In that period of time I was always in Tschentscher's immediate vicinity.
Q. If I understand you readily, I conclude from that if somebody is in a position to testify to the fact of that Tschentscher did during the Campaign, you would be the person?
A. Yes, I was always next to him, and I could observe and see everything when something happened, or whenever something was going on that company.
Q. Witness, did you hear of another witness here who was called Sauer? Do you know Sauer from the old days?
A. Yes, I know Sauer. He was with the Butcher Platoon, with the Butcher Company, and I met him in Munich once, and lately I met him here when the Prosecution had asked me to become a witness here. I met him I imagine in the Witness' building.
Q. He was with the Third Company, wasn't he?
A. Yes, he was in the Third Company.
Q. Witness, Sauer has told us here about one incident which he said he had seen himself. That incident he reported took place in regard to Mr. Suerth, and what he told us was that Obersharfuehrer Suerth had shot six Jews in a barn. Do you remember Shitomir?
A. Yes, indeed I do. The Supply battalion was then located outside of Shitomir in a sort of farm, and the Baker and Butcher Companies were in Zhitomir itself, in a larger place, sort of barracks. They were farm stable buildings.
Q. The witness Sauer has told us that the Supply Battalion, the Butcher and Baker Companies were located together in a barracks in Zhitomir?
A. No. The Supply Battalion, as emphasized, was located outside of Zhitomir, on a fruit-garden farm, the Butcher and Baker Companies were together in billets.
Q. Together?
A. Yes.
Q. You could not possible make a mistake there?
A. No, I myself was present in this fruit-garden on afarm.
Q. And Tschentscher was there, too?
A. Yes, he was the boss in this camp.
Q. Where was Tschentscher's car?
A. Tschentscher's car was at the top of the camp near the entrance of the main road. There were buildings, several buildings, rather, where the staff was accommodated, the company chief, and next to it there was a large barn where the whole supplies of the Division were stocked.
Q. There was an order that the Supply Battalion was to be located outside of Zhitomir and separated from the Bakery and Butcher Companies. Did you talk to Otto Sauer when you met him first?
A. Yes, Sauer and I lived together in the witness' building, and we talked at length, as for instance, about all the questions which ha been submitted to Otto by the Prosecution, and about which I had been interrogated, and I gave to my of the question my opinion, and of what I knew, and I emphasized the fact that the Supply Battalion had not been located together with the Baker and Butcher Companies. I said to Sauer also that any incident which had occurred with the Supply Battalion, I should have been in a position to know about it. Accordingly, we talked then about one incident which the Prosecution had put to me regarding Tschentscher -
Q. Well, we should talk about that incident later on. But I am interested in it now in this connection of whether Sauer when you talked to him it the time contradicted you, or rather he had a different opinion and whether he admitted that the Supply Battalion was not located together with the Butcher and Baker Battalions?
A. Sauer told me at that time the he knew -- he told me that he knew that we had been located somewhere else, and that the Butcher and Baker companies were located together.
Q. Witness, this alleged incident of the alleged shooting of six Jews by Sureth have you heard about this, if by rumors, perhaps?
A. No, I did not hear one work about that, nor did the Supply Battaling know, they knew nothing about this, not the men at least, and the others also did not know anything about. Quite generally we did not mix too much with the Baker and Butcher Companies, so rarely I would now what did happen to others.
Q. You at any rate heard nothing about this?
A. No, I heard nothing about that incident.
Q. The witness Sauer, although he was then not speaking from his own observation but bases what he daid on hearsay, had mentioned another two incidents; one incident concerned you up to a point. He said that in the Biala-Zierkew camp the defendant Tschentschcr had shot at a Jew, that he missed and had hit the leaders, of officer's car, of your own officer's car, so that you jumped out of the car because you were afraid that you might be hit yourself?
A. I know nothing about that incident. This incident was told to me also by the Prosecution, and I told them in the presence of Otto that this was not so. As I said before I talked to Sauer about it, and I told him that I knew nothing about this incident, or, rather, that the incident had never taken place. I was in a vehicle and I was a driver of the vehicle, but throughout that period of time of my service I never had one shot taken at this vehicle, not even a splinter. It was completely undamaged until the end, and this incident in Biala-Zierkew is not true. I know nothing about it.
Q. Witness, do you still remember Biala-Zierkew very clearly today?
A. Yes, I know this place very well. There was a vinegar factory located there, and there among a number of building there was a large barn where we again stocked our supplies, and in the building itself our Chief, Sturmbahnfuehrer Tschentscher was situated in a room next to mine, where I handled the company money and supplies, and my vehicle was parked in ******er nearby.
Q. It was not a real camp but you were accommodated in a building there?
A. Yes, it was a building.
Q. Witness, it is, of course extremely difficult for us to understand how rumores of this sort can **** about particularly when it is being told in so many details with names, and so forth. Was there some incident perhaps in Biala-Zierkew which might have lead to rumors of this sort being circulated around?
A. Well, near our accommodations there was frequest shooting. I recall one incident very early in the morning. There was a road which lead past our building, and some shots were fires from that road. The reason why was not clearly made known, we were told it must have been done by a sentry or patrol, who had shot at somebody, but any precise details did not become known in the company, but anyway this road was part of the camp, and many units using it had to go back and forth and frequently would park their vehicles every day and night, and it had happened once or twice that some member of one of those strange companies fired a shot.
Q You just said a while ago, or mentioned the word "Camp"?
A Well, I did not mean a camp. I meant this building in which we were.
Q This incident when the sentry fired a shot occurred near the Supply Battalion, or near another unit?
A That incident must have occurred near the main corner of the building or just outside of the building, It was near the building where one of the squadrons was billeted, and in that corner, whether it was now inside or outside of the camp, I could not find out, because I was still asleep, I was told about it afterwards. I assume that it was not near that part of the building in which out companies was, as otherwise we would have heard about it, and you would have learned more precise details.
Q Were these certain squadrons which you mentioned under Tschentscher's command?
A No, the T-Squadron was a unit of the battalion which had to look after the vehicles, in every sense of the word, and they had taken the same billets with us at the time, as I would say there was suitable space where you could look after the engines and so forth.
Q Will you give us the name of the man in charge of the T-Squadron, the commanding officer?
A Yes, this was Oberscharfuehrer Senn, who was in charge of the technical side of the vehicles.
Q witness, was there with the Supply Battalion anything at all which might have been formed as the basis for these rumors, for instance, did the Supply Company employ Jews or anybody else?
A No, I never saw Jews, or Ukranians, or any other foreigners work for the Supply Unit. There were two or three there, but no Jew came into that kitchen; with the T-Squadron there were two or three Ukranians, and one Mongalian, who worked there. They knew all about vehicle.
****** been technicians with the Russian Army, and had become prisoners of war. They were employed by us, and they went along, and t********** being with us. While I was with the Supply Battallion ******* the time, and they had a very good time, and they did not want to leave the unit at all. One of them, the Mongolian he was extremely popular, and he had his legs pulled frequently. As I say, he was highly popular with the company, and nothing was over done to him.
Q Was that Mongolian named Assi's Mossaiew?
A Well, I don't remember his surname. But I still remember the name of Assi. It was the name we used in the company for him.
Q What did he look like?
A He was small, very dark, and brown complexion, and if you looked at him very closely you could see that he was a Mongolian. He was short, and had pock scars.
Q In other words, there was one such, a dark man with your Supply Company?
A Yes.
Q Who was very well known, and was popular, and the people would like to pull his leg. Might there be a grain of truth of these rumors?
A Yes, that is quite possible, as I said before, we pulled his leg very frequently, and he enjoyed it himself. He quite frequently pretended to be shot by somebody, and pretended to be dead, and it was sort of like a Punch and Judy show.
Q But never any harm was done to him?
A No.
Q Was he still with the company when you in 1942 were transferred?
A Yes, I am not quite sure but I think he still was with the company, because he stayed with the supply office for a long period of time. So far as I know on one occasion they were allowed to go back to their home, but most of them who worked with us refused to do so. They wanted to stay with us as volunteers and to work.
Q Witness, there is another incident which Sauer has told us, basing himself on hearsay. He said that a man called Kirsch had told him that Tschentscher ordered him at the point of a gun to shoot a Jew. That is supposed to have happened in Fiodorke. Do you know of Fiodorke, and do you know anything of such an incident?
A I still remember Fiodorke very well. I know nothing of any such incident. I was also accommodated in a building next to the kitchen in a room which was, so far as I remember, next to Tschentscher's room, of any such incident, or order, I never heard anything at all. I am not inclined to believe this because an order of this sort to threaten a man with a gun to make him carry out an order would hardly have been permissible, I can not believe that Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher would have been guilty of such, especially, as Tschentscher was in his company regarded as an extremely correct, even an assiduous, officer. He was feared as such, and nobody would have dared to do something of that nature, because such thing would not have been permissible. If somebody had done anything which was not correct he would hide as much as possible from him.
Q Now witness, could it not be possible that Tschentscher was always correct in all service matters, but perhaps he was indulgent where there was excesses against the civilian population. Will you tell us, please, in greater detail how Tschentscher acted in this respect?
A Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher so far as the civilian population was concerned always behaved very correctly, and so far as I can remember, orders were frequently read according to which looting and excesses against the civilian population were to be severely punished. He himself, I know, never became guilty of anything, and if he had or would have heard anything that somebody on his own had taken any liberties in this respect, I am sure he would have at once have taken severe action. As everybody knew this in the company, as far as I know, then nothing over happened in this respect, which would have needed a more severe punishment, At least, nobody in our company ever heard anything of that sort.
Q Witness, you have told us quite frankly that there was tension between you and Tschentscher. If I understood you correctly, this was caused not by Tschentscher having done anything criminally, or incorrect things, but it seems to me that this was based on Tschentscher's exaggerated correctness?
A Yes, it was a purely disciplinary affair. At the time by vehicle was not quite in shape as it would have been, I was also in charge of the pay-office, and I did not have time to keep my vehicle in shape, as would a driver who would have nothing else to do. This made me feel very indignant, and I told the commanding officer of the T-Squadron that I was no longer able to look after my vehicle properly that I had no time. That if it was left behind, someone else could look after it. That was the incident on the basis of which I was to be punished, but as we went into active service, the trial and punishment was never carried out.
Q I am extremely grateful for your having told us all these things of this exaggerated correctness, and fastidiousness, and the pettiness on the part of Tschentscher, which as you have told us very clearly, not only concerned service matters, but particularly also the conduct towards these civilian populations. Should excesses, looting, mistreatment or anything of that sort have happened, he did not let matters pass by, but he would have done something immediately, had something done, generally?
A Yes, from his reputation in the company we knew him, he was very severe in all matters, and punished for anything and everything that would happen against regulations. Particularly, as I said before, we had special orders from our chief where he would particularly warn us against excesses against the civilian population, and he would have punished severely and heavily.
Q Witness, did Tschentscher expect only the subordinates to be correct, or do you know that he himself behave equally well and correctly? What about that?
A He was a typical officer. He was as would expect an officer to be. He did not expect his company to do something, which he would not do himself. He slept in the vehicles as we did, if we were parked on the road, and when we were in a building he slept in that office where we had worked, and, he was extremely austere, towards the company and himself. Any privileges -- special privileges for the officers, or any other person of the company were never allowed; as I said he was extremely correct in these things.
Q You say quite clearly, if Tschentscher had been more self-indulgent, if from time to time he had killed somebody, had robbed somebody, or allowed himself to commit excesses, and mistreatment and things of this sort, you would have known it, and the company would have known it also?
A Yes, nothing could be kept a secret from the company. If the boss were absent, we knew it then always the driver or somebody else was with him. When he was with the company, we were mostly together in so small a space that everybody saw, heard and knew what was going on in the company, and what the boss had done, and what was said.
Q. Witness, you heard from me what the witness Sauer, in deviation from your testimony and other testimony, has told us here. Can you give us any indication why Sauer should testify to that effect? Do you believe that Sauer was, perhaps, under any sort of pressure, that he is afraid of something?
A. I know nothing of any pressure under which Sauer may have been put, but when I talked to him in Nuernberg about all these things and from what I had noticed, he was very much afraid of Otto. He himself said that Otto was a dangerous man and he was afraid that if he did something which Otto didn't like Otto would later on, on the basis of his position, get him into trouble. I know that when we had lunch one day Otto was in front of us, and he said to me, would we please wait a moment and go behind the wall for a moment because he did not want to see Otto. Otto was a dangerous man. We left until a few people were standing between Otto and us, and we queued up behind him. My impression was that Sauer was very much afraid of Otto. The only possibility is that he said this once again in order to maintain his first testimony because I told him in great detail when Sauer and I talked it over that this was not true.
MR. ROBBINS: Now that the witness has told the facts that he saw, I think there is no need for him to speculate further as to what Sauer was thinking.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the witness has finished now, I think.
I merely meant that the witness had finished the answer to this question.
DR. PRIBILLA: I myself had finished my interrogation.
Or, Your Honor, I was struck by the expression in which he said that Sauer was afraid of Otto because of Otto's position. I did not quite understand what he meant. Perhaps I could ask the witness to explain this to me.
BY DR. PRIBILLA:
Q. What do you mean by "position"?
THE PRESIDENT: He said that Otto, because of his position, might make trouble for him. What did he mean by that?
BY DR. PRIBILLA:
Q. What did you mean by that?
A. Well, when I met Otto in Munich - I happened to run into him on the street - and he told me then that he was working for CIC and had been employed as an agent by them. Otto told me that our Stabscharfuehrer Rinner had been arrested in his, in Otto's, presence in a village.
Q. Is that what you meant by "Otto's position"?
A. Yes, because Sauer believed that from Otto's position he might get into trouble later on.
DR. PRIBILLA: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross examination, Mr. Robbins?
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, were you a member of the Allgemeine-SS?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you join?
A. I joined the Allgemeine-SS on 9 November 1938. I was transferred from the Hitler Youth to the SS.
Q. When did you join the Hitler Youth?
A. I joined the Hitler Youth in 1932.
Q. You joined the Hitler Youth in 1932 and the Allgemeine SS in 1938, and you say you only come within category III of the denazification law?
A. The prosecution put me into that category, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: What is category III, Mr. Robbins?
MR. ROBBINS: It is the so-called "followers". Lesser offenders.
THE WITNESS: Group III is the lesser offenders. Followers would be Group IV.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. When did you join the Nazi Party?
A. I joined the Party on 9 November 1938, when I was transferred to the Allgemeine-SS, and until I was called up in 1939 I was a candidate for the Party.
Q. You don't come under the Christmas amnesty then, do you?
A. I was heavily wounded in the war, seventy percent, and as such I fall under the Christmas amnesty. How this is legally connected with the denazification law I do not know, because I do not know that law so well. All I know is that the public prosecutor who interviewed me told me that he would have made me part of Group III, which becomes clear from the indictment, and as I am injured seventy percent, I can fall under the Christmas amnesty, provided the president of the court will so decide.
Q. You tell us that you never at any time saw any Jews working for the Viking Division?
A. No, I never saw any Jews working for the Viking Division.
Q. Did you see any Jews working for the SS, any part of the SS?
A. No, I have not seen that either.
Q. Did you see Tschentscher and Fanslau at Sclotzow?
A. I remember Sclotzow. But I have not seen there -- that is the place with the citadel, isn't it?
Q. Yes.
A. I remember the place, yes.
Q. Do you remember that that was around the first, second, third, and fourth of July 1941?
A. I don't recall the dates. All I know is that it was right at the beginning of the Russian campaign. The actual dates I cannot recall.
Q. Did you see any dead civilians in Sclotzow?
A. No, I didn't see them. People said later that a mass grave was supposed to have been in the citadel, of Ukranians and German nationals.
Q. I'm not talking about that. I mean civilians who had recently been killed.
A. No, I didn't see that.
Q. Did you walk around in the streets in Sclotzow?
A. No.
Q. How long were you in Sclotzow?
A. We passed through Sclotzow. I was in my vehicle and my vehicle was always in the middle of the company. I myself was a driver and I could never leave my vehicle. When we stopped for a moment, we could go on at any moment without any notice, so I was always with my vehicle.
Q. Excuse me. How long a period of time were yon in the area of Sclotzow?
A. I would assume, roughly, not very long, but I am not quite sure because in the village of Sclotzow we did not take up any accommodations at all, and all I remember is that we passed through the village in our vans, on our advance. I know nothing about any accommodations, billets, or a stay of any period of time.
Q. How long were you in Tarnopol?
A. We were in Tarnopol for several days. I can't tell you how many days. We were outside Tarnopol, about three kilometers outside the town, in a barracks or something like that.
Q. You did not hear while you were in Tarnopol about any civilians being mistreated or killed?
A. Throughout my presence with the supply battalions, I heard of only one case by hearsay, wherein some killing was talked about. That was a place in front of Sclotzow. It was in the Sclotzow-Tarnopol area. The prosecution explained it to me at the time, and Otto led me to this with some precise statements. It must have been the village of Bogdanowka. There we heard that a member of the battalion had shot one or two Jews. I don't know quite how many. This was alleged, and we heard about it in our advance. How much of this was true, whether he had done it, and so forth, we never knew. So many rumors circulated during the advance: One said that we were going to be sent home. The next said, better food. The third one, better PX goods, and suddenly a rumor like that came up. We really didn't believe these statements that were based on hearsay only.
Q. Who, according to the story, was supposed to have shot the Jews?
A. I heard only the name of Senn mentioned. Whether he was alone or whether anybody else was supposed to have been present I don't know. I told this to the prosecution at the time. All I knew was the name of Senn in this connection. I did not hear about any other names or persons.
Q. And that is the only instance that you ever heard of Jews or civilians being mistreated by the SS?
A. Yes, that is the only incident which came to my notice and which I know, and that is only on hearsay.
Q. And you never heard of any criminal activities of the SS of any kind, did you?
A. No, as long as I was with the unit -- certainly nothing before, and as long as I was on active service I never heard anything about that. What I know today is only what I have heard since the capitulation and collapse, in the newspapers, but when I was a member of the SS myself with the unit, I never heard anything at all.
Q. If it were shown here in your testimony that you did have knowledge of the criminal activities of the SS, that would have a bearing on your denazification trial, would it not?
A. I did not quite follow the first part of your question.
Q. If it were show by your testimony here in this courtroom that you did have knowledge of the criminal acts of the SS--
THE PRESIDENT: I think the form of your question is confusing. If you did testify here--- Try it that way.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. If you should testify here, witness, that you did have knowledge of the criminal acts of the SS, that would have a bearing on the result of your denazification proceedings, which are now pending, is that not true?
A. No, that is not true. I believe that it would not be harmful if I had only known something about these things because I, as an NCO and Unterscharfuehrer, could not have prevented these things. And I therefore do not believe that it would be harmful to me, and I do not say that I know nothing for that reason.
I say that I know nothing because I really never heard anything about this.
Q. Were you asked by the public prosecutor if you heard of criminal acts of the SS, about crimes in the concentration camps, about the executions of Jews, and so forth?
A. No, he did not. This was not an oral interrogation. Under Group III of the denazification law, the trial is held in writing, and I therefore have not discussed anything personally with the public prosecutor. I met him only once when he put a few questions to me about certain documents, including my past as a war injured person. He did not ask me about such matters.
DR. PRIBILLA: May it please the Court, I would, like to make an objection to this interrogation. I believe that the witness has said everything he can say about this, and I think he should not be put into a position where he is under duress, up to a point, because the trial, of course, is very much on his mind.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you brought the subject up, Dr. Pribilla. I think the Prosecution has the right to inquire into it if you had, to the same extent that you did. I think you are through, Mr. Robbins, anyway, aren't you?
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Did you hear of the Einsatzgruppen while you were in Russia or Poland?
A. No, I never heard anything about that.
Q. When is the first time that you heard about Einsatzgruppen?
A. When I was interrogated by the Prosecution.
Q. Here in this building?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you see anything of SD men while you were with the Viking Division?
A. Yes, I saw SD men, but never with our unit, nor in its immediate vicinity. In some cases I saw them two or three hundred kilometers behind the front when we went there in order to pick up our supplies, in the Army depot, and whenever the vehicles of the company were not sufficient, I had to take other vehicles along, and there, far back in the rear, we saw these SD men.
Q. Do you recall about what month it was or the location that you saw these SD men?
A. No, I don't remember locations or dates in this connection.
Q. It was September 1941, was it not?
A. I am unable to tell you. I don't think so, because, before September 1941 we were very near--that is to say, we had not penetrated very deep into Russia yet, and for that reason, I don't think that SD groups had been formed yet.
Certainly, not with us in the unit, but later on I saw isolated SD men, not Einsatzgruppen, when we were deep in the Ukraine, the Caucasus, and near Rostow, and there it was that we had to go back to pick up the supplies, because the advance had gone on so quickly. I think also when I returned back to Germany I saw SD men in the stations which we passed, Rostow, for instance.
Q. And you testify that all of that happened after September 1941 and that you did not see SS men before September?
THE PRESIDENT: SD men.
MR. ROBBINS: SD men.
A. I couldn't say that. I did not say that I did not see anybody or that nobody existed. All I know is that prior to that time, whether it was 1 September or 1 October or a few days prior to that,-- I don't know, but all I know is that in the first period of the Russian campaign I saw nobody, because I did not have the opportunity, because I as a paymaster, was with the company all the time, and did not go back to the rear.
Q. It is true, is it not, that Otto went to Munich before he testified here to locate you for the purpose of confirming the testimony which he was going to give?
A. No, the matter with Otto was different. As I said, I ran into him in the street in Munich quite by chance, on some little side street.
Q. I just wanted to find out if you knew that Otto went to Munich to locate you.
A. No, I did not know that. He told me that later on.
Q. He told you that?
A. Yes.
Q. It is true, is it not, that you told both Otto and Sauer the things that you have testified here in Court before they testified here?
A. Yes, Otto and I were together before I was interrogated by the prosecution, and Otto told me on that occasion that a man called Jackal, who was then with the butchers' company, had already testified to everything I could, and that I could easily say anything, that everything was known of what had happened.
BY MR. WOLFE:
Q. Witness, you said just now that Fanslau had been in charge of the supply battalion?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. How did you know that?
A. Well, that was quite generally known in the company, as something quite obvious. From the moment the supply battalion was formed, which at that time consisted of three independent companies--the supply column the butchers company and the bakers company, although I think the butchers company was only a platton at the time--these units were first of all under the commanding officer of the company, and then immediately under the administrative officer of the division, who at that time was Fanslau. Later on, it was formed into what was known as the supply battalion, and then we heard that the officer in charge of the battalion and the administrative officer of the division would also be Fanslau.
Q. What was Tschentscher's position?
A. Tschentscher was in charge of the first company of the supply column.
Q. Did he have another position as well?
A. Not that I know of. He was the man in charge of the supply battalion, such as Obersturmbannfuehrer Braunagl was in charger of the bakers' column and somebody else in charge of the butchers' company.
Q. Was Tschentscher at any time deputy commander of the battalion?
A. I don't recall an order of this sort. Nothing was every made known about that. All I know was that Fanslau was frequently absent from the supply battalion. He went to the divisional staff or to another regiment in order to take care of some business, and during that absence, I believe, that Tschentscher looked after the official business of the supply column, but I did not have a chance to find out all about the details here.
All I know was that he looked after order and discipline in that period of time.
Q. You said you had a dispute with Tschentscher. You also said, I believe, that you avoided seeing Tschentscher as much as you could.
A. Yes.
Q. You also said that you were almost always in Tschentscher's vicinity. You were next to his office. You could observe everything he did?
A. Yes.
Q. How can you reconcile those statements?
A. Well, when I had this incident with Tschentscher, I knew that he was after me, that he didn't like me or did not like me any more, and so I avoided as much as I could being in his vicinity, but at the same time my work as the paymaster of the company, and the man who looked after the supplies for the company---It was simply obvious that I had to go there where my office was allocated. I was simply told, "You go in there with your stuff," and that was usually next to Tschentscher's office.
Q. Witness, you told us that you engaged about three Russian prisoners of war in the kitchen, if I have understood you correctly.
A. Yes. We had a few Russians with the company. What their legal status was, I don't know. We were simply told that they were prisoners of war. Perhaps they were deserters even. Perhaps they were even Russians who had simply joined the company and worked for the I-platoon, carried water for the company, and so on.
Q. You said also that one prisoner of war, a man called Assis, liked to pretend that he had just been shot and also liked having his leg pulled.
A. The prisoner of war Assis--at least I think he was a prisoner of war--was an extremely cheerful person.
Ha was a snail bloke, and he liked these things. He would start boxing when he ran into somebody. He tried somehow or other to call people's attention. And when one said, Assis go away, then he would say, shoot me.
Q. Tell me, who did the "shooting", as you called it?
A. Oh, that depended on who happened to be around and who talked to him.
Q. But anyway, they were SS men?
A. Yes, they were comrades of the company.
Q. Tell me, witness, did you any tire tell Sauer that Tschentscher had shot at your car and you had to jump off?
A. No. I don't understand your question even. I discussed this matter with Sauer, yes.
Q. Did you tell Sauer at any time that you could recall that a shot had hit your car and that you had had to jump off?
A. No. I did not tell Sauer that. On the contrary, I said to Sauer that this is not true.
MR. WOLFE: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further examination by Defense Counsel?
Very well, the witness may be excused, and we'll resune at 1:45.
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal will recess until 0145.
(The Tribunal recessed until 0145 hours.)