A. No.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Can you identify any of the figures in the pictures?
BY MR. PONGER:
Q. Can you identify any person who is shown in the pictures?
A. I personally cannot identify them, but in one of the pictures -but I can show you this one picture and I can tell you the person who is in the picture; I can tell you whether this is the Rabbi of LitzmannstadtLodz.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: What number is that?
THE WITNESS: The whole world knew him.
BY MR. PONGER:
Q. What is the number of that picture?
A. That is No. 5, and tomorrow I can bring in the people who knew him personally.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: All right then. To sum up the whole proposition, we come back to what I said at first, namely, that you identify the pictures because you have seen similar scenes.
BY MR. PONGER:
Q. In the summing up, His Honor means that you only know the pictures in view of the fact that you saw similar ones.
A. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, excuse the witness.
(Witness excused)
Mr. Robbins, any arrangements been made to have copies of these pictures made? I think they ought to be photostated, or whatever method is used to have copies of them made. Has the witness gone?
MR. ROBBINS: No, he is out in the hall.
THE PRESIDENT: Bring him back again with the pictures. I first want the pictures with the witness. Now call the defendant Tschentscher to the stand as a witness, called by the Tribunal. Copy of the folders I want the witness to bring also.
(ERWIN TSCHENTSCHER, a defendant, recalled as a witness to the stand, testified as follows:)
THE PRESIDENT: Show the photographs to the witness.
Q. Witness, will you look at the photographs which have been numbered from one to seven inclusive, which were produced by the witness Goldstein, and state whether you can identify any of the uniforms which appear on the soldiers in the photographs?
A May I first put these pictures in order according to numbers? On Picture 1 I cannot identify any German uniforms. On Picture 2 there seem to be uniforms of the Wehrmacht. On Picture 3 is a uniform which is unknown to me. It would be the uniform of the Ukrainian Militia. I don't know the headdress at all. Picture 4 shows us a uniform of the police.
Q You mean the SD?
A No. That is the regular police.
Q You mean the local Ukrainian police?
A No the German regular police. Picture 5: here in the background on the right, I recognize an SS man who is wearing the uniform of Untersturmfuehrer, I believe he is an officer. This uniform appears to be black on the picture. The other uniforms seem to be police uniforms. Picturo 6: Then is a police uniform of the German regular police without any doubt. Picture 7, I cannot identify quite clearly. It may be police uniform or Wehrmacht uniform here.
Q Do you see any Death Head uniforms?
A With the exception of one Obersturmfuehrer who wears a black uniform I do not see any additional ones. This is Picture 5.
Q What did the Deathhead Division wear?
A The Deathhead Division wore field gray uniforms, just like the remaining SS, and at the collar in the place of the well-known SS insignia, a "Deathhead" was embroidered there.
Q Did It have any characteristic cap insignia?
AAt the steel helmets and Garrison caps?
Q At the Garrison caps.
A The Steel helmet of the SS during combat operations were provided with camouflage matters. This was made out of a different kind of material. The steel helmet were not provided with any insignia.
Q I am speaking about the cap insignia of the Deathhead Troops, did they have a special insignia on their caps?
A They were small field caps, similar to those worn by the American soldiers. In the center of the front was a button with a deathhead on it.
THE PRESIDENT: Let me see the pictures, please?
Q I will show you photographs 3, 4, and 6; on photograph 3 there are six soldiers in the background; tell me, if you can, to what units they belonged, especially the one on the right with the cap who is smiling.
A Your Honor, the second man on the right who is smiling is the only SS man whom I have described here, whom I noticed on all the pictures. It is an Untersturmfuehrer, that is the rank of lieutenant. However, he is wearing a peacetime uniform. It is not possible that he could have been a member of combat division. As far as I am able to recognize he is also wearing a leather shoulder strap which goes over his right shoulder; such shoulder straps were not worn at all by an officer of a combat unit in the field.
Q Can you identify the uniforms of the figures on the left of the picture?
A Yes. Without any doubt I can see it from the dark cuffs at the sleeves. They were typical for the German police, who wore light green uniforms and dark brown cuffs at the sleeves.
Q On Picture 7, the soldiers with the steel helmets on the right are Wehrmacht troops, are they not?
A Yes, as far as I am able to recognize it they are members of the Wehrmacht, because their collars are boardered in the typical Wehrmacht way, what we formerly used to call the "Cardelitzen". There is a special designation, but it is the typical insignia of the Wehrmacht.
Q The fact they have steel helmet on indicate that they were in combat or at least were engaged in a campaign?
A Yes, however, there may have also been units who were in the rear, and they carried out operations there. Perhaps they were combing the area for so-called Partisan bands. This could not have been for men in the front line.
Q They were active troops?
A Yes, they were combat troops in any case.
Q Picture No, 6 shows the uniform of the officer standing on the bank very clear, what is that uniform?
A Beg Pardon, Your Honor, this is not an officer.
Q Is it a soldier?
A He is also a member of the police, because he also wears the typical dark brown cuffs on his sleeves.
Q Picture No. 4 shows a number of soldiers in the background smiling at the row of dead people on the ground, and on the left is a soldier with a steel helmet on; can you tell us what outfit they belong to?
A The soldiers in the background all belong to the police, which is again clearly shown by the dark cuffs at the sleeves. The soldier whose face looks into the picture I cannot identify quite clearly, however, he may also be a member of the police.
Q Well, all of these German soldiers moved into Tarnopol with the capture of Tarnopol by the first line, did they not?
A The police units could not have entered the city together with the first troops, because these were the police units who later on moved up in order to provide the security in the country and to see that there was peace and order.
Q They were the occupation troops who followed the combat troops?
A They were part of them, and after all we had occupation troops of the Wehrmacht and in addition to that we also had these police units, who were to take charge of law and order.
Q You also had the Einsatgkommandos?
AAccording to the descriptions which I have seen in the files and reports, Ohlendorf and others, such Einsatgkommandos were composed of this regular police and also of native police, Ukrainian police units, which also included other nationalities. Some companies, I believe on the whole only two or three companies of the Waffen SS were also used for these tasks. They were furnished for these tasks, but I only know that by studying these files.
Q And the members of the Todt organization followed in the occupation troops?
A The organization Todt assisted in order to clear up the roads and build bridges. But they only came later on.
Q But it came in after the capture and with the occupation forces?
A Yes, with the occupation forces.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. HAENSEL; (for Loerner)
Q I only have one question, witness, with regard to the deathhead insignia, the Tribunal does not have the right idea yet about that insignia: If a soldier wore the deathhead insignia, did that mean that he belonged automatically to the deathhead division?
A No, he did not even have to be a member of the SS. The Deathhead has been a traditional Insignia of the German armies for centuries, and during the 1st World War it was particularly worn by the famous "Deathhead Hussars" (Totenkopf-Husaru) and besides the SS, it was also worn by the armored units. It was worn on their soft caps, which looked like bask caps, as far as I know. At any rate there were also units in the Wehrmacht which wore the Deathhead insignia.
Q Do you know how many armored division there were in the Army?
A There was quite a number of them, I believe a few dozen. However, not all wore the insignia. Only the so-called "tank men".
the drivers of the armored vehicles only.
Q However what I wanted to say is that -- the deadhead could not be identified with an insignia only belonging to the SS, is that correct?
A Yes, that's correct.
BY DR. PONGER:
Q Witness, is it correct that armoured units wore an entirely different uniform than other units? Had they different caps pants and vests?
A It was so during the campaign in the West. They also wore field gray uniforms. Their uniforms originally were thus that they wore baggy pants like the fountain division just like the American Army; long and tied together round the ankles. They wore a short jacket which only went down to the hip. It was not a long jacket like I myself am wearing.
Q Just a moment. I just wanted to know if they were wearing a different uniform than the SS for example?
A The SS wore a different kind.
Q I am talking about the armoured division of the SS troops, what difference was there?
A The difference did not exist later on any more. At the beginning you could see from the entire cut of the uniform, even without looking at the insignia. You could recognize an SS man from a distance because of his typical uniform.
Q You could also recognize a member of the armoured units.
A Yes.
BY DR. von STAKELBERG:
Q Witness, the black SS uniform, was it ever worn at the front?
A I have already stated when I identified this one SS officer, that this uniform was never worn at the front. I have also mentioned that this officer is wearing a shoulder strap and apparently belonged to a unit of the General SS, and - but this pure assumption on my part - he may have been a member of the resettlement commission, or some other unit.
At any rate they must have been far behind the front lines in the rear.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess until 15 minutes of 2:00 (Thereupon a recess was taken until 1:45 p.m.)AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. BERGOLD: I have a request to the Tribunal. This morning a magazine of the Nordland Publishing Company was submitted to the Tribunal. I was not here this morning, and I would be most grateful to the Court if now I might have a look at this publication, because there is only one copy of it.
I am most grateful. Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: I'll be very glad to have all Defense Counsel see it.
(WILLI THEODOR KLAUS SCHAEFER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Raise your right hand please and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and the Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. PRIBILLA:
Q Witness, will you please give the Tribunal your full name?
A My name is Willi Theodor Klaus Schaefer.
Q Where and when were you born?
A On 4 April 1907 at Nordhoff/Rendsburg.
Q What is your civilian profession?
A My profession is civil inspector of the municipality.
Q How long have you been a member of the Waffen-SS? Were you an active member, or were you only a member of the reserve?
A I was a member of the Waffen-SS since the beginning of the war. That is, since 1 September 1939. I was only a member of the reserve.
Q When were you a member of the SS division Viking?
A I was a member of the SS division Viking for 3 January 1941, and I remained a member until 1 April 1942.
Q What was your official rank in the Viking Division?
A From 3 January 1941 I was a leader in the divisional headquarters, in the divisional staff, and from 22 June 1941 I was leader of the Supplies Office, and from 21 November 1941 I was chief of the First Company; that is, the Economic Battalion. That also was a part of the Supplies Office.
Q In other words, during the whole period of time you were a member of the division of which Tschentscher also was a member.
Therefore, you will be in a position to explain to the Tribunal what happened during Tschentscher's absence in this division and what special occurrences happened at the Economic Battalion and at the SS Division Viking?
A I was a member of the Viking Division during the same period as Tschentscher, with the exception of an official trip I made to Germany. This trip took place about 25 August until 18 or 19 of September 1941.
Q With the exception of this short period of time, you were with the Viking Division during the whole period?
A Yes, I was.
Q Witness, could you give us a detailed explanation as to when Tschentscher left the Economic Battalion?
A That was 21 November 1941.
Q How do you know this date so exactly?
A That very day I became the successor to Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher, and I took over the First Company.
Q Where did Tschentscher go when he left your division?
A On the strength of his transfer order, Tschentscher returned to Germany, and he had. to report at Berlin.
Cout II, case 4
Q During the war, were you in the direct neighborhood of Tschentscher?
A I was his permanent deputy, and I marched with him. I lived with him. In short, I was his right hand man.
Q Did you hear about what happened with the other companies of the Economic Battalion?
A In the broad outlines, yes. There was a certain contact, even a very close contact between the individual companies, and, of course, I had to receive some information as to what happened.
Q Witness, during the period, when Tschentscher was in charge of the Supplies Battalion -- I mean the Supplies Office; I beg your pardon -- it is alleged that considerable excesses had taken place concerning the Jewish population at the Economic Battalion. That is, maltreatment and even executions. Do you have any knowledge about that?
A. I never get any knowledge of such excesses.
Q. Were there Jews in employment with the bakery and butchers companies?
A. The employment of auxilliary workers in our supply organization during my time was unauthorized, basically at least. I have knowledge only that once the people were examined by doctors very thoroughly, only a very few skilled workers and artisans worked with us.
4. These laborers in employment with you, were they mistreated or were they killed once they had done their jobs?
A. No.
Q. Witness, do your recall while you were at Zhitomir where you stationed in that locality?
A. The Supplies Office at Zhitomir was places in farm-house.
Q. And the bakery and butcher companies, were they also stationed in that farm-house?
A. As far as I know, no. As far as I recall, they were stationed in a sort of barracks, in a barracks-like building, at least.
Q. This block of buildings, was it located in the town of Zhitomir itself?
A. It was quite a bit away from the town. We were out of the town. The companies were in the town itself.
Q. And where was Tschentscher stateiced at Zhitomir during that period?
A. Tschentscher was with the Supplies Office. He was stationed there, and at that time he had the so-called "Russian disease", which was a sort of dysentery. He was in bed, and he was helpless and apathetic, on a camp bed in our command car.
Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether at Zhitomir with the bakery company Jews were employed and had to carry the water and bake the broad? Is that correct?
Do you know anything about it; or to transport and carry the bread?
A. No, I don't know anything about it. Such promitive work in our installation would have been without any point. We needed every day a few thousand liters of water. The bakery had two boiler wagons, and they could take up to 6,000 leters--up to about 700 gallons--of water in one stretch, and we had the most modern pumps, with hoses and everything, and we could get water everywhere we wanted and get directly to the point where it was to be consumed. As far as the transport of bread was concerned it was unauthorized to have it carried by foreign workers.
Q. Why was it unauthorized?
A. Because of epidemics and diseases.
Q. The witness Sauer has testified with regard to Zhitomir as follows: That an Oberscharfeuhrer by the name of Suert had, near the barracks in a barn, shot six Jews. The witness furthermore stated that these rumors had circulated in entire battalion and every single man in the battalion had to know about the affair. Did you ever hear anything about this occurrence, or see anything of it?
A. No, I did not.
A. If that had actually happened, would it have been absolutely necessary for you to hear about it, as the witness said?
A. Well, if you can humanly judge it, yes, I would have had to hear about it. May I just briefly make a statement with regard to that? At the very reception of the supplies most of the rumors were received and passed on. Here all the men in charge of supplies for the division met. They exchange news, and it may will he said that that was a very dangerous news exchange.
Q. But you never heard anything about such an occurrence or anything similar?
A. No.
Q. Witness, did you also go to Biala-Zherkiev? Do you remember that location?
A. I was in Biala-Zherkiev, and I do recall the locality. The Supplies Office at the time was billeteding vinegar and jam factory, together with the bakery company, or the butcher company.
Q. If I have understood you correctly, that was not a bivouac but a real bittet for you?
A. Yes, we had permanent billets there.
Q. Were you there together with Tschentscher?
A. In Biala-Zherkiev I had an office building together with Tschentscher. We had our billets there, and we worked there.
Q. Now, it is alleged that there in Biala-Zherkiev a Jew had run through what you call the bivouac, or the billet, and it is said that the defendant Tschentscher had only a pair of pants and a shirt hanging over the pants, and he is said to have run after the Jew and shot at him. Did such an occurrence ever take pleace there?
A. I never heard--I never witnessed such an occurrence. I think it is just a fairy tale, and even a very primitive one. Our billet in Biala-Zherkive was a closed estate. It was fenced, and there was a guard at the door. Near the gates, cars of our battalion had been parked, and the marking lots and the collecting lots of the supplies agencies were there, and I can hardly imagine that a fugitive would penetrate into such an estate, which is fenced all around as a billet for the armed forces and can be recognized as such, and, apart form that, is guarded by soldiers.
Q. Were you also with the company when it was in Tsugorkis?
A. I was still with the company there. I started my official trip only when they went to the next location, namely to Losovatks.
Q. The same witness told us about something he had heard about, namely, that the defendant Tschentscher in the office of Tsugorski is supposed to have threatened an SS member by the name of Kisch with a pistol and make him shoot a Jew, gave him the order to do that.
What do you say to that witness?
A. Well, there again, I can only state very shortly that quite clearly is a fairy tale. In Tsugorki together with Strrmbannfuehrer Tschentscher, I had a joint office, and in this office there were other co-workers of ours and of our unit, and they worked there too.
Q. Were you still with the company when it was in Tarnopol?
A. Yes, in Tarnapol I still was with the same unit.
Q. Now, the Economic Battalion, was it stationed in the town itself?
A. In Tarnapol we were close to the village, and when we went on, we touched the village.
Q. Do you know the slaughterhouse of Tarnapol?
A. No, I don't know it.
Q. Do you know whether this slaughterhouse was used by the butchers' company of your Economic Battalion?
A. I have no recollection of that.
Q. Witness, it is a fact that in these locations and in other localities of the front area numerous killings and maltreatments of Jews actually took place. Do you know anything of a participation of the Economic Battalion in such occurrences?
A. To that I can only say that through our tasks we had so much work that certainly we had no time left for such things.
Q. Well, could you enlarge on that and give us some reasons why your tasks were so hard and took up so much of your time?
A. Every day we had always from twenty to twenty-four thousand men to supply with food, and apart from that we had to look after the clothes of our division. We had to bake, to slaughter, to make sausage, and to produce whatever the soldier had a right to get, and then we had our issues. Every two or three days we had to issue things, and therefore, for such accessory work, we certainly had no time left.
Q. Witness, during the whole period you saw the Defendant Tschentscher next to you, could you tell the Tribunal perhaps something concerning the attitude of Tschentscher in his official capacity? Well, look, after all every Army unit has some offenses committed by some people, minor offenses or more severe offenses, and it might be offenses, in the exercise of their duty and it might also be violences committed against the population of the area one goes through. In these instances was Tschentscher very tolerant and lenient and official, or what was his general attitude?
A. I can only state quite clearly that Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher represented for us whatever could be called the most correct person. He was the very correctness. He was severe in his attitude, but he was just and fair. He had his own characteristics. One might even go as far as saying he was pedantic, like a schoolmasters. He was so conscientious that he judged very severely and harshly little bagatelles and minor instances that happened in our own offices. He never tolerated any excesses against the population. He didn't like fraternization in the localities where we were billeted. Again and again he emphasized that every connection with the populations had to be broken off, that nothing should he accepted from the population. The few free minutes he had, we were always very surprised to see that he used to learn Russian.
Q. Therefore, also with regard to the civilian population, according to what you said, Tschentscher would not tolerate any excesses. Do you recall any instances, I mean, you don't have to give us any details there, but do you remember any occurrences where he took disciplinary action when something happened ?
A. Yes, I do remember such instances. He didn't even tolerate that the territorial soldier, if I might state it that way, that the soldier would even get an egg or something like it from the civilian population. He viewpoint was the troop feeds well, they get sufficient supplies, and it is out of the question that they get things from the population.
Q. Well, wasn't, this attitude of his rather exceptional ? That is, didn't he make exceptions in his attitude, namely , that if there were excesses committed against a Jew that he would overlook it and he would be lenient in such cases?
A. I can only answer that with a very clear and brief "no".
DR. PRIBILLA: Your Honor, I have no further questions to this witness.
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG(For the Defendant Fanslau):
Q. Witness, I have only very few questions here. Now, concerning Zhitomir, I would like to know whether the Hauptsturmfuehrer Braunagel was with the troop?
A. Hauptsturmfuehrer Braunagel can't even have been with our troop at Zhitomir. Hauptsturmfuhrer Braunagel, shortly before we were assigned to Russia, had a motorcycle accident and he broke his ankle. According to my clear recollection he returned one or two days before I came back from my official trip. That would be about the 16th of September, and that was at Losovatka.
Q. Therefore, if somebody asserts that Braunagel had been at Zhitomir, and well, at least that he had been in Zhitomir when this Suehrt occurrence is supposed to have taken place, then can you say with certainty that is inaccurate?
A. I can assert it with certainty, because on the 18th or 19th of September I came back from my official trip, and there I only met Hauptsturmfuehrer Braunagel, who came back two days before I came back, and he only then had rejoined the battalion.
Q. During the advance, or during your time with the Viking Division, did you receive any knowledge of shootings of Jews by Einsatz groups or other detachments?
A. No. The concept, Einsatzgruppen, I only heard of after the war. When I was interrogated by the interrogator I was informed by this interrogator that in the area covered by my division there was supposed to be the Einsatz Group 6.
Q. But did you have knowledge at that time of this Einsatz Group 6?
A. No.
Q. Well, now, there are even certain documents concerning the fact that probably this Einsatz group committed shootings of Jews on a large scale in your rear, for instance, as early as the 7th of July 1941, at Zclozow and during the period from the end of July until the middle of August in Tarnapol.
Did you never hear anything about those shootings?
A. No, of that I never heard anything.
Q. Well, how can you explain the fact?
A. Well, I was with the fighting troop, and we got no knowledge of these matters.
Q. This morning we heard testimony that the bakery and butchery trains -- the bakery and butchery detachments, were active in Tarnapol. Now, this bakery and butchery detachment of the Viking Division, were they working in Tarnapol?
A. At Tarnapol we had the two companies, namely the bakery and butchery companies. As far as I know these things were issued also at Tarnapol.
Q. Go on.
A. Therefore things must have been prepared and produced there if they were issued. Whether that actually took place in Tarnapol itself or near the town, I couldn't tell you.
Q. You don't know the exact location of the companies, whether they were located in the town or whether they were located off the town?
A. No. Our supplies office was located off the town.
Q. Yes, I see. Well, the supplies office was the first company, and the two other companies you don't know anything about, at least not in detail?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Do you know anything, whether the slaughterhouse in Tarnapol was used by your companies?
A. No, I couldn't give you any information with certainty there.
Q. Oh, you don't know anything with certainty , either there. Now, how close and how frequent were the connections of the Defendant Fanslau with the supplies battalion? Was he there often; was he there constantly?
A. Well, Obersturmbannfuehrer Fanslau in his capacity as admin istrative officer and as commander and as supplies inspector of our battalion kept up direct contact between us and the operational department.
He was with us only always for a few days, and then he would come for a day or two and stay with us altogether and he always inspected the stocks.
Q. Now, concerning this Suehrt occurrence, you said a while ago that you never heard anything about it, is that correct? Could you tell us that an official report concerning this alleged occurrence was never made?
A. I never received any information of such an occurrence.
DR. VONSTAKELBERG: Your Honor, no further questions to this witness either.
THE PRESIDENT: Any questions by other Defense Counsel?
(No response)
THE PRESIDENT: If not, the Prosecution may cross-examine.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, did you see Tschentscher in Zclozow?
A. In Zclozow, you mean? Well, yes, I saw Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher there. After all I marched with him in the same column?