I believed that this SS Main Office dealt with matters of the General SS during the war, but I don't know whether that is correct. That is a sort of hunch that I have.
THE PRESIDENT: I am going to ask the interpreters to take this original exhibit and to interpret the reading on one page. The page is not numbered, so I can't identify it by that, but it is the page with the picture of Stalin in the middle, Churchill, Roosevelt, and LaGuardia.
MR. ROBBINS: While it is being passed over, Your Honor, may I ask just one question of the witness?
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, do you remember that this magazine "Sub-Human" was published by the Nordland Publishing Company?
A. Well, according to the remark you see on the back of the page, it has to have been at least printed in that publishing house, but it is not edited there. You must make a distinction there between the printing and the actual publishing.
Q. Do you know that the Nordland Publishing Company is under W-VII of the WVHA?
A. I must admit frankly that at an earlier date I did know the Nordland-Verlag, but I had no idea that it was under the Office W-VII. I didn't know that.
Q. Well, you know that today, don't you?
A. Yes, now, of course.
Q. And you also know that it was under a W-Office, even before the WVHA was organized in March of 1942? You know that today?
A. Today I know that the Nordland-Verlag apparently already belonged to this office at a very early stage.
Q. And you heard the defendant Klein admit here on the witness stand that he was Prokurist in that Nordland-Publishing Company, did you not?
A. I must admit frankly that the remark may have been made, but I just can't think of anything like that just now.
Q. You know that Klein was a manager, a Prokurist, in the Nordland Publishing Company, don't you?
A. No. I heard something about it here when there was talk about it. I knew only that Klein was Chief of W-VIII.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, please read the translation of the printed matter on the page that I referred to.
THE INTERPRETER: It reads as fellows: "Sub-human will remain sub-human, and Jew will remain Jew, whether they are called Churchill, Roosevelt or LaGuardia. For us they are the scum of the earth. They back Stalin, the sub-human No. 1. They are his confederates and comrades."
THE PRESIDENT: Well, this organization that you belonged to spread that gospel, but you didn't know anything about it?
THE WETNESS: Excuse me, Your Honor. I didn't hear the English, and I didn't hear the German text either.
THE PRESIDENT: I'll show you the German text.
DR. PRIBILLA: Your Honor, we did not get the German text either.
THE INTERPRETER: Should we read the German text over the Microphone, Your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, good. The German text will be read now.
(Whereupon the German text was read aloud, in German, by the Interpreter.)
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. And this is the magazine that was published by the SS and rinted by one of the Amts in WVHA, and of this you know nothing, although you were a high officer in the SS and also an Amt Chief in WVHA.
A. Your Honor, it seems to me that this agitation leaflet, this slander leaflet, is only one edition and was not published regularly.
Q. How do you know that?
A. Well, I never saw such a leaflet in this form. If it had been published regularly, I probably would have had another one in my hands.
Q. Well, I call to your attention the fact that this is not a publication of Goebbels. It is not a propaganda pamphlet from the Propaganda Minister, but from the SS.
A. It seems to me that that is correct, Your Honor.
Q. You don't think it possible that you had a magazine like this when you were lecturing the SS men at Dachau?
A. Well, I again have to say emphatically "No," Your Honor.
Q. All right. I call your attention to the fact that this is not "Der Stuermer", which you describe as "filthy". This furnishes its own filth, but you never saw it?
A. I must say that this leaflet is not exactly nice. I would go as far as that.
Q. Well, that isn't going very far. You see, this sort of filth remains to haunt the people who put it but.
I have no other questions.
EXAMINATION BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Witness, I failed to ask you about one other incident from the testimony of Sauer that I had marked in the record on Page 6575. Did you know Oberscharfuehrer Suerth, S-U-E-R-T-H?
A. I do know him, Your Honor.
Q. He was a member of your company, was he not?
A. No, he was a member of the Second Company, the bakers company.
Q. But in your battalion and in the battalion of the defendant Fanslau?
A. Yes, he was a member of the unit, the economic battalion. That is correct.
Q. And he was on the front and engaged in the fight in Eastern Curt 2 Case 4 Poland and Western Russia, was he hot, during the campaign of the summer of 1941?
A. Well, during this period he was around there, yes.
Q. Wasn't he engaged in the activity of the battalion during the summer of 1941 on the Polish front and the Ukrainian front?
A. According to my knowledge, yes he did.
Q. "Yes" is the answer then?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, the witness Sauer testifies that he saw a group of people around a barn near Shitomir during this engagement, and he walked over to the group of people he saw standing there, and that there was an open grave and two Jews were lying in the open grave, who had already been shot. Then he saw Suerth shoot four other Jews with a Tommy-gun, and they were put in the open grave with the other two.
Do you know anything of that incident?
A. I said already No, Your Honor. I never heard anything about it.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: All right. That is all.
THE PRESIDENT: I want to pass Exhibit 639 to the German Counsel, who may not have seen it. The defendants also may see it if they like.
EXAMINATION BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. Witness, wwen did you say you were in Biala-Zierkew?
A. Biala-Zierkew? Well, just now I could not confirm exactly when, but as the witness Fanslau stated yesterday, it ought to have been about toward the 16th or 17th of July 1941.
Q. How long did you stay there?
A. I think that we stayed there a good week. Well, I would say eight to ten days at least.
Q. Did you ever hear while you were there of any of these mistreatments or executions of Jews?
A. No.
Q. And after you left there, you never heard that any such thing happened there later?
A. Well, later I had no more connection at all with this place. I never was there afterwards, I mean.
Q. Well, I am going to hand you Document 3151. Please identify it to the Court as you did the other one and give the date.
A. This again is a report on events by the Chief of the Security Police, dated 17 September 1941.
Q. All right, will you please turn to Page 17 and read the passage that is marked there in pencil? I think you can see the passage I mean.
A. "In Kuroskien---" I can't give the figure quite right. I think it is 160. "---160 persons were shot. In Biala-Zierkew, while the actions went on, another 68. At Karaschza, 109 persons; most of them were Jews, and they were excepted. That is in September."
Q. Would you mind reading the next sentence, please?
A. "The Special Commando -- Sonderkommando IV--" That is what I read. It is not quite clear. It is a bit blurred. "---thereby has liquidated 4,568 Bolshevists, Jews, and anti-social elements."
Q. But you never heard of any of these things at all?
A. Of these matters I din't hear either.
MR. FULKERSON: That is all.
THE PRESIDENT: Does Defense Counsel wish to examine further?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. PRIBILLA:
Q. Witness, in your capacity as a company commander you gave lectures concerning military and tactical questions, and did you have to, at the same time, give ideological lectures, or even - were there any other lectures you had to give, or were there also other Commanders who had to speak of those questions, or was it all concentrated in your hands alone?
A. Well, normally these lecture were a matter for the Compay Commander only, in other words, the education of the soldier.
Q. Now, within the battalion or the division, wasn't there another institution which dealt more particularly with questions of ideology?
A. Yes. In the staff of the division there was an officer, I think he had been detached to the company by the Racial and Settlement Office, and dealt with ideological education of the soldier, but I cannot recall quite clearly whether the Viking Division at that time has such an educator, at least I couldn't assert it with certainty, and I didn't made his acquaintance personally.
Q. But anyhow this institution of an ideological education director existed in the division, didn't it, and it might be assumed that most of the ideological education rested with this person while the company commander had to deal more with tactical and military questions, is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Witness, you testified that on the 22nd or 21 of November you were in Dnjepopetrowsk, and on the next day you flew back home?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you at any time before or after that day stay at Dnjepopetrowsk?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. When you wer at Zhitomir, that is when you arrived at Zhitomir, were you already sick or did you only fall ill at Zhitomir itself?
A. Well, I didn't feel very well when I was traveling to Zhitomir already, and the very monent I reached these new billets on the farm I went to bed, and then I stayed in bed during the whole period, and I was sick there as I already described it. I was treated by our battalion doctor.
Q. Is it correct that you were so sick that you couldn't travel on on your own, that you had to be tr reported in your bed.
A. Yes, that is correct, and the reason was there were only very primitive billets at Zhitomir, and that is the reason why I was transported to Skwira because there were excellent billets there.
Q. Therefore you can say with all certainty that at no time you used the billets of the bakery and slaughter company which was lodged in a barracks?
A. No, never, only from the description I knew there was such a billet in the barracks.
DR. PRIBILLA: Thank you. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Are ther any questions by the Defense Counsel?
(** response.)
THE PRESIDENT: If not this witness may be excused from the witness stant.
(Witness excused.)
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pribilla, the Tribunal does not wish to hear any further evidence in rebuttal of the testimony of the Witness Otto.
DR. PRIBILLA: Your Honor, may I, at a later stage, submit a few aff idavits of witnesses?
I have succeeded to get in touch with this Herr Schaefer who during all this period worked together with Tschentscher and whose car drove behind Tschentscher. Furthermore I have succeeded in contacting the Witness Stamminger, and that is the man of **** the Witness Otto said that Tschentscher tried to shoot a Jew but almost hit Stamminger.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, apparently you didn't understand me. The Tribunal does not wish to hear any further evidence, either from the witness stand or by affidavit in rebuttal of the testimony of the Witness Otto.
DR. PRIBILLA: Your Honor, may I ask whether this refers also to rebuttal against the testimony of the Witness Sauer, or whether it is only directed against the testimony of the Witness Otto?
THE PRESIDENT: Just as I said.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Your Honor, I am very much afraid my colleague, Pribilla hasn't understood that quite correctly. The way I see it is that the Tribunal does not desire any rebuttal against the Witness Otto but does admit the testimony against the testimony of the Witness Sauer.
THE PRESIDENT: Exactly.
DR. PRIBILLA: Your Honor, now the situarion is that, of course, in the preparation of my examination of witnesses I have not made any difference between the rebuttal of the Witness Otto and rebuttal against the Witness Sauer.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, when you get to examining the witness you can make a distinction, when you ask the question. Have you another witness ready, Dr. Pribilla? Is Schaefer here?
DR. PRIBILLA: Well, your Honor, Herr Schaefer is in prison. yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Can we have him now as a witness?
DR. PRIBILLA: Well, your Honor, would it be possible that we hear this afternoon, rather after the recess perhaps, your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: What about the Witness Mueller?
DR. PRIBILLA: The Witness Mueller is at the disposal of the Tribunal also, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: And what other testimony do you propose to offer?
DR. PRIBILLA: Only the Witness Stamminger for this occurrence where Tschentscher is said to have almost hit the Witness Stamminger.
THE PRESIDENT: And where is the Witness Stamminger, where is he?
DR. PRIBILLA: Well, he is near Nurnberg. Of course, we couldn't get him in here today, but we could get him for Tuesday morning.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, by all means have him here Tuesday morning. Have Stamminger here Tuesday morning. Mr. Robbins, do you have something to bring to the Court?
MR. ROBBINS: If the Tribunal please, if the Court has decided on the admissibility of the testimony of Gr. Goldstein, the Jew from Tarnapol, who was present in the courtroom yesterday, we are prepared to put him on the stand at this time.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will take the testimony of the Witness Goldstein.
MR. ROBBINS: I think it will take us about three or four minutes to get him up here.
THE PRESIDENT: Shall we take a recess now so that Dr. Pribilla can get Schaefer and you can get Goldstein, and then we can go ahead full speed, no stops, except for lunch.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for about fifteen minuter.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again is session.
MR. ROBBINS: May it pleas the Tribunal, there may be some little difficulty in interpreting, because the witness speaks German with a Yiddish accent, I am told. I think matters would be facilitated if he is not interrogated in English, but if I let Mr. Ponger examine him.
ANTON GOLDSTEIN, witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: Stand please. Raise your right hand. I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, That I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. PONGER:
Q. Witness, you can take off your ear phones now. Will you please tell your name to the Tribunal?
A. My name is Anton Goldstein.
Q. When and where were you born?
A. On the 4th of November, 1908, at Liegnitz.
THE PRESIDENT: We didn't get the last name.
Mr. PONGER: G-o-l-d-s-t-e-i-n-, Goldstein.
Q. Where are you residing now?
A. I am now residing in Furth, Julienstrasse No. 2
Q. Witness, will you pleas tell the Tribunal just what brough you here in order to appear as a witness?
A. Yesterday I happened to be a spectator here in this court room. I was a spectator here and in the course of the trail Tarnopal was discussed. Since I an a native of Tarnopol, this began to interest me very much and I heard many things which are not actually true. That is why during the recess, during the noon recess, I turned to the prosecu tion in order to give them information about theings which concerned the area of Tarnopol.
Q. Thank you. Witness, where were you at the outbreak of the RussoGerman war?
A. When the Fusso-German War broke out, I was at Tarnopol.
Q. Can you recall the date when Tarnopol was occupoed by the first German units?
A. Tarniopol was taken by the Germans approximately on either the 4th of 5th of July. I can't quite remember.
Q. Will you please recall that time to us and will you tell us what happened on the first days when the German troops accupied Tarnopo;?
A. On the first day when the German troops entered Tarnipop motor cycles entered the city and an SS unit - I don't know how many there were, but in my street I noticed about 30 to 40 men. At the time a terrible shooting stated. All the people went into hiding.
Q. I want to interrupt you, Witness. At Tarnopol were there any combat operations under way at the time?
A. No, there were no combat operations under way. The Russian troops always voluntarily retreated on their own initiative until they reached the Russian border at Prutzsch.
Q. What did you mean when you said shooting was going on?
A. Ukrainians would take Jews off the streets and from the houses and murders immediately took place, also robberies and attacks. The majority of the population on the second day went into the houses and into the cellars, they took all people for work.
Q. Was the measure that people were to work officially announced?
A. I don't know whether it was on the first day, but on the second day already varous orsers were posted all over the town and these orders stated that all Jews had to report immediately for work. They had to clean up.
They had to take away the corpeses and the rubble which was located in the street. Also many task cars and trucks had been left by the Russian troops. They were destroyed. All these things had to be cleared off the streets.
Q. What work did the Jews have to carry out altogether?
A. Officially all this work had to be carried out. Afterwards various groups were taken aside. The first group of 1,200 men were taken away and they were taken to prison. From there many of these people did not return. Most of them were also my relatives and friends. On the third day we knew that these people were taken away to Dnjeporowsk, one kilometer for the town of Tarnopol, and they had been shot there. These graves can still be seen today.
Q. Witness, was there a slaughter house at Tarnopol?
A. Yes, many Jews were also taken to the slaughter house for work and terrible incidents occurred. Murders took place and Jews were beaten to death without any weapons. The Ukrainians would kill Jews with pick and shovels and the SS assisted them and they entertained themselves there.
Q. You heard yesterday that it was described to us that after the first troops had entered Tarnopol they moved on immediately and then for some period of time no German inits were in the city, it that correct?
A. No, I do not agree with that at all. Front the first day until the last day German units constantly occupied Tarnopal. From day to day more troops came there. It was not true that Tarnopol was free of German units. German units always remained there. It is true that on the first day motorized units were there and on the second and third day regular units arrived there with tanks and few repair units and then there were some combat engineers who came there.
Q. At Tarnopol did you see any SD men?
A. SD and SS men were there.
Q. How did you know these people?
A. I only know that I was informed that the worst ones were those who were wearing the black and brown uniforms. They were the SS and SD men. Several of them wore a death head insignia. That was the SS.
Q. Witness, do you have in your possession any pictures which you brough along from Poland.
A. Yes, as a reminder of all the terrible incidents, I obtained pictures and these pictures were taken during the first days in Galicia.
Q. Witness, will you pleas show these pictures to the Tribunal?
A. Please. I can show them, but I would like them to remain in my possession.
Q. Do you have any other pictures?
A. Yes, I have some more here.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: We would like to have the pictures numbered and then let the witness explain what each picture portrays ans shows.
Q. Witness, I am now going to number the pictures. The Tribunal would like you to explain just what the pictures portray ans where you obtained these pictures. Will you please put a member on the pictures and explain to us what they mean.
A. The first picture shows when the first units entered the city. That was at Galicia. This was in the Ukraine, and in the small city the Jews who had hidden in the cellars were taken out of their hiding places.
They had hidden and what was a proof of the fact that they did not dare to go into the streets. They were shot in the middle of the street, but before that the religious garments were put on them and the entire group of the SS entertained themselves with these people. Here is a whole row of people who had been shot and were lying the street and one man is still standing alive. Before they were shot they had to dance and entertain the SS men. This sis Picture No. 4.
THE PRESIDENT: Show it to the defense counsel too.
Q. Picture No. 5?
A. Picture No. 5 show that a group of officers have taken a Jew and they told him to put on his religious garments and they tore out his hair with pliars.
Picture No.1 Picture No. shows a group of young people and women and children who were placed together in one big square and the old people had to lie down and the young ones would sit on their backs and they had to run around like horses about twenty times. It should be understood here how children play. That is how the young people had to sit on the back of the old people and they had to run around and that was done for the best enterainment of the SS officers.
Now, I have Picture Number 2 here. This picture shows that a group of officers have taken an old Jew. He got down on his knees and bagged for his life and told them he was old; but he was shot in the back. I have one more picture here. This is Picture Number 3. It shows how all these Jews were taken out and assembled into one group. Then all the people had to sit down on the ground. They were not allowed to talk to each other. Afterwards the SS took them to the woods and shot the entire group there.
Q. Do you have another picture there?
A. Yes, but I request that the pictures be returned to me. This is the picture; but I don't know whether this is an SD man or an SS man. This happened at Kielce. Here he took a woman with her boy, took her to the water, and told her she should go into the water up to her neck. After the woman had already gone into the water, he shot her. He did not shoot the boy yet but stood there like a sadist, entertaining himself. This was No 6.
Picture Number 7 shows that it was taken in the year 1943. It shows here that all cities had to be free of Jews. The Jews had to be grouped into ghettoes. It is shown here how the resettlement of the Jews took place. Each of them was allowed to carry along ten to fifteen kilograms of baggage. The SS were standing there when the picture was taken, and they were enjoying themselves.
Q. I have a number of other questions to ask you. Witness, did you see these things yourself?
A. Yes, I saw many of them myself.
Q. During such incidents were relatives of yours killed?
A. I don't want to talk about acquaintances and relatives; but I want to tell about what I saw with regard to my father, on the 30th of August in 1943. At that time I, my father, my mother, four brothers, and two sisters were taken out of our apartment. Then we were taken to the woods.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Your Honor, I object to this question. The question obviously refers to the year 1943. I have understood you to say 1943. The year 1943, however, is not the subject of the trial with regard to any of the defendants as far as I am informed. In any case it does not concern Fanslau and Tschentscher, who are under discussion now.
A. May I continue?
THE PRESIDENT: Tho indictment covers from January 1933 to April 1945.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Your Honor, I am of the opinion that this testimony here is to be rebuttal testimony, and not one to serve as evidence to the prosecution.
THE PRESIDENT: Objection overruled.
BY MR. PONGER:
Q. Witness, please continue your description.
A. I wanted to tell the Tribunal about the time from 1941 on when the German troops occupied the city. However, you asked me whether I had experienced anything concerning my family; and I wanted to tell you what I saw with regard to my parents.
Q. Yes, please go on with your description.
A. In 1941 the following happened: When the Germans entered the city, the many people summoned to gather for work. Every day many of them were shot, first of all, those people who were too old to work quickly.
I only started to work on the second or third day because I was hiding on the first day. We had to load vehicles with corpses from the prison. We buried them about one kilometer from Tarnopol at Picketrow. Afterwards, on the third day, terrible pogroms took place. This was done by the Ukrainian police and by the SS and various military people. I cannot recall any more what insignia they were wearing because at the time I could not distinguish the difference between the SS and the SD.
At that time terrible measures were taken against the Jewish population of Tarnopol. The order was issued that every Jew had to wear a white arm-band so that he could be easily recognized as a Jew. Cases occurred where a Pole was shot because he was mistaken for a Jew. Anyone wearing this arm-band was not allowed to go with anybody else on the sidewalk. He was not allowed to enter the sidewalk of the street. Such terrible things happened at this time, so that some people tried to leave and others went into hiding. Then various actions took place. Orders were given that all Jews had to turn over their gold, jewelry, and all their valuables belongings. Whoever did not do so in time was shot immediately. These were the first days. The most frightful instances occurred in the slaughter house. Very few people returned home from there because most of them were killed while they were at work there. That is what I wanted to say about the first few days.
Q. Witness, at the time could you differentiate between the SS and the Wehrmacht?
A. I cannot recall that any more. I only know that some of them were wearing such arm-bands--I believe that was the SD--and the SS were wearing the SS insignia.
Some of them were wearing the Death Head insignia; but those with the Death Head insignia were the worst ones and the first ones to commence murdering.
Q. You have stated that many Ukrainians participated in these atrocities?
A. The Germans themselves were unable to got these people out of the cellars, and so they took Ukrainians to assist them.
Q. Witness, I have just heard that something was not included in the translation. Did you see these scenes yourself? Or did you see similar scenes?
A. Similar scenes. It happened in our city with regard to my own brother. When the Germans entered the city, my father was at the synagogue. They entered the synagogue and cut off his beard, just half his beard. This was done to make him look ridiculous. When my father came home, we did not recognize him since he was wearing only half his beard. That is what I saw. Many of my relatives and acquaintances were shot at the time. That happened in the first days of the occupation.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness started to tell about the experiences of his family in 1943. Then the objection was made; and after the objection was ruled upon, he didn't finish his statement. Will you ask him about that?
Q. Witness, you began to tell us about your father's death, and then you were interrupted. The Tribunal now would like you to continue your description of the story.
A. On the 30th of August 1943 at 12:00 in the evening, SS and the SD and many members of the Ukrainian police went around our city.
They surrounded the city; and an action was started. In German this was called Sussiedburg "resettlement." All the people were taken out of the cellars and from airraid shelters. They were then put into one big square. Afterwards, all of us were taken to the woods. At the woods big trenches had already been dug. These graves were about ten meters in length, four meters in width, and two meters in depth. I was there at that time, along with my sisters and brothers and my mother and father. Outside the city there was a steep incline, and I jumped off there. I jumped down and ran into the woods. Then shooting started. They fired at me, but I managed to escape. On that day I lost my father, mother, brothes, and sisters. All of these people are buried in the woods two kilometers from the city. That is how I was able to save my life. Afterwards I was caught and put in a camp. Hauptsturufishrer Redel (?) was in charge of that camp. I stayed there until 1943. Then a certain agent of the secret police told us that at 12:00 that night an extermination squad came to the camp. I was able to escape to the woods with eight colleagues at 1200 hours. There was no barbed wire there charged with electricity; and that is why we were able to escape. I stayed in the woods with the partisans until our liberation. The Russian troops came into our area on the 30th of March 1944, and I was then liberated. That is how I was able to save my life.
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Where did you got the photographs that you have shown?