Q. Are you familiar with the Nordland Publishing Corporation, witness?
A. It did not mean anything to me up to today.
Q. No further questions.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: (Counsel for the defendant August Frank.)
Witness, the President of this Tribunal asked you just now whether a Major General or Lieutenant General could object to any order, could protest against it and you answered that in the affirmative. You said that it had been the duty of these officers to do so. Now, I want to ask you what insight you had into the command and conditions insofar as officers of the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS were concerned. You held high rank, were you able to answer that question in the affirmative from you own experience?
A. Only to a certain extent from my own experiences. Before I was assigned to an Infantry regiment as a soldier, I was approximately ten days together with General Field Marshal Paulus and I was able to observe him and his activities during his entire working day. I saw how orders arrived, I saw the manner in which they were carried out. Together with him I sent to points and sectors where combat was taking place and things of that sort. If I said before that a high ranking officer could protest, then I would like to say now that it would have been more correct for me to say that he could "remonstrate." He could not simply say I am not going to follow this order, that would have confronted him with the question of his life, but first of all he could quietly accept and order and then he could work against that order. I have seen that on several occasions in Paulus' headquarters. Beyond that of my position in the Ministry, I had sufficient insight into things and also in the conditions, which prevailed in the O.K.W. For example of that, I knew that in this sphere there was not only direct disciplinary orders and obedience, but also an exchange of opinions there.
Q. Witness, it is certain that on a higher level there is still a certain exchange of opinions. However, if the Fuehrer - and this did not always have to be Hitler but could be a chief or commander in chief of the O.K.W. - if he seriously wanted to have an order carried out, could a general under his command then raise an objection and as you stated before, was it his duty to do that; just how do you come to the conclusion that this was his duty?
A. From the moral fundamental law of every organization.
Q. Did this also apply in the Third Reich?
A. Yes it also applied in the Third Reich.
THE PRESIDENT: Of course the Court's question applied only to illegal orders, orders to commit unlawful acts or acts in violation of the rules of war, orders which should not be issued. No officer would have a right to protest against an order to march his command down the street or to a certain point, but if an order came through to shoot all the five year old children in a city, he would have a right to protest or to remonstrate - of there is any difference?
THE WITNESS: I can only say that there is not a power in the world which can give another human being the power to shoot a child.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: And if Himmler ordered it?
THE WITNESS: Not even then.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Thank you.
DR. HOFFMANN: Witness, in the course of this trial rumors have been mentioned and I would like to hear from you first what probative value these rumors had within the Third Reich and whether any official steps were taken against these rumors?
THE WITNESS: Rumors never have any probative value. Rumors, how ever, can contain a certain degree of truth.
In the Third Reich they were frequently very troublesome so that entire campaigns were organized against rumors and it was intended that people who started rumors were to be discredited.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Herr Fritsche, isn't it true that starting a rumor is one of the most effective weapons of the propagandist?
A. It is not the best weapon, but it is the most effective.
Q. Well, yes. We are splitting hairs.
A. I was just going to continue and I wanted to say that in the end rumors were used for purposes of our own propaganda.
Q. The rumors that were forbidden were the ones that were not favorable?
A. Naturally.
Q. Those are bad rumors?
A. Yes, it was all the bad ones. Propaganda unfortunately is always very primitive and it always paints the colors of black and white.
Q. Propaganda is primitive because it appeals to the most primitive in people, it does not appeal to their intelligence, does it? It appeals to their passions and their hates?
A. The bad propaganda, yes. I cannot help it but I have to say that.
Q. Well, do people act more readily through an appeal to their hate, prejudice and passions than they do to their intelligence; is that true?
A. Yes, unfortunately.
Q. That is good, high-class propaganda, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. That is all.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, last week I announced that the prosecution would like to call a witness who would testify as to the public nature of the atrocities that were committed at Czloshov while the Viking Division was there and if it please the Tribunal, we have the witness here now. I am certain that we can finish the direct examination before the noon hour.
THE PRESIDENT: Alright.
MR. ROBBINS: His name is Dr. Salomon Jollek and he is a doctor in a near-by city and we would like to return his as soon as possible.
DR. FICHT: (Counsel for the defendant Klein.) Your Honor, I would like to announce now that the three witnesses from Wewelsburg will be at the disposal of the Court from this afternoon on if the Tribunal is ready to hear them.
THE PRESIDENT: We are ready to hear any witnesses that there are left to be heard and if you will bring them to the witness stand, as soon as this witness is finished, we will hear them.
DR. FICHT: After the noon recess?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
MR. BOBBINS: If it please the Tribunal, Mr. Ponger will interrogate the witness.
DR. SOLOMON JOLLEK; a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. What is your name?
A. Solomon Jollek.
Q. Will you raise your right hand and repeat this oath after me?
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. PONGER:
Q. Witness, will you please tell your name to the Tribunal?
A. It is Jollek.
Q. What is your first name?
A. My first name is Solomon.
Q. When were you born?
A. I was born on 16 February 1909.
Q. Where were you born?
A. Potkanin.
Q. Is it in Poland?
A. Yes, it is in Poland.
Q. Where are you residing now?
A. I live at Degendorf.
Q. What is your profession?
A. I am a physician.
Q. Where did you practise your profession?
A. Since 1937 I practised at Csloshav.
Q. Were you also at Csloshov when the German units occupied Czloshov?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you please tell the Tribunal in your own words just what happened when the city was taken?
A. The city was occupied on the 1st or the 2nd of July and during the first two days individual murders took place in the city. People were shot whenever they showed themselves in the streets. Only on the third morning the organization program took place at Czloshov and the people were called upon to report voluntarily for work. At the same time, the SS went from house to house and took the people out of the houses and told them that they were to be taken for work. In this way people is the city believed everything was going in order and they began to show themselves voluntarily and they came out of their hiding places voluntarily. When a large number of people were in the streets, they were taken in and direction of the citadel.
Q. Can I interrupt you for a moment? When you talk about people to whom are you referring?
A. That is to say I was one of the people.
Q. When you say "we" are you referring to Jews?
A. Yes, I am referring to Jews. When I am referring to the population now, I only mean the Jews. However, I cannot say "we" in this case as my turn came later on. The Jews were taken through the streets in the direction of the citadel and inhumane beatings took place.
When this was going on there were beatings with iron rods and other objects and at the same time shootings were going on so that more and more victims were lying in the streets. One of these victims was the Rabbi of the city, he was beaten in an inhuman manner and afterwards he was shot.
These people were driven toward the direction of the citadel. There was a bridge in the direction of the citadel and then many steps went up to the citadel. Along the entire road, the SS were standing there, row by row, and they were armed with rifle buts, with sticks, etc, and terrible beatings were meted out. They did not even look where the blows were falling.
At the citadel, I would also like to say, from the moment on when I arrived at that time corpses had been excoriated by the Jews. I cannot tell you the number of corpses there, but there were approximately twenty.
We were driven onto the ditch, but first of all we were ordered to enlarge the ditch and then the Jews were driven into the ditch. We were beaten up so that we would be place ourselves closely to one another and so there would be more room available. Whoever could not move quickly enough was shot done immediately. On the occasion I received a blow and I collapsed. When I regained consciousness I noticed that at the side of the wall there was a big gap which had been caused by an artillery shell. I succeeded in crawling into this hole and then 2 terrible shooting began, handgrenades were thrown at the people and they were also fired upon with machine guns. That is what happened continually until four O'clock in the afternoon. Then a Higher SS officer arrived. He looked at the scene and then he walked off. After he left the shooting interrupted. I succeeded in climbing over the wall of the citadel at night and I was able to get back home by making a detour.
Q. What happened to the Jews, who were dead in the trenches; what was done with their bodies?
A. They were covered with a thin layer of earth and nobody checked to see whether they were alive or dead. That many of them lived is shown by the fact that many people, a large number perhaps 30 or 40, succeeded in leaving this particular ditch and in saving themselves. One of them was a friend of mine.
Q. Did your friend tell you about this? Did you understand my question?
A. Yes, excuse me please. This friend came to see me after three days had passed. The stench which he carried with him was terrible. I received him at my home. I washed him and I discovered that the joint of the elbow in his left arm had been injured by shrapnel from a hand grenade and it was completely torn. The right arm had bluish color, as a result of the beatings he had received with sticks.
With considerable effort, because he was afraid, I was able to get him to come along with me to the hospital as even in day time it was very unsafe there. On the following day, however, I succeeded in taking him to the hospital and there I amputated his left hand, after a week had passed it became evident that his right hand could not be saved either and I had to amputate his right hand. He died of a general sepsis. Things of that kind occurred in numerous cases, I have seen it with my own eyes, because I was working as a physician at the hospital.
Q. Doctor, you have described to us briefly what took place at the citadel. If I understood you correctly, you said that this happened on the first week of the occupation?
A. It was on the third of July.
Q. What year was it?
A. It was in the year of 1941. It was directly after the outbreak of the Russian war, ten days must have passed since the outbreak of the war. The German soldiers only had been in our city for two or three days, it was at the very beginning.
Q. Doctor, you have previously mentioned that you had to pass a bridge at Czloshov; what bridge was that?
A. That is a very small bridge which connects the main road from Lemberg Czloshov and Taropol.
Q. Did you pass this bridge?
A. We had to pass this bridge on order to reach the citadel. At the same time it is also the main road to the east and the citadel is located to the east of the city.
Q. Could this bridge be driven ever by vehicles, or was it damaged?
A. The bridge was fixed up. It was repaired, it could be seen that the bridge had been damaged. Of course, in the psychological condition in which I was at the time, I could not see to what extent it had been damaged or repaired.
Q. Do you know who repaired the bridge?
A. The bridge was repaired by the Jews and the Jews suffered severe beatings when doing this work. Not only shot was fired there.
Q. Well, how do you mean that?
A. Not only one shot bat several shots were fired there. The bridge was very necessary for the German advance toward the east because it was the most important link between Lemberg and Tarnopol. That is to say these people were immediately forced to repair the bridge and on this occasion barbarous measures were used.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess until one thirty five.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1335 Hours.
(The Tribunal recessed until 1335 o'clock.)
AFTERNOON SESSION "The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, September 3, 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
SALOMON JOLLEK - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION - Continued BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Dr. Jollek, there are just one or two other questions I would like to ask you. You were telling us about the atrocities that happened at Zclotzow and you were about to tell us about the killings at the bridge. Will you please continue?
A. I did not see killings only at the citadel and the bridge, but also throughout the city. At the bridge, for the workers who worked there the payment was a bullet. There were bomb craters in the town on a small meadow, for instance; there 20 to 25 people were shot down.
Q. And do you know what happened to the Jews who worked on the bridge after the work was completed?
THE PRESIDENT: He answered that.
A. After they had finished their work, but even during their work, they were shot down and new workers were always being driven there. Near the bridge there was a bomb crater and there dead and injured Jews were thrown in and shot.
Q. Now, you told us that the city was occupied for the first time on the 1st of July?
A. Yes.
Q. And what troops came in on the 1st of July?
A. On the 1st day it was the Wehrmacht who was in the city. They conquered the city and they left; I don't know whether it was on the same day or the second day and then the SS came in.
Q. Was that on the second day?
A. Yes, that was on the second day.
Q. That was on the 2d day of July, 1941?
A. Yes, quite.
Q. And were there killings during the first day of July?
A. Not very much was done on the first day. Certain isolated cases of killings did occur, however.
Q. And did killings of the civilians take place on the second day?
A. Yes.
Q. And did they continue on the third day of July?
A. On the second day they began on a small scale; they were shot at, while they were in the street, when they happened to be in the street, but on the third day we had an organized pogrom.
Q. How many Jews were killed at Zclotzow in the first days of July?
A. The estimate was between 3,000 and 3,500 people.
Q. Did you notice of insignia of any of the SS troops while they were in Zclotzow?
A. Yes, one could see that. They wore a death head and two "SS" in the form of lightening, a flash. Then also they had insignia on the hand and I cannot recall what it read.
Q. Could you see any insignia on the trucks?
A. Yes, I saw insignia on the first two days, the second and third days, it was an insignia in the form of a swastika with round edges.
A. Will you take this paper and draw the insignia that you saw on the trucks?
A. (The witness complied.)
Q. Will you hold it up so we can see it?
A. (The witness complied.)
Q. Have you been told at any time what that insignia stands for?
A. I did not know what it meant at the time, but I was told only a few weeks ago. I have heard that from somebody from our town, a boy told me that this was an insignia of an SS division.
Q. And did he tell you what division this was the insignia of?
A. Yes, I was told that this was the insignia of the Viking Division.
Q. How many trucks at Zclotzow did you see with this insignia?
A. Hundreds of them on trucks and cars.
Q. And what were these trucks carrying?
A. They carried food. They were covered boxes and they had a magazine for food supplies near the hospital -- not near the hospital actually, but in the same building and there they unloaded these food supplies.
Q. And was this an entire division?
A. I am afraid I couldn't tell you; I am not sure.
Q. Do you know whether baking was being done in the city by this division?
A. Yes. Opposite the citadel 200 or 300 metres, there was a factory for bricks and there the bakery was installed. Jews were taken there too to do some work.
Q. Can you say whether or not the troops from the division which bore this insignia took part in the killings of the civilian population?
A. There were no other troops, but it was only that division, the SS troops, and they took part in these killings and murders. They actually carried out the murders. They did not only take part.
Q. I believe you told me, Witness, that your whole family was killed during these days in July, is that correct?
A. My sister-in-law was taken away and up to the citadel. There she was very severely injured, but she succeeded in escaping from the citadel, but as the wounds were exposed to the dirt for a long time, she contracted tetanus and died from the consequences in our hospital.
Q. One last question. Did you see any other insignia that you could identify today of the troops that were occupying Zclotzow?
A. In the first days I only saw this insignia. Later on I saw SS signs in the form of a key, but that I only saw later on, not at first.
Q. Do you know what insignia that is?
A. I did not know what the key stood for.
Q. Do you know today what it stands for?
A. I know the significance of it, yes, today.
Q. What is it then?
A. This was the Adolf Hitler Leibstandarte.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you lose any other relatives in the citadel besides your sister-in-law?
THE WITNESS: No, I lost a sister; I lost my son, but not in the citadel, only later on.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you lose them on the same occasion, at the same time in July?
THE WITNESS: No, this was much later. This was in 1943.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. VON STAKELBERG (ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT FANSLAU):
Q. Witness, since when are you here in Nurnberg?
A. since today.
Q. Have you not been interviewed by the prosecution before?
A. I was interrogated today.
Q. How did you get here? Were you requested?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you volunteer?
A. Yes.
Q. How did it come about that you volunteered?
A. There was a Historical Jewish Commission in Munich and they know what I went through in Zclotzow.
Q. And they invited you to come here?
A. I received a telegram directly from here.
Q. From here? And before that you had no contact with the prosecution?
A. Before this I met in Munich a man who told me that he had been sent by this Historical Commission and that there was a trial in Nurnberg where the Zclotzow complex had been touched upon.
Q. When was that?
A. Last week.
Q. You met him in Munich, did you?
A. Yes, I was in Munich at the time.
Q. I thought you were in Deggendorf.
A. Yes, of course, I am in Deggendorf, but I happened to be in Munich.
Q. Were you told what other witnesses have told us here?
A. No.
Q. You said that since 1937 you had been in Zclotzow?
A. Yes.
Q. As a doctor?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you want to go back?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. I have lost everything there. I have nothing to look for there and I don't want to live on graves.
Q. Do you wish to remain in Deggendorf?
A. No, I want to emigrate.
Q. You said that on the 3d of July a organized pogrom was started in Zclotzow. How do you recall that date so well, the 3d of July?
A. So many victims were killed on that day and we saw it, this date will always be in my memory.
Q. But you don't recall when the first invasion reached Zclotzow?
A. I don't recall exactly the date, but I remember very well how this came about, because I happened to be on night duty in the Hospital.
Q. If you know so exactly that the pogrom started on the 3d of July you should also remember when the invasion was.
A. Two or three days previously.
Q. Well, well. This is very uncertain. Who carried out the pogrom?
A. The SS.
Q. And did the civilian population take part?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you know the SS carried it out?
A. Because the leaders were the SS. They went from house to house and dragged the people out. The civilian population had only been used to assist them.
Q. Where were you at the time?
A. I was in the hospital.
Q. And did you see how the SS went into the houses?
A. Yes, because the SS also kicked me out of the hospital and drove me through the town.
Q. Is the hospital not in the town?
A. The hospital is on the fringes of the town.
Q. Eastern or western fringes?
A. Near the station. It must be northwest.
Q. Northwest? Describe to me the uniform of these men whom you describe as SS men.
A. On the caps they wear a skull, a death head.
Q. What sort of caps were they wearing? Did they not wear steel helmets?
A. Not all of them.
Q. Well, go on; what were they wearing?
A. Where the Wehrmacht usually wears their insignia they had the death head.
Q. Where does the Wehrmacht carry its insignia?
A. Well, it is a sort of a button they wear on their cap.
Q. I know what you mean, but where did they wear it?
A. On the cap.
Q. Yes, but I want to know where.
A. They carried it on the cap.
Q. Tell me, describe this cap more precisely. I want to know what sort of people they were.
A. I am telling you it was a death head on the cap.
Q. What color was the cap?
A. The same one as the Wehrmacht, the same Wehrmacht green color.
Q. And what shape was this cap?
A. They were caps which all soldiers wore, the usual ordinary caps which we also wear.
Q. Well, tell me what was on the front of the cap. What was on the bottom? What was on the top? What was on the right? What was on the left?
A. All I noticed was the death head in front.
Q. Above or below?
A. Above.
Q. And below?
A. I don't remember whether the SS insignia in the form of a flash were on the coat.
Q. Well, we'll talk about the coat presently. What about the steel helmets? What did they look like?
A. I couldn't give you a description. I don't remember.
Q. You don't remember?
A. Although I saw them later on, I don't remember very well.
Q. Perhaps you remember the color, black, gray -
A. I don't remember. Certainly they were not black.
Q. Field gray?
A. Field gray? Well -
Q. And what did the uniforms look like? What sort of uniforms were they wearing?
Black uniforms, brown uniforms, gray uniforms?
A. They wore a field soldier's uniform, not black ones.
Q. If you tell me field soldiers do not wear black uniforms, you are incorrect. There were units who wore black uniforms.
A. Well, I didn't know that. All I know is that black uniforms were worn by those who came along in trucks and took people into the concentration camps.
Q. I mean the Wehrmacht.
A. I never saw the Wehrmacht in black, only in green.
Q. Did you ever see an armored unit, tank unit?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Well, did they wear black uniforms?
A. I saw the tanks only, not the uniforms? I did not see the soldier I can't recall any.
Q. The Viking Division, you said before, you testified that they were members of the Viking Division, but they had a Tank Grenadier Division.
A. I am sorry that I said that. I heard the name Viking by a colleague, but the insignia I did see -- whether they were armored units -hundreds of tanks went through Zclotzow at the time and hundreds of big enormous trucks also went through the city, but whether it was a tank or armored division I don't know.
Q. Well, now you say that the people who were there and whom you describe as SS men, wore gray uniforms?
A. Yes, soldiers uniforms, these gray green field uniforms.
Q. And what sort of insignia were they wearing?
A. I don't remember exactly, but I do remember having seen an insignia of the SS in the form of two "S.S", which looked like lightening.
Q. You saw that on every man?
A. I couldn't tell you that.
Q. But you saw it on some?
A. I believe on almost all of them. They wore a stripe on the cuff here and something was written there, but I don't remember what it looked like.
Q. Well, well. Now you said right on the first day there were victims. How do you know? Did you always go outside on the street and check up on things?
A. I didn't check up on things, but one heard precise details of who had been killed.
Q. You mean what you told us was based on hearsay, is that what you mean?
A. Yes, hearsay.
Q. And on the same day you did not make observations of your own?
A. No.
Q. And what about the third day, what you called the organized pogrom. Why did you use the term "organized"?
A. Well, in the early morning it started in all the streets at the same time, not just one street, and systematically from house to house.
Q. Just a moment. How do you know it was done systematically? How do you know it started simultaneously in all the streets?
A. My family was dragged out. My neighbors were dragged out. My friends in all streets were dragged out.
Q. By the population?
A. By the SS.
Q. And they were driven towards the citadel?
A. Yes, they were driven towards the citadel.
Q. And what were they to do there?
A. They were to dig up corpses.
Q. How did the corpses get there?
A. We were told that these dead Jews had been shot there before the Germans arrived. That is what we were told.
Q. And who did the shooting?
A. The people who were in power at the time, the Soviets.
Q. Who had been shot?
A. Jews and Christians.
Q. Jews and Christians had been shot?
A. Yes.
Q. And what kind of Christians?
A. Ukrainians. That is what the Ukrainians told us what the SS said too, but we are not sure until this day.
Q. Where were you on the 3rd of July?
A. On the 3rd of July I was in the hospital. From the hospital I was kicked out together with all other Jews and this was done by high officers medical officers in the SS.
Q. How did you know that they were high officers?
A. I saw their insignia, gold.
Q. Medical officers?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you know they were medical officers?
A. He told me. I was carrying the Red Cross arm band and he told me to go and when I told him: "After all, I am a doctor I may wear this arm band." He said, "Yes, you are a doctor, but a Jew," and then he said he was a physician.
Q. And he said he was a doctor himself?
A. Yes, he took over the hospital as the main officer in charge. We had to evacuate the hospital.
Q. And from then on the hospital became a Wehrmacht or SS hospital?
A. At the beginning it was a SS hospital, but when they left it was a Wehrmacht hospital.
Q. And that was at the day of the pogrom, when this hospital was taken over and equipped?
A. What happened was this: We doctors were kicked out and the patients remained. They were Russian prisoners of war and civilians, only on the second day the hospital was completely evacuated. First we had to concentrate all the patients into one room, making everything else free for the SS and then they were transported into the town where there was a big school and there the hospital was established.
