On the 13th or 14th of July we went to the area of Shitomir. There we stopped for two, or perhaps three days, and on the 16th or 17th of July via Skwira we went to Biala-Zerkiev.
In Skwira itself we stopped for only one day and changed over our supplies and then left Skwira for Biola Zierkiev. At Biela Zierkiev the supply battalion stopped for the first time for some length of time, we stopped there from the 18th or 19th of July until the 30th or 31st of July. I am inclined to think even that we stopped there until the 1st or 2nd of August, because so far as I remember, we then said: "This is now only one day short of two weeks". From there we marched via Tarasche to Korsum Bugoslaw. In this area of Bugoslaw we stopped three or five days; between the 5th and 6th of 7th of August, we went by Gorodice, to Smela. In Smela we were cut off from the division by a Russian break through, and I told the supply battaliento go back by Gorodice, with a pause at --- I forget what village it was -- to Fyororki. At Fyordorke we stopped for sometime again. I can not tell exactly how long, for as I stated there, for a short period of time, I think, one day, and then by order concerning supplying of winter clothing and such supplies, I went home to the Reich. It must have been between the 25th and the 30th of August. The supply services were then transferred from Fyodorke to Wlosewatka, a distance of about seventy or eighty kilometers to the west of Dneropetrowsk.
THE PRESIDENT: What date did you say it was when you went back to the Reich. What date did you say?
THE WITNESS: I can not give you an exact date, Your Honor. It must have been between the 25th and the 30th of August. I returned only during the middle of September.
THE PRESIDENT: You mean you returned to the division later on in September?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I returned to the division during the last days of September, and I, for instance, did not see the arrival of the supplies which I had caused myself, anywhere.
BY DR. STAKELBERG:
Q. Witness, it was not quite clear, I am told, whether on the 26th, between the 26th and 30th of August you left the division and went where?
A. I went to Berlin.
Q. To Berlin, but why?
A. To arrange for some supplies of winter clothing, and in order to negotiate with the Army group en route, in order to be given a transportation of army vehicles, and in order to make an exchange of goods or clothing for something ahead for the division.
Q. Then you returned to the division?
A. I said that must have been the 10th and 15th or the 12th and 15th of September.
Q. And you finally left the division?
A. When I was given an order to prepare myself for the administration of the tank corps. I was to be an administrative official, and it was either on the 29th or 30th of September, when I reported to the Commanding Officer of the division and took leave.
Q. In 1941, you mean?
A. Yes, quite.
Q. During your absence, where were you usually?
A. As a rule, I would be in the divisional headquarters with the commanding officer of the division, and with I-A, who is the first general staff officer; or I would be with the Quartermaster General, I-B, which is known as the second general staff officer. Further, I had to maintain liaison with the administrative officer of the corps, of the Army Corps, which was superior to us. Temporarily, also, I was in immediate contact with the Army in charge of us. In certain cases, at certain intervals, for days, I would also be in the rear with the supply battalion.
Q. How were you located physically so far as the battalion was concerned?
A. That depended. Sometimes the supply battalion would be ten or fifteen kilometers behind the staff of the Quartermaster General. In some cases fifty, sixty or seventy kilometers. That was decided upon by the supply depots, as from the read we had to keep up our line of supply communications in the course of the battle areas, and the places where the various regiments were located.
Q. The supply battalion itself, was that always together? Did it always march in close formation?
A. That also depended. The supply column would move about in whatever active service necessary. The Butcher Company, for instance, it was quite possible that it could be shifted somewhere else. The Butcher Company marched together with the supply columns in those cases. The Baker Company on the other hand could not suddenly remove itself. It had always to finish its baking. Moreover, the bread, or the new bread had to be left behind in some vehicles in order to be sent up afterwards. Whilst some of the Baker Company marched ahead in order to establish its bakery at the new location, the remainder of the Baker Company packed up, and some vehicles at least would be left behind for the new bread to be sent up latter on.
Q. Witness, how was your state of health at that time?
A. At first I was still ailing, from the operation I had, but later on I was all right. The first one or two weeks, perhaps, I was not feeling too well.
Q. How were you released from that state? Were you released as fully recovered?
A. I was released at my own request, because of the fact the division had been transferred and I wanted to go back to the division and I had sufficiently recovered to be able to be used again.
Q. Now, witness, from Otto's statement, you know what this charge is in detail?
A. Yes.
Q. Let's first of all turn to the incident at Zloczow. When did you march through Zloczow?
A. I had severed myself from the supply column before, and went ahead to the divisional staff. I was not together with the supply column when it marched through Zloczow. I was then with the Quartermaster General of the division between Zloczow and Tarnopol. We were on a field in a camp under canvas, north to the advance march road, on the same site was also the medical officer of the Army Corps, as well as the Quartermaster General of the Army Corps, and the Administrative Officer with his staff. It was there that I was given a report about the new supply situation, which was drawn up from sheets in view of the military situation. New orders were issued about supplies by the officer under the general staff, and for the supply service the area around Tarnopol and the City of Tarnopol itself was selected.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Dr. Stakelberg, I think your question was, when was your march through Zlotzow?
DR. STAKELBERG: Yes, I think it is too much.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I have not as yet heard when?
BY DR. STAKELBERG:
Q. Witness, when did you march through Zlotzow?
BY DR. STAKELBERG:
Q. But in any case it is a public shed document, which was printed and published and at the time to anybody.
A. Yes on the basis of these gazette the battles have been entered in all and as much of principle, all entries are made of battles in to the individual military papers for the soldiers.
Q. That is all. By this you mean that is a public document, a public gazette that you can see there?
A. Yes it is perfectly an official publication.
Q. From this plan of campaign you see what? What can you see, can you see your own movement there from it, or the movements of the Supply Battalion?
A. This does show the division march in the various areas, the battle days and always entered at large intervals.
Q. I see.
A. And on the basis of these entries from the exact dates one is in a position to arrive at a conclusion about the supply situation and the march in order to refresh ones memory.
Q. I see what you mean. These battle calendars are concerned with the movement of the whole division.
A. Yes.
Q. And if you see the dates of the movement of the whole division, you can conclude the dates when the supply battalions marched, and whether it marched slightly behind the speerhead?
A. Well, this remained the same always. The monent when the division advanced, I cooperated at the head to issue the orders with regard to the supply problem. After all I am the general staff officer worked on the orders for the supply column.
THE PRESIDENT: Take a recess, Dr. Stakelberg.
A. I beg your pardon, the exact date I can only get from my diary. I can not tell it from my memory to you.
Q. All right, give it on the basis of your knowledge there, it does not matter?
A. It must have heeb either in the last days of June, or in July, it might have been around the first or second.
Q. The end of June or the beginning of July?
A. Yes, quite, the first or second of July.
Q. All right. Important is, from what can you arrive at those dates?
A. This is the official battle calendar from the official gazette, No-43-23, issued on 1 December 1943, page 126, No. 476, Battle Names of the SS-Armor Division, Wiking, the 1 December 1940 to 18 November 1942.
Q. This then is an official - -
MR. ROBBINS: May I ask that this official document be marked in evidence.
BY DR. STAKELBERG:
Q. Have you got the official document there?
A. It is only printed extract from that document. I assume that somewhere in the Court archives the original must be available, because I have heard that these gazettes are available.
THE PRESIDENT: You can ask to see this in cross examination, Mr. Robbins.
Q. Where did you get the printed page that you are using?
A. Am afraid I can not tell you. I saw - - - got it from Tschentscher and I don't know where he got it. I assume however, it must have come somewhere from some defense counsel, perhaps, from some gezettes.
Q. Anybody could get one from the record room, or the place where the books are kept.
A. I don't know the conditions of course - well, of course I do not know.
THE MARSHAL: There will be a recess for fifteen minutes.
(recess)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Your Honor, may I continue with my examination of this witness?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes Please.
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q. Witness, before the recess we stopped when we discussed the time when you passed through Zclozow. You stated that this happened, If I recall correctly, between the 29th of June and the 1st or 2nd of July.
A. Nes, that is correct.
Q. Now, please tell me how and in whose company did you come through Zclozow?
A. I can't recall that with certainty any more. I don't know who accompanied me there. Who of my companions was with me, I cannot say. Either it was my ordinance officer and my driver or it was just my dirver. I don't know whether both of them accompanied me. However, with certainly I can say that it was one of them.
Q. Were you passing through Zcloosw in a car?
A. Yes.
Q. And with what unit did you pass through Zcloozow? Were you going through the twon with your supply battalion?
A. No.
Q. And were you before or behind your supply battalion?
A. I was ahead. I was going ahead of the supply battalion.
Q. Did you go with your divisional staff or any other unit, or by yourself?
A. I drove ahead through the area between Lemberg and Samotsch alone in a vehicle by myself. It is possible that my first collaborator was with me in another car. However, I can't recall that exactly any more. It has always been the case that whenever I was on the way from one place to the next that I would come back from the division, or when the the division was on the march I would go grom my supply battalion again ahead to the division.
It was approximately so that I had to by-pass between 3,000 and 4,000 vehicles on that strip of the route. In order to get to the head of this supply battalion during a march to the division staff,
Q. Can you state with absolute certainty because I know exactly that I was coming from the head, from the division and the head of the supply battalion, that was Tschentscher, was with the Bakers Company east of Samotsch - -I beg your pardon, it was not Samotsch but Scloozow. He had arrived at the east of Zcloozow shortly before and Tschentscher was with the office and he had arrived there together with the food office some time before, and he was standing on the road with the vehicles, while the Bakers Company had already arrived there and they actually were operating. I myself brought the order that the Bakers Company was to move ahead. It was raining very hard at the time and I myself went immediately back up ahead to the division.
Q. At this time where was the food office located.
A. It was to the east of Zcloozow.
Q. Zcloozow?
A. Yes, it was to the east of Zcloozow. However, I don't know precisely any more today whether the city was 1, 2, or 3, kilometres further back.
Q. Was the food office also to the east of the citadel?
A. I can't say that anymore. Tschentscher was directly at the bivouac area with this vehicle; that was the bivouac area of the Bakers Company.
Q. If we can consider the situation here which Otto has presented to us, then this must have been to the east of the citadel.
A. I said before that I can't recall houses on streets or any bigber buildings along that road at all.
Q. You mean to say that no buildings could be seen there?
A. Nothing that drew my particular attention. Nothing was so outstanding that it impressed itself on my memory.
Q. Was the square where Tschentscher was standing located at a bridge?
A. No. I can't recall having seen a bridge there. It wasn't there, because it was road which was covered with mud to some extent. There was a lot of mud there and, as far as I can recall, a wrecker was trying to get the trucks back on the road which had become stuck in the mud. The soil consisted to a very large extent of clay there. That was the area where the Bakers Company was located.
Q. If you can recall the description of Otto correctly, he had stated that the Bakers Company had bivouaced in the gravel pit near Zcloozow, which was located to the east of the citadel--
A. I have already said that it was the east of the city of Zcloozow. However, whether that was 500 metres if 1 or 2 kilometres, that I don't know any more to-day. However, when I drove back from the division I did to touch that city any more.
Q. And you said that the food office was standing on an open road which however was covered with mud?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there a bridge or swamp?
A. I can't recall that; there was a soil of clay as we esperieuced so continously in the Ukraine. It was very sticky and it was heavy soil.
Q. And at this time the food office also was on the same level with the Bakers Company, it that what you just said?
A. Yes, I met Tschentscher directly near the baking stoves which were operating.
Q. Then, according to Otto's description, it could not have been near the bridge?
A. I can not recall any bridge there.
Q. How long did you stay there?
A. I stayed there for ten or fifteen minutes, and then I myself drove up ahead of the column with my vehicle.
Q. Then I can state that on one occasion you passed through Zloczow, but, as you said, you passed through there before your supply column did?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you pass through Zloczow directly?
A. I would like to emphasize that I passed through Zloczow on the day before the supply battalion did. I stayed overnight on a bivouac of my division and the army corps, and only on the following morning did I return.
Q. You can recall exactly that after you passed through Zloczow you stayed in the bivouac of the corps?
A. It was a divisional staff and the quartermaster of the army corps, yes.
Q. You stayed there overnight, and then you drove back, and at that time the food office and the baker unit were at the same location and the food office was in an open, muddy road, is that correct?
A. Not quite; I must correct you. The bakers' company was operating. It was stationed there. The food office had just arrived there.
Q. That is what I said. The bakers' company was in its bivouac, and the supply column was on the road at the same location. Can you recall that it rained?
A. Yes, and the soil was very wet.
Q. Do you know anything about the atrocities which Otto has described as having happened at Zloczow and in which he alleged that you took an active part?
A. Of the atrocities at Zloczow I know only a description which was given to me afterwards when I heard about a mass grave where the civilian population -- that is to say, the members concerned -- were about to identify the corpses. It was alleged that these deeds had been committed by the Russians before they evacuated that area.
I myself have witnessed only atrocities at Lemberg and Tarnopol.
Q. Did you witness atrocities?
A. I only saw the corpses.
Q. What I mean to say is, if you talk about atrocities at Lemburg, what did you see there? Did you see corpses there, and whose corpses were they?
A. When I passes through Lemberg, there was a very broad road. It was a big building there, and on this road there was a very sickly smell of decay. A large number of civilians were crowded around in front of this building. This was a prison. I myself drove to the side of the road, and I stopped there for approximately three to five minutes. I stood up in the car, and I only looked into the gateway of the prison where there was a lot of activity and where I could see only a gateway from a distance of 30 to 40 meters, how corpses were being carried back and forth. I could see only a short part of that gateway.
Q. I asked you who had committed these murders?
A. I'll come to speak on that in a minute. The military police of the army had blocked the gateway, and I spoke to some members of the military police who came near to my car, and I asked them what was going on. They told me that these were Nationalist Poles and Ukrainians who had been shot by the Russians in the prison before the Russians evacuated this area. At the moment I left in my car, a militia detach ment was carrying picks and shovels, and they marched straight into the prison yard.
However, I would like to state that the reporter from the supply battalion who took photographs, either before the time or afterwards must have been there, and had made several films. I myself have seen the film afterwards.
Q. My actual question was sidetracked a little bit. Otto described certain atrocities which are alleged to have happened at Zloczow, and he alleged that you took part in them. Did you participate in such atrocities?
A. No.
Q. Do you ever hear that such atrocities were committed?
A. No.
Q. Does Otto's claim that you were at the head of the supply column on the bridge apply at all?
A. No.
Q. Then the next locality which was mentioned by Otto was Bogdanowka, it was called Beraslowka in the English translation. I don't know whether that is the same locality. It is alleged that there you were observing Oberscharfuehrer Senn how he took three Jews away for execution, and you are alleged to have told a crying boy who was accompanying his father that he was to be quiet or, you are alleged to have threatened him, he himself would be shot if he was not quiet.
A. It is incomprehensible to me how a human being with a normal mentality can invent such fantasy.
Q. Is it true or is it not true that at Bogdanowka you witnessed such a scene?
A. Neither at Bogdanowka nor at any other place or any other time in Russia or in the compaign in the West. In this connection I would like to say that I only again met the supply battalion one kilometer before Tarnopole, after I had left it at Zloczow.
Q. Consequently, you, in the village of Bogdanowka, were not together with your supply column, as Bogdanowka is said to be between Zloczow and Tarnopol?
A. I can't recall this village of Bogdanowka at all.
Q. You say that after you left your supply battalion at Zloczow you only saw it again, as you said -
A. One kilometer before Tarnopol. The head of the supply column arrived at the cross-roads, at the very moment when the road and the border of the city of Tarnopol were being bombed. That is why I can recall that incident clearly, and I was accompanied by my first co-worker. The head of the supply battalion started to bivouac there, approximately one kilometer before Tarnopole. It was 300 to 500 meters south of the road on which the column was advancing.
Q. And you say with certainty that you did not see either Senn nor any other member of your supply battalion when they were taking or driving Jews for an execution?
A. Yes, I know that with absolute certainty.
Q. You have never seen that?
A. No.
Q. Consequently, the scene which has been described here by Otto is false?
A. Yes, it is untrue. It is completely invented.
Q. I believe that at Bogdanowka the defendant Tschentscher is alleged to have read an order in which, allegedly by order of the divisional administrative officer, it was announced that Standartenfuehrer Weckerle had been shot by Jews and that for this reason, nobody could be punished if he would kill a jew. Did you ever issue such an order?
A. In this connection I would like to state the following: I have never issued such an order, and I never could issue such an order.
If, in reality, I had been inclined in this direction and if I had issued such an order -- to which, however, I was not entitled, as far as the military service was concerned -- I probably would have been dismissed immediately by my divisional commander, who, as an old officer, was known to be an especially correct. I would have been dismissed from my position, and I would have been placed before a military court-martial. At the very least, I would have been immediately relieved of my position.
Furthermore, I have heard here for the first time from the witness Otto that the regimental commander, Weckerle, had been shot by a Jew. We never heard that story at all in the division.
Q. What was said at the time about the death of Weckerle?
A. Weckerle went from his combat commend post to the head, and two men reported to him that, out on the open road, that they had been shot at. He then continued to advance on the road and he saw that, in a corn field, a German steel helmet was moving. He assumed that this was a German soldier who had been wounded. He stopped with his vehicle and the officer who was accompanying him, his driver, and he himself got out of the car and at the very moment somebody started firing at them. At that time, the regimental commander Weckerle was killed by a bullet in his head. Therefore, this was an incident in a combat area and this was not a murder which could be determined in any way.
Q. And where did you receive this version of the incident?
A. In the division, there was no other version at all.
Q. Is this the official information to the troop unit or was the official notification of death?
A. I don't know what the individual description was, but I can only remember this version.
Q. Where did you get this information?
A. Well, I heard it from the divisional staff.
Q. Therefore, this statement by Otto also is completely invented and false?
A. Yes.
Q. Otto has further stated, and Sauer has confirmed this, that at Tarnopol Jews were employed by the butcher's company and that they were maltreated there. Was this fact known to you?
A. No, it is completely unknown to me.
Q. Where was the butcher's company located?
A. The butcher's company could not be billeted in the slaughter house because the slaughter house was administrated by the army and the local headquarters. Two or three supply battalions were billeted there in and around Tarnopol belonging to various divisions. I can recall precisely that we had to furnish slaughterers to the slaughter house and that from the slaughter house we then received meat so that we could distribute and divide it up.
Q. And to whom was the slaughter house subordinated at the time? Who was in charge of it? What unit?
A. This was done by order of the army. The commander of the army slaughtering service was incharge.
Q. But it was not the butcher's company of the Division Wiking?
A. No.
Q. Do you know whether Jews were employed there?
A. I don't know anything about it because I myself never entered the slaughter house. However, I would like to state in this connection that this was the only slaughter house of which I have heard in Russia. Otherwise, we did not even enter any big city.
Q. At Tarnopol, the witness Otto has alleged that he heard of an order there according to which Jews were to be assembled for work, and if there were no longer used Jews for work any more, they were to be sent to ghettos. Did you ever know of such an order?
A. I have never seen such an order or a similar order and I have never heard anything about it. It is completely out of the question because I have never seen any civilian working detachment that worked with my units, aside from Jewish working detachments, I did not see any civilians working in my units at all.
Q. What do you mean "aside from Jewish workers"?
A. Well, he emphasized that particularly. He stressed that particularly. I say, neither Jewish workers nor any other civilian workers.
Q. You say, neither Jews nor any other civilian workers?
A. Yes.
Q. The next locality which Otto mentioned is Shitomir, and Otto and Sauer have stated that there Oberscharfuehrer Surth of the baker's company had shot six Jews.
This incident was supposed to have been general knowledge. Did you hear anything about this incident, officially or unofficially?
A. No, never.
Q. Have you yourself been in Shitomir?
A. Yes.
Q. Was the supply column - the butcher's company and the baker's company - billeted together in one troop barracks?
A. No.
Q. Do you recall that Sauer stated that here? Is his testimony false?
A. I can say that it is false with one hundred per cent certainty.
Q. Why? What was the situation and please describe it to us?
A. The food office was billeted approximately one to one and a half kilometers in the south-west direction before Shitomir. There I received a visit from the corps administrative officer, and furthermore, the corps physician was also there. When we were there in the yard of a seed growing estate, there was an air attack on Shitomir. After approximately one hour and an hour and a half had passed, a runner of the baker's company came from the town and he reported to us that the baker's company had suffered several casualties as a result of this air attack. I can recall this incident quite clearly because I, at that time, was with the food office and the chief of the food office, the co-defendant Tschentscher, was in bed because he was incapable of doing duty. He had the so-called "Russian disease." This was a disease which resembled dysentery. He was treated by Dr. Gerhardt. He was transported as a bed patient to the next base, to Skwira. There only he again became capable of doing duty and at Skwira I left the food office and went up ahead to the division.
Q. Witness, the witness Otto has stated here that he had seen Hauptsturmfuehrer Braunagl at Zloczow and that he also participated in the alleged atrocities. The witness Sauer has testified that he has seen Haupsturmfuehrer Braunagl at Shitomir during the incident which has just been described.
A. Both of these statements are untrue.
Q. What happened to Braunagl?
A. Braunagl was the chief of the baker's company. As a result of a motorcycle accident, he left the company before the supply battalion left the area to the west of Lublin. That was before the supply column even got moving. He was taken to a hospital in that locality and he only returned during the late days of August at the very earliest, and I believe actually that is only was in the middle of September, to Wlosewatka, and, at the same time, he went back to the battalion. That was the last locality which I passed through while I was still together with my division.
Q. Therefore, you can say with certainty that Braunagl was neither at Zloczow or Shitomir?
A. Yes. Furthermore, the story which Otto gave us drew my attention when it was put to him whether he could say with certainty that Braunagl also had been present, even if other said something to the contrary, here he told the story about Samotsch. He stated that he knew with certainty because he had seen Hauptsturmfuehrer Braunagle when he was limping along on a cane at Samotsch and that he talked to him at that time. Braunagl told Otto that he had loaded the wrong coals on his truck. In this connection I would like to make the following statement. Samotsch is located approximately one hundred kilometers behind the locality of the field hospital. The supply battalion only arrived several days after Braunagl had incurred his accident, and passed through Samotsch. Furthermore, the baker's company did not use any coal whatsoever for the baking ovens and it could only use wood.