Q So you are familiar with the propaganda that Dr. Goebbels put out?
A I had sufficient time to observe it; but I cannot say that I know every single detail of what he published in the proganda line.
Q You say that this magazine that has been printed by the Nordland Publishing Company is worse than anything that Dr. Goebbels put out?
A I wouldn't say that. I would say something else. It is entirely possible that Dr. Goebbels somewhere or other would use equally obvious methods in his propaganda as does this publication; but his real line was much more subtle, and he would not use methods of that sort.
Q Fritsche, you have pointed out several irregularities in the printing of this magazine. You don't come to the conclusion from those irregularities, do you, that the magazine was never published and approved by the SS?
A I am quite sure that this pamphlet, as I'd like to call it. was published and certainly circulated. All I am saying is that it was not published in accordance with the regulations which were in force at the time. No one else but the SS could have afforded to publish a pamphlet like that without giving the name of the responsible person.
Q Did you see any other propaganda that was put out by the SS?
A Of course, I saw some I don't remember at this point definite ones.
Q Did you see any propaganda put out by the SS that is similar to the magazine that you have in your hand?
A The tendency of this magazine is to contain very much typical SS propaganda, only they didn't usually go so far.
Q Isn't it true, Fritsche, that the terms "uebermensch" and "untermensch," that is, "super-human" and "sub-human," were first made popular by Nietzsche?
A The expression "super-man" without a doubt. The term "sub-man" I do not recall have come across in Nietzsche.
Q You would say, wouldn't you, that this magazine follows the general theories of Nietzsche in contrasting the super-man with the sub-human?
A No, I think this is a simplification which I don't think is quite proper.
Q You told us, I believe, that you knew that political prisoners were in the concentration camps?
A What I said was that I did not -- Oh, I'm sorry, political. I thought you meant foreigners. I knew that political prisoners were in concentration camps, yes.
Q Did you think that all of the political prisoners had been given a trial?
A That is a question which at a very early period of time I tried to clear up. I always went back to it. Diehls, was the first man responsible for the State Police, stated expressly that he had create laws which made it impossible for people to be committed to concentration camps without interrogation or trial for a period over and above a certain specified period of a few days. Later on I recall that the most important question put to Heydrich at the press conference which I have mentioned was the one: "Is it possible for people to vanish in concentration camps?" His answer was that he had created a machine whereby the files of every political prisoner, every single one, would be reviewed every three months and a new decision arrived at as to whether he was to remain in custody or not.
Q I still don't have an answer to my question. Did you believe that all of the political inmates in the concentration camps, or even a big part of them, had been given some sort of judicial hearing?
A No.
Q. Did you know anyone yourself who had been in a concentration camp?
A. Quite a few, yes.
Q. Did you know of anyone who had vanished in a concentration camp?
A. I knew a number of men who had been in a concentration camp; and I talked to them afterwards.
Q. Did you know of anyone who disappeared in a concentration camp and was never heard of again?
A. No.
Q. You knew, did you not, that the Jews were disappearing from the streets; they were vanishing from sight in the cities?
A. I know that.
Q. You knew that the mortality rate of the Jews in so-called ghettoes was abnormally high?
A. No, I did not know that.
Q. You don't recall that you gave that testimony to the I.M.T.?
A. It is entirely possible that I gave this information in the framework of along description. If I recall all of this to my mind, I must give you a description of at least four or five sentences. I was in a position to observe the vanishing of Jews.
Q. Excuse me, that could be observed by anyone who lived in any large city, couldn't it?
A. Of course, anyone.
Q. To where were you told that the Jews were being taken?
A. Into special areas, into districts which had been thrown open to the Jews. In the Government General I heard of Theresienstadt. Theresienstadt was not described to me as a concentration camp but as a city which was thrown open to the Jews. Those special areas which were located in the then Government General were also not concentration camps but areas of the size of provinces. I obtained information about them as well.
One of my former colleagues told me. This man was Ob******** srat Kuehl, who was asort of district councillor in Bialla-Podlaska. He described to me how he made every effort to have those Jews who came to him from the Reich accommodated and given some work.
Q. I should like to ask you just one or two additional questions. You heard, didn't you, about the order, which applied to the German troops as they were advancing through Russia, that the Jewish intelligentsia was to be killed?
A. I did not quite get the beginning of the sentence.
Q. You heard about the order that was given to the troops as they were going through Russia, that it would be permissible to kill the Jews and particularly the so-called Jewish intelligentsia? Witness, I want to shorten this examination as much as possible; and if you will just give me a very brief answer, if you can, and answer the question with or no.
A. I cannot answer that question with yes or no.
Q. Well, give me a very brief answer, will you?
A. I cannot answer the question yes or no for one reason, which must be known to you, Mr. Prosecutor. I know one order that Jewish and Ukrainian intelligentsia must be killed. I have given detailed statements about this order; but you put this order in connection with the phrase about its being issued to German soldiers. That is not the case.
Q. To whom was it issued then?
A. An SS officer in the Ukraine of a medium rank who lost his nerve when he received the order fell ill and wrote to me from the institution to which he was sent. He knew me only by name and asked me to take care of these frightful problems and settle them. When I received that letter -- it must have been in February or March of 1942 -I called up Heydrich, asked him for an interview, went and saw him, and asked him most excidedly whether it was the purpose of the SS to kill Jewish and Ukrainian intellectuals. He showed every symptom of indignation and wanted to know how I had heard this.
I did not give the name o* *** man who wrote the letter. I merely described the conditions.
His reply was roughly this: He, Heydrich, had put small SS units at the disposals of Ministers, Governor Generals, and Reich Commissioners. Some abuses had been committed with these guards. Gauleiter Koch had used the SS unit put at his disposal in a very particular manner.
Q. What do you mean by "in a very particular manner"?
A. In order to carry out such killings. Heydrich said that he would investigate these things at once and that I would hear from him again. This conversation took place on Friday afternoon. On Saturday afternoon I received a telephone call from Heydrich from his headquarters. He told me that Gauleiter Koch had confirmed issuing an order of that sort to the SS unit. Koch asserted that Hitler had given him the order. Heydrich said that Hitler could not have been consulted yet but that he would keep me posted. On Monday, two lays later, Heydrich called me again and asked if I would please come to see him. He had returned to Berlin. I looked him up in Prinz-Albrechtstrasse. He then described to me in detail that Hitler had strongly denied having issued an order of that sort to Koch, an order, that is, that Jewish and Ukrainian intellectuals should be killed. Koch had been told that the whole thing was a misunderstanding. The words concerned were "elliminate and exterminate."
Q. Whether or not Hitler issued the order, it was confirmed to you that Koch had used the SS for exterminating Jews? That's what Heydrich told you; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Then did you also hear of an order that was issued to the SS that the captured Soviet Commissars were to be shot?
A. I have heard of an order that Commissars should be shot once they were captured. It was not addressed to the SS, however, but to the Wehrmacht.
Q. Do you know whether that order was carried out or not?
A. I can't give you any information about that because on the day when I heard of the existence of this order, which was in May of 1942. I made every effort to have this order rescinded; and it was rescinded. Simultaneously I was told that although the order had been given, it had not been carried out.
Q. Do you remember that you testified at the IMT that you did not know whether it had been carried out?
A. Very possibly in my memory I confused it with a statement which Paulus made here. Paulus about whose Army I heard of the order. Paulus in the IMT trial emphasized that this order had never been carried out by his unit.
Q. I believe that you testified at the IMT trial that if you had known about the policy of the Reich to exterminate Jews, that you would not have continued to work in your position for a single hour. I should like to know just what you would have done had you found out a bout the order. Excuse me, first let me ask you this. You do know from the evidence that you heard there in the IMT that there was such a policy of the extermination of the Jews, do you not?
A. I know that from the evidence in the IMT.
Q. And you also know that many of the atrocities which you specified yourself at the time didn't occur, actually did occur; that the inmates were fed inadequately; that they were mistreated and killed. Do you know that?
A. I know that today, yes.
Q. And you knew as early as 1941 or '42 that the Action Reinhardt took place?
A. D do not know what Action Reinhardt is?
Q. You did not hear about that in the IMT?
A. I don't recall the Reinhardt Action - I don't know. No, I don't remember it.
Q. Do you remember hearing in the IMT, and do you know today that thousands of Jews were killed in the Warsaw actions, in the Ghettos?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you know that in 1941, 1942 and 1943 Hoess was killing millions of Jews there at Auschwitz from higher orders?
A. I myself listened to his statement.
Q. Now will you tell me, witness, what steps you would have taken had you known about these things. You say you would not have worked an additional hour. Just what would you have done?
A. I have deliberated on that question for years, and all I can say in reply is I would not have sat down at my desk, in order to make a conspiracy for years from which nothing arose later, I would have taken a gun and would have shot the can down who had given the order.
Q. And would you have resigned from your own position?
A. Please?
Q. You would have resigned from your own position if you could not have stopped the program?
A. I said before I would have done something much more drastic.
Q. I am asking you, if your steps had not stepped the program, you would have stayed in your position?
A. No.
Q. Would you have found some way to have been relieved of your work, is that correct?
A. Undoubtedly.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Herr Fritsche, I would like to ask you a question. I was interested in your statement that pamphlets similar to the one placed before you were distributed and circulated among the German people; that they even became popular; if they became popular, then it must be assumed that they were well liked, and, if they were well liked, then we must assume that the German people approved this ghastly contrast between the unfortunate people and the more fortunate people. Now I don't understand, and I would be happy if you could enlighten me of what happened to the German mentality that it could observe so unfair comparison and not be filled with revulsion, or more than that, perhaps have sympathy for the so called sub-human beings rather than antipathy?
THE WITNESS: May I answer your question at some length?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Well, at some length?
THE WITNESS: I shall choose about five or six sentences, five or six sentences.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(recess)
EXAMINATION BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q Have you thought out the answer?
A Yes, I have Your Honor. I requested that I might put down my answer in more detail because the question touches the psychological core of the German problem.
First of all, I want to look at the technical aspect.
Q Let me say, Herr Fritsche, that I am tremendously interested in the answer that you will give me, and, as much as I would like to listen to a very learned treatsie, which I am sure you could give us, please don't make it too long.
A I shall give it to you in a few sentences. First of all, I want to touch on the technical subject. I believe that the assumption prevails that this literature was sold and that it was bought by many people. However, I do not thick this was the case, believe that, since there is no price stated on this booklet, this pamphlet was printed in a very large number and that it was given away.
The question of why the German people tolerated things of that nature, I can only answer by saying that in 1918 or 1919 something of that sort could not have happened in Germany. It became possible only after a certain opposition group started to fight a radical battle. That is an important sign of National Socialism-that it would admit its own brutality. However, at the same time, it would state that this brutality was necessary in order to overcome the brutality of the opponents.
Even in the street fighting and the wild political meetings which took place, riots occurred. Prior to 1933, Communists and National Socialists we e rejected in equally the same manner because of their radical methods. Then however, National Socialism was not brutal in its characteristics, but only in the methods and the means which it employed.
I do not know whether I have expressed myself clearly.
Q It was very learned, but I don't think that it has an****** specifically and objectively, the question. I'll put it very simply: How could the average German pick up a magazine of that type, look at the picture of a suffering child, and not be filled with sympathy for that child, regardless of the child's nationality?
A Sympathy for the suffering child was exactly aroused.
Q That was not the purpose of the propganda, certainly?
A I think it was. After all, the sympathy was to be aroused for suffering children, and thus-
Q How about the suffering men? How about all these individuals who were regarded as "suh-humans", with their beards and with their unkemptness, and with their raged clothing? Wouldn't that arouse sympathy, rather than antipathy, rather than anger or revulsion, which, of course, was the object of the author of the magazine?
A Revulsion was to be aroused, if I understand the intention correctly, not against the individuals whose pictures were shown here, but against the system which made this misery possible, which tolerated this misery, and also against the system which put these people into power.
Q You have on opposite pages there, as I understand the pamphlet, a picture of a well-fed, healthy looking German, and on the other side the so-called "sub-human" in all his dirt and squalor. Now, the author intends that the reader shall be very much annoyed with the so-called sub-human and be filled with pride at the clean, well shaven German.
A Quite right.
Q Well, now, a person who has the intelligence of a ten year old child will realize that this person who is unshaven and has poor clothing and is sick and isn't even too intelligent, is not that way because he wants to be that way but because economic circumstances have forced him into that situation.
A You are quite right, Your Honor. Here we go beyond the economic factor and we come to the race struggle.
However, one confrontation here is significant. It shows that the ideals of two systems were confronting each other. That is at the place where not nature is being shown but art--our own art and the art of the enemy. In order to speak the language of the booklet here, the German ideal of beauty is given, and here the Soviet product is being shown (indicating), and now it is stated here that this was the ideal of beauty, which however, is not ture.
Q Such views vary. I am not concerned about that. I was concerned with the more fundamental things of health and disease. Just one more question, Herr Fritscho, and that is all. You will notice on one page pictures of Rossevelt, Stalin, LaGuardia and Churchill. I think the inscription, although I do not read German, is to the effect that they have in themselves the characteristics or the facial delineants of this inferior race. Do you suppose that that kind of an argument is at convincing to an intelligent person?
A It is not convincing in anyway, and I was thinking in particular of this page when I spoke before about the inferiority of this propaganda.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well. Thank you very much.
EXAMINATION BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q Along the same line that Judge Musmanno has interrogated you, I wish to ask you one question. You have described the effect of such a publication and the effect it would have on a man of your education and learning. Would it not have a much different effect upon the masses of the SS when they saw that it was an SS publication, published by one of its own Main Offices?
A I don't believe that fundamentally the effect would be any different, because the taste does not depend on training; it either exists or it does not exist. Now, if an SS office had issued this literature, then the author in my opinion made a mistake with regard to the psychology of those to whom this booklet was distributed.
I don't believe that Upon the SS or the people this booklet would have had any positive effect. I believe upon the SS, as well as upon the people, it Would have had an effect of revulsion.
Q Well, it is not disputed that it was published by the Nordland Publishing Company and one of the Main Offices of the SS; that is shown upon the publication itself. You do not think when a member of the SS would see this publication, that it would have no more effect upon him than if it had been published by some one else?
A I believe that an SS man was more impressed by the booklet if he considered it to be an official SS publication. I have the impression from the introduction to this booklet that this booklet was published on the initiative of Himmler, because it is mentioned in some part of the introduction to this book. Only in this way can it be explained that probably a large sum of money was invested in the publication of this literature, which did not pay off in the end, however, and it could be observed quite frequently that Himmler as well as Hitler and also Goebbels, did not have the right idea of the effects of their propaganda on the mass of their people, because they thought that the broad masses were much more primitive than was actually the case.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: All right.
RE DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q Witness, I would like to go on from these last few questions, which were very interesting. Tell me this from your propaganda experience: In the course of time were you able to observe that the people considered the official propaganda--that is to say, the propaganda which came from the SS or some other agency--as being not as credible as publications coming from completely different sources?
A That is quite correct. The people refuted opinions which could be clearly recognized as coming from official sources, and they refuted them more than opinions which at least seemed to have same form of free expression.
Q From your propagandist activity, can you recall that, in cognizance of this fact, important propaganda publications were made which perhaps were printed at the expense of some Party agency or the State, but where it was carefully aboided that this fact was actually expressed in these publications?
A That happened, without any doubt. However, at the moment, I can not give you an individual example of that.
Q If, therefore, a booklet of this kind was officially provided with the SS stamp and an introduction by Himmler, would you then say an expert that this was extremely clumsy?
A Well, the introduction has nothing to do with my opinion. I think it was done in a very unprofessional fashion.
Q It has further been discussed here how these pictures of unfortunate and suffering people affected the population. As far as concentration camp inmates and concentration camp children are concerned, have you ever seen any pictures of them?
A Yes, in part, as far as I was able to look at them in the various prisons where I was kept.
Q Therefore, unfortunate people were also shown there, and may I ask you (a) to what feelings did these pictures appeal with regard to these people, and (b) why were they shown in this very unfortunate and regrettable part? Just what was the propagandists background for that?
A It could not have been any other idea than that anger was to be aroused against those people who could be found guilty of having caused the unfortunate conditions which are shown there.
Q Is that the came thought which came to you when you looked at these pictures of the ill dressed people and children there -- that anger was to be aroused, not against the unfortunate child but through sympathy with the child against those who had caused these bad economic conditions?
A Yes, without any doubt this part of the booklet had that particular tendency.
Q Witness, in the cross examination several questions were put to you, where the disappearance of Jews from the streets was concerned, did you bring the disappearance of these people into connection with the concentration camps, or did you have an opinion about the new location of these Jews which had nothing to do with the concentration camps in that actual sense?
A I was trying to explain this before. We did not bring the disappearance of the Jews into connection with the concentration camps but with the development of reservations which would lead later on to autochratix states which were to be governed by the Jews themselves. I mentioned one of them, and with regard to this particular case I received reports That was the district of Biala-Podlaska.
Q In the direct examination and the cross examination, you have repeatedly mentioned Heydrich. Perhaps it would be well if you would tell the Tribunal briefly, first of all, whether Heydrich, according to your knowledge, had anything to do with the WVHA and, secondly, what functions Heydrich carried out in the various groups, the SS, the Waffen SS, the Gestapo, and the Goneral-SS. Just where did he belong?
THE PRESIDENT: I think we know the answers on that, Dr. Haensel. We know that Heydrich had no relation to the WVHA, and we know what his field of activity was.
BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q Witness, you stated that if you hod been aware of the full truth of what was actually going on you would have gone so far as to take a pistol and shoot down the person who was responsible for it, and there is only one who bears the full responsibility.
Would you have realized that you would have had to pay for this with your life?
A I have had to pay for it much more that I did not know it, and that I did not do it.
Q Witness, you were asked by the Prosecution whether, in cognizance of these circumstances you would also have resigned from your position. If, during the war, in this fashion you had left your position would that have had the same result in the end as if you had shot somebody?
A No, I am not of that opinion at all. I could have found a thousand reasons for resigning my position. After all, I did it on one occasion. I did this for a certain reason, which I do not want to mention here because it goes too far, but then in March 1942 I resigned my position as the director of the Office for the German Press and I became a soldier. I did not have the intention of ever returning to the Ministry of Propaganda. Only when a new development arose and certain promises and assurances were made, in November or December 1942 these assurances and promises caused me to return.
Q Well, that is the possibility for a civilian to become a soldier; that is what you are thinking of now. If somebody was a soldier at the time, could he then resign his position without any danger for his life?
AA soldier could not resign his position. Acivilian could do it.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Could a soldier protest?
A I would like to answer this question with No. However, he could fail to carry out an order.
Q Well, let's say that the soldier is a major general or lieutenant general. Are his lips sealed, or can he express his opinion and protest if he wishes?
A Not only can he do it, but he has the right to do it and it is actually his duty to do so.
RE*CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q I understood your answer to be, witness, that you would have resigned your position, even though it would have meant your death, if that had been the case, is that correct?
A No. In answer, to various questions, I have given the following answers: One: I would have shot; two: I would have resigned, and without any doubt I would have had the possibility of resigning without as a result of this having any danger to my life.
Q Witness, I would like just to ask you two or three questions additionally: Will you look at this letter, which is Berger's letter to Himmler regarding the publication "Sub-Human" and just read to yourself the first paragraph. It is quite short.
A Do you want me to read it aloud?
Q No, just road it to yourself. If that copy is unclear, there is another one there.
A I have just finished reading the first paragraph.
Q You can see from this letter that Burger, the Chief of the Main Office-SS and Himmler, and Schwarz, the Treasurer of the Nazi Party, all approved of this publication, do you not?
A I can see it from the contents here, yes.
Q And it is your opinion that these three officials misjudged the effect which this propaganda would have; is that correct?
A I am of that opinion, yes. Convinced of it.
Q You can see from the publication, can you not, that their purpose was to convince the reader that Jews and Russians are sub-humans?
A No.
Q All right, witness, will you turn to the first page, and will you see the quotation that, "The subhuman man, when seen from a biological viewpoint, has hands and feet and a sort of brain, eyes and mouth. Nevertheless, the sub-human man is quite different, a dreadful creature. He is only an imitation of man, with man-resembling features but inferior to any animal, without intellect and soul."
Now, there the publication is not talking about a system; it is talking about people, is it not?
A When I glanced at this article slightly, I, of course, was not able to go into details. I am reading this now for the first time.
Q W'll pass over that. I think it is clear from the text. You know today, do you not, that the SS did, as a matter of fact, participate in wholesale exterminations of the Jews and the Russians; you know that today, do you not? 7304
A. I cannot confirm your question in this form.
Q. Then let me put it in another form; you know that the SS participated in the extermination of the Jews?
A. I cannot answer your question in the affirmative either.
Q. Do you mean you don't know that millions of Jews were killed in concentration camps under the SS?
A. Unfortunately I heard about the fact that millions of Jews were killed in the concentration camps.
Q. Well, you know that is a fact do you not; you believe that?
A. Yes.
Q. You know that Himmler gave orders for the execution of Jews?
A. That Himmler did is news to me. During the research which I have carried out so far after the truth up to now, I have reached the conclusion that Hitler gave the order to Himmler and Heydrich and that Heydrich initiated and organized the execution of this order.
Q. Well, you know that was a part of the program of the SS; don't you?
A. No, that is not known to me.
Q. Well, tell us if you will what part the SS took in carrying out these orders and carrying out the execution of the Jews?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I would be very pleased if I could answer this question. I have done everything in order to make suggestions on my part, as far as a prisoner can do that, in order to find out the full truth about the killing of Jews.
Q. Let me put the question in a different way. If the proof in this case should show that the SS as a matter of fact did participate in a large manner in the execution of Jews and Russians, would you still contend that this sort of propaganda would have no effect on the members of the SS?
A. The possibilities with which you connect your question I do not want to answer that in the affirmative, however, if that had been the case then of course such a magazine should prove to have a certain amount of stimulating and supporting such an activity.