And did the civilian population take part?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you know the SS carried it out?
A. Because the leaders were the SS. They went from house to house and dragged the people out. The civilian population had only been used to assist them.
Q. Where were you at the time?
A. I was in the hospital.
Q. And did you see how the SS went into the houses?
A. Yes, because the SS also kicked me out of the hospital and drove me through the town.
Q. Is the hospital not in the town?
A. The hospital is on the fringes of the town.
Q. Eastern or western fringes?
A. Near the station. It must be northwest.
Q. Northwest? Describe to me the uniform of these men whom you describe as SS men.
A. On the caps they wear a skull, a death head.
Q. What sort of caps were they wearing? Did they not wear steel helmets?
A. Not all of them.
Q. Well, go on; what were they wearing?
A. Where the Wehrmacht usually wears their insignia they had the death head.
Q. Where does the Wehrmacht carry its insignia?
A. Well, it is a sort of a button they wear on their cap.
Q. I know what you mean, but where did they wear it?
A. On the cap.
Q. Yes, but I want to know where.
A. They carried it on the cap.
Q. Tell me, describe this cap more precisely. I want to know what sort of people they were.
A. I am telling you it was a death head on the cap.
Q. What color was the cap?
A. The same one as the Wehrmacht, the same Wehrmacht green color.
Q. And what shape was this cap?
A. They were caps which all soldiers wore, the usual ordinary caps which we also wear.
Q. Well, tell me what was on the front of the cap. What was on the bottom? What was on the top? What was on the right? What was on the left?
A. All I noticed was the death head in front.
Q. Above or below?
A. Above.
Q. And below?
A. I don't remember whether the SS insignia in the form of a flash were on the coat.
Q. Well, we'll talk about the coat presently. What about the steel helmets? What did they look like?
A. I couldn't give you a description. I don't remember.
Q. You don't remember?
A. Although I saw them later on, I don't remember very well.
Q. Perhaps you remember the color, black, gray -
A. I don't remember. Certainly they were not black.
Q. Field gray?
A. Field gray? Well -
Q. And what did the uniforms look like? What sort of uniforms were they wearing?
Black uniforms, brown uniforms, gray uniforms?
A. They wore a field soldier's uniform, not black ones.
Q. If you tell me field soldiers do not wear black uniforms, you are incorrect. There were units who wore black uniforms.
A. Well, I didn't know that. All I know is that black uniforms were worn by those who came along in trucks and took people into the concentration camps.
Q. I mean the Wehrmacht.
A. I never saw the Wehrmacht in black, only in green.
Q. Did you ever see an armored unit, tank unit?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Well, did they wear black uniforms?
A. I saw the tanks only, not the uniforms? I did not see the soldier I can't recall any.
Q. The Viking Division, you said before, you testified that they were members of the Viking Division, but they had a Tank Grenadier Division.
A. I am sorry that I said that. I heard the name Viking by a colleague, but the insignia I did see -- whether they were armored units -hundreds of tanks went through Zclotzow at the time and hundreds of big enormous trucks also went through the city, but whether it was a tank or armored division I don't know.
Q. Well, now you say that the people who were there and whom you describe as SS men, wore gray uniforms?
A. Yes, soldiers uniforms, these gray green field uniforms.
Q. And what sort of insignia were they wearing?
A. I don't remember exactly, but I do remember having seen an insignia of the SS in the form of two "S.S", which looked like lightening.
Q. You saw that on every man?
A. I couldn't tell you that.
Q. But you saw it on some?
A. I believe on almost all of them. They wore a stripe on the cuff here and something was written there, but I don't remember what it looked like.
Q. Well, well. Now you said right on the first day there were victims. How do you know? Did you always go outside on the street and check up on things?
A. I didn't check up on things, but one heard precise details of who had been killed.
Q. You mean what you told us was based on hearsay, is that what you mean?
A. Yes, hearsay.
Q. And on the same day you did not make observations of your own?
A. No.
Q. And what about the third day, what you called the organized pogrom. Why did you use the term "organized"?
A. Well, in the early morning it started in all the streets at the same time, not just one street, and systematically from house to house.
Q. Just a moment. How do you know it was done systematically? How do you know it started simultaneously in all the streets?
A. My family was dragged out. My neighbors were dragged out. My friends in all streets were dragged out.
Q. By the population?
A. By the SS.
Q. And they were driven towards the citadel?
A. Yes, they were driven towards the citadel.
Q. And what were they to do there?
A. They were to dig up corpses.
Q. How did the corpses get there?
A. We were told that these dead Jews had been shot there before the Germans arrived. That is what we were told.
Q. And who did the shooting?
A. The people who were in power at the time, the Soviets.
Q. Who had been shot?
A. Jews and Christians.
Q. Jews and Christians had been shot?
A. Yes.
Q. And what kind of Christians?
A. Ukrainians. That is what the Ukrainians told us what the SS said too, but we are not sure until this day.
Q. Where were you on the 3rd of July?
A. On the 3rd of July I was in the hospital. From the hospital I was kicked out together with all other Jews and this was done by high officers medical officers in the SS.
Q. How did you know that they were high officers?
A. I saw their insignia, gold.
Q. Medical officers?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you know they were medical officers?
A. He told me. I was carrying the Red Cross arm band and he told me to go and when I told him: "After all, I am a doctor I may wear this arm band." He said, "Yes, you are a doctor, but a Jew," and then he said he was a physician.
Q. And he said he was a doctor himself?
A. Yes, he took over the hospital as the main officer in charge. We had to evacuate the hospital.
Q. And from then on the hospital became a Wehrmacht or SS hospital?
A. At the beginning it was a SS hospital, but when they left it was a Wehrmacht hospital.
Q. And that was at the day of the pogrom, when this hospital was taken over and equipped?
A. What happened was this: We doctors were kicked out and the patients remained. They were Russian prisoners of war and civilians, only on the second day the hospital was completely evacuated. First we had to concentrate all the patients into one room, making everything else free for the SS and then they were transported into the town where there was a big school and there the hospital was established.
Q. No, I want to know on the 3rd of July your hospital was taken over and from that time on it was an SS or Wehrmacht hospital?
A. Yes.
Q. In other words, medical units must have been there?
A There were medical officers, yes.
Q Those medical officers were there and remained there?
A Whether they remained I couldn't tell you.
Q Then you spoke of killings and murders in the citadel and near the bridge in the town. Did you see that yourself?
A Yes.
Q Were you every where?
A I shall describe to you how I saw it. I was kicked out of the hospital. I attempted to leave the town, but the SS had blocked it. I asked a Polish woman whether she would come with me from the hospital.
Q What do you mean, the city was blocked by the SS?
A You could not leave the city that's what I meant.
Q What is the perimeter of the town?
A It's very big.
Q And everywhere there were SS?
A It was completely surrounded by SS. We could not get through.
Q You mean the whole town?
A I was not everywhere. I was there where I attempted to get out; and there it was blocked.
Q Where did you want to get out.
A I wanted to leave the town near the hospital, near the northwest. I wanted to go to the station.
Q Oh, the station? Well, I quite believe that troops were there.
A That was my only other possibility because all other roads went into the town, so I had to go in to the town. There they grabbed hold of me; and I was driven towards the citadel. There I saw everything which I described.
Q How did you see that the bridge had been repaired?
A The bridge had been destroyed first, but then you could use it again; and so one could see that it had been repaired. You couldn't use it entirely, perhaps; but you could cross over on it.
Q Were there Ukrainian or Polish militia in your town at the time?
A No Polish militia, but we had Ukrainian militia. This was organized only towards the 5th and 6th of July.
Q No militia on the 3rd?
A No, there was only the civilian population.
Q I see. Was the civilian population incensed?
A How do you mean?
Q Was the civilian population angry?
A Yes, some of them were angry.
Q I don't see why they should be angry.
A Nor do I, I don't know the reason. We lived in close harmony with these same people until the SS came in. They were our neighbors, our friends.
Q How were relations between Ukrainians and Poles? Are you of Polish nationality?
A I am a Jew.
Q Yes, but what is your nationality?
A Polish. Relations between Poles and Ukrainians were completely quiet and harmonious as long as Poland existed.
Q Why did one party suddenly beat or kill the other party?
A The Ukrainians did not kill Poles; they only killed Jews.
Q How were relations between Ukrainians and Jews?
A Throughout the period of the Polish sovereignty the relations between Ukrainians and Jews were very friendly. We lived together; we studied together. I collaborated with a friend of mine, a doctor, in the hospital.
Q But how was it that there was suddenly this program?
A The program was organized by the SS, and they took the population along with them, the Ukrainians.
Q Well, look here. You say that it was three days at the most that the German troops were there.
In three days you can't suddenly shake friendly relations. You must indulge in propaganda. You need time. Something must be done, surely. There must have been an ancient wrath, an ancient hatred.
A I know nothing of that. I and my Ukrainian friend lived together very harmoniously as we did with the Poles.
Q What are relations like today?
A Between myself and the Ukrainians relations are excellent. I have a Ukrainian Camp under my supervision; and I'm quite sure that everybody would do his utmost for me.
Q No, I mean over there in Poland.
A I don't know what things are like in Poland today.
Q You say the trucks there had unloaded their food supplies in the hospital?
A The hospital was evacuated into a school. This was an enormous building subdivided into two parts. One part was used for the hospital, and the other had a special entrance. That was used as a depot where these food supplies were stored.
Q Were these reserves for the hospital, so to speak?
A No. No, these were for the troops.
Q I see. This must have been a unit, in other words, which supplied troops which were to arrive later on.
A I couldn't tell you because the food which was unloaded was again loaded on other trucks three hours later and taken somewhere else. This was a transient depot. Nothing was issued from it to the town. Even the hospital received nothing from it. We lived on what the population gave us.
Q Were you yourself at the bakery?
A No.
Q You say with the utmost certainty that you did not see other troops except the SS?
A On that day I saw only the SS. In the evening there were two members of the Wehrmacht in our hospital. They spoke up alone.
Q You said that posters had been posted stating that one should volunteer to work?
A I did not say anything about posters.
Q You didn't?
A I merely spoke of a proclamation that one should come and volunteer.
Q How was this made known?
A Two Jews were called there and told to tell the population to volunteer for work.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any questions by other counsel? The witness may be excused.
DR. BERGOLD: If the Tribunal please, the Tribunal have been kind enough to permit me to call three witnesses, who are witnesses who were in Wewelsburg Camp. That have arrived this morning and are sitting outside on the bench. I must apologize for being unable to observe the time limit by announcing these witnesses' appearance seventytwo hours ahead to the prosecution. I did not know when they would arrive, however. If Mr. Robbins agrees, I should be prepared to call these three men as witnesses. I take it that the Court would agree?
THE PRESIDENT: We'll agree for Mr. Robbins.
DR. BERGOLD: Then could Herr Wilhelm Krause be called as the first witness, please?
MR. ROBBINS: It may be, if the Tribunal please, that we can save some time by a stipulation here. If Dr. Bergold says that these witnesses are going to testify to the fact that they were inmates at Wewelsburg and that they did not see the defendant Klein there, which I understand is the point for which they are being called, I am willing to stipulate that is what they will testify to.
MR. BERGOLD: This is not all that I wish to do. These three men were in Wewelsburg from February 1940 until 1945 and neither saw Klein nor even heard his name. If Mr. Robbins only stipulates that the three witnesses have not seen Klein, that would not be quite sufficient. I also want to prove that, although they had been in Wewelsburg for five years, they did not even hear Klein's name. This is of importance to me because the witness Schwarz has testified that he had heard from comrades about Klein. Now, it is a wellknown fact that the inmates in camps are extremely well informed always as to who was responsible for their lot and as to whom they had to deal with. If these three inmates, who were in Wewelsburg for five years throughout this time did not even hear Klein's name, one might deduce from that Klein had nothing to do with Wewelsburg Camp as such. This is what I wish to prove.
MR. ROBBINS: If Dr. Bergold tells me that that's what they are going to testify to, I'm willing to stipulate, in order to avoid the necessity of calling them, that is what they will testify to. I don't consider it a very important point; and I am willing to concede that is what they will testify to.
DR. BERGOLD: Now, after all, these three men have travelled a long distance at the request of the Court. Perhaps we can hear only one of them.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, let's hear all three of them, but briefly. It will be a great disappointment to them to take this long trip down here and then have the door shut in their faces. Let's have some consideration for the witnesses, but briefly.
DR. BERGOLD: Very well. There is one request, if the Tribunal please. These three witnesses are Jehovah's Witnesses; and because of their faith they are not permitted to give an oath by quoting the name of God, lest there be any conflicts with their faith; and I believe that the Court in accordance with the freedom usually in America will not force the witnesses to do something against their faith.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
DR. BERGOLD: They also request that they not be required to raise their right hands because that again would be a violation of their faith. However, they will confirm everything else.
WILHELM KRAUSE, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, will you repeat after me:
I affirm that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, will you please give your full name to the Tribunal?
A Krause, and my Christian name is Wilhelm.
Q When were you born?
A On the 8th of January 1891.
Q Where?
A In Neuschweinitz, in the area of Lauban in Silesia.
Q You are now a resident of Wewelsburg, are you?
A Yes.
Q Witness, is it true that because of your religious convictions you were committed to a concentration camp?
A Yes.
Q Is it also true that this happened in 1935 or 1936?
A It happened in 1936; but then I was sent to a prison rather than to a concentration camp.
Q You were sentenced by an orderly court?
A By the Special Court in Berlin.
Q Is it true that between February 1940 and 1945 you were in the Wewelsburg Camp?
A Yes.
Q Witness, in that period of time did you see the defendant Horst Klein in the camp?
A I cannot recall.
DR. BERGOLD: Will defendant Horst Klein please get up?
(The defendant Horst Klein rises.)
Q Look at this man.
A No, I don't know him.
Q You don't know him? Thank you. Did you in that period of time between 1940 and 1945 hear his name mentioned in the concentration camp?
A I don't think so.
Q. Did you not hear that he was the superior officer to the Camp Leader Haas, or who did you think was the superior officer of the Camp Commandant Haas?
A We thought the superior officers of the camp to be the people in Berlin of the Group Command, Group Command Berlin.
Q Whom do you mean by that? What is his name?
A Well, as far as I knew, particularly Herr Gluecks.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you. I have no further questions of this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross examination, Mr. Robbins?
MR. ROBBINS: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other counsel wish to cross examine?
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness, did you say you were first taken into custody in 1936?
A I was sent to a prison in 1936.
Q For what reason?
A Because according to the indictment I have worked for the International Association of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Q Well, was that a crime under German law?
AAccording to the views held at the time by those in power.
Q That was three years before the war?
A Yes, quite.
Q And you were imprisoned. Did you stay in prison then from 1936 to 1945, either in prison or in camp?
A In March of 1938 I was sent to the Sachsenhausen Camp. Until that time I had been in a number of prisons.
Q Then from 1936 to 1945 you were either in prison or in a concentration camp the entire time?
A Yes.
Q That's about nine years?
A Yes.
Q And the cause of your imprisonment was your religious belief?
A Yes.
Q Had you committed any other crime?
A I was never accused of any crime nor punished for one.
Q Nine years in prison because you held a certain belief in God?
A Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: That's all.
DR. BERGOLD: May I say this, your Honors. According to the German law at the time the International Association of Jehovah's Witnesses had been suppressed and it was then an offense according to the laws of the time to belong to an association which had been forbidden. That was the offense of which this witness had been accused. Is this correct, Witness?
A Yes.
BY THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE PHILLIPS):
Q Witness, while you were at Wewelsburg, did you see any mistreatment of the inmates there?
A I'm somewhat hard of hearing. I can't hear.
(The interpreter repeated the question.)
A Of course, I saw that frequently.
Q What did you see?
AAbove all how they were being beaten; even in the morning in the roll call; in their barracks also; moreover, when they worked.
Q Did you see any worked to death?
A I saw that, too.
Q Did you see any shot?
A Yes, some were shot as well.
Q Did you see any beaten to death?
A I was not present myself, because I worked in the nursery garden. Usually I was not present at the places of work where these things occurred; but I saw a great many when they were dead, or when they were being carried in from the place of work.