THE PRESIDENT: I think the form of your question should be, "Is it a fact that so and so occurred," without saying "If General Barzilowski should tell me and should tell you, what would you say?"
THE WITNESS: May I add shortly that, when I said , Barzilowski was known to me as a chief of anti-partisan warfare, I must add, but at a time when I wasn't in the East at all anymore, and I believe also that he was only committed after I had been in the East, and we did not come across any guerrillas at the front. The Political leaders forced these guerrillas on our necks.
THE PRESIDENT: We are not talking about the guerrillas. Will you answer this question? Was it true while you were in Poland and the Ukraine that although there was no special order, nevertheless, it was understood by all SS men that if Jews were exterminated no one would be held accountable for it?
THE WITNESS: Such an order was never make in our service either verbally or written, at least not to my knowledge.
THE PRESIDENT: But was it generally understood among the SS, even without an order, that Jews could be killed and no one would be court-martialled or punished?
THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor. I hope my division commander will come to the witness stand. During the Polish campaign such acts were supposed to have occurred, and the judgment against one or two SS men reads as follows: "Penitentiary for about 8 or 12 years," and the divisional commander, Steiner, asked for the death penalty. May I say, Your Honor, I didn't hear this only after the end of the war.
THE PRESIDENT: What was that punishment for?
THE WITNESS: Because the two SS men---I think they were SS men --- permitted themselves excesses during house to house fighting, during which civilians participated and they took justice into their own hands then. This is the way it was told to me. I only mention it, because I assume that the Division Commander Steiner will appear here in person.
Q. (By Mr. Wolf) How many court-martial proceedings for such deeds by Steiner are known to you which have been taken against SS members?
A. I never was active in court-martial affairs.
Q. How many of these judicial proceedings are known to you have occurred in your own division?
A. I don't know any such occurrences in our division, or even in the first division with which I was.
Q. Am I to take it from that that in your division no courtmartial proceedings took place on account of murders of Jews or other atrocities on the part of the SS?
A. I cannot answer that, either with yes or with no. I don't know.
Q. But you were a division administrative officer?
A. Yes, but not a division judge advocate.
Q. Didn't such proceedings, files, papers, have to go through your hands before they would come before the SS tribunal?
A. This conclusion is not comprehensible to me. I was in charge of the supply battalion. I never had anything to do with such affairs.
Q. You said that you did not know anything about any guerrilla fighting during your time?
A. No, we never heard anything about that at that time.
Q. But you told us very vividly about the death of SS Standartenfuehrer Weckerle.
A. I also mentioned that this was in the course of combat and that this took place in an area which was designated as front area.
Q. And there were guerrillas?
A. It wasn't known by whom he was shot. When enemies face each other no one can say who fired the individual shot.
MR. WOLFE: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment please.
EXAMINATION BY THE COURT BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. How long altogether were you in the Polish and Ukraine campaign? How long were you in the field?
A. I was in the field from the beginning of the war, or, that is, pardon me, four weeks after the beginning of the war until the end of September, 1941.
Q. Well, you weren't on the Eastern Front all that time, were you?
A. No, as I have stated, Your Honor, from the beginning of the Eastern Campaign until the 29th or 30th of September.
Q. Well, when was the beginning of the Eastern Campaign?
A. On the 21st or 22nd of June, 1941.
Q. And then you were in the Polish and Ukrainian Campaign about three months from late in June until the end of September?
A. Yes, the Russian Campaign included the Ukraine.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you get those two documents that were shown to the witness, please? Give them to the witness.
Q. These are the two documents that were shown to you earlier in the session?
A. Yes.
Q. How many Jews are mentioned as having been shot in these documents?
A. May I first look at it, Your Honor? I don't know the number of the page. Once 100 Jews and afterwards it says the number of liquidated Jews amounts to from 300 to 500.
Q. In another place it says 113.
MR. FULKERSON: I'd like to make an explanation to the court. These extracts that he read were picked out by me merely because they referred to the same places that he was talking about at approximately the same time.
These documents actually contain reports on the operations of the Einsatzgruppen in the entire USSR and there are thousands of such incidents listed in them, but for that reason I only abstracted a part and that is the part that he read.
THE PRESIDENT: That is what I am interested in, it is the number of casualties in the same area and at approximately the same time.
A. May I continue please? Then the next number is 600; then in one place, Schorostoka, which I don't know and have never mentioned; 110; then 400.
Q. Well, then, just from these documents it appears that about 2,600 Jews were shot by the EinsatzCommandos in this general area where your battalion was and during the time that you were there?
A. No, not during the time that I was there, Your Honors.
Q. Oh, yes, this is in July and August, 1941.
A. But then we were about 300 to 400 kilometres further forward.
Q. Well, all right, I am not trying to pin it down to the place where you were standing, but in the Ukraine and in Eastern Poland, while you were going through there, and after you had gone through, about 2,600 Jews were killed?
A. About when I passed through, Your Honor? Is that correct? Was that translated correctly?
Q. Yes, either While you were going through or after you had passed through with your battalion.
A. Yes.
Q. That's right, of course, this only just ore little spot. It has nothing to do with the thousands of others in Russia and Northern Poland and you never witnessed or hear about any one of these murders?
A. No.
Q. And you didn't even know that Einsatzkommandos were there?
A. No.
THE PRESIDENT: I have no further question.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q. Witness, we must determine the dates more closely once more. The report about the incident at Zcloozow, if you will look at that once more, say that what happened there was on what date?
A. On the 7th of July, 1941.
Q. Where were you on the 7th of July?
A. In the area east of Tarnopol. It must have been Brossilow. One moment please I think Stara Konstantino is the place. About and around tha arra of Brossilow. That is about 100 Kilometres east of Tarnopol.
Q. And how far is Tarnopol from Zcloozow.
A. I can just roughly estimate that. I assume about 80 to 100 kilometres.
Q. And how was you contact with the rear area. Did you have continuous communications?
A. No, we only had content from the division to our supply unit. We had on other chain of command or communications.
Q. So, as far as what happened behind the rear area, that supply unit, you had no contact?
A. 0, just merely a few vehicles which belonged to some kind of a corps supply unit. The corps supply unit was located south or north of us. That was different in every case.
Q. What does it say on the report -- what is the secrecy designation on the front page on the other document?
A. On every one of them it reads, "Top Secret"
Q. Which grade of secrecy is this?
A. That is the highest grade of secrecy
THE PRESIDENT: That means the report is top secret.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: But the event wasn't.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Your Honor, I believe that the incident in any case was kept as secret as possible.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it is pretty hard to keep a secret when you shoot 113 jews out in an open field, isn't it?
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Your Honor, during war, when communications are interrupted, only the neighborhood knows about it. I don't think that this would be communicated very quickly in the war.
THE PRESIDENT: It's fairly public, wouldn't you say to stand 113 Jews up and shoot them out in the open country. There's nothing much secret about that, to anybody that was in the neighborhood.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Yes, that's right. Yes, Your Honor, but only in the immediate proximity. I believe if one were to ask people from neighboring towns for example, from the neighboring town of Zcloozow, that you would find that the neighboring villages got news of this only very much later. I assume that the communications of news are interrupted and that only military communications are kept up.
THE PRESIDENT: But the best communication system in the world is the mouth-to-car system. That never breaks down.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Your Honor, but this system only goes as far mouth and ear get together. During the war the villages are separated and can only be limited to the village where people are gathered together, but it cannot go on to the next village, and to the next village where the defendant was and to add it this, Your Honor, on must not forget in what position the defendant found himself.
It could easily be that something like that would become known more quickly among the population than in the military.
THE PRESIDENT: Why do you say that? The Einsatzkommandoes were composes of SS and police personnel were they not?
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: SS and police leaders were in charge of the Einsatzkommandos and the witness was an SS man.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Your Honor, but he was a member of a combat unit which was subordinated to the Army.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I know , he was Waffen SS.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Waffen SS, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: You think he be the last person in the world to hear about these things.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Not in the world, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: In the Ukraine?
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Not even in the Ukraine, Your Honor, but, Your Honor, I really consider it doubtful, according to my own conviction that the things which happened behind the front were disseminated to the front. Rather it was disseminated to the rear.
THE PRESIDENT: I see. Well, I didn't mean to put you on the witness stand, DR. Von Stakelberg.
Q. Witness, you also spoke of the Jewish progrom in Tarnopol, which according to the statements there took place between the 29th of July and the 14th of August, 1941, is that correct? That is the time the report shows. Where were you at that time?
A. Just from my memory I think it must have been in the area of BialaZierkew and still further east. The Biala-Zierkew exactly at the time and them even further on by Taraschka at Bugoslw. That is to say, at that time on the 29th of July, as the report begins here, we were fighting east of Biala-Zierkew.
Q. And then the village which was mentioned, Brossilow, was that known to you?
A. No, I never heard of it until today.
Q. Don't you know where it is?
A. No, I have no idea.
Q. Is it stated where the incidents took place in Brossilow?
A. In what document was this mention. I can't ever find Brossilow in here.
Q. It was in the third document which was submitted to you.
A. Yes, her they speak of 29 communists and 5 agents.
Q. When?
A. One moment please. The only date that is mentioned-there is the date on which the report was made out, the 20th of August, 1941.
Q. Witness, what was your contact with the civilian population? Did you have any chance to exchange you ideas with the civilian population or any news?
A. No.
Q. Did you learn anything from the civilian population?
A. Personally for example never had any contact with the civilian population.
Only one time when my vehicle gave out on the read I had today in a village. We were--there were only two single vehicles.
Q. And with the rear area agencies, did you have any contact with them, any communications?
A. We didn't have any other rear area agencies as we ourselves were our own supply units for our immediate combat units.
Q. No, I mean with these agencies who committed these atrocities.
A. No, I never heard anything about them. It was completely out of the question.
Q. But I want to hear, I want to have a clarification of this. Did you have any contact with these agencies?
A. No, I never saw any SD agency, office group or staff.
Q. Were men from these groups or detachments or staffs, did anyone of them come to pass through your units?
A. No, I would like to add here there were the field police who were responsible for all the police measures in the combat units. We never had directly or indirectly anything to do with the SD. We were soldiers of the Army in combat. These, the field police, were recognizable by insignia, breast plates.
Q. Officially or unofficially did you have anything to do with members of the rear area services, or did you have any contact with them?
A. Unofficially not at all, and officially I only had anything to do with the corps whenever they was moved further back with the Army corps.
Q. That is a combat unit. I mean with the noncombat units.
A. I didn't want to give anything wrong, any wrong data, because these Army corps had something to do with these supply units. The Army provides us with the supply.
Q. But you know I am asking in a different direction. I would like to know if you had anything to do with those agencies who committed those atrocities?
A. No, in no way.
Q. How do you explain the fact that you had no knowledge whatever of these incidents even though you were always within a radius of three hundred kilometers from the places where the incidents took place?
A. I would like to mention very briefly the following about the eastern campaign. As rapidly as we progressed during combat, it happened that fifty kilometers behind the front, then two hundred to three hundred kilometers, there were only very few occasional soldiers to be met there, since all rear area troops, or occupation troops could not follow that quickly into the empty regions. That is that the field command the true commands of the Army, came into this vacant space of two hundred to two hundred fifty kilometers. They could not even come there that quickly. There was, in other words, a fighting front, German soldiers, then it happened that the next supply units or occupation troops of two of three days before were already two to three hundred kilometers behind us. I would like to state once more clearly the tasks of the immediate combat troops, troop units, which were fighting, and the immediate supply units. That is one group in itself, and then after the front progressed about two hundred to three hundred kilometers in the space, which is four to six days behind us, this was then taken up by the so-called occupation Army. There was always a large empty space between the fighting units and the occupation units.
Q. And this vacant region, is that true also for the communicating troops? Isn't there any contact, any communications between these two groups?
A. I would like to also say we got our most important military communications is such a difficult manner from the rear courriers alone needed several days until they could reach us, the official courriers.
Q. Let us have this quite clearly now. We have got the advancing combat units as one whole conception.
A. Yes.
Q. As far as communications and orders are concerned. And then during your raped advance in Russia there is a vacant region from a military point of view sometimes of a width of several kilometers?
A. Mostly two hundred to three hundred kilometers.
Q. And then gradually the occupation army follows?
A. And then comes the occupation army with all other facilities, Road building police measures, measures for the population, and with the population and all the that belongs to the occupation army.
Q. And where does, where do these SD. units belong?
A. They came together with the occupation army at the earliest date.
Q. And you yourself say that the official messages, the-
MR. FULKERSON: He testified this morning that he never heard of the SD in Russia. How can he answer this question as to when the SD came in?
THE WITNESS: I can only tell this from the data that are given here. I can see from these data a clear difference. I can see how many days are between the fighting troops and these reports by the SD. There isn't two weeks behind.
THE PRESIDENT: You might have saved your comment either for crossexamination or argument.
MR. FULKERSON: I beg your pardon.
Q. (By Dr. Von Stakelberg) And the communication of official messages needed days, you say?
A. For every courrier that the I/A received - the I/A is the most important man to the commander - the messengers for the fighting units needed usually eight days to get through this vacant space.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Well now, you described the plan of advance of the German Army. The fighting troops forge ahead as fast as they can, and then behind them is a vacum, an empty space sometimes two hundred kilometers.
A. Yes.
Q. And then eventually these comes the occupation army and the SD?
A. Yes, I said police measures for the occupation army.
Q. They come in together by they are far behind the fighting front. They are far behind the fighting troops?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, how do you suppose this happened? This is at Zhitomir on the 20th of August 1941, where the SD, that is the police, say that they liquidated 29 Communists and 5 secret agents assisted by a platoon of Waffen-SS. They must have caught up with the fighting troops.
A. No, your Honor, in this rear area, in the occupational area, there are the replacement units. They were called field replacement battalions. The with the SS and police basis there were also, I can only make conclusions from these documents.
Q. I see what you mean. The platoon of the Waffen-SS who assisted in the liquidation of those civilians was were taken from the replacement army, the field replacement army, the army of occupation?
A. I cannot say this with certainty, from where they came, your Honor.
Q. You think that is probable though?
A. Yes, that is what is says here, and I don't think there is anything incorrectly at this time.
Q. Oh, no, because this report went right up to the SD, the Police Chief. This went right in to Himmler's office, so it is probably right, don't you think.
A. Yes.
Q. You don't think the field officers of the SD and police would lie to Himmler? They probably told him the truth?
A. Even this I cannot judge, whether this was always the pure truth.
At the time we know too, that when prisoners were reported on this, or that combat action was reported, then so many dead were reported with the enemy. They were usually multiplied by two or three. They would nearly always exaggerate, and it will never by exactly right.
Q. Even to Himmler they exaggerated?
A. I never had to made any reports to Himmler.
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q. Witness, doesn't it seem strange to you that you read about these cruelties here and still didn't know anything about them?
A. This will not seem strange to me alone but to thousands of other soldiers who were at the front, and even to higher ranking officers.
Q. But you maintain that you didn't know anything about it?
A. Yes, in every respect.
Q. And as an explanation for this you give this vacant space?
A. I can't judge this, but I am convinced of the fact that this was not done so publicly in the village as it is described here. Very often, even there many secrecy precautions probably would have been taken.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: No further questions, your Honor.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What was your rank during this campaign?
THE WITNESS: Obersturmbannfuehrer, Lieutenant Colonel.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Lieutenant Colonel?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q Now, you have just given us an interesting description of the advance through Russia. You have described that you had the combat troops, and then behind them was this vacuum, and then behind that something else went on. What happened when the German forces met with a temporary reverse, did this vacuum continue to exist?
A I didn't get the translation; I didn't got the sense of the statement.
Q All right, never mind that. When were you in Smela? Can you consult your battle calendar?
A One moment, I think I can tell you from memory, in the middle of August.
Q Now, yesterday I believe you described-
A 5th up to 8th of August.
Q Now, in Smela yesterday you described that you were cut off by the Russian break-through, is that correct?
A Yes, not cut off by the Russian break-through troop, but we had broken into the Russian front.
THE PRESIDENT: Your switch. We are not getting the English.
A Not by the Russian break-through troop, but we had broken through the Russian front, and thereby a cut-off Russian detachment was developed which then tried to make contact with the north from the south. And one Russian detachment broke through between the supply units and a combat regiment of our division.
Q And then you had to move the supply units back?
AAnd this territory was not secure. Our troops were too weak. Pardon, I must clarify this from the military view so that there won't be any mistake about it. Our troop units were too weak to secure this region for supply units. I personally had to withdraw the battalion by about fifteen to eighteen kilometers in order to make contact in the south with the neighboring combat division.
You will notice that all this took place in the combat territory. My advance route changed insofar as I didn't follow, I couldn't take my own road of advance but the one which was located somewhat further south, the road of the neighboring division. The Russians were north of us.
Q But at any rate you ordered the supply troops of the Viking Division to retreat temporarily?
A That was one occasion and a very well known incident in the Division because by this formation of a pocket two other Army divisions-
Q Now, just answer the question. You then did retreat on this incident from Smela back to Fodorke?
A Yes.
Q All right. When you went back then this vacuum you described was reduced considerably, was it not?
A Pardon me, but this is all fighting territory where we were. I don't know what you mean. The vacant space didn't-began only behind us. We were twenty kilometers from Gorodice. If I am asked from a military viewpoint, I must answer in that direction. I don't want things to be seen otherwise than they are, than they usually happen in military action. North of Gorodice the Russians were also present. As a result I had to go by way of south of Gorodice. There a neighboring division was fighting, and under the protection of this neighboring division I had to bring up the supply units which had been cut off.
Q Then you retreated to Fyodorki after you had gone backwards several kilometers, did you not?
A Yes.
Q Other combat troops -- Excuse me, other combat troops had already been in Fyodorki before you went back there, had they not?
A. Now, you have mentioned a new town.
Q No, Fyodorki.
A We were just in Smela and Gorodice.
A Then you said yesterday that you went back to Fyodorki.
A No, I went back from Smela to Gorodice and from Gorodice again to the east, to Fyodorke.
Q I am just reading from your testimony here. I have it right in front of me, and unless it was mistranslated, here is what you said, "In Smelat we were cut off for want of provisions by the Russian breakthrough, and I told a supply battalion to go back by Gorodice and stop once more somewhere. I forgot what village it was we went to through, Fyodorke."
A Yes, but you are still speaking of withdrawal, and this is withdrawing and advancing again, and you think this is all a withdrawal.
Q all right. Now, where did the withdrawal end?
A That is just the big mistake. Gorodice is located fifteen to eighteen kilometers back of Smela.
Q All right then, that is where you actually stopped, retreated.
THE WITNESS: Pardon no, your Honor. I can't explain this if I an continually interrupted.
THE PRESIDENT: Go ahead.
A Gorodice was a crossroad. I couldn't get through there. I had to go through this crossroad in order to get the southern road, and from the same level, fifteen to eighteen kilometers back, we advanced eighty, eighty kilometers eastward again. That is from Smela I withdrew fifteen kilometers, and to the south I advanced towards the east by eighty kilometers again.
Q (By Mr. Fulkerson) All right. Now then you retreated back to Gorodice. We are agreed on that much?
A Yes.
Q And that was behind Smela; that was west of Smela?
A We were not then in Smela. The Russians had broken through in Smela. We were anyway west of Smela.
Q That is right. Now, when you got back to Gorodice, than was a village or a town that had already been occupied by the German combat troops before, had it not?
A Yes, our own unit case through there, through Gorodice.
Q Now that is fine. Now, your unit had already passed through the village. Now, how long was it before some security measures were taken there after your troops had passed through? They just didn't walk through the village and leave everything alone, did they? Weren't some measures taken to control the civilian population to curb partisan activity in the village as you passed through?
A I told you already that we did not observe any guerrillas fighting at that time. We didn't even know anything about it.
Q So your version is that when you passed through one of these towns that there was no German personnel left there at all? Nothing but Ukrainians and Jews all happily living together?
A There were whole villages and towns where there weren't any German agencies or any German officer.
THE PRESIDENT: Shall we stop off at Scranton for lunch?
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1345 hours.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours, 28 August 1947).
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 28 August 1947) HEINZ FANSLAU - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION (continued)
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please. The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. FULKERSON: Your Honor, please, for the purpose of contradicting the testimony that was just heard here, we would like to put on a witness named Anton Goldstein, whom we just found out about during the noon hour. He was at Tarnopol at the time that these events took place. We won't put him on today, because actually we have only had a chance to talk to him about ten minutes.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you are just giving notice, now?
MR. FULKERSON: Yes, that is right.
DR. STAKELBERG: Dr. von Stakelberg for the defendant Fanslau. Your Honor, at this time I would like to object to this witness, because according to the rules which apply here, that at the Tribunal a witness should not be allowed to be present in the courtroom before he testifies. This witness was amongst the spectators this morning.
MR. FULKERSON: Yes, Your Honor, he was, and during the noon hour he came up to us and identified himself, and said that he had been at Tarnopol when this happened.
THE PRESIDENT: I think the rule only prohibits a witness from being present after he is known to be a witness, after his name has been handed in, and notice given to the fact he is to testify. A man is not a witness until he is called.
DR. STAKELBERG: Your Honor, there is something so far as the rules are concerned which was taken from the German opinion, that a witness can not be present in a courtroom before his story. So far as I know that is not the case in the American Penal Code. In an American Penal Code a witness can be present in the courtroom and after that time they can still appear as a witness. According to the German opinion the code prohibits the presence, which is, in effect, for the reason that because the witness is not to gain a picture from what was going on in the courtroom so that he can shape his testimony in that direction.
This basic thought also applies, whether he has been here as a private person, or as a witness, and then he offers himself as a witness. After that he himself has offered to appear here as a witness on the basis of what he has heard in this courtroom.
MR. FULKERSON: If Your Honor please, such a rule makes no sense in the proceedings here, for we can get the todays transcript at the end of the day, and if it were the simple question of informing the witness of what happened, that could be done by seeing it in black and white what every one had said, and there is no difference between the hearing with his own ears, as this man did this morning.
PRESIDENT: Well, we will ref or to the rules and see what they say, and make a ruling on this later.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q You testified this morning that it took eight days for a courier to travel from the Army Headquarters to the Division Headquarters, is that right?
A Well, you can not put that in a general way. I said that it happened, but you can not say that in general. I merely talked about a courier from Berlin, not from the Army or the Army Corps. After all in the Army and the Corps; we had broadcasting facilities, as the distance was not very great between the corps and the headquarters in the army.
Q Then what I understand you to say this morning was, that it took a courier sometimes eight days to go from the Army Headquarters to the Divisional Headquarters, that was a misunderstanding, I misunderstood you, is that right?
A It was a misunderstanding, because there was rarely a courier in this case. We usually used wireless facilities, and only the combat agencies in the higher levels bad this broadcasting facility.
Q Let's go back to this vacuum that you described. Now throught this vacuum you had to transport all the ammunition, and all the food to the combat troops, is that true?
A That was taken care of by the socalled columns of the Organization Todt, of the transportation conveys, of the Army, or Army Corps. Up to that the combat units and the division had nothing to do with those transports.
Q Now, you testified, I believe, that sometimes the food office, or the supply troops of the Wiking Division were twenty or eighty kilometers behind the combat troops, isn't that true?
A Yes.
Q Now the food I take it, was hauled by trucks over that twenty or eighty kilometers?
A Over eight-hundred kilometers?
A Over the twenty to eighty kilometers?
A Yes. We would obtain the food whenever the food depots existed, be it of the army or the corps. At the food office the supplies were unloaded unto the individual trucks which belonged to the combat units. The combat battalions then we would get from the food office the supplies which were destined for the field kitchen.
Q And it was the job of the supply services to see to it that the food got from the bakery and the place where the meat was being dressed up to the combat regiments?
A Yes, this was done in the same form with all the sort of food as I have just explained just now.
Q And the -
A I beg your pardon, I would like to add something else. This was issued at the food office to the individual trucks which belonged to the combat battalions, and all the units which belonged to the division.
Q And the transportation of food from the bakery and the slaughter house up to the combat troops was your individual responsibility, was it not?