Q. Did you see Fanslau in Zclozow?
A. I do recall that the Commander at that time had paid us a short visit.
Q. Excuse me, witness, just answer my questions. Did you see Fanslau in Zclozow?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. You were not in the presence of Tschentscher all of the time that he was in Zclozow, were you?
A. Yes.
Q. You were with him every minute while he was in Zclozow?
A. Well, of course today I couldn't tell you whether Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher wasn't once separated from me and whether I always went with him wherever he went.
Q. Did you see Tschentscher in Tarnapol?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you in his presence all the time while he was in Tarnapol?
A. Most of the time of our advance I was in his presence because our tasks bound us to each other.
Q. You never heard of synagogues in Tarnapol being used by the bakery company?
A. No.
Q. You never heard of Jews working in the slaughterhouse at Tarnapol?
A. No.
Q. Did you see Tschentscher in Zhitomir?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Were you in his presence all the time at Zhitomir?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see him at Biala-Zherkiov?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Were you in his presence all the time there?
A. Yes.
Q. And were you with him all the time when he was at Tsugorskij, in his presence all the time?
A. Yes, I was there too.
Q. Well, I asked you were you with him all the time in his presence?
A. Well, that is a question of conscience. You know now after six years it is very hard for me to say whether I didn't leave him for ten minutes or whether I was constantly with him. All I can confirm is that my tasks were of such a nature that I had to remain with the company constantly and therefore I had to remain near Tschentscher also.
Q. You said that you returned on the 19th of September to the Viking Division?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you know that Braunagel left the Viking Division on the 16th of September?
A. Well, I never asserted that Hauptsturmfuehrer Braunagel left the Division on the 16th of September. What I said was something else.
Q. Excuse me, How do you know, as you said, that Braunagel returned to the Division on the 11th of September?
A. Well, because when I came back I was told from my company that Hauptsturmfuehrer Braunagel had come back two days before.
Q. All the time that you were in the East, at no time did you hear of Einsatzkommando, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And at no time at all did you ever hear of any mistreatment of any kind of the Jews?
A. No.
Q. When did you join the Allgemeine SS?
A. On the 1st of July, 1931.
Q. 1931?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you join the Nazi Party?
A. In the summer of 1925.
Q. Excuse me, did you say 1925?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember what your party number is?
A. Yes, 23424, 2-3-4-2-4.
Q. And your Allgemeine SS number?
A. 63000.
Q. Did you hold the blood badge?
A. No.
Q. You are in the automatic arrest category, are you not?
A. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: In the what category?
MR. ROBBINS: Automatic arrest.
Q. (By Mr. Robbins) And when you joined the Nazi Party in 1925 where did you join it, what part of Germany?
A. In Schleswig-Holstein.
Q. Are you now in an internment camp, Witness?
A. Yes.
Q. And what internment camp?
A. In the 5th C.J.C.
Q. Where is that located?
A. At Staumuehle near Paderborn.
Q. Have you ever been in the camp at Langwasser?
A. No.
Q. Witness, did you ever hear while you were in an internment camp of the SS an internee being severely beaten by his comrades for giving testimony against defendants in SS cases?
A. No, I never heard of such a thing.
Q. This is the first time you ever heard of it, is that right ?
A. Well, I can't quite follow what you are referring to I am afraid.
Q. I am asking you if you ever heard of an internee, after he had given testimony against SS officials, after he had returned to the internment camp, being beaten or killed by his comrades in the internment camp?
A. No, I don't know anything about it; I didn't heard anything about it either.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Your Honor, I have.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q. Witness, you just said that you had seen the Defendant Fanslau at Zclozow. Would you give us the exact location where you saw him there?
A. Yes. We were slowly passing through Zclozow. It was very bad weather and the roads were muddy, and therefore we had to stop many times. At those occasions the Hauptsturmfuehrer Fanslau came from the Division, he gave us a short, new report, and then he left again.
Q. Was that in the town itself, or had you already passed the town?
A. As far as I remember we had passed the town already and we had gone in the direction east.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Thank you, your Honor, no further questions to this witness.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Was your rank the rank of a captain when you succeeded Tschentscher?
A. Yes.
Q. How long had you had that rank before Tschentscher left the battalion?
A. I held that rank as from the 3rd of January, 1941 .
Q. And this is when you joined the Viking Division?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you hear the lectures that Tschentscher gave to members of the battalion?
A. No.
Q. Never heard him give any lectures on any subjects to the members of the first company or any other company in the battalion?
A. I have already testified I was transferred to Tschentscher to the supplies office on the 22nd of June, 1941, and during the war no such lectures were made at all. Before that I was with the divisional staff.
Q. When you entered the town of Zclozow, did you see dead Jews on the street?
A. Well, I have seen dead people on our advance but whether they were Jews I couldn't tell you today.
Q. They were civilians, were they?
A. I couldn't tell you that either today at least.
Q. How were they dressed?
A. Well, when we were advancing I saw so many dead that I hardly could tell you whether those were civilians, soldiers, or whether they were dressed or undressed.
Q. Did you see the Jews taken from their homes, herded into groups, and taken to the citadel in Zclozow?
A. No.
Q. Do you know Sauer?
A. No, I don't know Sauer personally.
Q. Do you know Otto ?
A. Otto I do remember, yes.
Q. Did you know a member of the First Company by the name of Stamminger, S-t-a-m-m-i-g-e-r?
A. Yes.
Q. Was he with you on this advance through Eastern Poland and Western Ukraine?
A. Stamminger was with the administration of the First Company and therefore he was our subordinate.
Q. Well, the answer is "yes"?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether he is living or dead?
A. I never heard anything about his being dead.
Q. Do you know where he is now?
A. No.
Q. Do you know anything about Stamminger having to leave his truck while Tschentscher was shooting at a Jew, because the bullet had hit the truck?
A. No.
Q. Never heard of that?
A. No.
Q. Do you know Suerth, S-u-e-r-t-h?
A. Well, I do remember the name.
Q. Well, as Captain of the First Company, don't you know him? He was one of the soldiers under you.
A. Yes, but he was not in my company.
Q. Which company was he in?
A. He was in the Second Company.
Q. What was his rank?
A. I think he was an Obershharfuehrer.
Q. So you do know him and even his rank?
A. Well, I told you I know the name and I do know the rank, yes.
Q. And you know the man?
A. Well, I don't know whether I would recognize him now today, because after all, I left the Viking Division in 1942.
Q. And you say you didn't hear anything about this man shooting six Jews while you were at Zhitomir?
A. No.
Q. Do you know a man by the name of Kirsch, an SS man by the name of Kirsch, K-i-r-s-c-h?
A. No.
Q. You didn't know that he was a member of the First Company?
A. Well, today I couldn't tell you that any more.
Q. Do you know anything about Tschentscher ordering him to shoot a Jew and when he refused to shoot the Jew that Tschentscher then told him if he didn't obey the order that he would shoot him?
A. I don't know anything of that.
Q. You never heard of any of that?
A. No.
Q. Well, if the records would show here that while you were an officer to the Viking Division in the area in which you were located and in which your command was located, in a space of time of several weeks, there were more than 6,000 civilian Jews killed in that area, would you be surprised?
A. Well, I couldn't imagine how that could be shown. I never heard or saw anything about it. I couldn't imagine how the record could show that.
Q. And, if the records do show that, you have absolutely no knowledge of it either from seeing it, hearing it, or from any other course?
A. No.
Q. Now, isn't the reason that you are here testifying as you are the deputy of Tschentscher that if you did admit these facts that you know you would be inducted yourself?
A. No, that's not the reason.
Q. Even though you would be indicted, if you admitted knowledge and participation in any of those things, you would tell the truth about it now while on the stand?
A. I can't testify anything else or admit anything else than what I have to testify here under oath.
Q. And you would testify as you are testifying even though-
A. Yes.
Q. Just a minute -- even though you would incriminate yourself if you did admit knowledge of these killings of the Jews. You would still testify as you are how?
A. I can't testify in any different manner from what I have testified.
Q. Even if it would incriminate you?
A. I don't understand the question.
(The interpreter repeated the question.)
Q. That's all.
A. I have no other knowledge. I can't testify more than what I have testified.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That is all.
EXAMINATION BY DR. VON STAKELBERG: (Attorney for the Defendant Fanslau)
Q. Witness, when you were examined by the prosecution, didn't you receive a promise that you wouldn't be charged if you admitted incriminating actions?
A. I was only told that I would be heard only as a witness and that I would be returned to my camp then.
Q. Oh, I see. But you didn't receive any direct promise?
A. No, I didn't.
THE PRESIDENT: That was a good try.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: One of these witnesses has been assured. I'll try anything once.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, he didn't say that. The witness may be excused.
(The witness was excused.)
DR. BERGOLD (Attorney for the Defendant Klein): Your Honors, it was reported to me this morning one could not find out what year this publication was issued. May I point out to the Tribunal that towards the middle of the paper one can see that the newspaper must have been printed a short while after the war started against Russia, because it reads here, and I am quoting literally, "Much, very much, we knew already of the occurence in the Soviet Union and in spite of that amounted to little if one compares it with what could be seen behind this blood red curtain, compared with reality, namely, millions of European soldiers have been able to shoot a glance behind that curtain. Fanatically they all fight for their homes and their family, and their houses." Therefore, it can be seen that this newspaper must have been issued when the armies of the axis powers fought in Russia, because otherwise it wouldn't have read, "Millions of European soldiers have been able to shoot a glance behind this curtain."
For me, establishing the time when it was published is important, because Herr Klein, as Mr. Robbins has mentioned, previously was no longer a procurist of the Nordland Publishing House at that time. He already testified to that when he was on the witness stand himself.
DR. HOFFMANN (attorney for the Defendant Scheide): Your Honor, may I take the liberty of enlarging on this newspaper. First of all, I would like to remark that, as far as -- I think-- this -- well, shall we call it a piece of paper, is not a newspaper. It can be seen that it wasn't a periodical, because, in accordance with the press law of the German Reich of that time the periodical would have had to print the number of copies issued on the back of the paper. Therefore, I think it's a private copy, a private issue, which was not sold in public.
And, if the Tribunal should assume that this edition of this slanderer who is responsible for this paper, had been sold in public and if it had been available to a large number of Germans, then I ask to be granted permission to be able to proveit to the contrary.
THE PRESIDENT: What would be the purpose, Dr. Hoffmann, of publishing it, but not distributing it? Why?
DR. HOFFMAN: Well, it would be a publication, Your Honor, If you see why the legal requirements indicated that the number of copies and other legal requirements would be listed on the back of the paper, if it had been sold in public. That was a well known fact, Your honor, and every newspaper man in Germany can confirm that.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it was distributed to somebody, wasn't it? They didn't just print it and leave it in bundles.
DR. HOFFMAN: Well, of course, Your Honor, it is well possible that a few, let's say 100, I don't know how many -- have been distributed, but it was not sold and distributed in public like a newspaper or periodically. That is my assertion and I support this assertion on the strength of the legal form under which the paper was printed.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you think that anyone, the SS, would have gone to the expense and trouble of gathering all those pictures and having cuts made and the paper printed and then only show it to a 100 people?
DR. HOFFMANN: Your Honor, I do think really that whoever was the criminal who wrote this dirty stuff had an interest in getting it out of his hands but I hope had not sufficient paper to print enough copies so that you could say it was generally and publically distributed.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, you may be right, but don't you think it had a rather wide distribution without being sold?
DR. HOFFMANN: Well, Your Honor, I couldn't deny that, but I mean that the large public did not have knowledge of these matters, at least according to my own opinion.
THE PRESIDENT: What do you think about the members of the organization that got the paper out, that published it?
DR. HOFFMANN: Your Honor, I couldn't tell you. I can't have an insight of how far these papers were distributed to the members of the organization, but I do think that it would be an important enough a question to be submitted to the expert in charge of the SS Operational Main Office, I mean, as a witness, with regard to this question, If the question is important enough for the Tribunal. I don't know the man. I don't know him, but he might be called here and then we would hear how far this paper was circulated and distributed.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you know who the man would be?
DR. HOFFMANN: No, unfortunately, Your Honor, I don't know, but probably that could be found out. Perhaps the prosecution could even help me and -
THE PRESIDENT: We are agreed, Dr. Hoffmann, that it isn't important to bring in the publisher or the head of the office to show what distribution tho paper had. It won't be necessary.
DR. PRIBILLA: (Attorney for the Defendant Tschentscher) Your Honor, before we start the recess, may I put in one word concerning the question put by Judge Phillips concerning the witness Stamminger. This witness, Stamminger, Your Honor, the one you have asked about, is the same witness Stamminger whom I am going to call as a witness before this Tribunal on Tuesday, if nothing enexpected happens.
THE PRESIDENT: Now what are we prepared to do after the recess?
DR. PRIBILLA: Your Honor, the Witness Mueller is is still waiting.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, we'll hear him immediately after the recess, which we will take now.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for about 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, during the recess we have discovered a letter which I think will throw a good deal of light on the circulation that the magazine "Sub Human" achieved. This is a letter that was written by Gottlieb Berger, who mas the Chief of the Main Office, SS Hauptamt to Himmler. It is a rather long letter and deals with three different matters. Only the first one deals with the distribution of this magazine. I have given a copy to the translators; and if it please the Tribunal, I should like to have then read it into the record in English and in German.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a portion of it?
MR. ROBBINS: Just a portion of it, yes.
THE INTERPRETER: "To the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler, the Fuehrer's Headquarters. Reichsfuehrer:
"1. Reich Treasurer Schwarz. On Saturday I had announced myself to see the Reich Treasurer Schwarz in order to personally sub it to him the magazine 'The Sub Human Being' and in order to be able to request his assistance. The Reich Treasurer was in very good humor and he told me that he had a discussion with the Reichsfuehrer SS, who gave him an order for on entire quarter of a year. He was extremely pleased about the magazine. He said that each German family should receive a copy and that he on his part would help us in its distribution. The Germanic work is of importance to the Reich Treasurer."
DR. HOFFMANN: Your Honor, thank God it did not reach every German.
ERICH MUELLER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE TRIBUNAL ( JUDGE MUSMANNO): Will you please stand, raise your right hand, and repeat the oath after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO): You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. PRIBILLA:
A. Witness, please give the Tribunal your full name.
A. My name is Erich Mueller.
Q. When and where were you born?
A. On the 25th of January 1912.
Q. Where?
A. At Hagon.
Q. What is your civilian profession?
A. I am a watchmaker and optician.
Q. Since when were you a member of the Waffen SS? Were you an active member or were you in the reserve?
A. Since the 1st of September 1939, I was a member of the reserve.
Q. When were you a member of the SS Division Viking?
A. Since the 1st of December 1940 until the end of the war.
Q. What was your position there?
A. I was a master sergeant in the butchers' company.
Q. What was the organization of the supply units? Do you know the positions of Fanslau and Tschentscher?
A. The supply units were combined into one battalion which consisted of three companies. The first company was the supply office, The second company was the bakers' company; and the third company was the butchers' company.
Q. What were the positions of the defendants Fanslau and Tschentscher?
A. Fanslau was the commanding officer of the battalion, and Tschentscher had the same position as the other company commanders. However, he was Fanslau's right hand.
Q. Witness, in the time when Tschentscher was in charge of the food office, excesses are alleged to have been committed in the supply battalion against the Jewish population. Do you know anything about it?
A. No, I know nothing about it, and I never heard anything of that kind.
Q. Especially the butchers' company is alleged to have employed Jews for heavy work.
A. No, we did not employ any Jews.
Q. Why can you tell us that so precisely?
A. We never employed any Jews, and there was no necessity for us to employ them because at the slaughter places wherever we worked there was always a big crowd of people and very often many of them offered themselves as workers for us so they would get the remainders of the meat, whatever was not needed. Furthermore, we and our people were enough to take care of the work.
Q. The people who offer themselves for work--did you employ them?
A. No, they were not employed either because it was prohibited to use enemy personnel in supply enterprises.
Q. Why was that prohibited?
A. That was considerably too much danger because these people might try to poison the food with something, or might transfer disease and things of that kind.
Q. Witness, can you recall the city of Tarnopol?
A. Yes, I can recall the city. The company was outside of Tarnopol. There we developed our work, because the slaughterhouse, so far as I recall, had already been taken over by other units.
Q. A witness has alleged here that the Butcher Company had worked in the slaughterhouse of Tarnopol. Can you tell us precisely whether this is correct or not?
A. It is possible that several men worked there.
Q. If people were there, were they working there by order of the company, or how were these people furnished in the slaughterhouse?
A. If they worked there, then they worked there by order of the company, or they were assigned to the slaughterhouse by somebody's orders.
Q. However, your Butcher Company was also operating fully?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was that located?
A. It was located at Tarnopol.
Q. And you don't recall precisely where it was stationed?
A. How could I describe it. I cannot tell you exactly, but I think it was at least one kilometer outside the Tarnopol city.
Q. What place was it? Perhaps you can tell us what was going on there. I mean, how did that place look when the Butcher Company was operating there? Did you have tents there?
A. No, we did not have any tents. The company was billeted for the most part in houses, or we would use the vehicles. If, however, these facilities were not sufficient, then we would hitch up one or two tents. However, this only happened on very rare occasions.
Q. However, you knew that for a certainty that this slaughtering was being operated there?
A. Yes.
Q. Did anything come to your attention to the effect that these supply companies outside of their work with regard to supplying the units were also occupied in the assembling of Jews and transporting them to ghettos?
A. No, never. We never were used for any tasks of that sort. I never heard anything about the fact that Jews were driven together at the ghettos at that time.
Q. Witness, can you recall the city of Zhitomir?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were you located in Zhitomir?
A. At Zhitomir we were located in a barrack-like building.
Q. Who was stationed there, all the companies?
A. Only individual companies. The Baker Company and the Butcher Company. The food column, so far as I can recall, was situated outside of Zhitomir.
Q. You, together with the Butcher Company, were located in this barracks?
A. With the Baker Company.
Q. According to testimony here it is alleged that at Zhitomir excesses were committed and shooting of Jews is alleged to have occurred there. Above all, a member of the Baker Company is alleged to have shot six Jews while there in the barracks. Do you know anything about it?
A. No, we did not employ any Jews there, and I did not here anything about shooting or excesses against Jews.
Q. However, a witness by the name of Sauer has testified here by naming a man who is alleged to have committed this deed, and he stated that this was Oberscharfuehrer Suerth, and this witness also testified that every member of the Supply Battalion must have had knowledge of the shootings. What do you have to say about that?
A. I agree with the witness Sauer insofar as when he said that every member of the battalion would have had to obtain knowledge about the shootings.
However, I don't know about any shooting. I never heard anything about them, and therefore I assume that no shootings ever occurred.
Q. Can you recall Biala-Zherkiov?
A. Yes, I can recall that locality.
Q. Do you know where the food column was situated at that time?
A. The Butcher Company was located in a vinegar factory, and so far as I know the supply column was also located in the same factory site.
Q. The defendant Tschentscher, it has been alleged, shot at a Jew there who ran through the area, and it is alleged that, his shirt outside his pants, he came out of his quarters there, than he ran after the Jew, and he shot him there. You were there at the time. Did you observe any such incident, or such a similar incident?
A. No, I don't know anything about that. However, it would have been bound to have come to my attention if it had happened. Furthermore, since Tschentscher was always immaculately dressed according to uniform regulations, I cannot imagine that Tschentscher could have come outside of a building in that state.
Q. Witness, can you recall Fjedorki?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were you stationed in that city?
A. At Fjedorki we were located at a certain estate, a Kolchose.
Q. Did your office stay together with the Supply Company together with other units?
A. We were not directly together there, but we were only several hundred meters apart.
Q Did you hear anything about the fact that Tschentscher ordered an SS man by the name of Kirsch to shoot a Jew there?
A. No, I never heard anything about that.
Q. Would you state that such incident would have become general knowledge if it had occurred?
A. Yes, in any event.
Q. You are, therefore, of the opinion that such incidents were so extraordinary that if it had happened everyone of the men would have know about it if it had occurred?
A. Yes, in any event because things of that sort always became general knowledge.
Q. Were there any reports about Tschentscher to this effect? Did he have the reputation that he himself committed excesses, or that at least he permitted it that excesses could happen?
A. No, to the contrary, Tschentscher had the reputation that he was extremely correct, and that he would severely punish for the slightest excesses.
Q. What do you mean now when you refer to excesses? Are you referring to excesses towards the population in the occupied territories?
A. Perhaps I used a wrong expression here. What I mean is I am talking about violations of regulations.
Q. And how was it with excesses towards the population? Was he very strict or was he not very strict? Do you know anything about that?
A. Such excesses did not occur at all.
Q. However, you will have to admit to me, witness, that during wartime something in that direction can happen very easily. Do you know about Tschentscher's official attitude towards these matters?
A. If such excesses had occurred, then he would have punished them severely.
Q. How do you reach that conclusion? Is that from your own knowledge of the facts, or how did he get to have that reputation? Can you explain that fact a little more closely?
A. I have known Tschentscher since the battalion was established. I know him very well, and he had the reputation of always being correct, and he was even reproached with being too much of a pedant. In any case his orders were strictly fair and correct.
Q. And you have never noticed anything that did not fit that picture? You never observed any excesses or violations of regulations, or excesses during the wartime against the civilian population?
A. No, I have not seen anything of that sort, nor have I ever heard anything about it.
Q. You have just stated, witness, that all during the establishment of the battalion you were with the unit. I believe at the time you were the Master Sergeant there?
A. I was Acting First Sergeant.
Q. Do you know anything about the lectures which Tschentscher gave there? Can you recall anything particular whether he gave any lectures on the Jewish question? Do you know whether he did make very sharp expressions in that respect?
A. No, I do not know anything about such lectures. As the First Sergeant I was, of course, informed precisely about all lectures which were given. I can only recall two lectures. One of them dealt with the use of the Butcher Company, and the other task in combat zones, and one other lecture dealt with the intelligence question, the counter-intelligence.
Q. And you in your capacity as First Sergeant there, and during your participation in the entire campaign, can you tell something to the Tribunal the nature of which element only went around about Tschentscher in the form of a rumor, especially with regard to excesses towards the civilian population?
A. No, I did not ever hear any rumor about things of that sort.
DR. PRIBILLA: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. STAKELBERG (For the defendant Fanslau):
Q. Witness, I did not quite understand whether you previously answered the question who was in charge of the slaughterhouse at Tarnopol.
A. I cannot tell you that exactly, but since other units were already located at that slaughterhouse at Tarnopol, it is probable that the orders were given by the commanding officers of those units.
Q. There were other butcher platoons there?