Q. Do you know any of the details why he refused to shoot the Jew? Did he tell you that?
A. I can understand his point entirely. He did not know what the ran had done, and he had no right to shoot this man.
Q. And so he refused, and then he was called before Tschentscher?
A. Yes, he refused to shoot this Jew, thereupon Tschentscher said to him--as he told me--that he would have him shot for insubordination, if he did not carry out the order. And Kirsch did not carry out the order. This was a threat on the part of Tschentscher to make this man an obedient tool.
Q. Now, you have described these various incidents in which members of your outfit witnessed and took part in atrocities against the civilian population. Do you think that Tschentscher knew about these things too? Do you think he had an opportunity to observe?
A. If it occurred within the first company, Tschentscher had every opportunity to observe these matters because Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher was always with the first company.
Q. If Tschentscher had wanted to prevent these things from happening, was he in a position to do that?
A. Certainly, if Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher had read an order that these things had to stop at once--the things would have stopped, because if an officer gives an order that order must be carried out, or else the man who doesn't will got into trouble for insubordination. He will face a courts-martial.
Q. What sort of officer was Tschentscher was extremely strict in disciplinary matters: guard duties, and so forth. He was an officer who acted strictly on the orders which he had received after directives and instructions reached him from "higher up".
Q. Was the control, the disciplinary control, that he had over his troops good or bad?
A. His control over the discipline of his troops was extremely good. I must say that, it really was very good as far as the discipline of the troops was concerned.
Q. But no effort was ever made, so far as you know, by him to stop these incidents in which Jews were being mistreated from recurring?
A. No, no efforts were made in that direction to prevent these excesses.
Q. When did Tschentscher leave your outfit?
A. I believe he did in Lasowatka.
Q. When was that, do you remember?
A. That was about a hundred kilometers outside Dnjepropetrowsk; I think towards the end of August--at the end of August or the beginning of September. That is when I saw Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher for the last time. I think he went back to Germany from there.
THE PRESIDENT: What is that date? First of September?
Mr. fulkerson; He said the last time he saw him was the first of September, yes, sir.
WITNESS: End of August or the beginning of September.
BY DR. FULKERSON:
Q. After Tschentscher left your outfit who was his successor?
A. Well, after Tschentscher left the company, it was for a time the divisional administrating officer, until somebody else took over. After him came Hauptsturmfuehrer Schaefer.
Q. Well, now stop there a moment. When Schaefer took over did any change take place so far as this mistreatment of Jews by members of the Supply Services was concerned?
A. From that moment onwards, when we left Lasowatka, in the direction of Dnjepropetrowsk no more excesses against Jews took place. From that moment onward all this stopped completely.
MR. FULKERSON: You may take the witness.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Let me ask you one question. Do you know Otto Gunther--I mean Guenther Otto?
A. Yes, he was a member of my company; he was transferred later to the first company.
Q. How long was he in the battalion?
A. Otto was with the battalion until he appeared before a courtsmartial, which was in December of 1941.
Q. Was he with you in these various towns that you have named?
A. Herr Otto was in all the towns which I mentioned.
Q. All right.
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG (Counsel for the defendant Fanslau):
Q. Witness, when did you arrive in Zclozow?
A. In the afternoon, between four and five.
Q. What day was that, roughly?
A. That I couldn't tell you.
Q. The beginning of July, I suppose?
A. Yes, we reached Zclozow at the Beginning of July.
Q. Was Guenther Otto with you?
A. Guenther Otto was there with the first company. He was attached to this company temporarily.
Q. Were you marching with the First Company?
A. Yes, within the battalion, we marched together. The First Company was in front of us, then the Second Company, then the Third Company. The First Company was the unit which reached Zclozow first, ahead of us.
Q. The First Company was Supply Office?
A. Yes, it was the Supply Office.
Q. And the Second Company?
A. The Second Company was the Bakery Column.
Q. Bakery? And you were in the Third Company?
A. Yes, that was we, the butchers.
Q. And you say that the order of march was that the Supply Office headed the column?
A. Yes.
Q. And they were followed by the Bakery?
A. Yes, the Bakery, and then the Butchers' Company.
Q. And were you marching in a closed column? Was the whole battalion marching together?
A. No, sometimes we would be stopped by the bad roads or a vehicle broke down.
Q. What I meant was in Zclozow?
A. In Zclozow we were in the middle of the town. The First Company must have been in the neighborhood of a bridge, I think.
Q. The First Company
A. Yes.
Q. You were in the center of the city?
A. Yes.
Q. And the Bakery column?
A. The Bakery was behind us, immediately behind us with their vehicles.
Q. Behind you?
A. Yes, we used another road in order to reach the town earlier and therefore we were ahead of the Bakery Company reaching the town.
Q. Did you halt in Zclozow? Were you interrupted there?
A. Yes, we stopped there because as people told us a bridge had been broken down in front.
Q. How long did you stop?
A. We went into quarters 500 metres behind the citadel, put up guards, because the Russians had left the town only five or six hours ahead of us.
Q. How did you get behind the citadel, via the broken down bridge?
A. No, the citadel was situated on a hill, in front of the citadel there is one road. That road branches off to the left into a gravel pit near that town. We took that lefthand road after the Second Company which was ahead of us because they took their quarters there and we stopped for the first time and we and that company accommodted ourselves in the gravel works.
Q. I am not quite clear about the locality. Let us be more precise. You told me you arrived at four or five in the afternoon. The Supply Column first stopped, as you heard that a bridge was broken down, and then what happened?
A. Then we, the Butchers Company and the Bakers Company went into quarters in the gravel works.
Q. You passed the Supply Columen?
A. Yes, the trucks of the Supply Columen were standing on the righthand side. We left them, passed them by and went to the left towards the citadel.
Q. Was there a second bridge?
A. No, there was only one road leading out of the town. In order to leave the town again, we had to go back to the main road and then leave the town by the bridge.
Q. The bridge had been repaired?
A. When at dawn of the next day we passed the bridge, the bridge was repaired and could be used by vehicles.
Q. And did the Supply Columen stay in the city until the next morning?
A. No, they had left. Some of them were outside the town. The bridge became ready in the course of the night. One part was still immediately in front of the town. The vehicles were not put into garages and the people remained with their vehicles.
Q. And didn't you tell us you went across the bridge and left the town? When did the Supply Column leave?
A. The Supply Column must have left ahead of us.
Q. Ahead of you?
A. Yes.
Q. When? At the crack of dawn, or in the night?
A. I believe it must have been before dawn. We left and the Bakery Company left as the last company because they had their baking vehicles and had baked bread during the night.
Q. While the Supply Column was staying in Zclozow, was the Bakery Column all the time behind them?
A. Yes, they were always in the gravel works behind the citadel
Q. I see. What do you mean, behind the citadel?
A. When I entered the city from the West going east.
Q. Across the bridge?
A. Yes, across the bridge. The gravel works is situated behind the citadel on the left of the bridge.
Q. I see. In other, words, between the Bakery Company and the bridge there was a citidel?
A. No, don't you see? My hand represents the town there. On a hill there is the citadel and in the prolongation of this pencil about 500 metres behind the citadel was the gravel pot and in the direction of my thumb down in the valley there was the bridge.
Q. I see. What you mean is, the citadel was on the side.
A. Yes, it was; to the right, right in the valley was the bridge
Q. The Supply Column stayed there from the afternoon, from four or five until dawn, then they had leave?
A. Yes until the crack of dawn.
Q. Did you approach the bridge while you stopped there?
A. No, we did not see the bridge; only when we crossed it, we saw that the bridge was there, because on the left and the right, but more on the right, there was a swamp, a swamp under the bridge. That was in the morning about five or half past five, and, as it was summer, it was already light.
Q. There was a swamp, but you were not at the bridge yourself?
A. No, I did not see the bridge myself.
Q. When you drove on, did you notice the the fields and the road between the bridge and the citadel had been devastated?
A. Yes, there were shell craters and bomb craters.
Q. Did you notice anything peculiar there?
A. When we arrived there was nothing ther, except the craters. We did not stop there too long, only about an hour and half. perhaps, and drove on towards the gravel pits where we put up for the night and we only saw the bomb craters and shell holes. The town had been devastated to a great extent by bomb and shells.
Q. But I understand you correctly. You went across the bridge only the next morning?
A. Yes, it was only by the next morning that we crossed the bridge.
Q. On the next morning, after the Supply Column had already left, you did not notice anything peculiar at the craters?
A. I saw nothing at the craters, no. We were driving on a bus. You know yourself it is high above the road. You could look down from high above, but we didn't see anything at all.
Q. Do you know where Defendant Fanslau drove on that occasion?
A. No, I couldn't tell you that.
Q. The order of the vehicles in detail is unknown to you, is it?
A. No. All I know is that Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher went ahead as the first and the wireless car followed, and then there was a car with a mounted machine gun in case of attacks by bands of stragglers or par tisans.
Q. I see. Tschentscher, wireless car, machine gun car?
A. Yes, The machine gun car had a few men on top.
Q. And then?
A. And then the other vehicles of the company and the rest of the battalion.
Q. Do you know who drove ahead of Tschentscher?
A. NO, I couldn't tell you.
Q. Tell me, when you arrived in Zclozow, you said the population were indignant about something?
A. Yes, they were greatly reused when we arrived in the city and left our vehicles, because the battalion supply depot was there. We fatched our supplies ther since for days we had been relying on the field rations and the people there told us -- I understand little Russian, you know -- that the members of their families had been taken into the citadel weeks age and had not returned.
Q. Who had taken them to the citadel?
A. Who took then to the citadel? According to the statement made by the population and the relatives they were taken by member of OGPU to the citadel.
Q. And they made up there the mass grave? That was the same occasion when the OGUP had chased the people-- you mean in the time before the Germans-
A. Yes.
Q. And, if I understand you correctly, it was the civilian who drove on the Jews.
A. No, soldiers also took part in this, they gathered the Jews together and drove them up to the citadel.
Q. I see. But not members of your battalion?
A. I did not see any one of my battalion taking part in this.
Q. Tell me what happened in the next village, in Tarnopol. Were you working in the slaughter house there?
A. No, I was with the sausage department.
Q. And the incident you described with Oberscharfuehere sit?
A. S-i-r-t-h. Sirth.
Q. I see. Sirth. Was that incident reported to anyone?
A. I don't think the incident was reported.
Q. In your opinion, it was not passed on to the circle of officers?
A. In my opinion and knowledge, but I can't check this up, but in my opinion, if members of that battalion had known of this, the superior officers should also hear about what happened, because in Shitomir, we were all in one barracks together.
Q. I mean the higher superiors, such as the Defendant Fanslau.
A. Oh, I don't know whether Fanslau knew about this or not.
DR. VON STAKELBURG: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: We will now and be prepared to continue the crossexamination tomorrow morning.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until August 21, 1947, at 0930 hours)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et l., defendants sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 21 Aug 1947, 0930, Justice Toms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
DR. VON STAKELBERG (Attorney for the defendant Fanslau): May it please the court, may I add a few questions to yesterdays crossexamination?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
ARNOLD SAUER - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION - Continued BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q Witness, when you stopped in Zclozow, did you see Mountaineers?
A Yes.
Q Mountain Groups?
A Yes.
Q Were they in the city of Zclozow?
A Yes, they were.
Q Now, the marching order, which you described to me yesterday, I want to know about that. Where were all the other vehicles of your unit?
A The other vehicles of the unit were in the following manner: First of all there was the Chief. Then there was a bus with men, and then a few personal cars, and another bus -- we had two buses. And that was the second of these vehicles of the company.
Q Yesterday, you gave me a definite sequence, didn't you?
A I told you who was heading the battalion. That was Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher. Sometimes it stopped and then the other company would go ahead and we saw the vehicles there during the stops perhaps.
Q And who was behind Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher?
A Behind him there was a wireless car.
Q A wireless car?
A Yes. There was a wireless car in order to keep up liaison or something else. I don't know what it was used for.
Q And what was behind the wireless car?
A It was another vehicle, which sometimes was driven empty and sometimes it had a machine gun in case of raids or air attacks.
Q Where was the medical officer, the field exchequer? Where was Sturmbannfuehrer Schaefer's car?
A They were all with the staff, because the staff followed immediately on the battalion commander. In some cases the vehicle stopped and rested from the long drive and then later on they caught up again.
Q Were they immediately behind the car with the machine gun or ahead of it?
A Sometimes they went ahead and perhaps talked to Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher. Sometimes they were with him and towards the end when they stopped.
Q In the sequence before the bridge in Zclozow, where were you?
A We were in the center of the town.
Q I don't mean you, I mean the cars?
A They were at the bridge.
Q But not ahead of the car of the regimental commander?
A I don't know whether they were ahead of the MG car or not, because, after all, the company had left the town before us.
Q Who was your company commander?
A Haupsturmfuehrer Kocholaty.
Q Was he among those present?
A Haupsturmfuehrer Kocholaty was present in Zclozow.
Q Who was the company commander of the Bakery Column?
A Hauptsturmfuehrer Braunagel.
Q Was he present?
A Whether he was present or not, I don't know, because these vehicles were behind us.
Q They were behind you?
A Yes, the second company was behind you.
Q And yesterday you said that Einsatzgruppen were not in that neighborhood.
A No, I did not see any Einsatzgruppen at all.
Q Now I want to have the following points very clearly summed up. You say you arrived at Zclozow at 4 or 5 in the afternoon?
A Yes, our company did.
Q You stopped there and stayed the night?
A Yes.
Q Including the Supply Column?
A Yes, certainly they stayed the night also.
Q The Bakery Column came after the Supply Column, did it?
A Yes, the Bakery Column overtook us and reached the gravel pit and after the Bakery Column, we reached the gravel pit also.
Q But that happened only after the Supply Column was there already?
A Yes, they had been there already.
Q And you told us that when these Jews were being herded together the Supply Column did not take part?
A I did not see anybody from our column.
Q Now, as far as the bomb craters were concerned. You were not struck by anything peculiar when you drove past them?
A No, nothing was to be seen at that point when we drove past.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: May it please the Court, for the record, I would like to point out that these last points are clear contradictions of what Witness Otto has told us.
I have no other questions for the time being.
DR. KRAUSS: (Attorney for the defendant Tschentscher): May it please the court, with your permission, I wish to cross-examine this witness.
BY DR. KRAUSS:
Q Witness, what profession did you learn?
A I am a butcher.
Q And what are you doing nowadays?
A I am a clerk with Viag in Munich.
Q From when to when were you a member of the Viking Division?
A I was a member of that division from the time it was established until I was wounded on 21 October 1944.
Q 21 October 1944?
A Yes, then I went to the hospital and then I went back home.
Q Were you a member of the Allgemeine SS?
A Yes, from 1938 to 1939 in April.
Q And you were transferred from the Allegemeine SS to the Waffen SS?
A Yes.
Q Until Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher left were you with the unit?
A Yes.
Q Did you form an impression of Tschentscher's character and his human qualities?
A We had very little to do with him, unless there were special company conversations, as I said yesterday, and I repeated my testimony.
Q Herr Saur, Tschentscher was not the commanding officer of your company, was he?
A No.
Q What was your last rank with the Waffen-SS?
A Unterscharfuehrer.
Q Herr Sauer, how did it come about that you have become a witness in this trial here?
A I was requested by the Tribunal as a witness.
Q Did you volunteer for this?
A How do you mean? I received a request to come voluntarily as a witness in this trial.
Q No, you did not understand me. It wasn't easy, surely, to find your name and find you altogether. Did you volunteer and say, "I wish to give testimony in this trial?"
A Well, I saw a request which invited me to come here and I said that I would like to testify in this trial what I know.
Q In other words, you received a request and then you came here?
A Yes.
Q You did not report to some agency that you wished to testify in this trial?
A No, I did not.
Q Were you brought together with Witness Otto? Where you interrogated together?
A Otto was interrogated first. Then I was interrogated, and then we were both interrogated together. Otto and I were confronted with each other and I was asked if I know Otto.
Q Were you present when Otto was interrogated?
A No, I was not present. When he was interrogated, I was always told to leave the room, and he also, but then we were confronted with each other and we were together.
Q Did you know Otto well when you were at the front together?
A I knew him as a driver and the last time I saw him was when he left us and went to face the court-martial at the Miesk front in the citadel. I was doing guard duty and I was guarding him, because on the next day he was to be sent to his court-martial.
Q When you were interrogated here, together with Otto, did it become clear that Otto, from August 1945 until August 1946 had been committed to a lunatic asylum?
A I did not know that.
Q And that he escaped from it?
A That he was in Eggelfing-Haar, Otto told me himself, but that he had escaped from there, I don't know anything about.
Q You did not know that Eggelfing-Haar was a lunatic asylum?
A I knew that a lunatic asylum was in Haar.
Q. Did you know anything about how the court-martial was held and what conclusion it reached against Otto?
A. As far as I know he was sentenced at the time. I don't know how many years he got and he was sent to Danzig-Matzgau. I heard through two comrades from my company who had been sentenced for an offense and had been sent to Danzig-Matzgau and they wrote us and told us that Otto had arrived now.
Q. Herr Sauer, was it know in the company at that time that Otto, because of paragraph 51 -- this is the paragraph which deals with deficiency of responsibility because of a lack of mental capabilities -- that he was not sentenced to death for those reasons, but merely was locked up in protective custody to protect the community?
A . All I know was that Otto faced his court-martial because of a shot through his hand, a self-inflicted wound, it was held to be, but how it was handled in detail, I don't know.
Q. You have misunderstood me. I would like to know whether you knew that for Otto paragraph 51 was applied at the time. You didn't know that, did you?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Do you know what other punishment was usually given when people inflicted wounds on themselves?
A. Well, if this happened at the front, it depended on the conduct of the defendant in the battalion. It was either a death sentence or penal servitude for seven or eight years.
Q. Herr Sauer, I now wish to talk about the time in Dachau. As you have described it, Tschentscher gave a few lectures?
A. Yes.
Q. In one lecture it seems he also discussed the Jewish question?
A. Yes.
Q. And here it was said at least you said, so yesterday, that the Jews were a foreign body in the German national community?
A. Yes.
Q. I would like to ask you, Herr Sauer, did Tschentscher in some form or other explain the fact that Jews must be killed and that they must be exterminated and that they must be annihilated, and that they must be sent to concentration camps and concentrated in ghettos, or did he merely give you general ideas that Jews simply were a foreign body in our nation.
A. That the Jews were a foreign body in our nation and that within Germany they must be taken away -- under "taken away" you can understand concentration camps or ghettos, but that they must be sent to ghettos or concentration camps Tschentscher did not say in so many words.
Q. Did he say that they must be killed?
A. Nothing was said about killing, only the general aspects of the Jewish question was discussed.
Q. Herr Sauer, I shall briefly touch on your description of the Zclozow incident. You told us that in the city at various points of the city, dead Jews were lying around.
A. Yes.
Q. Why do you think they were killed?
A. Well, when we saw the treatment of the Jews on the road to the citadel, when they were being beaten not only by members of the Wehrmacht, but also by civilians; after all it was a fairly long road, about 500 or 700 meters drive that reached the citadel, they simply collapsed and died through the beating.
Q. Herr Sauer, would it be possible that these Jews had been perhaps the victims of air raids, preceding air raids, perhaps?
A. No, if anybody had been killed by air raids, the civilian population would also have suffered, whereas one say nobody else except the Jews who were lying around in the street.
I can remember three or four I saw lying around.
Q. What I wanted to ask you, Herr Sauer, is how could you be sure that they were only Jews?
A. You saw that from the long caphtan they were wearing and their features, which showed clearly that they were Jews.
Q. Did you observe that members of your units took part in these killings, as you call it, or did you merely see the Jews when they were dead already.
A. We reached the town and not very far from our vehicle there were two Jews. Whether the men of our unit had taken part in this or not, I don't know, because most of the Supply Column was busy fetching supplies on the right hand side of the street. It was the Supply Depot of the Russian Army.
Q. This taking up of corpses in the citadel which you mentioned was done under the supervision and direction of the Field Police of the Army?
A. Yes, I saw the Field Police of the Army standing around there We were not allowed to come very near. We were told to go away, but we saw the dead who were being gathered into the citadel. They were being laid down in the court yard.
Q. A general question and I want you to think very carefully before you answer, because of the gravity of the accusations raised here. Did you observe yourself at any time that Tschentscher himself became guilty of any excesses which led to the death of somebody else?
A. I did not see Tschentscher when he killed Jews. All I know is what other comrades have told me.
Q. What you have described, in other words, Herr Sauer, were none of your own observations. You were basing yourself only on hearsay?
A. On hearsay, yes, and the incident in Zhitomir.
Q. You told us yesterday that Tschentscher had been a correct officer?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you think that as a person Tschentscher is a man who would use his pistol indiscriminately and take part in excesses in so many spots and places as they have been enumerated here, killing local inhabitants, Jews, and so forth? You did go to the nearest point -
MR. FULKERSON: Your Honor, I would like to object because he didn't hear Otto's testimony and he has given a summary by counsel of what Otto is alleged to have testified. If he wants to ask this, I suggest that he be told the specific incidents and asked if he thinks Tschentscher is capable of doing such a thing.
THE PRESIDENT: Even that question would not be proper. It is a question for the Court to determine. It is formed on the basis of speculation and opinion, and it is not admissible. You might just as well ask the question whether Tschentscher is guilty or innocent, the same thing.
DR. KRAUSS: May it please the Court, I apologize. I did not ask whether Tschentscher had done this or that. I only asked whether Tschentscher as far as his knowledge on Tschentscher goes things of that sort and actions would be possible and conceivable on the part of Tschentscher. I think there is a large difference between the two types of questions.
THE PRESIDENT: There is a difference but it is not a very large one. You asked his opinion as to Tschentscher's capacity at committing crimes.
MR. FULKERSON: After all, Judas led an immaculate life, they say or know of, except as to one occasion.
THE PRESIDENT: The same might be said of Benedict Arnold.
DR. KRAUSS: If Your Honor please, no translation has come through, so with your permission I shall continue. The point is the prosecution did not speak in the microphone, I am afraid.
THE PRESIDENT: You understood what the Tribunal stated, Dr. Krauss.
DR. KRAUSS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, never mind what the prosecution said, then.
BY DR. KRAUSS:
Q. Witness, did you find an occasion of such in Tarnopol?
A. I did not see the civilians drive Jews in Tarnopol. May I say something else, that in our unit, our butcher company, were employed Jews and Ukranians in the slaughter company, I should like to add.
Q. Why did you suddenly tell me this?
A. Because I was not asked that question yesterday.
Q. Herr Sauer, please let me ask you this question. Did you or Otto or any member of the prosecution discuss these things last night?