Otherwise, I wouldn't remember any details. If I hadn't been cursing him all the time I wouldn't remember any details.
BY DR. MAYER:
Q Can you tell Us whether Kiefer had already left when the bombing raid on the WVHA was made?
AAs far as I remember that attack was made at the beginning of March. He must have left Berlin at that time, yes. He must have been at the Bergbau by that time.
DR. MAYER: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: We didn't understand why you were so angry at Kiefer.
THE WITNESS: The Berghaus only had ten rooms, and there were many people who wanted to go there. When I sent somebody to the Berghaus and he then changed his plans, I had to vacate a room for him for a different date. That meant that my plans would be changed again and again. That was why I was very angry with him.
THE PRESIDENT: Nothing very serious?
THE WITNESS: No, no. I have forgiven him in the meantime.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any cross-examination by other defense counsel?
(No response.)
THE PRESIDENT: If not, after the recess the Prosecutor may crossexamine.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: All persons will please take their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal requests that as many Defense Counsel can be present tomorrow morning at the opening of court at which time we will take up the procedure on the closing arguments, that is, the order in which the arguments will be made.
We propose to set up the plan tomorrow morning which will govern the closing arguments; That is, who will argue first, and so on. If you would be good enough to mention to your fellow counsel so that they will be here in the morning, if possible.
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q. Witness, toward the end of the testimony on direct examination, you stated that the defendant Frank had interceded for you, for your sister. I would like to ask you how well did you know the defendant Frank?
A. I did not know Frank very well. Outside of occasional and very rare discussions, I did not have any personal relationship with him. At that time he had already left the WVHA, and he was the administrative chief of the Regular Police.
THE PRESIDENT: Let me interrupt just a second. Dr. Fichte. (Summons Dr. Fichte before bench.)
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q. Isn't it true, witness, that the defendant Frank was the deputy Chief of the WVHA in the year 1943? At that time you were also Chief of W-8 in the WVHA.
A. That applies, as far as I can recall, up to approximately July or August of 1943. I can't give you the exact date any more, but at that time Frank left the WVHA and was transferred to the Regular Police.
Q. Yes, the point I am simply attempting to establish here is the fact that both you and he served in the WVHA at the same period of time; in other words simultaneously. In other words, you were the Chief of W-8 while he was Deputy Chief of the WVHA.
That is true, is it not?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. You know that the defendant frank was also chief of Amtsgruppe A, did you not?
A. As long as he was in the WVHA this applies, as far as I can recall.
Q. Did you -- First let me ask you this. How frequently did you see the defendant frank during the time you served in the WVHA?
A. I can't possibly give you that figure. I might have seen him occasionally at some place or other on the staircase or so. I might have talked to him occasionally. However, I can't tell you exactly when and where.
Q. Did you have any association whatsoever with him concerning the monies from the Reinhardt Fund?
A. No.
Q. He was the chief financial man in the WVHA, and from the testimony you have given you appear to have handled all the finances concerned with you office. It would seem likely that you had spoken to him on this matter. Are you certain that you never spoke to him on matters concerned with the Reinhardt Fund?
A. It is correct that, as far as I can recall, I had a conversation once with frank. However, we never discussed the Reinhardt Fund. On one occasion I received a loan from Party funds for the Wewelsburg, and that is also shown in my monthly report. And it is possible that in this connection I had a discussion with Frank.
Q. But there were no discussions beyond that?
A. It is impossible for me today to recall every word that I spoke during all these years. However, I cannot recall having had any other important discussions with him.
Q. Had you ever heard of the Reinhardt Fund during your term of office as Chief of Office W-8?
A. No, I can't recall ever having heard the designation "Reinhardt Fund".
Q. Did you have any contacts or relations with any of the other defendants who are now In the dock, with the exception of the defendant Pohl?
A. Yes, certainly; all of us worked in the same office, in the same agency. We would see each other in the halls or we would sometimes meet while we were having lunch. However, here we only had very brief contact with each other, sometimes we had come official matters to discuss. This extended over a number of years.
Q. I see. You would see the defendants who are now here and you would discuss whatever matters there was in relation with the administration of the WVHA. In other words, you got together, and talked together about official matters?
A. Could you repeat that please.
Q. I say that -- rather -- it is a fact then that during your tenure of office as Chief of Office 8 you saw all of the defendants who are now here in the dock; during these times you chatted with them concerning matters relative to the administration of the WVHA. That is true, is it not?
A. That is a very difficult and long Question. First of all, I have to take this question apart in order to be able to answer it accurately. First of all, I want to state that I believe that I have understood you to say that for ten years I had been chief of Office "W-8" I was the chief of Office W-8, as fur as I can recall, from the establishment of the WVHA on the first of February, 1942, until the first of October, 1944. I don't believe that this amounts to Quite ten years. And, if I may come back to my notes, then you allege that I talked to all the defendants in the WVHA -
Q. One moment, witness; let us correct one point. I believe the interpreter misunderstood me. I did not say "ten year", but I said "tenure of office as Chief of W-8". But proceed.
A. During my time in office, I did not see all the defendants either. For the first time I have seen Sommer and Pook here. I did know the other defendants personally. May I now come to the next point in your question. I don't precisely recall it anymore, but I believe you asked me whether all the defendants had anything to do with the administration of the Office W-8 or something of that sort.
Q. I think we can just drop the question. I had wanted to affirm the fact that you spoke to these people on matters concerned with the administration of the WVHA and you did, did you not?
A. About matters which concerned the administration of the WVHA? I may have talked with them. However, I did not discuss all the matters but I would discuss perhaps with one or the other person part of a special field, and I did not discuss administration questions with everybody either. To some of them I would only say "Good Morning," or "How are you" and so on.
Q. That is sufficient. Now, Witness, I would like to refer back to the very first part of your direct examination and direct your attention to the answers which you gave in reply to your counsel's questions concerning the Party Program. I believe you had declared that you had familiarized yourself with this program?
A. Yes.
Q. And at that time you realized, did you not, that the Program stated that the Jews were not qualified to be German citizens?
A. As far as I can recall, the Party Program stated that the Jes should be considered as being guests of the German people.
Q. No, I believe it was put a little more strongly. I have a wuotation here from the record of the Decision of the International Military Tribunal and there is set out part of Point 4 of the Party Program and it declared only a member of the rade can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently, no Jew can be a member of the race. I believe that is the way that particular provision reads.
A. Yes, I believe it is similar to that. I believe the translation from the English to the German is not quite clear, because this issued order you have read has been translated into English and it has to be re-interpreted back into German.
Q. But it sounds correct, does it not?
A Yes, I assume that, yes.
Q. The platform also provides that Jews should be treated as foreigners and not be permitted to hold office, and you were familiar with that provision, also, were you not?
A. Well, one couldn't simply that assumption at all from that alone. Furthermore, I have already stated that the Party program I believe it was in 1918 or 1919, when the Party was founded had been set up by Feder and that this Party Program now seemed to have surpassed by the propaganda. As I have also stated the Party Program contained many points which made sense and others which did not. Therefore, one could not interpret this Program literally.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Well, witness, you know that the National Socialist Program was anti-Semitic, don't you?
A. I did not consider it to be purely anti-Semitic, but I considered it to mean that overwhelming influence which the Jews appeared to have in Germany should be limited to a percentage which amounted to their number in the population. That was the official propaganda at the time. I know that a similar regulation existed in Poland at the time. The General Physician Von Rouppert, I believe told me at the time, for example, that only a certain quota of Jews was admitted to the universities.
Q. Did you have the idea that the Nationalist Socialist Program permitted any representation to the Jews? You do know that they were not to be citizens, don't you?
A From the propaganda at the time, I can recall that this program was not to be carried out in all its severity.
The fact was that Feder, the author of the program had already left the public life as an unknown individual.
Q. Well, why don't you start with the program of Hitler. Was it in 1921? What do you know about that program?
A. I don't know what Your Honor is referring to right now.
Q. Well, when was the affair in Munich? Wasn't that in 1921 -- in '23? You never heard of it?
A. Oh, naturally, but I don't know for the moment whether it was 1921 or 1923. I believe it was 1923.
Q. All right, assume that it is 1923. What platform was announced at that time, what Party platform?
A. The platform actually was not changed at all, but through the propaganda we were told that this platform was not to be carried out in its original form. It was to be flexible.
Q. Well, how are you going to make a provision that says that no Jew can be a citizen, how can you make that flexible?
A. Your Honor, according to the propaganda at that time we could assume that this rule would be into be carried out correctly either--that is to say literally, as far as for instance the other directive regarding the breaking of the Rule Interest.
Q. Breaking of the Rule of Interest? What do you mean by that?
A. The Party Program contained one point which said that the bondage of the interest was to be broken. These were entirely wrong economic ideas which this author of the Party program Feder had maintained. It was clear that this point could not be carried out in accordance with the Party Platform. It meant that all interest was to be abolished.
Q. Well, you mean that that rule was relaxed? It wasn't enforced?
A. Yes, it was not enforced. It was clear that it couldn't be enforced.
Q. The rule which said that no Jew should be a citizen and should be barred from public offices, that wasn't relaxed, was it? That was enforced right up to the hilt, to the limit?
A. Unfortunately, it has been carried out. However, one could not see that from the platform alone, at the time for the reasons which I have just set forth.
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q. Witness, can you tell me whether or not in accordance with this program, can you tell me whether the Jews were prohibited from publishing German newspapers? That was a Party Program. Was that carried out?
A. Excuse me please, I didn't hear your question just now.
(The interpreter repeated the question)
A. (Continued) I can't tell you that, I am not informed about that at all.
Q. You were familiar, were you not, with Streidher's newspaper which disseminated hatred for the Jews. That was speaking for the Party, wasn't it? That was an organ of the Party, was it not?
A. It was not an official publication of the Party, as far as I know. The official paper of the Party was only the so-called "Voelkische Beobachter " and of that a certain edition."The Stuermer" As far as I know,it was a newspaper which gave Streicher's personal views.
Q. But it did have the blessings of the Nazi Party, did it not?
A. What was that?
Q. It did have the blessings of the Nazi Party, did it not?
A. No, I don't think so. I even believe that it was prohibited on various occasions. However, residents of Nurnberg are better informed about that than I am, because in Westphalia not many people would read this journal. We had a better taste there.
Aug-14-A-MJ-23-1-Arminger (Garand)
Q. You stated definitely that the "Stuermer" published was prohibited at one time? You state that definitely?
A. I can't say that with certainty. I am not precisely informed about these matters. However, I believe I did hear it.
Q. Upon the seizure of power by the Nazis you were aware, were you not, that the program against the Jews was intensified?
A. I couldn't say that. Actually, it wasn't clear to me at all.
Q. You have described events which took place in November of 1938. Those particular events coincided with the Nazi seizure of power, did they not?
A. I looked at these incidents as I might say a riot caused by the mob. The mob always likes to do some pilfering and pillaging.
Q. There was no instigation whatsoever by the Nazi Party or by the SS?
A. I stated that at the time I heard secretly that Goebbels was alleged to have instigated the whole matter. However, I did not know --- it did not come to my knowledge that the SS had officially participated in this program.
Q. But it was general knowledge, was it not, that the SS had instigated these things and was in the back of it, supported it?
A. Oh, no.
Q. We have heard testimony in this court concerning the rounding up of the Jews and their being lead through the streets and it was stated then that anyone who lived, resided, in Berlin, could have seen these things. Did you witness any of these incidents yourself?
A. Never. I was extraordinarily surprised about this testimony.
Q. Following the demonstration against the Jews in 1938, do you remember any other incidents of the same nature that took place?
A. After 1938?
Q. Yes.
A. I can't think of any at the moment.
Q. How about instances before 1938?
A. In my opinion, there were no excesses either before 1938 against the Jews.
Q. The only excess you know of took place in 1938?
A. I have found out now that horrible things happened during the war also. However, during the course of the war, I didn't find out anything at all about these things.
Q. Had you ever heard of the pamphlet entitled, "The SS as an Anti-Bolshevist Fighting Organization"?
A. I can't recall having seen it.
Q. In this particular publication, the purpose of the SS was stated to be the elimination of the possibility that Germany would over again be the meeting place of Jewish Bolshevist sub-humans and that the SS without pity was to exterminate the Jews. I am asking you again, had you ever read it or have you ever heard about it? Did you know that such a publication existed?
A. Could you please repeat the question once more?
Q. Did you ever have any knowledge of the pamphlet entitled "The SS as an Anti-Bolshevist Fighting Organization"?
A. I cannot recall having seen it.
Q. Can you give me the names of some SS publications which contained the policies to be carried out by that organization?
A. There was the newspaper, the so-called "Schwarze Korps" which, however, was not always the official mouth pieve of Himmler but, as far as I know, very often contained the personal views of the publishers.
Then I believe we had some kind of training journals.
Q. You joined the SS in April, 1933, did you not?
A. Either on the 1st of April, or the 1st of May. I can't recall the precise date.
Q. I believe the record shows that you joined the SS in April, 1933, Now what was your service number, do you know?
A. In April, it is a possibility. My membership number was, as the interrogator told me here was 114,400---something. I can't recall it exactly, and I believe that this is correct.
Q. It is 114,488, the records show. You joined the NSDAP in May of the same year, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And your Party number there was 2,167516. Does that sound right to you?
A. Two million I can still remember. The rest of it I don't know any more.
Q. I would like to ask you, witness, if you ever heard of any of Himmler's public speeches?
A. Himmler spoke only very rarely. I myself did not listen to such a speech personally.
Q. Were you familiar with "The organization of the Nazi Party?"
A. I don't know the book.
Q. That particular publication sets out the objects of the SS. Among one of the objects is the waging of war-
A. Excuse me. I can't hear the translation.
Q. I am referring to the publication entitled "The organization of the Nazi Party," and I have stated that one of the ob jects as set out in this publication was the waging of war against what was considered the State's most dangerous enemies.
Among these enemies were the Jews and political clergymen. Did you have any knowledge of that aim of the SS?
A. I have already stated that up to date I have never seen this organization Book of the Party.
Q. I would like to ask you one more question concerning official publications of the SS. I would like to know whether you have heard of the publication entitled "The SS Handbook"?
A. Yes, there was such a handbook, as far as I can recall. I have already previously mentioned that some literature was circulated.
Q. This particular publication, "The SS Handbook" was one which was given general currency amongst the members of the SS, was it not?
A. One couldn't say that. Occasionally we did get one of these book into our hands; however, that circulation never took place systematically.
Q. There is nothing on this particular book which states that circulation of it was restricted in any way. So I believe I can assume that it was for general circulation among the SS.
A. That is quite possible.
Q. I would like to hand this book to you and tell me whether you are familiar with this publication, and I would like to offer it -- rather, excuse me, I would like to present it at this time and number it for reference, if the court please, for introduction at a later date, and the reference number I shall give to it is 631. Had you ever seen such a publication before as that?
A. I did see these training manuals once in a while. Whether it was this one or another one which got into my hands once, I can't tell you.
Q. Would you please open it? First of all, this book sets out the ideas of the SS. I would like you to open it to the page which is marked with a paper and I request that you read. There is a small bit of paper in there.
A. Do you happen to know the number of the page?
DR. FROESCHMANN (Attorney for the Defendant Mummenthey) May it please the Tribunal, before I leave the court room, I would like to thank the President of this court for the announcement which the Tribunal has made. I shall see to it that my colleagues shall look into the question so that they will be prepared to discuss it.
Q. (By Mr. Higgins) Would you please read for the Tribunal the paragraph which is marked in red pencil?
A. In the meantime I must have lost it again. It is in black pencil. Furthermore, there was only a small hole in the page.
Q. Would you please read the part that is marked?
A This is an excerpt of a letter of an SS Untersturmfuehrer who died during the campaign in the East, with the heading: "The heart with a steel ring." Without knowing the connection at the moment I shall read:
"Twenty-four hours later, and again night has come, after a day which has been pregnant with many incidents. I had to conclude my work today with an execution. I received the order to shoot two Red Army men together with three other soldiers, so that they will not be able to be of any danger to us. Like animals completely deteriorated they are handed over to me. I gave each of them a spade, and then they began with digging their own graves. I am quieted down. -
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I would like to know what this book is all about. Here he is reading an excerpt from a book which means nothing to me. What is the book? What is it purported to be? What is the use of it? What is it supposed to be connected with?
MR. HIGGINS: This book is entitled "Handbook of the SS" and the particular excerpt that the witness Klein is reading now is a quotation from a letter of an SS Untersturmfuehrer. I believe it is to his wife.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: What has this defendant got to do with that particular letter? Does he know the man who wrote the letter?
MR. HIGGINS: No, he doesn't, Your Honor. But the point is that that particular handbook is a publication which was in general circulation throughout the SS, and the defendant Klein has consistently, throughout his testimony, denied the fact that he had any idea, of the ideas - rather, the purposes of the SS and its activities as an inhumane organization, and this letter -
WITNESS: May I state something in this connection? Apparently here we have a description of the execution of a court martial verdict, and that in the East. It is well know that the Waffen-SS in the East, and at other places also, was always under the orders of the Army.
That the war is a terrible catastrophe, we don't need to emphasize here. That in the course of a war court martial verdicts are given is nothing unusual either. This is something very sad. But it seems to be of necessity --
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Witness, are you familiar with that book?
WITNESS: I am reading it now for the first time.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Did you ever see that particular book before?
WITNESS: No.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Are you familiar with the publication itself? I presume this is one of a series of books. Are you familiar with the publication?
WITNESS: I did see several books from this particular series of publication.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You have?
WITNESS: Occasionally I would look at one or the other.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Did you ever read that particular book?
WITNESS: No.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Were you as a member of the SS charged with the knowledge of the contents of that publication? Were you required to read it?
WITNESS: No.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Are you familiar with this passage that is mentioned in the book?
WITNESS: No.
MR. HIGGINS: Do you wish the defendant to continue to read it, Your Honor. If not, - it does how - May we permit the defendant to continue reading? It is just a few more sentences, I believe.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, let him finish it.
WITNESS (Continuing): "I lose my nervousness by smoking a cigarette. There is no sound. The Russians are emotionless, like animals. It is better that they have become like animals during the past few years.
They are not begging for their lives. They do not laugh and do not cry. They just dig their graves. Three guns are pointed at them. Then they are ready. They are to stand in their graves, but one of them turns around and tries to escape. He succeeds in getting away for 20 yards, then he falls. The other one stands without emotion. Then he goes into his grave, and he also falls. Two minutes later good mother earth has covered everything. We light up a new cigarette. I ask myself --"
MR. HIGGINS: That is sufficient, witness.
WITNESS (Continuing): "--- have we gone back to being soldiers of the medieval ages. Have we lost all fears, of death."
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q Defendant, I would like to leave the subject of publications of the SS at this time and ask you whether or not you were familiar with the Roehm affair.
A I have in detail stated my knowledge of the Roehm affair. Do you want me to repeat what I have already said?
Q I would like to ask several specific questions on this matter. Was it not in connection with this putsch that you suffered a fractured skull? Wasn't there a direct connection between the putsch and this fracture?
A No.
Q When was the Roehm putsch carried out?
A The Roehm putsch took place on the 20th, or the 30th of June -I believe it was June 1934.
Q And when did you suffer the fractured skull?
A I believe this was three or four days later, that I had the motor accident.
Q And the skull fracture was not in connection with the Roehm putsch?
AAt the time I was still very tired as a result of the Roehm putsch, and I did thus not pay enough attention when I had the accident, which I would have paid normally.
It is quite possible that it wasn't as much as three or four days later, but it may have happened one or two days later. Insofar the putsch actually was the reason for my accident because my general attention was distracted at the time. In the night from Saturday to Sunday, as far as I can recall, we had to be on the alert, and I believe on Monday night I returned home. We were on the alert for two days before.
Q You were simply alerted, and you did not take any active participation in it?
A I have stated that I was called to Bielefeld for the roll call, and there we were kept on the alert. We stayed at a restaurant. I believe after two days we were able to return home.
Q Did the particular putsch lower your estimation of the SS; after all, this was a violent blood bath, was it not? -- the extermination of the considerable portion of the SA?
A What was it?
Q I say, did this -
A The SA consisted of 8 million members and the larger part had been exterminated? Maybe the translation is wrong. Can you please repeat the question?
Q Did your opinion of the idealistic pursuits of the SS decline after you had learned of the extermination of the high members, the higher officials of the SA? It was quite a purge, was it not?
AAs far as I can recall at the time, not very many executions were announces. At the time I did not have any doubts that the executions which took place actually were an emergency act. This opinion of mine was supported by the fact that also the old Reich President von Hindenburg, as far as I can recall, did not object to these executions and to the entire occasion. Apparently this was an emergency step which had to be taken according to the way I looked at it at the time.
Q When did you first learn of the true nature of this occasion?
A I heard - up to date I have not as yet, after the collapse received a very detailed description of the entire matter. I am actually not informed even today about the things which are alleged to have happened there. I only heard by rumors - for example, here, from the examination of the witness Winkler, that Hitler had also executed people who personally were not connected with this I putsch at all.
Q Well, I would like to turn to another subject. I would like to turn to another subject. I would like to ask you whether or not you were at one time associated with the Nordland Publishing Society.
A Yes. The matter was as follows: I have already stated that in February 1939 I was put at the disposal of several firms under Galke as a legal consultant. And one of these firms was the Nordland Publishing House.
Q Did your position in that organization continue - over what period of time were you representing that organization?
A I never actually represented this publishing house, in practice. My connection with this publishing house terminated completely when the main department for special tasks was established in 1940.
Q Were you ever associated with the Sudeten Spring enterprise?
A May I add that as far as I can recall, Galke at the time intended that in the firm Nordland and others I was to get used to the work there. This was not possible for the time being because I lacked the expert knowledge as a business men, and because I lacked the practical economic requirements. For example, publishing matters are extremely difficult, and I believe that Galke had me even registered in the Nordland Publishing House as a procurist. In the case of the Sudeten, the situation was similar.
Q How about the Anton Leubel enterprise? Were you ever connected with that?