As the company commander, one needs at least three months if one stays with a company each day in order to become acquainted with the 180 or 200 men.
Q Well, you will at least admit, won't you, that if they weren't there they have a fantastically minute recollection of what happened?
A Up till now I have never stated that I was of the opinion that they were not there.
Q Then you wish to say that you emphatically deny their testimony about the rounding up of Jews and shooting of Jews, but you agree that the outfit was at the places, at the times that they said?
A What drew may attention so far, what I don't know anything about, is Bodganowka.
Q But all the other places you recall?
AAs far as I can still recall, yes.
Q Now you said yesterday that the only atrocities you heard about were at Lomberg, Zloczow, and Tarnopol?
A Yes.
Q And these were all atrocities that had been committed by the retreating Russians before you get there?
A Yes.
Q Now yesterday you said that you heard that a mass grave was opened at Zloczow and that it developed that a number of Ukrainians had been previously buried there by the Russians.
A I stated literally that I heard that afterwards.
Lomberg and Tarnopol, on the other hand, I have seen that myself. At Lomberg I only saw it from a distance. At Tarnopol I saw it from somewhat closer.
Q. But you heard about this mass gave at Zloczow?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you hear about it?
A. That must have been either at the time when I was with the baker's company or it must have been two or three days later at Tarnopol, but at that time.
Q. It was sometime either at Zloczow or sometime right after you left there that you heard about this?
A. Yes, I have just said that I heard about it either when I was there to the east of Zloczow or I heard it afterwards at Tarnopol.
Q. Well did you hear that these Jews were being used to open this mass grave there?
A. No.
Q. You only heard that a mass grave was opened and that there were atrocities revealed that had been committed by the Russians?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, witness, I am going to hand you this Document No. 2938 and I want you to open it to page 15 and read the passage that is marked there but first tell the Court what it is. Read the title of it to the Court, please.
A. "The Chief of the Security Police and the SD, file mark 4A1BnRB-41."
Q. Never mind going into all those symbols, but what is the general nature of the report as shown by the title of it?
A "Report about an incident UDSSR-24." Do you want to hear any more?
Q No, that is enough, and it is addressed to the Chief of the Security Police and SD at Berlin.
A To Him? Or does it come from him?
Q All right, his name is on the first page, is it not? And what is the date of that document?
A The 16th of July, 1941.
Q Now when were you at Zloczow?
A It must have been either on the 30th of June or the 1st or 2nd of July.
Q Now turn to page 15 of that document, please, and read the part that is marked in pencil to the Court.
A Very well.
Q Read it slowly please so that the translators won't have too much difficulty.
A "A detachment from the Group Staff on the 7th of July, 1941, began its operation at Zloczow, One Einsatz Kommando 4-B had passed it slightly on its advance. In the agency of the NKWD, apparently a lot of important secret material which had already been sealed and which was ready for shipment had been taken over. The discoveries at Cloczow have shown that the Russians prior to the evacuation of that area, without any special selection, however, amongst them, the entire Ukrainian intelligentsia, altogether arrested 700 Ukrainians and murdered them. As a reprisal for this, by order of the Wehrmacht, the militia has taken several hundred Jews into custody, who were shot. The number of the liquidated Jews amounts to between 3 to 5 hundred."
Q: Thank you very much. Now isn't it rather odd that you heard about what was contained in the first paragraph that you read about the shooting of the 700 Ukrainians but you never heard about the reprisal action that took place here?
A: Well, I don't believe that you have the right idea about what happened. I was located with a combat division; however, I want to point out that I am referring to a combat division here, a division actually engaged in combat and we constantly were moving up behind the enemy. On one occasion we would be behind the lines for 24 hours and then as a result of a break through by the Russians we again were thrown into combat.
Q But you don't think that-
A May I also point out that this shows quite clearly that these Russian murders have actually occurred? Furthermore, it becomes clearly evident from this document that only on the 7th of July this detachment with which we are concerned here came to Zloozow.
Q Well now, doesn't the document refer to the fact that another Einsatzkommando had already been in Zloozow before this happened?
A I was unable to see that this was a real Einsatzkommando here.
MR. FULKERSON: Dr. Stakelberg, in the first paragraph of that, does it not say that an Einsatzkommando 4-B had already been through the town?
DR. STAKELBERG: "Which was already slightly passed by the Einsatzkommando 4-B when it was passing through the town."
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q Now you say you may have heard about this mass grave incident several days after you left Zloozow. You might have heard about it at Tarnopol?
A. Yes.
Q Now you left Zloozow around the 2nd of July?
A It must have been on the first or second of July.
Q And this shooting of 3 to 5 hundred Jews took place in Zloozow on the 7th of July?
A Whether it took place on the 7th of July, I don't know.
MR. FULKERSON: Dr. Stakelberg, doesn't the document say that the shootings took place on the 7th of July?
DR. STAKELBERG: It says, "A detachment of the Group Staff on the 7th of July, 1941, began its operation at Zloozow.
MR. FULKERSON: That is all, thank you very much.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q In other words, the incident described in that document took place five days after you left Zloozow and then on the 7th of July where were you?
Were you still in Tarnopol?
A On the 7th of July, combat operations took place between Tarnopol and Roskilow; at that time I must have been between Tarnopol and Roskilow, or I must have been south of that sector because we were protecting the 9th Army Division towards the North.
Q But at the time that you heard about this mass grave at Zloozow, it was never mentioned to you that any reprisals had been taken against Jews?
A No. Not on our part and they were not ordered by us either. I don't believe, either, that a combat unit which was directly engaged in combat ever has enough time to occupy itself with any SD measures.
Q Well now, when you were in Zloozow, did you see any signs of mistreatment of Jews by the Army or the SS or the SD?
A No, however I would like to emphasize that I only passed through Zloozow. I did not stop there at all. On the following day, I came from the front and I did not even pass through the locality of Zloozow.
Q Didn't you testify yesterday, as a matter of fact, that you never heard of the SD the whole time you were in Russia?
A Yes, I testified that.
Q Now, let's move up to Tarnopol. You say that you never actually went to the slaughter house there yourself?
A Yes.
Q You never did?
A I cannot recall ever having entered a slaughter house in Russia.
Q So you are not in a very good position actually to contradict what the witness Sauer and Otto says about what happened there, are you?
A I can't judge it because I wasn't there and I didn't see anything and I didn't hear anything about it.
Q Well, do you think that Sauer as a noncommissioned officer should have been able to recognize one of the outfit's trucks when he saw it?
A To recognize a truck? Yes, of course. Everybody can recognize a truck.
Q Could he recognize that it was a truck which belonged to his outfit?
A Of course, we had our divisional insignia and the tactical insignia had been painted on every vehicle.
Q And he could also recognize the personnel of his own company, could he not?
A I must assume that.
Q Now you recall his testimony on re-direct examination to the effect that he was Jews working in the slaughter house at Tarnopol? Don't you?
A Yes, that is what he said.
Q And that they were hauled there under guard in trucks of the butcher's company by men of the butcher's company?
A Yes, that is just what he said also.
Q And your explanation is that he invented this story out of whole cloth?
A I am quite convinced of that.
Q You say you never heard of any excesses against Jews at Tarnopol?
A No.
Q When were you at Tarnopol?
A That must also have been on the 2nd or 3rd or 4th of July.
Q I am going to hand you Document No. 2652. Please read its title to the Court and its date.
A "Activity and situation report No. 2 of the Einsatzgruppe of the Security Police and the SD in the USSR."
Q All right. Now will you please-- What is the date of that, please? I am sorry.
A The time of report from the 29th of July up to the 14th of August, 1941.
Q Now will you please turn to page 9 of that document?
A Yes.
Q And will you please read slowly to the court the passage marked No. 1?
A "Pogroms against the Jews could only he brought up at several places. In this way, for example, at Tarnopol, 600 and at Schoroskow 110 Jews were killed by the population.
Q That is all right. That is the second passage. You will got to that in a moment. Now this was about 2 or 3 weeks after you left, according to your testimony, wasn't it?
A There is no date stated here.
Q The date is given on the front of the document itself from the 29th of July to the 14th of August?
A Yes.
Q You never heard of any excesses against the Jews at Tarnopol?
A No.
Q Although you had your own car and were travelling around between the divisional staff and the army corps staff and the supply services of the division?
A Well, 200 or 300 -- I actually could not go 200 or 300 kilometers beyond the front lines. I did not have the time. I believe that you have a false idea about the Russian territory there, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q Well if I do, I wen't be the only lawyer in this Courtroom who has been accused of that. And you say that the whole time that you were in Russia, you never heard of any Einsatzgruppes or Einsatzkommando?
A. Yes, I never heard anything about it.
Q And you never heard of any connection, of course, between the Waffen-SS and the Einsatzgruppe and Einsatzkommando?
A I only heard about it after the war.
Q Well, you recall that the witness Otto testified about such a connection. He said that there was not a close liaison between the Waffen-SS and the Einsatzkommando, but that from time to time squads of the Waffen-SS were lent for the time being to the Einsatzkommando.
Do you recall that he said that?
A I can recall that the witness Otto did make such a statement. However, I can also recall that afterwards the witness Sauer answered that question in the negative, although both of them were in the same butcher's company.
Q. Well, then, in other words, you are just trying to tell the Court that this statement of Otto's was another hallucination on his part?
A. I can not say what Otto saw when he was hanging around behind the front lines. I really can't say anything about that. I can't say what he saw when he was not with the unit anymore.
Q. Are you trying to tell us that a simple SS man, a truck driver, was better informed about what was happening in Russia than you were?
A. You see, if he accidentally happened to be 300 kilometers behind the front line in that particular area of course. And if he stated by false statements and through lies, as Otto himself has -he was able to make friends everywhere --
Q. But you would classify this statement of his about the connection between the Waffen-SS and the Einsatzkommando as just another one of his prevarications?
A. I cannot say what Otto saw when he was not with the unit. I can only say what I saw and just what happened when I was with the unit.
Q. I am going to hand you Document 2846. Please read its title and date to the Court.
A. "Incident Report, USSR, No. 58. Berlin, 20 August 1941. The Chief of the Security Police and the SD."
Q. Now, will you please turn to Page 7 of the original and read the passages that are marked there?
A. Oh, yes; it is marked very slightly here. "Now, according to plan, almost all villages and larger localities in the large vicinity of Berdishev and Shilouiv have been taken."
Q. Continue. Continue to read on that page. There is another passage, I believe.
A. Oh, perhaps, it is further on, that is on the next page.
"By using a platoon of Waffen-SS at Brussilov, 29 Communists and five agents of the NKWD were located, and liquidated on the very spot."
Q. Now continue. There is another passage marked on that same page.
A. "Furthermore, an inhabitant could be located who had deported racial German and Ukrainian families. Finally, Jews were also taken into custody who openly had taken a hostile attitude toward the German army and who had refused to work with the Organization Todt, and so on. In the course of this action, altogether 113 people were shot."
May I make a statement on that subject?
Q. Yes, Surely.
A. I have heard and read of Brussilov here for the first time.
Q. But you actually were in Shitomir, I believe?
A. Yes.
Q. And you never heard that any Jews were being mistreated there?
A. No.
Q. And this story that the witness Sauer tells about seeing this man Surth shoot six Jews there is another aberration?
A. In my opinion; yes, because, strangely enough, Sauer emphasized that was known in all units and by all men, but of this story Otto did not know anything beforehand. And the story of which Otto had knowledge, Sauer did not know anything, and both of them, I believe, were with the same unit, which had the smallest number of men.
Q. Well, you say you are laboring under a disadvantage because you haven't got the transcript. If you read the transcript, I believe you will find that both Otto and Sauer remember this story about Surth.
A. Such a mistake can happen. It is quite possible because I have not read the transcript yet, and, of course, it is impossible for me to remember everything quite clearly.
Q. But this is, in your opinion, strictly a fabrication -this story about Surth killing the Jews?
A. Yes. After all, something of that sort could not be kept secret. With that I agree.
Q. And you still want to tell this Court that the whole time you were in Russia, you did not know there were any SD there?
A. I am not trying to tell that to the Tribunal, but I want only to tell about facts here.
Q. Well, then you state it as a fact that you never heard of the SD while you were in Russia?
A. Yes, that is my claim.
Q. Now, I believe you testified while you were on the stand before that you never heard of the persecution of the Jews until this trial began.
A. Of the persecution of the Jews? Well, I knew whatever was public knowledge. That I also heard, and that is what I said. About the exaggerated racial policy, I talked myself quite openly. I believe that I also said that I talked about this racial policy to Jews who were my acquaintances and also to some half-Jews.
Q. But you never heard about any Jews being shot? You never heard of any extermination program?
A. No, I did not hear anything about an extermination program. Otherwise, I would have been much much afraid for my own brotherin-law. I did not consider that possible at all.
Q. You never heard of any brutalities being committed against Jess?
A. No.
Q. Well, now....
A. That somebody may have beaven a Jew or that on the 9th of November excesses and brutalities occurred, that I heard also.
That was common knowledge.
Q. Well, where did you hear about these things for the first time?
A. I can not recall that anymore, now that nine years have passed. However, I heard about that in general. I also heard about the fact that persons who committed such violations were subjected to trials and that a number of them were indicted before a court. However, today I am unable to give any details to you.
Q. Did you hear about that sort of thing happening before you went to Russia in 1941?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, did you hear about it after you got to Russia?
A. Well, I knew these things already at that time. After all, this happened in 1938.
Q. Well, did you hear about any mishandling or mistreatment of Jews while you were in Russia?
A. No. That, of course, a local garrison , or a field garrison, would use Jews in order to clear roads and to clear the debris, or that by agreement with the city mayor or any other official of the village, would use working detachments and that amongst these working detachments there were Jews -- that probably was quite a normal procedure. That happens in every war. The same thing applied in the campaign in the West. A local headquarters would be established, and some sort of military government, and this military government detachment would establish contact with the local enemy authorities in the same locality. However, I emphasize that here we were dealing with local commanders and army headquarters which had been normally appointed. They had been established by the corps, by the army.
Q. Well, you would really have been shocked if you had heard that Jews were being shot or mistreated?
A. Yes, it would have shocked me. My opinion about the atrocities which I have seen and my attitude toward them -- I hope that I will be able to bring testimony of the civilians to whom I reported about that in 1942. I want to emphasize that those were Russian atrocities, and I said at the time that it was impossible from a humane point of view that people like that could exist in Germany. If I wished today if we still have many communists, that they could have a look at these atrocities. Then I think they, if they were to look at these animal atrocities, then, of course, I think that this would cure them of any ideas about their Russian paradise. I am repeating the words here according to the sense as I told them to civilians in 1942.
Q. Well, now, if anybody had told you that Einsatzkommando 6 had killed 6,000 Jews in Dnjepopetrowsk alone, that would really have been a startling revelation to you?
A. I would have considered that 100 percent enemy propaganda.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Mr. Fulkerson, you were not in Court at the time, but on June 11 and June 12, this defendant testified at length about knowing nothing of extermination of Jews, knowing nothing of the racial persecution of the Jews, so, if he has already denied this, it seems to me to go into it again ---
MR. FULKERSON: All right, then; I have no further questions.
THE WITNESS: May it please the Tribunal, may I make another statement on this subject?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: This racial persecution and this racial policy I also discussed at the time, and I also repeated that discussion, only I did not state myself to be in favor of these things.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Let me ask him a question, Doctor.
EXAMINATION BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
A. At any time during the campaign, and especially near Zloczow, were any members of the First Mountain Division there?
A. I can recall that I saw members of the Mountain Division for the first time at Tarnopol. I did not see them before. I may have seen one, tow, three or four of them. However, I can not recall these precisely. However, I was as a unit able to recognize the Mountain Division for the first time at Tarnopol.
Q. When was that? About when did you recognize the members of the Mountain Division at Tarnopol?
A. When I passed through Tarnopol, and when we were fighting between Tarnopol and Boskirow. Then I saw the First Mountain unit at Tarnopol. In the combat sector in which we were engaged, I did not see any members of the Mountain Division. I saw them again only after we passed Shitomir.
Q. Please try to answer my question. You haven't answered it yet. I asked you when it was. About what date was it?
A. I beg your pardon, Your Honor. That must have been between the 2nd and 5th of July.
Q. Did you know Oberscharfuehrer Sell--S-E-L-L?
A. Oberscharfuehrer Sell? Yes, he was a technical noncommissioned officer, a technician who had been assigned to us.
Q. And what company was he assigned to?
A. He was with the food column.
Q. You did not know Otto?
A. I can not recall Otto at all.
Q. You did not know Sauer?
A. I can not remember him either.
Q. Did you know of Oberscharfuehrer Senn--S-E-N-N?
A. I just stated that I knew him. That is how the translation came through--Senn-S-E-N-N.
Q. I first asked about S-E-L-L.
A. I don't know any man by the name of SELL.
Q. You don't, Did you know Rottenfuehrer Schmidt?
A. No. However, I know a man by the name of Schmidtbauer.
Q. You did know a Standartenfuehrer Weckerle?
A. I know a man by the name of Weckerle.
Q. And you described how he was killed, on yesterday.
A. yes.
Q. Did you know a town and were you in a town during this campaign of Bodganowska, B O D G A N O W S K A?
A. I can not recall any city by that name. I would also like to say in this connection, Your Honor, that this Bodganowska is alleged to be located between Tarnopol and Zloczow, according to the testimony of the witness. However, I can not recall any city at all between Zloczow and Tarnopol, and during that period of time and in that area, I myself was not with the food column anymore, but I met up with them again at Tarnopol.
Q. It was described as the next town to Tarnopol on your may to Tarnopol, not a city, but a town.
A. I can't recall it at all. Up to now I have not been able to consult any maps. Your Honor.
Q. Did you know Hauptsturmfuehrer Meister?
A. Yes.
Q. What company was he in?
A. He was with the food column. He was with the First Company.
Q. Did you know Haupsturmfuehrer Schinkol?
A. Yes.
A. What company was he in?
A. He was also a member of the First Company in the food column.
Q. And these two men were with those outfits during the campaign that you have described here around Tarnopol and those other towns in July 1941?
A. Yes, at that period of time. In this connection, I would like to make the following statement: Haupsturmfuehrer Meister, who has been mentioned here, from one kilometer before Tarnopol at the base there, if I am not mistaken, he was sent back to his homeland by plane because he became very ill, and he died here at Nurnberg.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That is all.
THE PRESIDENT: Well take the recess now.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. WOLFE: If it please the Tribunal, I would like to put a few more questions to the witness.
BY MR. WOLFE:
Q Witness, you saw some documents this morning, and you read some out aloud in which it is described and proved that atrocities in the Bast and murders occurred, is that correct?
A Yes.
A Who, in your opinion, must have known about those atrocities?
A Those who have ordered then and executed then.
Q Do you mean thereby the SD and the Security Police?
AAs it appears from those paragraphs which I have read, yes.
Q And isn't it also true that the commanders of the rear army must have known about it?
A I don't know because I was never active in the rear Army territory.
Q Witness, did you know Obergruppenfuehrer and Police General von dem Barzilowski?
A Yes.
Q Would you please tell the Court who General von dem Barzilowski
A He was chief of the combatting bands.
Q Where?
THE PRESIDENT: Chief of what?
THE INTERPRETER: Chief of fighting, in charge of fighting guerrillas.
THE PRESIDENT: Which officer?
MR WOLFE: He was an SS-General
THE PRESIDENT: Polish guerrillas?
Q (By Mr. Wolfe) Were they Polish guerrillas or Russian guerillas?
A I don't know. I just know he was chief in charge of fighting guerrillas.
Q In what area?
A Wherever he was assigned, I don't know, at least in the eastern campaign, but I don't know whether he was also in the southeast. That I don't know.
Q Well, that doesn't matter here. At any rate he was also in the East?
A Yes.
Q In case General Barzilowski would be called up as a witness here and would describe to the Court that all these atrocities were well known, not only among the SS but also among the Wehrmacht in the East, what would you say to that?
A I don't know how he could judge that. He was chief of antipartisan warfare and he was in that region, but I was not there. Therefore I cannot say. I never was in the rear army areas.
Q If I were to tell you that General Barzilowski told me on the 22nd of August, 1947, that though no direct order from the highest command existed, after the Jews had been outlawed but that every member of the SS or Wehrmacht knew that-it was approved that Jews were executed and killed, employed in labor, and that such cases if they happened, as far as he recalls, were never tried by a court martial, that on the contrary, if it was tried to be in proceedings this was suppressed by the highest authority.
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute.
MR. WOLFE: Your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: You haven't finished your question. You said to him, "If I were to tell you that General Barzilowski told me those things." Then what?
MR. WOLFE: Excuse me. I thought Dr. Von Stakelberg was interrupting here.
THE PRESIDENT: He was, but finish your question.
(By Mr. Wolfe) Would you say that this is correct?
THE PRESIDENT: Now.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Your Honor, I would like to object to this question. The question already contains claims from a third party. If such claims are made, I would like to question that person who has made it in cross-examination.