A. It is this gentleman over there(indicating)
Q. Mr. Wolf?
A. I don't know his name.
Q. Was a stenographer present when you gave your affidavit to Mr. Wolf?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you dictate yourself any part of your affidavit to the stenographer?
A. No, I did not dictate it myself.
Q. You gave it to Mr. Wolf and he dictated it?
A. Yes.
Q. And no part of it was dictated to you, you are certain of that?
A. I only dictated the beginning, my name and personal data, the first paragraph.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't know whose turn it might be now. Suppose you interrogate Mr. Wolf, if you wish, and then may follow.
BY MR. WOLF:
Q. Witness, you told us just now that after I had interrogated you and you had signed the affidavit you suddenly remembered that something might not be quite in accordance with the truth or that you had not base yourself on observations but hearsay, is that correct?
A. That is correct inasmuch as I have said that it was not the truth I had given, but rather I was incriminating somebody by my statement.
Q. Well now, did it not occur to you after the interrogation, and after you had signed the affidavit that in that affidavit you had made statements which perhaps you could not answer for.
A. No.
Q. You were convinced, after you have been thinking things over, that this affidavit which you gave me was in accordance with pure truth?
DR. BERGOLD: This is a leading question. Mr. Wolf will reshape his question and then we might see eye to eye.
Q. (By Mr. Wolf) Were you, after you had been thinking things over, still of the conviction that you had been speaking the truth in you affidavit?
A. Yes, for the single reason that in the interrogation I told you that I had not observed these things myself, but I had been told about then. You yourself pointed this out. You asked me, "What have you heard in the camp? I know that you were ill; I knew that you were not on active duty, but you must have heard some-thing."
Q. Witness, will you please remember all the details of the interrogation. Did I swear you in properly?
A. You pointed out to me that I was about to make a statement under oath.
Q. Before we wrote down the affidavit did I swear you in?
A. I did not swear an oath.
Q. Who was present at the interrogation and when the affidavit was written down?
A. There was a lady present.
Q. Who else? Wasn't there a guard there?
A. Yes, there as a guard there.
Q. Did the lady take the affidavit down in shorthand?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, three weeks before I interrogated you, were you interrogated by somebody else who was part of the Nurnberg Prosecution Team?
A. Yes. I was briefly interrogated before on a Saturday afternoon.
Q. Did that gentleman ask you whether or not you had worked at Wewelsburg?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you please tell the Tribunal what you told him?
A. I told him that I had been to Wewelsburg, that I had not been on active duty.
Q. If that gentleman should appear here and was to tell you that you had told him that he had been on guard duty there, what would you say?
A. I cannot remember saying that I had been on guard duty.
Q. Well, now, about your affidavit which you gave me on 25th of February, 1947, can you remember that during the taking down of the affidavit I, on several occasions, interrupted you and interrupted myself when I was speaking myself and told you that you must speak the truth, and that I did not want any assumptions from you but only such things as you had seen yourself or been told by your fellow guards?
A. Yes. After you had asked me first, I told you that I know nothing of the camp. I don't know whether you remember that I said this, that I had been ill, not been on duty. Thereupon you said, "But surely you must know what has been going on in the camp. After service hours you talked about these things."
Q. Do you remember, Witness, my asking you what you had been doing a Wewelsburg?
A. Yes. I told you ten that I had been ill.
Q. Do you remember equally precisely that you told me that you had been ill, had bee tied to your bed?
A. I was in the troop hospital.
Q. What would you say, Witness, if the secretary who took down the affidavit would declare on oath that you said in answer to this question of mine that you first of all had been on guard duty for a while and secondle worked in the office for one day.
A. I never said that.
Q. Witness, how far was the hospital away from the camp Wewelsburg?
A. I was on the fringes of the camp. There was the camp and then there were the kitchen building, the canteen, etc, and then near the forest there was the hospital.
Q. You could look into the camp, could you?
A. No, I could not look in the camp. I don't know whether it was surrounded by a wall or barbed wire. Anyway between the hospital and the castle and the camp there were barracks.
Q. When at the camp, I believe on 14 July 1942, you reported for service, to whom did you report?
A. I reported to the guard unit, and I was taken over to the troop accommodation. I don't know the name of the company commander any more.
Q. Were you healthy at the time?
A. No. I was sent there from stellin because of bad health.
Q. Were you sent to the hospital immediately on reporting?
A. No, I was sent to an examination the next morning.
Q. Did you report to Hauptsturmfuehrer Haas?
A. No, I did not report to him.
Q. When did you see Haas for the first time?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did you see him at all?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell me, Witness, you say that you yourself saw coffins on the trolley.
A. Yes.
Q. As you said yourself, the hospital was not a very big distance from the camp but you could not look into the camp. Where was the truck with the coffins?
A. It passed the hospital.
Q. It passed the hospital.
A. Yes, if it wanted to leave the camp it had to pass the hospital.
Q. Where were you at that time?
A. In the hospital.
Q. Were you in bed?
A. I was at the window.
Q. The window? And you saw the truck pass by, did you?
A. Yes.
Q. Whom were you talking to about that?
A. Some other patient.
Q. What sort of patient was that?
A. I don't know.
Q. Was he a member of Wewelsburg camp?
A. A member of the guards unit.
Q. A member of the guards' unit? I see. And that mean told you about what was going to happen to the coffins?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell me, Witness, I asked you what sort of inmates were at Wewelsburg camp, and you told me they were political prisoners, Jehovah's witnesses, and other categories whom you can no longer recall, it that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. How did you know that?
A. The inmates had been marked, and as I did not know the marking I asked what they meant, these colors.
Q. You saw inmates, in other words?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. Bur really you would have seen quite a number of inmates in order to determine all these categories.
A. I needn't see the inmates myself, because after all if you are somewhere, are to be on duty there, you try to find out about conditions and what was going on, and as everything was so new to me, I, of course, asked questions what sort of people were there.
Q. How many inmates were there in Wewelsburg camp during this time?
A. If I remember rightly about five hundred
Q. The figure in you affidavit of 25 February is correct therefore?
A. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess, Mr. Wolf.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. WOLF: With the permission of the Court, I would like to ask a few additional questions.
BY MR. WOLF:
Q Witness, would you please take a look at page number 2 of your affidavit, dated the 25th of February, 1947. In the last paragraph you state: "Hauptsturmfuehrer Haas, who was the commander of the inmates, gave the impression to me to be a very brutal person, and it was his fault that those horrible conditions prevailed. However, Sturmbannfuehrer Klein was informed about those conditions. And I also perceived that he personally could have convinced himself of these conditions."
How can you make that statement, witness?
A It was very easy for Sturmbannfuehrer Klein to move around in the camp and convince himself of all the things that were going on.
Q You stated before that you never saw Sturmbannfuehrer Klein before -- and now you assert that it was possible for Sturmbannfuehrer Klein to convince himself of these conditions. You even said: "I saw him personally."
A Well, it isn't stated here -
Q You state in your affidavit: "I also saw..."
A "--that he could personally convince himself of those conditions." By that I did not mean that I saw Sturmbannfuehrer Klein myself.
Q What do you base your statement on, witness?
A Because Sturmbannfuehrer Klein, whenever he was there, could go to the camp and he could convince himself of all the things that were going on and happening there.
Q Therefore, he could convince himself?
A Yes.
Q You also got to know that he did so?
A No, I did not know that. All I knew was that he had the possibility to go there and to take a look at the things going on there.
Q Witness, the sentence: "However, Sturmbannfuehrer Klein was absolutely informed of the conditions, and I also saw that he personally could have convinced himself of those conditions." Do you realize what that sentence means?
A Well, I believe you understand the sentence differently than I do. I saw that the possibility could exist for Sturmbannfuehrer Klein to be in the camp and convince himself of the conditions there.
THE PRESIDENT: The word in the English translation is not "I saw" but "I know."
MR. WOLF: Your Honor, this seems to be the wrong translation then.
THE PRESIDENT: I know that he had the opportunity... What is the German word?
MR. WOLF: The German word is "Gesehen", which means that "I saw".
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
MR. WOLF: He personally saw ....
THE PRESIDENT: Well, don't you think that word means: I see; I understood that he had; realized?
MR. WOLF: That is probable, your Honor, yes.
BY MR. WOLF:
Q Witness, all these perceptions which you stated in your affidavit of the 25th of February were known to you by tales on the part of your co-guards, with the exception of that one incident when you saw him yourself?
A Yes.
MR. WOLF: I have no further questions.
BY DR. BERGOLD: (Counsel for the defendant Klein)
Q Witness, you know me, don't you?
A Yes.
Q On the 19th of July, 1947, I interrogated you in Dachau?
A Yes.
Q Can you tell me again who was present?
A There was an American officer present, and a young lady.
QQuite correct. Did the American officer speak German?
A Yes.
Q Can you remember that at the beginning of the examination I showed you Affidavit No. 1, and I asked you to read it?
A Yes.
Q Can you also remember that I told you that I wanted to know the full truth from you; if my client Klein did something wrong, then he was to pay for it? Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Can you remember I told you that three times?
A Yes.
Q Is it correct that at the end I asked you to read the affidavit which I had written?
A Yes.
Q Is it correct that I told you: "You can sign that absolutely freely...and it is up to you if you want to sign it or not?"
A Yes.
Q Is it correct that the American officer also asked you if you wanted to sign or not?
A Yes.
Q Thank you. Did I, at any time, point anything out to you; for instance, that the affidavit which you drew up with Mr. Wolf would be used against you in the denazification trial?
A No.
Q Did I, at any time, tell you that the SS would come back, and that the people who made statements against the Higher-SS leaders would be marked men? Did I ever tell you that?
A No.
Q I just told you I wanted the full truth?
A Yes.
Q Witness, is it correct that you told me, that in Wewelsbuerg you never found out that Herr Klein was a Sturmbannfuehrer, and that fact you only learned when Mr. Wolf told you?
A Yes.
Q Therefore, if, in your affidavit, you speak of Sturmbannfuehrer Klein, this knowledge of the title of Sturmbannfuehrer Klein is to be brought back to Mr. Wolf? Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Therefore, you knew nothing whatsoever -- you didn't know what Mr. Klein's rank was?
A No.
Q Thank you.
At the end you stated that you convinced yourself that Sturmbannfuehrer Klein could have gone to the camp at any time. How, however, could you convince yourself of that fact if you did not know the rank of that Mr. Klein? You did not know whether he was an SS man or whether he received the permission to go into the camp.
A Well, I was told that Sturmbannfuehrer Klein "is at Wewelsbuerg."
Q What were you told: Sturmbannfuehrer Klein? Or what?
A No, I was told Herr Klein -- let me say Herr Klein. I did not know his rank at the time. I was told that Herr Klein was at Wewelsbuerg. As far as I know, he was to be in charge of reconstruction at Wewelsbuerg. Also, since inmates were being used for that construction work and that he had close contact with the camp because the guards also told us the things that Klein would come to the camp.
Q The guards said that Klein was coming there? Any Klein, or that-
A No; the man by the name of Klein who is up at the castle.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Did you know that there was an SS man with a minor rank named Klein at the camp?
A No, I didn't.
Q You didn't learn that a Scharfuehrer whose name also was Klein was there, did you?
A No, I just couldn't tell you. I can't recall the names of people who were there.
Q When Mr. Wolf asked you about the figure 500 and as to whether that figure is approximately correct, how do you know that figure is correct? Is that something you heard, or did you personally convince yourself of the correctness of that figure?
A No, I didn't. I could not convince myself of that. I was told at the time that approximately 500 inmates were interned in that camp.
Q Therefore, you couldn't tell me that the figure is correct, could you? You can only tell something like that if you know it yourself and if you have convinced yourself of that fact.
A Well, yes, when Mr. Wolf asked me about that figure 500, I said that it was correct as to corresponding to the figure which I stated during the examination.
Q In other words, you didn't mean to say, then, that the figure actually existed?
A No, I couldn't. There may have been more or fewer.
Q Witness, you said something before about nettles. Did you know that the German Wehrmacht was collecting nettles in order to improve the food?
A Yes.
Q Do you know that the German soldiers also were receiving nettles for food?
A Yes.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honor, I'd like to make a statement to the Court right now. In America it might seem horrible to you to eat Court No. II, Case No. 4.nettles.
However, in Germany even my children picked nettles every spring because those nettles contained vitamins which can be used in soups and also when eating vegetables. They taste about the same as spinach. I eat nettles every year. For weeks and weeks on end I eat those nettles with my meat, and I love them. That is, I eat them if I can get them. Of course, right now I won't get any meat with my nettles; but I'll be satisfied with nettles.
THE PRESIDENT: Maybe that's why you haven't been feeling so well lately.
DR. BERGOLD: No, your Honor, I don't believe that's it.
Q I have one more question, Witness. After you had signed the first affidavit, you stated before you returned to the camp and thought over the entire matter to make sure of whether what you had stated was correct. Did I understand you correctly?
A Yes.
Q Why did you think about the whole thing afterwards? Why did you think about it if what you had said was correct?
A Well, it can be understood that if one gives an affidavit one will have certain misgivings and at least think it over afterwards and let the entire matter go through one's mind again to make sure that the testimony was correct.
Q Did I understand you correctly to say that you didn't worry too much about it because you wrote the following sentence in the affidavit--that you knew those things from hearsay, rather than from your own knowledge?
A Yes, I said that.
DR. BERGOLD: I believe this is enough of this civil evil play.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further questions?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WOLF:
Q Witness, you said that you heard in connection with the Wewelsburg castle that a certain Mr. Klein was up there. What was that Mr. Court No. III, Case No. 4.Klein supposed to have been according to your opinion at the time?
Was he a "big-shot" or was he just a plain soldier?
A He was an SS officer.
Q An officer?
A Yes.
Q Therefore, you were told that Mr. Klein was an officer?
A Yes.
Q Dr. Bergold mentioned another man by the name of Klein, who has allegedly been in Wewelsburg; and he says that man was a Scharfuehrer. Would you please tell the Tribunal what a Scharfuehrer corresponds to in the army?
A A Scharfuehrer in the army is a Sergeant.
Q Therefore, he's much lower than an officer, is he?
A Yes, he's a sergeant to be quite sure.
MR. WOLF: No further questions.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honors, I have no further questions. I just have one question to the prosecution. It is known to me that the prosecution had certain inmates examined who had been at Wewelsburg, I believe at the same time as they did when the other witness was here. Don't you think it would be a good idea for the prosecution to bring some of those inmates from Wewelsburg up here to testify as witnesses? I'm quite sure they will all state that they don't know Herr Klein; but nevertheless-
MR. ROBBINS: I think all of my interrogators are here at the prosecution table, and they tell me that they have never interrogated an inmate from Wewelsburg.
DR. BERGOLD: This time I happen to know it better than the prosecution, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: This witness may be removed. The witness Dr. Morgen may be brought.
DR. KONRAD MORGEN, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
THE PRESIDENT: Raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. HOFFMANN (For the Defendant Scheide):
Q Witness, you are identical with the witness Dr. Konrad Morgen who testified in the trials before the IMT in Nurnberg for the defense of the SS; and in the Dachau and Buchenwald trials you also appeared as a witness for the defense? Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Witness, would you please describe to the Tribunal your curriculum vitae, starting with the day when you were born and with your family, also speaking about your university training and your professional training?
A I was born on the 8th of June 1909 as the son of a railroad engine mechanic in Frankfurt on the Main. I went through the Liebig Gymnasium there, and in 1928 I graduated. After I had graduated, I was an apprentice in a bank. Then I studied law at the Universities of Frankfurt on the Main, Rome, Berlin, and in the Academy Internationale in the Hague and at the Institute of World Economy at Kiel. In 1934 I passed my Referendar examination, which later developed into the training service of the justice; and in 1938 I obtained permission to hold the office of a judge. In 1936 I was promoted to Dr. Juror, Doctor of Law.
Q Witness, were you a member of the NSDAP or one of the affiliated organizations?
A In May of 1932, I became a member of the NSDAP and of the General SS.
Q Witness, would you please continue with describing the conditions after you completed your training, and particularly do devote Court No. II, Case No. 4.yourself to your activity after 1939 to 1945.
A In 1934 I had already difficulties with the Party. I did not vote when they were selecting a state president. As a lawyer, I had certain misgivings about leaving the entire power of a state in the hands of one man. It was held as a very grave offense against me as a member of the Party. A Party trial was started against me. I believe it was only thanks to my membership in the General SS that this was not concluded. However, in the SS I was kept on their files as an SS aspirant.
I should like to add that in 1936 I published a book concerning war propaganda and prevention of wars. That book also was considered bad by the Party and was criticized in a derogatory manner. I was reproached with not having pointed out that the Jews were the actually instigators of the wars.
In 1939 I became an assessor and judge at the District Court (Landgericht) Stettin. I was released from the disciplinary justice of the Reich. That was on the 1st of April 1939. The reason for that was that as a judge of a Penal Office (Strafkammer) of a District Court (Landgericht) and also as a president of the Landgericht I refused in one of the official sessions to participate in the judgments, leaving the courtroom in protest. That was a political matter, and I was under the impression that right and law was to be violated here. After that I was a legal advisor of the German Labor Front, Deutsche Arbeitsfront. I represented people who were working with other firms before courts. A short while after that I became the man in charge of several advisors' offices in Germany. At the beginning of the war I was conscripted into the Waffen SS.
Q What was your career in the Waffen SS, Witness?
A I was sent to the Reserve Battalion East in Breslau and received my basic training there. After that I was sent to the staff of a newly established regiment; I was transferred to that staff. In that regiment I became the personnel, social and legal advisor and expert.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
The regiment was not assigned to front-line duty; and it was dissolved after the French campaign.
After that I was transferred to the SS Jurisdiction Department. That was in the month of October 1941. I served there with the SS and Police Court number 1 in Munich. On the 1st of January 1941 I was transferred to the SS Police Court Number 6 in Cracow. At Pentecost 1942 I was dismissed from my office by Himmler. The reason was the following.
As a judge in a court martial I had acquitted one of the defendants, in spite of the fact that I was dealing with a case of rale pollution. The reason why I could do so was that when the sentences were passed which declared the defendant not guilty, they did not have to be submitted to any other authority. But somehow the Reichsfuehrer SS heard about this sentence. The Reichsfuehrer SS told the Main Office of the SS to start a trial against me with the aim of sending me to a concentration camp for two or three years. Due to the resistance which was put before them in the form of the opposition of the judges, the Reich Leader SS did not carry out that decision of his and ordered that I serve as a simple soldier on front-line duty, holding my weapon in my hand.
I was degraded from first Lieutenant to corporal and was sent to the reserve battalion Stralsund. There I was placed in the company of former criminals and I had to go through a six months horrible severe training. In December 1942 I was sent to the southern part of Russia, wearing a summer uniform, and was assigned to the Division "Viking." I went through with all the withdrawal fights through the steppe, and I also participated in the counter-attack at the Donez. After that the division was completely disrupted, and a company contained only seventeen men. The division was sent back to be reestablished. At that moment a telegram came, which transferred me back to Munich.
I again received my former rank, and by order of the Reichsfuehrer I was transferred to the Reich Criminal Office. The reasons for that were that they wanted to make use of my criminalistic talents. But I was to be kept away from all political matters. One of the first cases with which I dealt was the one in Weimar. That was the case of Bornschein, who was a member of the Kommandantur Headquarters of the concentration camp of Buchenwald. Certain investigations developed there against other concentration camps which I was in charge of.
After that, with the sentencing of those criminals from the concentration camps, a special court was employed, the SS Tribunal ZBV. I became the permanent prosecutor in that court; and that is how I returned to the Main Office SS Court.
In the middle of 1944 I was gradually withdrawn from the investigations and for a certain short while I dealt with other matters. After that I was a deputy prosecutor in the trials against Koch, the commanders of Buchenwald concentration camp, and others. I was transferred away from the Main Office SS Court then. On that occasion I was promoted to Sturmbannfuehrer, or major. In the month of December I was again transferred to the SS and Police Court in Cracow as a judge. On the 18th of January 1945 the Russians moved into Cracow, whereupon I was transferred to the SS and Police Court as a judge in Breslau. I was captured by the Russians when the capitulation took place.
I fled then, trying to find my way through Czechoslovakia to Bavaria, However, I was in constant danger of being shot at and killed. Then I fled northward to the Sudetenland, and from there I somehow managed to get across the border. I walked for a distance of over 1,000 kilometers, and arrived in Seckenheim in September 1945. I heard there that an officer for the CIC was already trying to find me, as they needed me as a witness for the investigations in connection with the concentration camp problem. I found the agency of that officer, the place where he was working. That was the headquarters for the CIC of the 7th Army in Mannheim. I reported there, and was thereupon placed under automatic arrest.
Q. Witness, as you were an SS judge, please describe to us very briefly the whole structure of the SS jurisdication and their relationship towards other justices.
A. The SS jurisdiction is a war jurisdiction. That means that that jurisdiction was only competent for soldiers of the Waffen SS, members of the Waffen on SS, and members of the police in special assignment.
The material and the formal right and law absolutely corresponded to the other courts and other laws, particularly the war courts as established by the Wehrmacht. It is necessary to stress the point that SS courts had nothing to do with civilians and in particular they had nothing to do with civilian population of the occupied territories. That is, SS courts had no right to take any political measures or pass such sentences; they simply could issue sentences based on the German penal code which existed.
Q. Witness, while describing your curriculum vitae, you stated that from approximately the middle of 1943 to the middle of 1944 all sorts of investigations were carried out by you in many concentration camps. How did you get to carry out those investigations? What were the points of view to be considered when carrying out those investigations?
A. I received the job of carrying out those investigations in the following manner. Shortly after I joined the Criminal Police Office, I went to the SS and Police Court in Kassel. The SS and Police Court in Kassel was carrying out a trial against a grocer Borncheim. This grocery was sending food-stuffs to the concentration camp at Buchenwald. Certain rumors had been passed on by the population that man was engaging in embezzlements. After a six-month investigation the Tribunal ordered the arrest of that person, who was, as I mentioned before, also a member of the headquarters staff in Buchenwald. The Tribunal could find nothing incriminating against that man. That was the reason why he was again released. The rumors among the people were widespread and it was believed that man had been let alone because he was an SS member. The SS and Police Court in Kassel therefore asked the Reich Criminal Office to send somebody down there, somebody who was a corruption specialist and who also was to be an SS officer at the same time, because certain investigations were to be carried out in the concentration camp of Buchenwald.
The Criminal Police had no permission to enter a concentration camp, I should like to add that. As the Reich Criminal Police Office had nobody else but me who fulfilled those prerequisites for the investigation, I was sent to Weimar. The case of Bornscheim was cleared up by me.