Q. You mean he was not well informed about military tactics and so forth?
A. No, he was not very well informed about these things. When I came there from an infantry unit I knew quite a bit, and we frequently discussed this fact among the NCO's and the instructors that Tschentscher is not very well informed about these things.
Q. What was your rank at this time?
A. I was a sturmmann.
Q. From Heuberg where was this division moved?
A. On the first day of the Whitsun holiday we went to Breslau by rail, to the vicinity of Breslau.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I did not yet get the date of the activation of the division. You put that question but I don't recall an answer to it.
Q.(By Mr. Fulkersen) When was the division activated; when was the supply troop activated?
A. when the troop division was transferred from Heuberg to Breslau you mean?
Q. No, I mean ---- when was the Wiking Division first activated, that is to say, when were men first gathered together?
A. The division was formed in 1940, after the campaign in the West in the area of Munich and in the area of Vienna. The regiment Westland was established in the neighborhood of Vienna, and the flag regiment was established in the neighborhood of Munich.
Q. Those were both combat regiments though?
A. They were both combat units, yes.
Q. When was the supply services of the services activated?
A. The supply units were taken over --- when I came to Dachau this administrative unit already existed.
Q. Excuse me -- on what date -
A. On the 22nd of February 1940. I am sorry, I have to correct myself. 1941.
MR. FULKERSEN: Is that specific enough, your Honors?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Yes, yes, that gives me what I wanted.
Q. Now, in Breslau, what happened?
A. We were stationed in Breslau, 25 kilometers outside of Breslau at a place called Rohr. We simply did guard duty. We didn't do very much in Breslau. We were not being trained in Breslau.
Q. Were you given any more of these indoctrination lectures there?
A. I can't remember that. We were given political lectures there.
Q. When did the division first go into combat?
A. Approximately by the middle of June--perhaps on the 16th or 17th of June, we left Breslau and went to the area of Lublin, in Poland.
Q. And there the combat regiments were engaged with the Red Army for the first time?
A. No, not in Lublin. Lublin itself was part of Poland. There we were stationed until about the 24th of June without doing anything.
Q. Then what route did you follow from there? Give us the names of these places as well as you can, and the approximate dates up to, say, December of that year.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Did anything happen during this period?
MR. FULKERSON: Yes, sir; this is the period that the witness Otto was discussing, you see.
Q. Did you understand the question? I just wanted you to name the towns, the principle towns that the division passed through after it left Lublin up until about December of 1941. Give the Court an idea of what the course of the division was.
A. Do you mean the direction in which the division marched?
Q. That is right, the direction in which the supply troops went; the towns they went through.
A. We went from Lublin to Zclozow. The other places in between I did not remember.
Q. All right then; from Zclozow where did you go?
A. From Zclozow we went to Tarnopol.
Q. When did you get to Tarnopol?
A. We arrived at Tarnopol on the 15th or 16th of July, the middle of July.
Q. How long did you stay there?
A. We stayed there for about -- until about the end of July.
Q. Now, I should ask you first in which company of the supply services were you attached?
A. In the Third Company of the Supply services.
Q. And what was the function of that company?
A. The function of that company was to produce sausage and meat for the Wiking Division.
A. That was the Butchers' Company then?
A. Yes, it was the Butchers' Company.
Q. And the towns that you are naming are those in which the Butchers' Company was located, is that right?
A. The next villages, you mean?
A. No, I mean the towns you have already named are towns in which the Butchers' Company was stationed?
A. Yes; in Zclozow we were there for the first time, but we didn't do any work; we were merely in billets for a night, but we did work in Tarnopol.
Q. All right, and how long did you say you stayed in Tarnopol?
A. We stayed there until the end of July, roughtly the 28th or 29th of July, perhaps. It might have been two days earlier, perhaps, in Tarnopol.
Q. And from Tarnopol where did you go?
A. From Tarnopol we went to Shitomir.
Q. And when did you arrive there?
A. We arrived on the last day, on the day before the last in Shitomir.
Q. How long did you stay there?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Is that all very important? Really vital?
MR. FULKERSON: Sir, if I don't fix the dates when they were in those places--there again perhaps I am anticipating too much, but I know that we will have to go through it later, so I thought I will have him say it now.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Something is happening in each of these towns?
MR. FULKERSON: Yes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I beg your pardon.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. And did you say how long you stayed in Shitomir?
A. We remained in Shitomir about ten or twelve days.
Q. And then where did you go?
A. From there we went to Byelayar-Tserkow.
Q. And you were there how long?
A. In Byelaya-Tserkow we remained until the middle of August.
Q. From Byelaya-Tserkow did you go to Fidji Gorkiy?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. And when did you arrive there?
A. We drove on for about two days, and we arrived there in the middle of August. It was extremely hot, I remember.
Q. Can you give us a rough idea of where Fidji Gorkiy is?
A. Fidji Gorkiy was situated on a mountain; outside the village there was a lake.
Q. No, I don't mean the topographical description; I mean near what towns.
A. I am afraid, unfortunately, I can't tell you that. If I could see a map, I could perhaps tell you, but I can't tell you what town there was in the neighborhood of Fidji Gorkiy.
Q. Well, for example, was it between Dirma Kerka and Dnjepropetrowsk?
A. Yes, it was situated in that area.
Q. All right, was it north or south of the Knjepr river?
A. It was southwest of Dnjepropetrowsk.
Q. And when did you finally arrive at Dnjepropetrowsk?
A. We were stationed near Dnjepropetrowsk at the beginning of September, at a distance of about 100 kilometers, on an estate called Losowatka.
Q. All right. Now, so much for the itinerary. Now, let us go back to Czlozow.
When you arrive in Czlozow, did you see any unusual things happening so far as the relations between the German Army and the civilian population was concerned?
A. Yes, we saw that Jews were being herded together, and driven up to the citadel of Czlozow.
Q. Where were these Jews being collected?
A. The Jews were dragged out from houses and had to go through the main street up to the citadel.
Q. What sort of treatment were they being given as they were being collected, if you know?
A. What treatment these Jews were given, you mean?
Q. Yes.
A. They were driven on; they were beaten because civilians had heard that the members of their families were up on the citadel in a mass grave. The civilians were so indignant about that the Jews were being tortured because civilians had been told that Jewish commissars, people like that, had been participating in the murders.
Q. Were any signs of this roundup still in the town when you went into it?
A. Yes, some were still lying around in the street who could no longer walk, they had been beaten so much. They were dead.
Q. You mean there were corpses of dead Jews still lying in the street of Zclozow when you got there?
A. Yes, there were dead Jews lying about in the main street.
Q. Who had collected these Jews there?
A. This collecting was done by the Wehrmacht, the civilians, the SS took part.
When we entered the city we saw that these people were being driven up to the citadel.
Q. Was there Einsatzgruppe or Einsatzkommando in the neighborhood?
A. No, no Einsatzgruppe or Einsatzkommando was in the vicinity of that town.
Q. You described this mass grave on the citadel. Did you go up there?
A. Yes, I saw the mass grave behind the citadel, about five hundred meters behind it. We took up our billets there and we were told that there was a mass grave on the citadel of murdered Ukrainians. We went there and looked at the mass grave, and there we saw Jews as they were digging up these corpses.
Q. And were there members of the Army and the SS there, guarding the Jews, who were doing this job?
A. The Field Police was there--not the Field Police of the SS but the Field Police of the Army.
Q. Who was supervising the operation?
A. The Field Police supervised the work.
MR. FULKERSON: If your Honor please, if you are curious I will go into the question of why they were opening the mass grave, but as I see it, it has nothing to do with this law suit.
THE PRESIDENT: No this is not necessary.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. All right, now in Tarnopol, did you see any sign of mistreatment of Jews, any signs that the civilian population generally was being gathered up in the way you described?
A. No, I did not see that in Tarnopol.
Q. You say no signs?
A. No, not in Tarnopol.
Q. Well, where was the first place that you saw signs of such things again?
A. That was in Shitomir.
Q. All right, describe what you saw in Shitomir.
A. With the bakery company in Shitomir there were Jews employed; Jews were brought along on trucks. They had to carry water, bags of flour, take the bread out of the ovens. And there we had, the case of Oberscharfuehrer Suerth.
Q. Well, describe this incident that you mentioned.
A. I saw that incident myself. Oberscharfuehrer Suerth, in the presence of several members of the Wehrmacht and SS, shot down six Jews with his Tommy-gun.
Q. Now, which outfit was this Oberscharfuehrer Suerth in?
A. In the Bakery Company.
Q. The Bakery Company of the Supply Services of the Wiking Division?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, how did Suerth happen to shoot these Jews?
A. I don't know that myself. I saw people standing around, a large circle of people in a barn. I went there. Iwo Jews were already lying in a grave, and I saw how Oberscharfuehrer Suerth shot the other four with his Tommy-gun. Why, I don't know.
Q. Did they give him any provocation?
A. So far as I could see, no.
Q. How you say that in Shitomir the bakers company was using Jews to do the work?
A. Yes, they were working.
Q. Did the Butchers' Company ever do the same thing? Did they ever round up Jews and-
A. No, we in our company did not employ Jews. We had enough men, and our detachment was not so large, so we did not employ Jews.
Q. Did it ever come to your attention, or did you ever hear that the defendant Tschentscher here was personally guilty of atrocities against Jews; and if you did hear, describe what you heard and the source
A. When we reached Byelaya-Tserkow we came one day, after the first company to Byelaya-Tserkow. We were told there that Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher had used a pistol to shoot at a Jew.
Q. And who told you this?
A. The members of that company that was stationed there.
Q. Was it generally talked about?
A. Well, that was passed on very quickly.
Q. Do you think that it is possible that a man could have been in that company without hearing that story?
A. That is entirely impossible. Everybody talked about it in the company very quickly after the event, and in my opinion everyone in the company must have known about it.
Q. Do you remember any of the details about this shooting as you heard it?
A. All I heard was that Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher had shot at this Jew, and that Stamminger, a member of the First Company, who was in his supply truck, jumped out because he thought the bullet might hit him, perhaps. Then Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher was shooting at this Jew.
Q. Oh, you mean that Stamminger was in a truck, and that the truck was struck by one of the bullets?
A. Stamminger was in his supply truck, yes, and he jumped out of it because he thought that perhaps somebody was shooting at him because, as I was told, this was the direction of the shooting.
Q. The old story of the innocent bystander. Now, did you know an SS-man named Kirsch?
A. Yes, he was a comrade of mine, a very good friend of mine.
Q. Did he ever mention to you a certain meeting that he had with Tschentscher at Fjidarky?
A. Yes.
A. What was that? What did he tell you?
A. SS-man Kirsch had to report to Tschentscher and was to kill the Jew by shooting. SS-man Kirsch refused--he told me this himself -- and he was told that if he did not carry out this order he would be shot for insubordination.
Q. Do you know any of the details why he refused to shoot the Jew? Did he tell you that?
A. I can understand his point entirely. He did not know what the ran had done, and he had no right to shoot this man.
Q. And so he refused, and then he was called before Tschentscher?
A. Yes, he refused to shoot this Jew, thereupon Tschentscher said to him--as he told me--that he would have him shot for insubordination, if he did not carry out the order. And Kirsch did not carry out the order. This was a threat on the part of Tschentscher to make this man an obedient tool.
Q. Now, you have described these various incidents in which members of your outfit witnessed and took part in atrocities against the civilian population. Do you think that Tschentscher knew about these things too? Do you think he had an opportunity to observe?
A. If it occurred within the first company, Tschentscher had every opportunity to observe these matters because Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher was always with the first company.
Q. If Tschentscher had wanted to prevent these things from happening, was he in a position to do that?
A. Certainly, if Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher had read an order that these things had to stop at once--the things would have stopped, because if an officer gives an order that order must be carried out, or else the man who doesn't will got into trouble for insubordination. He will face a courts-martial.
Q. What sort of officer was Tschentscher was extremely strict in disciplinary matters: guard duties, and so forth. He was an officer who acted strictly on the orders which he had received after directives and instructions reached him from "higher up".
Q. Was the control, the disciplinary control, that he had over his troops good or bad?
A. His control over the discipline of his troops was extremely good. I must say that, it really was very good as far as the discipline of the troops was concerned.
Q. But no effort was ever made, so far as you know, by him to stop these incidents in which Jews were being mistreated from recurring?
A. No, no efforts were made in that direction to prevent these excesses.
Q. When did Tschentscher leave your outfit?
A. I believe he did in Lasowatka.
Q. When was that, do you remember?
A. That was about a hundred kilometers outside Dnjepropetrowsk; I think towards the end of August--at the end of August or the beginning of September. That is when I saw Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher for the last time. I think he went back to Germany from there.
THE PRESIDENT: What is that date? First of September?
Mr. fulkerson; He said the last time he saw him was the first of September, yes, sir.
WITNESS: End of August or the beginning of September.
BY DR. FULKERSON:
Q. After Tschentscher left your outfit who was his successor?
A. Well, after Tschentscher left the company, it was for a time the divisional administrating officer, until somebody else took over. After him came Hauptsturmfuehrer Schaefer.
Q. Well, now stop there a moment. When Schaefer took over did any change take place so far as this mistreatment of Jews by members of the Supply Services was concerned?
A. From that moment onwards, when we left Lasowatka, in the direction of Dnjepropetrowsk no more excesses against Jews took place. From that moment onward all this stopped completely.
MR. FULKERSON: You may take the witness.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Let me ask you one question. Do you know Otto Gunther--I mean Guenther Otto?
A. Yes, he was a member of my company; he was transferred later to the first company.
Q. How long was he in the battalion?
A. Otto was with the battalion until he appeared before a courtsmartial, which was in December of 1941.
Q. Was he with you in these various towns that you have named?
A. Herr Otto was in all the towns which I mentioned.
Q. All right.
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG (Counsel for the defendant Fanslau):
Q. Witness, when did you arrive in Zclozow?
A. In the afternoon, between four and five.
Q. What day was that, roughly?
A. That I couldn't tell you.
Q. The beginning of July, I suppose?
A. Yes, we reached Zclozow at the Beginning of July.
Q. Was Guenther Otto with you?
A. Guenther Otto was there with the first company. He was attached to this company temporarily.
Q. Were you marching with the First Company?
A. Yes, within the battalion, we marched together. The First Company was in front of us, then the Second Company, then the Third Company. The First Company was the unit which reached Zclozow first, ahead of us.
Q. The First Company was Supply Office?
A. Yes, it was the Supply Office.
Q. And the Second Company?
A. The Second Company was the Bakery Column.
Q. Bakery? And you were in the Third Company?
A. Yes, that was we, the butchers.
Q. And you say that the order of march was that the Supply Office headed the column?
A. Yes.
Q. And they were followed by the Bakery?
A. Yes, the Bakery, and then the Butchers' Company.
Q. And were you marching in a closed column? Was the whole battalion marching together?
A. No, sometimes we would be stopped by the bad roads or a vehicle broke down.
Q. What I meant was in Zclozow?
A. In Zclozow we were in the middle of the town. The First Company must have been in the neighborhood of a bridge, I think.
Q. The First Company
A. Yes.
Q. You were in the center of the city?
A. Yes.
Q. And the Bakery column?
A. The Bakery was behind us, immediately behind us with their vehicles.
Q. Behind you?
A. Yes, we used another road in order to reach the town earlier and therefore we were ahead of the Bakery Company reaching the town.
Q. Did you halt in Zclozow? Were you interrupted there?
A. Yes, we stopped there because as people told us a bridge had been broken down in front.
Q. How long did you stop?
A. We went into quarters 500 metres behind the citadel, put up guards, because the Russians had left the town only five or six hours ahead of us.
Q. How did you get behind the citadel, via the broken down bridge?
A. No, the citadel was situated on a hill, in front of the citadel there is one road. That road branches off to the left into a gravel pit near that town. We took that lefthand road after the Second Company which was ahead of us because they took their quarters there and we stopped for the first time and we and that company accommodted ourselves in the gravel works.
Q. I am not quite clear about the locality. Let us be more precise. You told me you arrived at four or five in the afternoon. The Supply Column first stopped, as you heard that a bridge was broken down, and then what happened?
A. Then we, the Butchers Company and the Bakers Company went into quarters in the gravel works.
Q. You passed the Supply Columen?
A. Yes, the trucks of the Supply Columen were standing on the righthand side. We left them, passed them by and went to the left towards the citadel.
Q. Was there a second bridge?
A. No, there was only one road leading out of the town. In order to leave the town again, we had to go back to the main road and then leave the town by the bridge.
Q. The bridge had been repaired?
A. When at dawn of the next day we passed the bridge, the bridge was repaired and could be used by vehicles.
Q. And did the Supply Columen stay in the city until the next morning?
A. No, they had left. Some of them were outside the town. The bridge became ready in the course of the night. One part was still immediately in front of the town. The vehicles were not put into garages and the people remained with their vehicles.
Q. And didn't you tell us you went across the bridge and left the town? When did the Supply Column leave?
A. The Supply Column must have left ahead of us.
Q. Ahead of you?
A. Yes.
Q. When? At the crack of dawn, or in the night?
A. I believe it must have been before dawn. We left and the Bakery Company left as the last company because they had their baking vehicles and had baked bread during the night.
Q. While the Supply Column was staying in Zclozow, was the Bakery Column all the time behind them?
A. Yes, they were always in the gravel works behind the citadel
Q. I see. What do you mean, behind the citadel?
A. When I entered the city from the West going east.
Q. Across the bridge?
A. Yes, across the bridge. The gravel works is situated behind the citadel on the left of the bridge.
Q. I see. In other, words, between the Bakery Company and the bridge there was a citidel?
A. No, don't you see? My hand represents the town there. On a hill there is the citadel and in the prolongation of this pencil about 500 metres behind the citadel was the gravel pot and in the direction of my thumb down in the valley there was the bridge.
Q. I see. What you mean is, the citadel was on the side.
A. Yes, it was; to the right, right in the valley was the bridge
Q. The Supply Column stayed there from the afternoon, from four or five until dawn, then they had leave?
A. Yes until the crack of dawn.
Q. Did you approach the bridge while you stopped there?
A. No, we did not see the bridge; only when we crossed it, we saw that the bridge was there, because on the left and the right, but more on the right, there was a swamp, a swamp under the bridge. That was in the morning about five or half past five, and, as it was summer, it was already light.
Q. There was a swamp, but you were not at the bridge yourself?
A. No, I did not see the bridge myself.
Q. When you drove on, did you notice the the fields and the road between the bridge and the citadel had been devastated?
A. Yes, there were shell craters and bomb craters.
Q. Did you notice anything peculiar there?
A. When we arrived there was nothing ther, except the craters. We did not stop there too long, only about an hour and half. perhaps, and drove on towards the gravel pits where we put up for the night and we only saw the bomb craters and shell holes. The town had been devastated to a great extent by bomb and shells.
Q. But I understand you correctly. You went across the bridge only the next morning?
A. Yes, it was only by the next morning that we crossed the bridge.
Q. On the next morning, after the Supply Column had already left, you did not notice anything peculiar at the craters?
A. I saw nothing at the craters, no. We were driving on a bus. You know yourself it is high above the road. You could look down from high above, but we didn't see anything at all.
Q. Do you know where Defendant Fanslau drove on that occasion?
A. No, I couldn't tell you that.
Q. The order of the vehicles in detail is unknown to you, is it?
A. No. All I know is that Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher went ahead as the first and the wireless car followed, and then there was a car with a mounted machine gun in case of attacks by bands of stragglers or par tisans.
Q. I see. Tschentscher, wireless car, machine gun car?
A. Yes, The machine gun car had a few men on top.
Q. And then?
A. And then the other vehicles of the company and the rest of the battalion.
Q. Do you know who drove ahead of Tschentscher?
A. NO, I couldn't tell you.
Q. Tell me, when you arrived in Zclozow, you said the population were indignant about something?
A. Yes, they were greatly reused when we arrived in the city and left our vehicles, because the battalion supply depot was there. We fatched our supplies ther since for days we had been relying on the field rations and the people there told us -- I understand little Russian, you know -- that the members of their families had been taken into the citadel weeks age and had not returned.
Q. Who had taken them to the citadel?
A. Who took then to the citadel? According to the statement made by the population and the relatives they were taken by member of OGPU to the citadel.
Q. And they made up there the mass grave? That was the same occasion when the OGUP had chased the people-- you mean in the time before the Germans-
A. Yes.
Q. And, if I understand you correctly, it was the civilian who drove on the Jews.
A. No, soldiers also took part in this, they gathered the Jews together and drove them up to the citadel.
Q. I see. But not members of your battalion?
A. I did not see any one of my battalion taking part in this.
Q. Tell me what happened in the next village, in Tarnopol. Were you working in the slaughter house there?
A. No, I was with the sausage department.
Q. And the incident you described with Oberscharfuehere sit?
A. S-i-r-t-h. Sirth.
Q. I see. Sirth. Was that incident reported to anyone?
A. I don't think the incident was reported.
Q. In your opinion, it was not passed on to the circle of officers?
A. In my opinion and knowledge, but I can't check this up, but in my opinion, if members of that battalion had known of this, the superior officers should also hear about what happened, because in Shitomir, we were all in one barracks together.
Q. I mean the higher superiors, such as the Defendant Fanslau.
A. Oh, I don't know whether Fanslau knew about this or not.
DR. VON STAKELBURG: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: We will now and be prepared to continue the crossexamination tomorrow morning.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until August 21, 1947, at 0930 hours)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et l., defendants sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 21 Aug 1947, 0930, Justice Toms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
DR. VON STAKELBERG (Attorney for the defendant Fanslau): May it please the court, may I add a few questions to yesterdays crossexamination?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
ARNOLD SAUER - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION - Continued BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q Witness, when you stopped in Zclozow, did you see Mountaineers?
A Yes.
Q Mountain Groups?
A Yes.
Q Were they in the city of Zclozow?
A Yes, they were.
Q Now, the marching order, which you described to me yesterday, I want to know about that. Where were all the other vehicles of your unit?
A The other vehicles of the unit were in the following manner: First of all there was the Chief. Then there was a bus with men, and then a few personal cars, and another bus -- we had two buses. And that was the second of these vehicles of the company.
Q Yesterday, you gave me a definite sequence, didn't you?
A I told you who was heading the battalion. That was Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher. Sometimes it stopped and then the other company would go ahead and we saw the vehicles there during the stops perhaps.