A: I conclude that from the fact that the civilian employee Brecht, who used to be with Eirenschmaltz built the Dachau camp and came to see us in Munich sometimes, and Hauptsturmfuehrer Riedel came in from Buchenwald.
Q: But, witness, does the possibility exist that Brecht, who formerly had worked with Eirenschmaltz, was transferred somewhere else? Perhaps to the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps? And then was given these tasks after he had left Eirenschmaltz?
A: Yes, that possibility exists. I don't know too much about the internal conditions of Department V-5-A; I don't know too much about their changes. All I know is that Brecht left and went to Dachau.
Q: Do I understand you correctly if I take it that by the removal of Brencht to concentration camp tasks you deduced that Eirenschmaltz had worked on concentration camp problems because formerly Brecht had worked with him?
A: No; also because Brecht came and saw him a few times; that, in other words, he came and received orders or something else.
Q: But, witness, I want to know clearly and precisely from you; Was Eirenschmaltz the superior of Brecht or not?
A: In the old days -- yes, but I don't know what period of time.
Q: But this is the important period of time, when Brecht was in charge of concentration camp problems.
A: Well, I didn't work on concentration camp problems myself and, therefore, I do not know the details of another department.
Q: Is it correct for me to conclude that you are not absolutely certain and cannot state that Eirenschmaltz, in 1936 to 1938, worked on TV and concentration camp tasks.
A: All I know is that I deduced from the fact that Brecht and Riedel came to see Eirenschmaltz, that he worked on these problems, Dachau and Buchenwald.
Q: This is an assumption, a deduction?
A: Yes, it is a deduction. I cannot give you a document to prove it, or any official combination. I can't give you these.
Q: Oh, you can't? Then you have also deduced from the fact that Eirenschmaltz is supposed to have introduced you to a construction manager, you said construction manager -you mentioned Riedel. Did you meet any other construction manager through Eirenschmaltz?
A: Riedel is the only one I know about.
Q: Oh, is he the only one? Can you remember how you were introduced? What did Eirenschmaltz say?
A: No, I don't think I can. Well, we met because the whole department, all departments on that afternoon, had a day off in order to go and see this art exhibition, and, on the stairs outside the building, we met, and Eirenschmaltz introduced Riedel to me. It was always planned that I should take over that sphere of tasks.
Q: Witness, I must repeat: Whom were you to take it over from? From whom? Who was your predecessor?
A: Well, some from Eirenschmaltz, and anything new I was to take over I would get my orders from Pohl.
Q: What part did you take over from Eirenschmaltz? You said just now that you are not quite sure that Eirenschmaltz worked on such tasks at all. What were you to take over?
A: The field of tasks TV and Concentration Camps. Who worked on it I don't know, and where the files piled up, or what they worked on, what was doen in Munich or Buchenwald, let us say, I can't tell you because I had not taken it over -or never took it over. 6328
Q: Then you made a trip afterwards with Pohl, Eicke, and technical assistants? Was Eirenschmaltz among those present?
A: No.
Q: Why wasn't he, if he had to work on these tasks -concentration camp tasks and TV tasks? Who were the technical assistants?
A: On one trip there was a man called Bestel, and then there were some people from the economic enterprises, geologists, who looked at the stones, and I think also a few representatives of the legal department.
Q: Who was Eicke?
A: Eicke was the Inspector of the Death Head units, and concentration camps.
Q: What did he want on this trip?
A: On this trip?
Q: What did he have to do with it?
A: I don't know.
Q: What was laid down?
A: His site was looked for, where a labor camp could be established, a labor camp of the Dachau concentration camp.
Q: Did Eicke express his opinions on that trip?
A: Well, I myself was not present when Eicke and Pohl had the conferences. I was purely a spectator; I was not present at the conferences direct -- only if and when I was asked whether it was possible to establish a few barracks.
Q: Eicke was Inspector of Concentration Camps, was he?
A: Yes.
Q: Does the possibility exist that the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps at that time concerned itself with these construction matters, especially as Eicke went along again in 1938 in order to find land for new concentration camps?
A: All I know is the construction enterprises from point of view of the administrative offices; whether Eicke had a building department of his own, I don't know.
Q: Witness, please understand my question correctly. Surely it is a striking fact that the Inspector of Concentration Camps should be present on trips which are concerned with the construction aspect. Then surely the same assumptions you had for Eirenschmaltz applies also; namely, that the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps continued to concern itself with construction problems; or do you think that is entirely impossible.
As I know that the construction service was concentrated in the administrative offices, and I cannot imagine that other departments had construction offices which concerned themselves with construction matters at all.
Q: Well, then, please explain to me why Eicke went along on this trip which was devoted to construction matters?
A: Well, it was not devoted only to construction matters, At least, I couldn't say so.
Q: But, witness, surely it was devoted only to construction matters.
A: Well, I was present there as a building construction expert, but there were other experts there too, geologists, and people like that.
Q: Witness, the whole point of that trip was to find sites for concentration camps. You said so just now. Surely it was a construction trip in that sense, wasn't it?
A: Well, yes, in that sense, yes.
Q: Who took over the TV and concentration camps tasks?
A: My department, which was in charge of construction matters, I passed on to civilian employee Eckstein, who was also one of Eirenschmaltz's colleagues.
Q: In what department was he working?
A: Eckstein, you mean?
Q: Yes.
A: In Eirenschmaltz's office, V-5-".
Q: Did he remain there in V-5-A?
A: I can't tell you; I don't think so because Department B was an independent department, and I handed Eckstein over, and within ten minutes I had to leave the office and go into another one. I never had any more contact with the construction departments during the balance of my time with the administrative office.
Q: Eckstein left Eirenschmaltz's department, in other words, when he took over the TV and Concentration Camps?
A: I cannot tell you; I am unable to tell you that. I had nothing to do with it.
Q: How long did Eckstein work on these things?
A: I couldn't tell you, I am afraid, because by the beginning of August I left on a few weeks' leave, and finally I left on 31 August, 1938.
Q: Who was his successor?
A: I can't tell you. I don't know the period, of time until 1940.
Q: You left in 1938. Do you know that Eirenschmaltz wanted to leave at that time too? He had put in for his resignation.
A: I know there was a difference of opinion, and I believe for so e days or weeks, a few weeks before I had my differences with Pohl, he had a very grave conflict of opinion with Pohl. He told me personally, not officially, purely personally. I believe he put in for his resignation.
Q: Did you see the actual request?
A: He didn't actually let me read the document. He was quite frank to me and told me he had put in for his resignation. He wanted to leave.
Q: Do you know what happened to the request?
A: I don't know much about that. I know that I put in for my own resignation at the same time, and I believe later, when things were being reorganizaed, Eirenschmaltz was with Frank -- that was the Troop Administrative Office of the Waffen SS. It was a purely military department of the Special Tasks unit.
Q: When did he get there?
A: I am afraid I can't tell you. All I know is when I was called up he was there.
Q: That did he do there?
A: I couldn't tell you. At that time I did not see Eirenschmaltz again; only when the WVHA was founded did Eirenschmaltz again come under Pohl's authority.
Q: When you returned to the office Budget & Building, Eirenschmaltz was no longer there, and you were working in the WVHA, were you? From when onwards?
A: In Construction & Budget, in Office II, Construction, from the time when the WVHA was founded, in the spring of 1942.
Q: Until the end?
A: Yes.
Q: Then in your affidavit you say and make statements about the maintenance. You know that Eirenschmaltz was in charge of Department C-6?
A: Yes.
Q: You said in your affidavit that once a year permission was granted, it was stated before, what type of repair work would crop up during the year, and then a lump sum was granted for these projects.
That is how you expressed yourself in your affidavit.
A: Yes, that is how I remember it.
Q: The way things are formulated in your affidavit might lead to misunderstandings because one might come to the conclusion that apart from that another permission was necessary in all cases when repair work became necessary, I would like to ask you how is one to understand that phrase. Was the position that Office C-6 participated only once before when an estimation of the probable repair work was done, and that was all C-6 did, is it?
A: Yes.
Q: -- or over and beyond that, did C-6 have other tasks, particularly in all cases had to give a new permission?
A: No, C-6 for all garrison administrations, released a certain sum of money; the accounts were then drawn up by the office itself which needed the repair work, and handed in to C-6, the lists which did not have to give too many details were checked up by C-6 and they would then put the money required at the disposal of the offices. The man in charge of the agency would then have the necessary repair work and maintenance carried out, carried out by himself.
Q: Without any further permissions?
A: Yes, of course. Then you always had to have permission under the War Economy Regulations, under special construction measures by the total organization; for instance, the Organization Todt in the war was cut down time and again. I can remember that in 1943 the construction sum of 5,000 was the one for which you did not have to have permission -- whereas in 1944 it was only 500 marks, which you could use as a free sum, so to speak, and it need not have permission under the war economy.
It had nothing to do with the SS.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Von Stein, we will recess for fifteen minutes.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. VON STEIN (Attorney for Defendant Eirenschmalz): May I continue, Your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: Please do.
BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q. Witness, before the recess we stopped with the question of the construction expenses. You answered my question whether Office C-VI also was occupied with construction maintenance, insofar as to whether when repair work was carried out in each case, an inquiry had to be made to the Office once more, and you answered that question in the negative.
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. I now want to ask you whether you know just how the sum was reported to Office C-VI. What I want to know is whether Office C-VI in each case received a detailed list about the repair work which was to be carried out or whether only a total sum about the intended repairs would be submitted to Office C-VI.
A. The list of construction maintenance was generally a list which did not contain any individual figures. It was made for roof repairs or for the painting of rooms or for the irrigation, and for repair work, but it did not list any individual details with the planned expenses. It was just a general list and it was then compiled according to the buildings or according to the construction sites and then it was passed on to Office C-VI. It was not a detailed list.
Q. Witness, do you know that in times of war an unlimited budget was in existence and that, consequently, the individual construction manager did not have the duty of announcing the repair work in advance?
A. The construction manager had nothing to do with it, but only the administrators.
Q. Very well. Was it correct that the local administration continued to pass on the reports?
A. Yes, they reported it to Office C-VI.
Q. What I want to know now is whether in war time was it also their duty to pass on these reports or, whether as a result of the open budget, it was not necessary for them any more to announce the construction in advance?
A. From the directive which was issued in 1944, I am able to say that the funds were not be furnished anymore, by C-VI, and up to a certain number that was to be carried out by the Inspectorate. We still had an approximate announcement of the construction work to be carried out and it had to be approved by the Budgetary Agencies and the local administration would then dispose of these requests.
Q. Witness, in all case you gave limitation up to 1943?
A. To 1944, because the budget in 1944 and 1945 -
Q. Witness, what I mean is this: You want to tell us that up to the Year 1943, the Office C-VI dealt with this task and from the Year 1944, on, it was not the Office C-VI anymore, but it was the Office C-V.
A. Yes, they had to furnish the funds. The date is not correct. The date should be 1944. Just what funds were furnished for the fiscal year from 1 April 1944 to 31 March 1945 and were furnished by Office C-VI, I don't know, the Inspectorate or C-V, if the amount had been more than 100,000 marks then the Office C-V would have had to furnish it. However, this could not be carried out anymore, because in the meantime the War Economy Regulations had come out and no new repairs could be carried out, if they exceeded 500 Marks.
The SS could not issue the local administration any new material, and, if the War Economy Regulations did not specify any new material to be delivered, the SS could not give this permission, and, therefore, for the years, 1945 and 1946, these funds were not furnished anymore. The Inspectorate, that is, Office C-V, was competent for that and this material and these funds were not furnished anymore.
Q. In the years before, did the Office C-VI also receive any reports about the way those funds were used or didn't Office C-VI deal with that anymore, but another agency?
A. The funds were passed on from Office C-VI to the Budgetary Agency and they were handed over in such a manner that they were booked and spent on monthly accounts in contrast to construction bills where the accounts were only given for construction budget and construction maintenance on monthly accounts and the accounts were listed monthly. They were not listed separately and they were not examined by the Construction Office.
Q. What I want to know is where the monthly accounts were sent.
A. They were sent to the Auditing Office.
Q. What Office was that?
A. That was Office A. I don't know whether it was A-II or A-III. That was Vogt.
Q. A-IV?
A. Yes. It was Vogt, in any case.
Q. Witness, I am now coming to one of the most important questions in this trial. I would like to hear from you whether you know by what agency the crematoria and the gas chambers were built.
Who dealt with that matter?
A. The order for the construction of Barracks X at Dachau was issued by Office C-V. That is the office which issued all the construction orders.
Q. Was the Office C-VI concerned with that also?
A. According to administrative channels it was not concerned with it.
THE PRESIDENT: What is Barracks X? Is that the crematorium?
THE WITNESS: That was the crematorium at Dachau.
Q. (By Dr. Von Stein) Witness, when were the first crematoria constructed? In what year was that? When were the gas chambers constructed?
A. In the Area South in the Year 1943 in May and when I came to that area the Barracks X had already been constructed.
Q. Do you know when it was constructed, in what year?
A. I can't tell you that precisely. I came into that area accidently, when I was told that in Barracks X there was water in the cellar. I didn't know Barracks X and I was locking for it and here I discovered that the water had not been removed and that consequently there was water in the cellar and since the door to the cellar was open, I saw that there were urns, containers, there and consequently I realized that it was in some way connected with the crematorium.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: From whom did the order comt to C-V to construct crematoria at Dachau?
THE WITNESS: I saw later on that C-V- issued the construction order, C-V.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Who Told C-V to build it?
THE WITNESS: Well that was the Office Chief. I think his name was Lenzer.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Who told Lenzer to build it? <
THE WITNESS: I can't tell you that.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You don't know what high authority gave lenzer the order?
THE WITNESS: No, I don't know that. I don't know just how these construction orders were issued, through what channel.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Who was Lenzer subordinated to at that time?
THE WITNESS: Lenzer was subordinated to Kammler. He was a Chief of the Office. His name was Kammler.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Is Lenzer dead?
THE WITNESS: Yes, he is dead.
Q. (By Dr. Von Stein) Witness, in your opinion was this constructtion work only carried out during war time?
A. It seemed to me that these buildings had been erected during the war, because a certain limitation was ordered in the construction of the building and channels on the roof as so on. I could see that this building had been constructed during the war.
DR. VON STEIN: Your Honor, for the time being, I have no futher questions.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. There were two crematoria at Dachau. There's a small one and there's a Barracks X. Do you know who built the first one?
A. No, I can't tell you that either.
Q. That was already built when you went to Dachau?
A. Yes, the big one. Barracks X was already complete.
Q. And, of course, the small
A. The time this building was constructed must have been around 1941 or 1942.
Q. And then the small on was built long before that?
A. Yes, I don't know that, but I assume that it must have been built before the period of time. However, I can't make any statement about it, because I don't know it.
Q. Was the actual construction work done by one of the WVHA offices, or was it done by a private contractor?
A. The construction work was carried out by Office Group C. That was the Construction Service. Whether any private contractors were used, I can't say because at that I time I was not at Dachau.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross-examination, Mr. Robbins?
BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH (Attorney for August Frank and Hans Loerner)
Q. Witness, in what department of the Administrative SS were you working?
A. I always worked for the Construction Service, the Construction Department. Whether this department was moved or whether it was a subdepartment in V-IV-c or whether it was a Main Department in the sense, V-V or Office II, Main Office Construction and Economy of the WVHA Office Group, it was still the Construction service at all times.
Q. What did you officially have to do with the Department V-I, the Budgetary Department?
A. I had nothing to do with it officially.
Q. In you affidavit of the 3rd of July of this year, you have made the following statement at the beginning after the organizational chart had been put before you and after a detailed examination, "I consider this plan, according to the best of my knowledge and belief to be correct." In this chart, under Department V-I, Budget, we have the subdivisions of that. Please tell me now just how you obtained such precise knowledge about this sub-department. 6340 from Kaindl and that he was also transferred to Eicke later on and from that I conclude that Kaindl also had always dealt with these concentration camp construction matters.
I believe that Moser once received a certain recognition on some occasion. He was praised because the budget of the Special Duty Squards was functioning so smoothly.
A. Witness, you are speaking a little bit too quickly. whenever I have completed my question, please make a small pause so that the translation can come through. Now when this organization was completed, it was submitted to your in the interrogation.
A. Yes, in connection with Herr Kreis and Nerr Koeberlein, Inconstructed it.
Q. Did you yourself put the Department V-I, Budget, into this chart?
A. Yes. I still can recall how the organization was in general, V-I, V-II, V-III, V-IV, and V-V.
Q. You know that the Department V-I dealt with budgetary matters?
A. Yes.
Q. And you have just told me that the subdivision, for example, the box where Kaindl is mentioned, that you knew that organization from hearsay?
A. Yes, occasionally, I would always have something to do with one or the other of the departments, maybe in comradely manner. Then on the office dorrs there were signs, and, of course, I was able to observe these things in passing, but that is why it is easy for me to reconstruct this organizational chart.
Q. During your activity in the WVHA did you know what the individual departments were working on? I am now deferring to what we would have within the Budgetary Department.
A. No, I don't know that, amongst the sub-division in the WVHA. I only know in particular Office Group C. The other office groups I only know so slightly that I can't make any statements about them.
Q. However, in the Group VI you added more precisely, small a, SS Vorfuegungstruppe Moser; small b, the Death Head units in concentration camps Kaindl, and c, the General SS, Burger. Did you know that from your own knowledge, or did somebody tell you about that?
A. Of Moser and Kaindl I knew that from my own knowledge of Burger I did not - I believe because he himself looked at this chart before he himself added it, I did add in writing. That becomes ecident from the hand writing. However, I believe I do not know the name any more with regard to the SS.
Q. This organizational chart bears the title, "From 1936 to 1938." Therefore, it must have been in effect for three years continuously. Is that correct?
A. Yes, for the most part.
Q. When did Kaindl enter the inspectorate of the concentration camps?
A. I cannot give you the precise date. I believe it was when the inspectorate of the concentration camps was established. As far as I can recall that must have been in 1937.
Q. 1937? The chart however, goes on to 1938 and Kaindl is still listed.
A. Well, these are the directives of the Main Department. I don't know just when they left the office and when their position was transferred to somebody else. It just happened that the name of Kaindl was known to me. Just who worked on these matters later on I don't know.
Q. What kind of detail work went on?
A. I don't know what he did in detail, but he worked on detail matters.
Q. Witness, I am now going to put to you an affidavit which has been given by Moser, who has also been mentioned on this affidavit. I am now going to ask you a few questions about it in detail. In an affidavit Moser has stated--
Your Honor, this affidavit has not been submitted by the prosecution, nor has it been so far submitted by the defense. I have it in my Document Book No. 2. I am only going to use it now in order to ask several questions of the witness.
Moser has said the following:
"After the organizational chart was put before him, on the 1st of July 1936, I came into the administrative office of the SS. As far as I can recall the Main Department V-I, Budget, was organized in the following manner: There the budget of the General-SS was handled. This was the SS Verfuegungstruppe and the Death Head units. The budget of the Armed SS was dealt with by Kaindl. For the time being I was his assistant.
Approximately in August or September 1936 Kaindl was transferred to Berlin, to the inspectorate of the concentration camps, the department of Eicke. There he handled all the administrative matters of the concentration camps and the Death Head units. Whether Kaindl before he left the administrative office of the SS had already had something to do with the concentration camps I cannot say any more today."
Later on, in the same affidavit he goes on to say:
"The organizational chart NO-4123"--that is a chart which you compiled in part -- "is incorrect insofar as it refers to the time from 1936 to 1939. Kaindl, who has been mentioned in V-I-B- had, I have already mentioned, left already in August or September 1936 that part of his tasks. He left the office the, only the matters pertaining to the Verfuegungstruppe were taken over by me. As far as I know already prior to 1936 the budgetary matters for the concentration camps were dealt with on the Amtsrat Piefke in the inspectorate of the concentration camps."
Witness, did you have such close insight into the organization and department V-I that you can make any statement about this affidavit of Moser? Can you state anything from your own recollection?
A. I know that Kaindl worked in the budgetary section of the budgetary department, and that Moser worked there. Just what fields they worked in detail I don't know. I only know that they received some recognition for their work with regard to the budget of special task groups and that Kaindl was later transferred to the inspectorate of the concentration camps.
Q. In the organizational chart which you also helped to compile it is stated at the heading "Chief Pohl and the Deputy Frank." Do you have any precise information about that? Do you know whether Pohl at that time actually had a deputy who deputized for him in all mattes? Or only a staff officer especially during the time of 1938. I don't believe that he deputized in all fundamental questions, but in business matters. Frank, on a temporary basis at least, was his deputy. However, not in fundamental decisions but only in the execution of business matters.
Q. You have just stated that Frank was a staff officer.
A. Yes, I know that exactly. That was in June 1938.
Q. The staff officer of Pohl had a completely different name, I believe?
A. Yes. In any case he was located in the ante-room of Pohl and he took care of staff discussions. What his title was I don't know. But it was not Frank. -- Oh yes, it was Frank. He was located in the ante Chamber of Pohl. He was the manager of the ante chamber.
Q. And you were in the administrative office of the SS for a long period of time. Do you know how it was organized?
A. Yes, many changer were made.
Q. Who was usually located in the ante-chamber?
A. Usually a woman, or people who are not very important in any case.
Q. What rank did Frank have at the time?
A. I believe that Frank at the time was already Standartenfuehrer. His predecessor already also had the same rank. He was adjutant. I can remember Fulner, who was Hauptsturmfuehrer. His successor was -- I can't recall the name at the moment. However, later on when he left Frank took his place. I cannot recall the name at the moment. However, I believe he was an Obersturmbannfuehrer.
Q. And Frank was Chief of Department V-1, Budget?
A. Whether he still held that position at the time I cannot remember exactly. I cannot remember the time.
Q. You are referring to a period in 1939.
A. Yes; I cannot say that he was still in the ante-chamber of Pohl, and at the same time he was in charge of budgetary departments. I don't think so. However, I cannot say it for certain.
Q. Witness, in your affidavit under paragraph 4 on the first page you have made the following statement:
"The first economic enterprises were located in the concentration camp Dachau, and they were subordinated to the SS administration of that time. The SS economic enterprises at that time comprised the carpenter work shops, the locksmith work shops, and the shoemakers work shops, and the manager of these SS economic enterprises was the then Untersturmfuehrer August Frank. These economic enterprises which culminated in huge SS concern of Office Group W of the WVHA."
Now, were you able to observe the development of these economic enterprises, precisely?
A. I had nothing to do with economic enterprises in the sense. And the construction measures they carried out on their own. There were economic enterprises in all the concentration camps and from this I saw that a huge organization developed, but I myself in these W enterprises never had anything to do with the construction measures. It was an exception when occasionally the construction group had to carry out some construction work in the economic enterprises.
Q. However, in your affidavit you have made some connection between the original camp work shops at Dachau and the so-called big SS concerns.
A. They were not workshops in the camps but they were SS economic enterprises.
Q. And what was manufactured there?
A. I cannot give you any details about it. They had wall closets, and things of that sort, About the carpenter shops and the locksmith shops I am not very well informed, and I guess the shoemakers shops made shoes.
I only know they were subordinated to the administrative office. Frank at that time was probably not yet an Untersturmfuehrer. I believe he was promoted to the rank in November. Then he was transferred out of Dachau and sent to Munich. He was by Hauptsturmfuehrer -
Q. Witness, do you know just what the inside organization ***** concentration camps?
A. I don't know anything about the organization. I only know something about the political department. Here they had criminal commissioners, and so on. They were civilians.
Q. Do you know that the concentration camps, like every internment camp today, had workshops within the camps so the inmates could make their own requirements?
A. Yes.
Q. And for whom did these workshops work, which you mention here?
A. It is quite possible that at the same time they worked for the camp. However, I know that they manufactured certain closets and carpenters' products. Just what was does with them I don't know