Q. You mean to say that no buildings could be seen there?
A. Nothing that drew my particular attention. Nothing was so outstanding that it impressed itself on my memory.
Q. Was the square where Tschentscher was standing located at a bridge?
A. No. I can't recall having seen a bridge there. It wasn't there, because it was road which was covered with mud to some extent. There was a lot of mud there and, as far as I can recall, a wrecker was trying to get the trucks back on the road which had become stuck in the mud. The soil consisted to a very large extent of clay there. That was the area where the Bakers Company was located.
Q. If you can recall the description of Otto correctly, he had stated that the Bakers Company had bivouaced in the gravel pit near Zcloozow, which was located to the east of the citadel--
A. I have already said that it was the east of the city of Zcloozow. However, whether that was 500 metres if 1 or 2 kilometres, that I don't know any more to-day. However, when I drove back from the division I did to touch that city any more.
Q. And you said that the food office was standing on an open road which however was covered with mud?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there a bridge or swamp?
A. I can't recall that; there was a soil of clay as we esperieuced so continously in the Ukraine. It was very sticky and it was heavy soil.
Q. And at this time the food office also was on the same level with the Bakers Company, it that what you just said?
A. Yes, I met Tschentscher directly near the baking stoves which were operating.
Q. Then, according to Otto's description, it could not have been near the bridge?
A. I can not recall any bridge there.
Q. How long did you stay there?
A. I stayed there for ten or fifteen minutes, and then I myself drove up ahead of the column with my vehicle.
Q. Then I can state that on one occasion you passed through Zloczow, but, as you said, you passed through there before your supply column did?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you pass through Zloczow directly?
A. I would like to emphasize that I passed through Zloczow on the day before the supply battalion did. I stayed overnight on a bivouac of my division and the army corps, and only on the following morning did I return.
Q. You can recall exactly that after you passed through Zloczow you stayed in the bivouac of the corps?
A. It was a divisional staff and the quartermaster of the army corps, yes.
Q. You stayed there overnight, and then you drove back, and at that time the food office and the baker unit were at the same location and the food office was in an open, muddy road, is that correct?
A. Not quite; I must correct you. The bakers' company was operating. It was stationed there. The food office had just arrived there.
Q. That is what I said. The bakers' company was in its bivouac, and the supply column was on the road at the same location. Can you recall that it rained?
A. Yes, and the soil was very wet.
Q. Do you know anything about the atrocities which Otto has described as having happened at Zloczow and in which he alleged that you took an active part?
A. Of the atrocities at Zloczow I know only a description which was given to me afterwards when I heard about a mass grave where the civilian population -- that is to say, the members concerned -- were about to identify the corpses. It was alleged that these deeds had been committed by the Russians before they evacuated that area.
I myself have witnessed only atrocities at Lemberg and Tarnopol.
Q. Did you witness atrocities?
A. I only saw the corpses.
Q. What I mean to say is, if you talk about atrocities at Lemburg, what did you see there? Did you see corpses there, and whose corpses were they?
A. When I passes through Lemberg, there was a very broad road. It was a big building there, and on this road there was a very sickly smell of decay. A large number of civilians were crowded around in front of this building. This was a prison. I myself drove to the side of the road, and I stopped there for approximately three to five minutes. I stood up in the car, and I only looked into the gateway of the prison where there was a lot of activity and where I could see only a gateway from a distance of 30 to 40 meters, how corpses were being carried back and forth. I could see only a short part of that gateway.
Q. I asked you who had committed these murders?
A. I'll come to speak on that in a minute. The military police of the army had blocked the gateway, and I spoke to some members of the military police who came near to my car, and I asked them what was going on. They told me that these were Nationalist Poles and Ukrainians who had been shot by the Russians in the prison before the Russians evacuated this area. At the moment I left in my car, a militia detach ment was carrying picks and shovels, and they marched straight into the prison yard.
However, I would like to state that the reporter from the supply battalion who took photographs, either before the time or afterwards must have been there, and had made several films. I myself have seen the film afterwards.
Q. My actual question was sidetracked a little bit. Otto described certain atrocities which are alleged to have happened at Zloczow, and he alleged that you took part in them. Did you participate in such atrocities?
A. No.
Q. Do you ever hear that such atrocities were committed?
A. No.
Q. Does Otto's claim that you were at the head of the supply column on the bridge apply at all?
A. No.
Q. Then the next locality which was mentioned by Otto was Bogdanowka, it was called Beraslowka in the English translation. I don't know whether that is the same locality. It is alleged that there you were observing Oberscharfuehrer Senn how he took three Jews away for execution, and you are alleged to have told a crying boy who was accompanying his father that he was to be quiet or, you are alleged to have threatened him, he himself would be shot if he was not quiet.
A. It is incomprehensible to me how a human being with a normal mentality can invent such fantasy.
Q. Is it true or is it not true that at Bogdanowka you witnessed such a scene?
A. Neither at Bogdanowka nor at any other place or any other time in Russia or in the compaign in the West. In this connection I would like to say that I only again met the supply battalion one kilometer before Tarnopole, after I had left it at Zloczow.
Q. Consequently, you, in the village of Bogdanowka, were not together with your supply column, as Bogdanowka is said to be between Zloczow and Tarnopol?
A. I can't recall this village of Bogdanowka at all.
Q. You say that after you left your supply battalion at Zloczow you only saw it again, as you said -
A. One kilometer before Tarnopol. The head of the supply column arrived at the cross-roads, at the very moment when the road and the border of the city of Tarnopol were being bombed. That is why I can recall that incident clearly, and I was accompanied by my first co-worker. The head of the supply battalion started to bivouac there, approximately one kilometer before Tarnopole. It was 300 to 500 meters south of the road on which the column was advancing.
Q. And you say with certainty that you did not see either Senn nor any other member of your supply battalion when they were taking or driving Jews for an execution?
A. Yes, I know that with absolute certainty.
Q. You have never seen that?
A. No.
Q. Consequently, the scene which has been described here by Otto is false?
A. Yes, it is untrue. It is completely invented.
Q. I believe that at Bogdanowka the defendant Tschentscher is alleged to have read an order in which, allegedly by order of the divisional administrative officer, it was announced that Standartenfuehrer Weckerle had been shot by Jews and that for this reason, nobody could be punished if he would kill a jew. Did you ever issue such an order?
A. In this connection I would like to state the following: I have never issued such an order, and I never could issue such an order.
If, in reality, I had been inclined in this direction and if I had issued such an order -- to which, however, I was not entitled, as far as the military service was concerned -- I probably would have been dismissed immediately by my divisional commander, who, as an old officer, was known to be an especially correct. I would have been dismissed from my position, and I would have been placed before a military court-martial. At the very least, I would have been immediately relieved of my position.
Furthermore, I have heard here for the first time from the witness Otto that the regimental commander, Weckerle, had been shot by a Jew. We never heard that story at all in the division.
Q. What was said at the time about the death of Weckerle?
A. Weckerle went from his combat commend post to the head, and two men reported to him that, out on the open road, that they had been shot at. He then continued to advance on the road and he saw that, in a corn field, a German steel helmet was moving. He assumed that this was a German soldier who had been wounded. He stopped with his vehicle and the officer who was accompanying him, his driver, and he himself got out of the car and at the very moment somebody started firing at them. At that time, the regimental commander Weckerle was killed by a bullet in his head. Therefore, this was an incident in a combat area and this was not a murder which could be determined in any way.
Q. And where did you receive this version of the incident?
A. In the division, there was no other version at all.
Q. Is this the official information to the troop unit or was the official notification of death?
A. I don't know what the individual description was, but I can only remember this version.
Q. Where did you get this information?
A. Well, I heard it from the divisional staff.
Q. Therefore, this statement by Otto also is completely invented and false?
A. Yes.
Q. Otto has further stated, and Sauer has confirmed this, that at Tarnopol Jews were employed by the butcher's company and that they were maltreated there. Was this fact known to you?
A. No, it is completely unknown to me.
Q. Where was the butcher's company located?
A. The butcher's company could not be billeted in the slaughter house because the slaughter house was administrated by the army and the local headquarters. Two or three supply battalions were billeted there in and around Tarnopol belonging to various divisions. I can recall precisely that we had to furnish slaughterers to the slaughter house and that from the slaughter house we then received meat so that we could distribute and divide it up.
Q. And to whom was the slaughter house subordinated at the time? Who was in charge of it? What unit?
A. This was done by order of the army. The commander of the army slaughtering service was incharge.
Q. But it was not the butcher's company of the Division Wiking?
A. No.
Q. Do you know whether Jews were employed there?
A. I don't know anything about it because I myself never entered the slaughter house. However, I would like to state in this connection that this was the only slaughter house of which I have heard in Russia. Otherwise, we did not even enter any big city.
Q. At Tarnopol, the witness Otto has alleged that he heard of an order there according to which Jews were to be assembled for work, and if there were no longer used Jews for work any more, they were to be sent to ghettos. Did you ever know of such an order?
A. I have never seen such an order or a similar order and I have never heard anything about it. It is completely out of the question because I have never seen any civilian working detachment that worked with my units, aside from Jewish working detachments, I did not see any civilians working in my units at all.
Q. What do you mean "aside from Jewish workers"?
A. Well, he emphasized that particularly. He stressed that particularly. I say, neither Jewish workers nor any other civilian workers.
Q. You say, neither Jews nor any other civilian workers?
A. Yes.
Q. The next locality which Otto mentioned is Shitomir, and Otto and Sauer have stated that there Oberscharfuehrer Surth of the baker's company had shot six Jews.
This incident was supposed to have been general knowledge. Did you hear anything about this incident, officially or unofficially?
A. No, never.
Q. Have you yourself been in Shitomir?
A. Yes.
Q. Was the supply column - the butcher's company and the baker's company - billeted together in one troop barracks?
A. No.
Q. Do you recall that Sauer stated that here? Is his testimony false?
A. I can say that it is false with one hundred per cent certainty.
Q. Why? What was the situation and please describe it to us?
A. The food office was billeted approximately one to one and a half kilometers in the south-west direction before Shitomir. There I received a visit from the corps administrative officer, and furthermore, the corps physician was also there. When we were there in the yard of a seed growing estate, there was an air attack on Shitomir. After approximately one hour and an hour and a half had passed, a runner of the baker's company came from the town and he reported to us that the baker's company had suffered several casualties as a result of this air attack. I can recall this incident quite clearly because I, at that time, was with the food office and the chief of the food office, the co-defendant Tschentscher, was in bed because he was incapable of doing duty. He had the so-called "Russian disease." This was a disease which resembled dysentery. He was treated by Dr. Gerhardt. He was transported as a bed patient to the next base, to Skwira. There only he again became capable of doing duty and at Skwira I left the food office and went up ahead to the division.
Q. Witness, the witness Otto has stated here that he had seen Hauptsturmfuehrer Braunagl at Zloczow and that he also participated in the alleged atrocities. The witness Sauer has testified that he has seen Haupsturmfuehrer Braunagl at Shitomir during the incident which has just been described.
A. Both of these statements are untrue.
Q. What happened to Braunagl?
A. Braunagl was the chief of the baker's company. As a result of a motorcycle accident, he left the company before the supply battalion left the area to the west of Lublin. That was before the supply column even got moving. He was taken to a hospital in that locality and he only returned during the late days of August at the very earliest, and I believe actually that is only was in the middle of September, to Wlosewatka, and, at the same time, he went back to the battalion. That was the last locality which I passed through while I was still together with my division.
Q. Therefore, you can say with certainty that Braunagl was neither at Zloczow or Shitomir?
A. Yes. Furthermore, the story which Otto gave us drew my attention when it was put to him whether he could say with certainty that Braunagl also had been present, even if other said something to the contrary, here he told the story about Samotsch. He stated that he knew with certainty because he had seen Hauptsturmfuehrer Braunagle when he was limping along on a cane at Samotsch and that he talked to him at that time. Braunagl told Otto that he had loaded the wrong coals on his truck. In this connection I would like to make the following statement. Samotsch is located approximately one hundred kilometers behind the locality of the field hospital. The supply battalion only arrived several days after Braunagl had incurred his accident, and passed through Samotsch. Furthermore, the baker's company did not use any coal whatsoever for the baking ovens and it could only use wood.
So he was not quite successful when he invented this particularly story if he told the story here about having loaded coal. Furthermore, Braunagle was not his company commander, what Braunagl had to do with the driver Otto, since Otto did not even belong to the baker's company, I cannot understand at all.
Q. Otto then described the next incident at Biala-Zerkow where the defendant Tschentscher is alleged to have shot at a Jew. Did you ever hear of any such incident, officially or unofficially?
A. No, I never heard anything about it.
Q. If you had obtained knowledge, would you have objected to all the atrocities which have been mentioned here - Senn, Surth, Braunagl and Tschentscher? Would you have taken any action there?
A. Yes, naturally, I would have taken immediate steps with the Army courts-martial.
Q. You would have asked for an army courts-martial procedure?
A. Yes. after all, if I had not done that then I myself would have been placed before a military courts-martial by my divisional commander and I certainly would not have exposed myself to that danger. Any act which could be considered to constitute a murder, a war crime, or any other atrocity, I would never have tried to cover any such acts.
Q. Did you have any connection with the Einsatzgruppen of the SD?
A. I neither heard anything about the Einsatzgruppen nor did I see anything.
Q. Did you know anything about there existence?
A. No, I knew nothing about this existence at all. We never say any SD men in our combat sector.
Q. As the last locality, the witness Otto mentioned Fodorke. Do you know that locality and do you know anything about the billets there?
A. Yes, I know the locality. However, I cannot recall any billeting conditions any more because I have been there only a very short time and during that time I left for the Reich.
THE PRESIDENT: Where did you go after you were detached from the battalion the last of September?
THE WITNESS: I went to Berlin.
THE PRESIDENT: And was that the last field duty that you saw?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: You were not at the front after that?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE PRESIDENT: We'll recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
(A recess was taken until 0930 hours, 28 August 1947)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al., defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 28 August 1947, 0930-1630. Justice Robert M Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 2.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
DR. STAKELBERG: Dr. von Stakelberg for the defendant Fanslau. Your Honor, with the permission of the Tribunal I shall continue my examination of the witness Fanslau.
BY DR STAKELBERG:
Q Witness, yesterday, we had already mentioned all the localities and all the incidents, and we discussed them here, which were the subject of the testimonies of Otto and Sauer. I want to ask you some additional questions with regard to the incident at Zloozow. Can you recall the marching order which the witness Otto had stated?
A Yes
Q Can you give us any information about that marching order?
A Yes, I can tell you the general marching order.
Q And what was the general marching order in your unit?
AAt the head of the column there were one or two motorcyclists; then came Tachentscher's car; then came the car of Schaefer, and Schaefer was the deputy of Tschentscher; than came the vehicles of the physician of the field treasury; and then for the most part there were one or two more passenger cars of other officers. The sequence of the last four vehicles which I have mentioned may have interchanged from time to time. However, as I said before, they were at the head of the column. Then came a small truck, which carried the twin machine gun. This was done in order to protect the column from air attacks; then several other trucks followed.
Q Do you therefore consider the sequence which Otto had stated here, and in all his description of the position with the heavy trucks, do you consider that it was possible?
A. No. That probably would have been the only time this happened, as Otto has told us about it.
Q And therefore you do not consider it possible?
A No, I consider it to be out of the question.
Q And the witness Otto has further stated the vehicles had stopped very close to each other, right behind each other. Does this sound creditable?
A No, that is out of the question. The drivers would not have dared to do anything of the sort. Whenever the column stopped, immediately cars would patrol the column and see to it that the certain distance was kept between the vehicles in the case of an air attack. This in particular was the order which was repeatedly read to all drivers, and all officers had to see to it that this distance between vehicles were kept. An interval of twenty meters between each vehicle was prescribed, in order to prevent in case of bombs being dropped, any unnecessary loss of men and material.
Q Now, witness, I have another question to ask you. You told us yesterday that you had been the Divisional Administrative Officer, and at the same time you had been the battalion commander of the Supply Battalion?
A Yes.
Q The witnesses Otto and Sauer had testified that Tschentscher had been the commanding officer of the Supply Battalion. What position did Tschentscher occupy?
A Tschentscher was the chief of the first company. He was the commanding officer of the food. He was the company commander with a senior rank. In that capacity he had been appointed by me to be my deputy.
Since it was my task to take care of the supply and administrative tasks for all regiments and the battalions of the Division.
Q Did Tschentscher's deputizing only refer to the supervision, or did he also have the authority to impose disciplinary punishment and to carry out such on men of the other companies?
A This only referred to general supervision with regard to marches, the reports, that is he had to transmit my orders from above, and these were routed through the first company, through Tschentscher; and, also reports came to me through that channel. He did not have the authority for promotions to anybody. He did not have any disciplinary authority either, with regard to the other companies.
Q Since, as you say, you spent most of your time with the Divisional Staff just how did you maintain contact with the Supply Battalion?
A The transmission of orders in the Supply Battalion took place in exactly the same way as it was in the case of all the other battalions, mostly by messengers on motorcycles. It sometimes happened saw either my ordinance officer, or if I went back myself I personally would transmit the orders to the Divisional Staff personally, and, also my orders with regard to the supply matters.
Q You recall that the witness Otto had testified here that the defendant Tschentscher had given lectures on the Jewish question, when he was giving the training courses at Dachau. Do you know anything about that?
A No, there were lectures by the Division, or by the OKH, or the High Command of the Army for combat units. However, the lectures did not deal with political problems of that kind, but the subject of these lectures dealt with the attitude in enemy territory, counter-intelligent matters, and, then extracts would be read from courtmartial proceedings, offenses against wartime laws, and the consequences of these violations, as a warning for the troops.
Q Witness, the Prosecution has charged you with the fact that during your first examination you had not stated the truth insofar as the question of extermination of Jews were concerned, and of your participation in the atrocities.
Do you still maintain the testimony which you made the first time?
A Yes, I maintain it now as before.
DR STAKELBERG: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Any cross examination by defense counsel. If not, the Prosecution may cross examine, if it wishes.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. Witness, I believe you testified that you spent most of your time around the Divisional Staff Headquarters?
A. For the most part during our advance I worked or spent most of my time, also when there was a stop in the Divisional Staff, that is with either I-A, the combat command post, or with the Quartermaster General.
Q. And while you were on the stand you testified that Tschentscher was the senior officer in the supply services?
A. After me he was the officer with a senior rank.
Q. So when that you say that you were actually the commanding officer of the supply services, a good deal of the time you were senior officer in absentia?
A. I do not understand the question quite clearly.
Q. In other words, a good deal of the time you were not there with the supply services, that is true, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you were not there the senior officer present was Tschentscher?
A. In the supply battalion it was Tschentscher, and up ahead with the Divisional Staff my first co-worker would deputize for me.
Q. Now I believe you also testified yesterday that one of your duties was to act as liaison officer between the Divisional Staff and the Army Corps, is that correct?
A. Yes, however but, I would like to point out that I was only doing that in administrative matters to my superior army officer of the Army Corps, or, in special cases whenever for a temporary time we were not subordinate to any corps, then directly to the Army Commanding Officer.
Q. Now in carrying out this liaison duty, did you frequently go to the Army Corps Headquarters, the Army Corps Staff?
A. I may have gone to Army Headquarters on one or two occasions.
Q. But you did communicate fairly frequently between Divisional Staff Headquarters and the supply services?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. I assume that you had your own car to make these trips in?
A. Yes.
Q. So that you were moving around pretty frequently, and had an opportunity to know what was going on, did you not?
A. Well, I don't know what happened there and in what respect.
Q. I mean, you had an opportunity to observe what was happening in the Ukraine generally. You had as good an opportunity as most people?
A. I did, of course.
Q. Now, in your testimony yesterday you had as an aid to your memory, first, the battle calendar of the Viking Division, which was torn out of this certain book upstairs in the library; you had that as an aid to your memory, did you not?
A. Just where this calendar originated from, I don't know. I copied it.
Q. I am not interested in that, but you had it before you to refresh your memory as to the dates and places?
A. Yes.
Q. On two or three occasions you also consulted your personal diary to refresh your memory?
A. I do not have my own diary.
COURT II CASE IV
Q. Well, you referred to a diary that you consulted before you answered Dr. Von Stakelberg's questions.
A. I did not support myself on any diary but I looked at the notes which I made now by virtue of this battle calendar.
Q. Well, you are reasonably sure, after studying this battle calendar, that the places and dates that you gave yesterday are correct, are you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Now you recall that the witness's Otto and Sauer testified either without any notes at all or with some little notes that they prepared themselves from their own memories.
A. I don't know what material they had available.
Q. You don't recall that Dr. Krauss went over to investigate what Otto had in his hand?
A. It is quite possible but I don't know exactly.
Q. Has it occurred to you how exactly the dates that you gave yesterday coincide with the dates and places that Otto and Sauer gave?
A. Afterall, I did not have Otto's statements available to me. The record of Otto from only part of one afternoon session I only received last night, and up to now I have only been able to read about 20 pages of it.
Q. But you heard him here in court, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And you heard Sauer?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you recall that there is any great conflict between their testimony as to the places and dates with your testimony?
A In part, yes, however, in detail I must examine the material first when I shall have it available in the record.
Q In other words, the differences are so minute that you can't remember them with having the transcript before you?
A I did not write down the dates, and whenever I have to listen to ten or twenty different dates and figures, then it is impossible for me to remember them.
Q Well, are you in general agreement with Sauer and Otto that the supply services of the division were where they said it was at the time they said it was? The dates approximately coincide, do they not, with your---
A I have just stated that I can't judge that as yet. I well first have to read the transcript and make a comparison.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel let me tell you the dates that I made a note of from Otto's testimony.
MR. FULKERSON: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Tarnapol, 15 of July.
MR. FULKERSON: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Shitomir, 30th of July; Biala Zorkow, 15 August Dnjepropetrowsk, September 1st.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q You will concede, will you not, that Otto and Sauer were actually in the supply services of this division?
A It is impossible for me since I myself did not set up this battalion and since I did not spend much time with this battalion to know more than 300 men who were in that battalion.