A. Those were definite records which we called messages from the OKH, the chief command of the army. Those were small newspapers, the size of a sheet to typewritter paper, which contained press reports. Those were general directives for the political and military situation, with special emphasis as to the use of these things for the troops.
Q. So that part of this course, part of these lectures was directed towards teaching the troops what they needed to know about politics, etc.?
A. Yes, I suspect that the command of the army which edited these leaflets had close contact with the propaganda ministry of Goebbels. These different agencies must have been in agreement with each other.
Q. And, naturally, they were concerned with such things as the world outlook of the Waffen-SS, that sort of thing?
A. No, these army leaflets were not. They didn't have any special emphasis on the Waffen-SS, but the will-known information bulletins which you submitted to me, the information bulletins of the Waffen-SS which the prosecution submitted some time ago, they were also distributed. Ten or twenty men received such a bulletin which then circulated among the men.
Q. I want you to look at this document here, #1805, and tell me if this was the same general sort of material that you used. Would you mind identifying that to the court?
A. I don't know this journal, but I see that it was edited by the SS Main Office, Nordland Publication, but this isn't the material which I mean. I don't know the title of these bulletins. I think they were information bulletins.
Q. Well, this publication you had in your hand there came from the WVHA, didn't it.
A. No, that came from the SS Main Office.
Q. What was the publishing company?
A. It was printed by the Nordland Editions in Berlin, but the editor seems to have been the SS Main Office.
Q. It was published by this Nordland Publishing Company which was in W-5, was it not? I beg your pardon, W-7.
A. It must have been printed there. I can't tell which is the date of the edition.
Q. Do you recognize the magazine?
A. No, I said already I don't know this magazine and this shows pictures of Russia. Therefore, it must have been edited during the Russian campaign or later, and I spoke specifically of the training before the Russian campaign for, in Russia during the Russian campaign, there was not time for a political enlightenment of the troops.
Q. What is the title of this magazine? Do you remember?
A. No, I don't. What it says it "The Sub-Human", but this might not have been the title.
Q. I'd like to ask the Secretary to mark this for identification.
SECRETARY-GENERAL: 639.
BY MR. FULDERSON:
Q. Exhibit 639, yes. The general contents of that magazine are familiar to you? You have heard it before. You had a chance to glance at it.
A. I have just seen it now.
Q. But I mean, the general character of its contents are not strange to you?
A. I've seen similar things, not with this tendency for this shows a picture of atrocitier and murders. I recall that, I believe, a socalled "Brown Book" was published after the beginning of the Polish campaign about the incidents in Bromberg, the so-called "Bromberg Bloody Sunday", and I saw a similar magazine on the train trip to the northern front. This book was concerned also with matters of the Russian policy in the Baltic.
These journals had more of an anti-Bolshevist tendency.
Q. But the general contents of this magazine, for example, the caption of one of those pictures there under a collection of photographs of President Roosevelt, Churchill, and Mayor LaGuardia is that "Jews are Jews and swine are swine". That's nothing new to you, Your're familiar with this type of publication.
A. Pardon me, but Churchill being a Jew is entirely new to me. I never heard of that. But this daring assumption, I have certainly not gone through all this with closed eyes but I've heard quite often very nasty and definitely propagandastic claims and I have discussed these with others and we just shrugged our shoulders to this and we just let ourselves be convinced that the others didn't do it any better either. That's unfortunately the nasty effect of such wars. The human excitement which is generated by these wars. I have seen descriptions in Russian papers which were not flattering either, and, as a thinking man, one can have ones own ideas about it but one does not have to identify one's self with that and one does not have to pass it on either. It would be as if you, Mr. Prosecutor, were to ask me if I approved of The Stuermer, Mr. Streicher's paper. I would say "no" That's a matter of Taste.
Q. Now, what were some of these political subjects you lectured on?
A. Well, I didn't lecture on political themes. I have already mentioned that I spoke about the tactics of committing supply units. That was a lecture in three parts and I definitely recall that, for a definite reason, I once spoke to the young men of the whole battalion about our position toward marriage, toward women and toward children.
Q. Well, what was your position toward marriage in the SS? What did you tell them?
A. I believe I can briefly describe it this way. The opinion of a decent man anywhere that the marriage is a serious tie for life and not, as it is often described today and as it us unfortunately considered by supervicial human beings here and there, that marriage - I must express it drastically - is an institution for raising children.
Q. Excuse me. In the course of discussing marriage, did you ever mention to them that certain standards should be hold to so far as the selection of a wife was concerned? That there were certain....
A. (Interrupting) Yes, yes, of course.
Q. For example, did you tell them that, as members of the Waffen-SS, as the purest Nordic strain that could be found, that they ought not to taint their blood by marrying Jewish girls, for example?
A. I beg your pardon, Mr. Prosecutor, but I must laugh at this. the situation is actually too serious for that. If I could demonstrate with my own wife. She hardly reachs up to my shoulder and there is definitely strong French blood in her. Not what one considers as a pure Germanic woman. That is to say, in my own case, this matter has led to absurdism.
Q. As a matter of fact, the deed was done in your case by the time you were giving these lectures. You were advising these young men on what they should do. Is that not true?
All right. Enough of this.
DR. HOFFMAN: Your Honor, I don't want to interfere with the cross examination but I personally have often heard the Tribunal say: "What does this question have to do with the indictment?", and I believe that these questions about the Nordic strain, about marriage, have nothing at all to do with the indictment and I can't see what it has to do with the cross examination. If these questions are however taken up, then I must assume that the prosecution will make use of it in its final pleas, but I ask the court to draw the prosecution's attention to the fact that should keep themselves to the indictment which is not the case here.
MR. FULKERSON: I think it is fairly clear what the purpose of these questions are, if Your Honor please, that they certainly go to the credibility of the witness. Here a man says he got up and gave a lecture to the Waffen-SS about the marriage question, and never suggested that the racial theory could not be considered. I think it is a matter that goes to his credibility.
THE PRESIDENT: Well -
MR. FULKERSON: However, I am willing to discontinue this discussion. I have had enough of it.
THE PRESIDENT: I think there are more important things to be inquired into.
MR. FULKERSON: Yes.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q Witness, do you remember the affidavit which you made, and which has already been introduced in evidence here? Do you remember here that was the affidavit which you made?
A The one which I submitted on 14 January, here?
Q Yes?
A Yes.
Q Excuse me, witness, I am sorry, but I withdraw that question. I am going to hand you a document No. 1159. I want you read it to the court, and tell what it is?
A It is an order for my transfer after my activity with the Wiking Division to Obersalzberg, which I already mentioned before, and by attorney Pribilla, taking up a new position on 2 January 1942, as director of the SS Administration, Obersalzberg. There I was for three months.
Q I shall show you this document No. 1160 and ask you to identify it?
A That is a promotion by my divisional commander 14 police division Hueneberg three months after my transfer to Obersalzberg; upon my own personal request I was transferred, to my field unit.
This must have been the end of 1942 when this request for promotion was written.
Q Do you remember reading something about this remark in pencil? Read it?
A "1 December 1940 to 15 February 1942, the Division-Wiking." This statement is not correct. Evidently the Police Division where I was didn't know this, I can prove that during these three months I was in the obersalzberg, for on 15 April I arrived at the Police Division, that is correct.
Q I am going to hand you document 1157. Please tell the court what that is, and read the entries between the brackets?
A It says, ".14 1942 1 January, SS, Sturmbannfuehrer, SS Administrative, Obersalzberg. "I can not read what it says below.
Q What is the document? Can you now tell what it is. Will you identify it for the court?
A That seems to be a personnel report which was made out in the personnel office. I don't know this. Probably it is a file noting my address, and my position, and all my personal data.
Q Of course, that is your file, then?
A That is a personnel file, I imagine. I don't know. This probably was merely the personnel files in the card index.
Q Now, in the affidavit that you have given here, you said this, and I am reading from it, "At this time," referring to 30 November 1940, "I was transferred to the Division-Wiking." Then you go on and say: "With this Division I took part in the first Russian campaign, and was releived effective 31 December 1941, and transferred to Obersalzberg." You said that, didn't you?
A Yes, that is correct, insofar as I was there until the 31 December of that year, I actually belonged to the Wiking Division. I merely had an order for an official trip to Germany, an order which I got on 21 November, an order to take care of winter clothing, and this was quite conceivable, considering the season.
Then I had my furlough at home, which I already mentioned, but on the other hand I had to be kept on record until 1 January, and on that date I reported to Obersalzberg for duty.
Q Now, according to Otto's testimony, if I recall correctly, this incident at Dnjepopetrowsk took part around the beginning of December. The incident which I had in mind?
A Yes, that is right.
Q According to your personal files, according to an order transferring you from the Wiking Division, and, according to your affidavit, you were transferred from the Wiking Division on 31 December, or 1 January?
A Formally, my membership in the Wiking Division ceased with the last day of the year, 1941.
Q And according to your testimony and according to what is known or raised in these documents, you left your outfit on 21 November?
A Practically speaking, I left the unit on 21 November, as I already said. I did not return after that.
Q Now while you were in Russia, did you ever hear of the SD?
A Nothing specific about the SD. I know that somewhere, I cannot tell you today where it was, whether it was on the northern front, or down there, I met a SD man on a station. They wore a uniform similar to the SS, and they had the police shoulder clasps, and on the sleeves they wore a square with the silver lettering "SD", and I asked this man surprised what he was doing here. He was a non-commissioned officer, and he gave me an evasive answer that he had a political mission, and I did not see fit to press this man and ask him exactly what his mission was, as there was such a thing as a secret field police unit, and all kinds of security units, as every army has which goes out into an area. That is the only experience with a SD man that I had.
Q That is the only time you ever saw a SD man in Russia?
A That I noticed him, yes.
Q Now did you ever, while you were in Russia, come in contact with the Einsatzgruppen, or an Einsatz-unit, or the Sonder-kommando?
A No, I can definitely deny that.
Q Did you know that such units existed in Russia?
A No, it was not known to me. I did not. I may say one thing here, Mr. Prosecutor, the word "Einsatzgruppen" as of today has quite a different sense in meaning. At that time one spoke of the Einsatz in all kinds of connections. In the mobilization regulations of the German Army, they did not mention war, but they mentioned: "in a case of a special commitment;" that a large supply and ministrative regulations for the army were abbreviated "EVDG"*
Q In using the word "Einsatzgruppe" as having the connotation it has today, there is no doubt in your mind what the Einsatzgruppes were, now, is there?
A May I express myself this way. If I had heard the word I would not have imagined anything special under it there were so many branches of service, so many technical branches, such as the Organization Todt, and in fact I can not remember them all now. So far as an Einsatzgruppe, it would not surprise me very much, and I would have, perhaps, imagined a special combat group. It is quite thinkable that this word might have reached my ears one time or the other, but I did not have any special idea about the meaning.
Q You did not know there was a group of men who were under the general jurisdiction of the SD?
A No.
Q For carrying out these systematic killings of various inferior or undesirable groups of the population?
A No.
Q You never heard of that at all?
A In no way.
THE PRESIDENT: 9:30 tomorrow morning.
MR. FULKERSON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 29 August 1947, at 0930 hours)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al., defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 29 August 1947. 0930-1630, Justice Robert M. Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
MILITARY TRIBUNAL II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
ERWIN TSCHENTSCHER - (resumed) CROSS EXAMINATION (continued) BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q Now, yesterday, I believe you testified, witness, that only on one isolated occasion did you see a SD man the whole time that you were in Russia?
A Excuse me, I did not get the ending. At what occasion did you say?
Q (The question was repeated)
A Yes, that is correct, quite.
Q Now, you also testified yesterday, I believe, that at the time you left your outfit and went back to Dnjepopetrowsk, this was in November, according to your testimony that you had difficulty finding the divisional headquarters in Dnjepopetrowsk?
A No, no, that is wrong. It was a matter of finding a possibility of flying back, when I tried with an agency of the Luftwaffe.
Q Did the Wiking Division have men who went up to Dnjepopetrowsk on leave, for example, during this period?
A Dnjepopetrowsk was an outpost, an outpost of our division. There we had a camp where clothes were stocked, and in this outpost I spent the night.
Q And when the men in your Wiking Division went on leave, for example, when you were around Kovo Nikuro, back near Dnjepopetrowsk, that is where they would spend the night?
A Well, I spent the night there at least. I think I understand you correctly, that you ask if I spent the night, is that what you asked?
Q No, I mean -
A Excuse me, I see now you refer to the others?
Q Yes.
A The others? Now, they did not spend the night there. They hardly ever came to this outpost. I don't know through what channels and how they would go about having quarters for the night. First of all, there were very few furloughs given during this period, because of the fact that the Division was engaged in hard battles, and the direct way of going back was quite a different way. This way, Dnjepopetrowsk, in itself was a detour, which I used.
Q When did you go near Dnjepopetrowsk for the first time?
A Just at that period we were quite near Dnjepopetrowsk, a certain number of kilometers from Dnjepopetrowsk, but to Dnjepopetrowsk itself we only came for the first time on that occasion.
Q Now at the Stuetzpunkt there was, I assume, an officer of the Wiking Company in this outpost?
A This Stuetzpunkt was commanded by an officer, but I can not recall what was his name. You had to have a man there in order to administer these magazines, this stock of clothing.
Q And there was a definite liaison, of course, between this Stuetzpunkt and the supply service, were there not?
A No, there was only the occasional liaison. No constant liaison. There was no mail connection, no telegraph, and no railway connection either between the two.
Q What was the liaison? What was this occasional liaison?
A Well, when somebody like myself would go back once, then, of course he would know that he had to shelter me there, and provide quarters, and, if necessary also food there, and it was exactly the same if somebody came from home on furlough and wanted to join his Division again. Then when you came to Dnjepopetrowsk, perhaps you would find an outpost of the Wiking Division at that particular point. It was the same as here now. You have signs, road signs, where all units are marked.
Q Then there was a pretty constant concourse of people going between the outpost and the Division. The men who had come from the Division back to near Dnjepopetrowsk were people who were coming from the honeland going to the Division?
A No, just the contraty, as I said. It was only quite occasional, and rather rarely.
Q You knew that this outpost was there before you went back on this occasion?
A Yes, and that was the very reason why I went by Dnjepopetrowsk, because once we had a stock of clothing there, and my last official function was to see that the Division was to procure further clothing for the winter, and to have it sent there for the division. That is, before I would return to the Reich, I had to find out about this clothing reserve at Dnjepopetrowsk and what it amounted to, and what we would have to procure in addition, eventually, if necessary.
Q Now who kept order near Dnjepopetrowsk, did the Wiking Division?
A That was the duty of the Wehrmacht District Kommandantura, the Wehrmacht Standortkommandantur. Around the larger city were the commanders of the rear with the Security Staff I did not make a special investigation near Dnjepopetrowsk, I made no special investigation there, but I think it was the same there as anywhere else.
Q There was no evidence that there was any SD detachment around, any detachment of the Higher SS and Police Leader there?
A Noo I did not hear anything about any such thing, and I ask you to take into consideration the fact that I was there only for a very few hours, only during the evening of that day, and that is why I could not make any investigation there.
Q Well, did you ever hear any general conversation not necessarily while you were at the outpost, but while you were with your own outfit that there had been any particular massacre near Dnjepopetrowsk?
A No, at no time.
Q Now, I am going to hand you a document No. 2832, and I want you to turn to page 23 of the original, after you have identified it to the court, and give the date. Just identify this as Mr. Fanslau did the other documents yesterday?
A Well, only that one page?
Q Identify the document. Look on the first page?
A Well, this is a report on events, "Chief Security Police and SD." Dated 19 November 1941
Q That is enough of identification. Now, I shall ask you to turn to page 23 and read the passage that is marked there between the brackets; actually there is a part of a sentence on the next page, and read that too. Please read it slowly so that the translator can translate it?
A Well, it reads as follows, this paragraph, and is as follows: "Of about 100,000 Jews who originally were at Dnjepopetrowsk, about 70,000 had left before our division was marching up; of 30,000 remaining Jews, about 10,000 on 13 October 1941 were executed by detachment of the Higher SS and Police leader. Until date of report is dispatched, six further thousand of Jews had been shot by the Einsatzkommando, and it was unavoidable for reasons of the lack of skilled workers to exempt Jewish workers needed for special work, to let them alive for the time being."
Q That is sufficient. You never heard of any Jews being killed near Dnjepopetrowsk?
A No. Nor did I hear even that at Dnjepopetrowsk there had been so many Jews at all.
MR. FULKERSON: I have no further questions.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Witness, do you know the witness Sauer who just recently testified on the stand here?
A Well, I recall him. I remember that he was with our battalion at that time, yes.
Q He testified that he was in the Butcher Company, and that you were his commanding officer for sometime?
A Yes, that may be correct.
Q He testified to the following in regard to your attitude towards the Jews: It is found on page 6566 of the record. The question was to him: "Q What were your instructions about the Jewish question?" His answer was: "A Well, for instance, that the Jews were a foreign body within the community of the German people, and the solution was that the Jews should disappear from Germany, either go to foreign countries, to permanently settle in other countries, or brought to concentration camps and places like that.
Q Who gave these lectures," was the next question. "A These lectures were given by Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher himself, in some cases, or by the company chief in other cases. Q How many times do you estimate that Tschentscher gave lectures to you. A In Dachau and Huberg altogether a total of five or six times, as far as I can remember."
What have you to say to that testimony?
Court No. II, Case No. IV
A. I have already testified yesterday that altogether I made only four to five lectures to the whole battalion, and that was in Dachau. Mainly it was a matter of the questions of assignment and of securing the supplies for the troops in combat.
I recall another topic which I mentioned also yesterday, and I have to re-iterate that I never made any particular speeches with regard to the Jewish question of of any content of agitation against the Jews. The question of a solution via the concentration camps was not discussed at all in amy circles at that time.
Q. So you deny his testimons as far as the Jewish question is concerned?
A. Yes, I do deny that.
Q. Did you ever have any trouble with this soldier?
A. I can't recall anything of the kind.
Q. Did you ever discipline him for anything?
A. I could not even discipline him because he belinged to another company.
Q. Then you didn't discipline him then. That is all I want to know.
A. No, I can't recall.
Q. Didn't he have a good record with your outfit, lost an arm in the war, was a good soldier?
A. Well, he lost the arm only later, Your Honor, but I can't tell you anything concerning the man otherwise. I don't know anything good about him, but I don't know anything against him. I only remember his face somehow.
Q. Do you know of any reason why he should come here under oath and testify against you as he has?
A. Your Honor, the only explanation I can find is that such an opinion--or should we say tendencies--were also brought to these people through other channels.
May I only point to the infamous agitation leaflet, "Der Sturmer". I think that man will have some difficulty in remembering where he got that knowledge and from whom he got these tendencies, and probably he identifies that today with the lectures which I gave.
Q. But you have no knowledge of any reason why this man should come here and testify from a personal feeling towards you as he has testified?
A. No, I can't imagine.
Q. Well, you heard his testimony in regard to what he saw when your battalion came into the town of Zlotzow?
A. Zlotzow, yes.
Q. About the Jews lying on the street, about Jews being driven from their homes and herded up near the citadel and forced to open this mass grave where the Ukrainians had been buried, and the beatings which the Jews received in the streets publicly then. Did you see any of that?
A. Well, I have to say **hatically "No" to that question.
Q. Well, you heard his testimony in regard to the Jews that were killed in the courtyard, where your office was located and where your car was stationed, and that the whole battalion knew about it, and that the execution was committed by a man under your command. Do you know anything about that?
A. You are referring, Your Honor, to Shitomir now, aren't you?
Q. Yes.
A. Well, it has already been established that I haven't even been at Shitomir and that at the time when this occurred I was sick and was out of town or I had already gone to Skwira. Anyhow, not the whole of the battalion was stationed there together.
Q. You know nothing of that instance?
A. Not the slightest shade.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That is all.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
EXAMINATION
Q. Witness, I want to show you Exhibit 639, which you saw yesterday--this illustrated booklet that was published by the SS and printed by an SS controlled printshop. You say you never saw this before?
A. This leaflet--no, Your Honor.
Q. Well, did you ever see one like it?
A. No.
Q. It was published and distributed by the SS, of which you were a high ranking officer, but you never saw it?
A. Well, I ask Your Honor to take into consideration-
Q. I just asked you-
A. That during this period-
Q. Yes, go ahead.
A. --that during this period, after all, we were far in Russia and that for weeks and weeks, if not even for months, we would not receive a newspaper.
Q. I didn't ask you whether you saw it while you were in Russia. Did you ever see it?
A. Well, yesterday I testified that there were publications concerning brutalities which had been compiled in such a way that the descriptions of the executions and of the victims were given and also perhaps of captured criminals who committed the brutalities. I have seen that in connection with the Rundfunk Bromberg in 1939, and I recall having seen that as a book in Latvia, at the Riga station. There at the kiosk in the station these booklets were sold.
Q. I am not talking about reports of criminal executions. There is nothing in this pamphlet about criminals or executions. Did you ever see a book like this before, in Russia or in Germany or anywhere else?
A. No, Your Honor.
Q. Well, to whom were these booklets distributed, if not to the high ranking SS officers?
A. Well, I couldn't tell you that, Your Honor, but maybe they were sold in the newspaper kiosks.
Q. Well didn't you ever buy newspapers at the newspaper kiosks?
A. Yes, but not during that period, certainly not, Your Honor.
Q. What period?
A. Well, I assume, Your Honor, that this leaflet was issued in the autumn of 1941 perhaps.
Q. I don't know. There is no date on it. I assume that it is just one of a series that was issued throughout the war. There is no date on it.
A. Well, I couldn't tell you either, Your Honor. Anyhow, I don't know it.
Q. Did you regard the Dutch Jews in the same class of sub-humans as you did the Russians?
A. Your Honor, I did not have any categories for myself of these Jews at all. After all, I didn't know any Dutch Jews, at least not practically.
Q. Well, you didn't have to know them to hate them.
A. Your Honor, I think that I may claim for myself that during my whole life I never was a fanatic.
Q. Well, you were a high ranking officer in a fanatic society, weren't you?
A. Well, I think, Your Honor, that I may say that the fanaticism was not the decisive moment in our organization at all.
It is a fact that certain circles, of course, became fanatical, and that is very regretable and very bad.
Q. Well, I am looking now at an official publication of your whole circle, the whole SS. This magazine with the photographs in it was printed and distributed by the SS, not by any particular fanatical circle. What does this mean, in German: "Herausgeben: Der Reichsfuehrer--Hauptamt"?
A. Your Honor, yesterday I said that this was the SS Main Office, which was presided over by Obergruppenduehrer Berger. He was the Chief of that Main Office. Concerning the tasks and functions of this Main Office, and particularly during the war, I can not give you any information from my own knowledge. I never dealt with this Main Office. I don't know Berger personally. Apart from that, I don't know any higher officers in this Main Office either.
Q. Well, this magazine came right out from headquarters, right from the fountainhead of the SS, didn't it?
A. Your Honor, no, that is wrong. The headquarters-if I may term it that way--was the SS-Operational Main Office, (SS-Fuehrungs-Hauptamt).
Q. What does "Hauptamt" mean?
A. Well, I could hardly give you a right answer to this question, Your Honor.
Q. Well, translated literally, it means "high office" doesn't it? "Hauptamt".
A. Well, it was one of the twelve or thirteen main offices that we had, Your Honor, but according to my knowledge this Main Office had lost most of its importance during the war. I thought that the SS Main Office--and, Your Honor, please believe me that this is only my personal assumption-