THE PRESIDENT: Wait just a minute, please. The Tribunal is very anxious that the Witness Schwarz, who has executed two affidavits involving this defendant be produced here so that we may see him and perhaps ask some questions on behalf of the Tribunal. Now the witness is to be produced, not as a witness for the defense, or the prosecution, but on behalf of the Tribunal, and will the prosecution see that this request is implemented and that Schwarz before the end of the proof is submitted as a witness. He is in Dachau, I believe.
MR. HIGGINS: Yes, he is, Your Honor. We will take care of it.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, we will recess until two o'clock.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1400 hours.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 14 Aug 47)
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats please.
The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. BERGOLD: May I continue?
HORST KLEIN - Resumed.
DIRECT EXAMINATION -Continued.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q: Witness, what did you know about the so-called evacuation of Jews?
A: Of a large-scale evacuation scheme I heard nothing. At the wish of Dr. Bresser, a friend of our family, on the occasion of a Jew called Kohn who was deported and who had been an employee of Dr. Bresser's factory -- at Dr. Bresser's wish I made inquiries and in the summer of 1942 I heard that Jews would be interned temporarily. The reason was supposed to be that on account of their relations with foreign countries one was afraid they would engage in sabotage and espionage, and, understandably, they were hostile to the regime. One could not keep everybody under supervision. Those were the reasons for interning them during the war. Their treatment was supposed to be good. This was supposed to be a measure which very state was adopting against aliens, that is to say, against aliens and elements hostile to the state.
Q: Did you personally see Jews being deported in larger numbers?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: Is it correct that at the request of Dr. Bresser you also made inquiries about a camp at Theresienstadt?
A: In 1942, when I was on an official trip to the Protectorate, I made inquiries about the internment camp at Theresienstadt; and at the time I did not hear that such a camp was in existence.
That information I passed on to Dr. Bresser and my relatives. In the autumn of 1943, by accident I heard that there was an internment camp at Theresienstadt.
Q: We heard from your sister that in the summer of 1943 you inquired about the treatment meted out to Jews at internment camps because Bresser by way of rumors had heard that there was a high mortality rate. What can you tell us about that?
A: Doctor, I have already described to you that in the summer of 1943 I asked Hauptsturmfuehrer Beer who was adjutant of Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, about the matter. He was very negative in the way he treated me and told me that the treatment was absolutely correct, and added that obviously I had fallen victim to enemy propaganda and that I had better spend less time listening to foreign radio stations.
Q: How was it you hit on the idea of approaching Beer?
A: I assumed that at Pohl's office reports would arrive from many quarters, and that he would also receive secret situation reports so that his adjutant perhaps might have insight into matters which were outside the sphere of the WVHA.
Q: That information that you received from Beer - did you think it was the truth?
A: Yes, I had no reason to doubt that information.
Q: When you made inquiries earlier, did you ever hear who ordered the internments?
A: No. I could not obtain any information about that. I discussed the matter with my father, too. He, too, could not find out what was happening. We supposed that military intelligence offices were ordering the internment, and perhaps also the Gestapo, but we could not find out.
Q: Did you ever hear anything about gassing and mass extermination of Jews?
A: No.
Q: Not even by rumor?
A: No, not through rumors either.
Q: Now tell me, in the course of the war didn't you begin to wonder - to have doubts - about the regime?
A: Yes.
Q: How did you come to wonder, to have doubts?
A: Gradually I can to the conviction that the system was wrong: On the one hand because of what my father told me, and what older friends of mine told me, Dr. Bresser, my brother-in-law, and also due to my own observations.
Q: What was it your father told you; did he tell you about atrocities, cruelties, or what was it?
A: No, I didn't hear anything about atrocities from my father; but my father, every time he visited me, gave me new examples to prove to me that orderly administrative work on account of the dualism between administration and Party was becoming impossible. He told me again and again about interference on the part of the political organizations, the Corps of Political Leadership, even the Ministry, were powerless against them. The competence of the administration was more and more broken up by the interference from the Party. In the Party there was also a lack of experts, and instead of employing experts they employed a staff which was not properly qualified. My father told me again and again "that can't come to a good end."
Q: What did you hear from Dr. Bresser? Apparently you talked with him quite frequently.
A: Dr. Bresser was the owner of a factory in Wiedenbrueck. He was constantly fighting against the Labor Front and the Kreisleadership.
He told us about complete confusion in the organization of trade economy. Besides, he had been abroad for a long time. He had been to the United States among other countries. He warned everybody against underestimating the foreign countries.
Q: And your brother-in-law, who after all was an officer, in what way did he warn you?
A: My brother-in-law told me about his observations observations he had made in the Russian campaign. He thought that that campaign was being carried out with a dangerous military dilettantism. He was very indignant as a former active guards officer about the dishonorable treatment of officers on the part of Hitler. I frequently discussed with him the case of Count Sponeck, General Count Sponeck, who for a long time was billeted with my parents and whose personal acquaintance I made. Count Sponeck had carried out a retreat movement which had been necessary for military reasons and from the rank of a General he was degraded to the rank of a private and he was thrown out of the army. My brother-in-law said that it could not come to a good end if a profession which considered honor its highest aim, such as the Officer Corps, if such a body of people were being treated in a dishonorable way.
Q: What were your own observations?
A: I saw that the suppression of free opinion, and the compulsion which was exercised in all spheres of life, met with more and more resistance - caused more and more resistance; I saw that this new resistance again made necessary more supervision, and that a vicious circle had been established. Furthermore, in my practical work for my country I saw that great confusion was existing among the authorities, the official agencies. In the case of many questions nobody knew who was competent to deal with them.
In various fields of work I was given contradictory orders. My work having been based on an orderly plan - now had to go by improvisations from one day to the other.
Q: Now, will you tell us whether one of your sad experiences was also the experience you met in the case of Frl. GRENZ. I am referring to the cases of racial violation.
A: Yes, I gained the conviction that in a system where one had to risk one's life, one had to play two parts - one had to be "false" in order to help decency and humanity to victory.
Q: Did you ever think about it as to what you might do against the system, as to how you might fight against the system?
A I frequently thought about it as to what one could do. Open opposition seemed impossible to me. That would have been suicide, which would have helped nobody. Besides, I had a family. I never discovered one of the resistance movements; they were too secret. I could only work within the framework of my opportunities. It was impossible for me to leave the SS. For the rest, the thought never occurred to me to look upon the SS as the root of all evil. The political power was in the hands of the political organization and not in the hands of the SS. After the arrest of my sister, my hands were completely tied.
Q You've just said that you are of the opinion that the SS was not the root of all evil. Why were you of the opinion that the political organization had the main power and therefore was guilty above all others? Can you give us an example to explain your opinion why the SS was completely subordinated to the political organization?
A I can give an illuminating example to the Tribunal to explain these circumstances. In the late summer of 1944, a reserve SS regiment suffered eighty casualties during an air-raid. The whole regiment appeared on parade for the funeral in the cemetery. As the cemetery was in the neighborhood I also attended the funeral. There were rain and a thunderstorm and all the persons who had come to attend the funeral got wet through. For a whole hour the regiment and the relatives stood in the rain waiting for the district leader, the Kreisleiter. At the end of an hour a large limousine drove up; and, quite dry, the adjutant of the Kreisleiter got out and told the regimental commander that the district leader had ordered that the funeral was not to take place then but that it would take place the next morning at 9'00 o'clock. The regimental commander pointed at the relatives, who didn't know where to stay the night and who were intending to go home for the night. The adjutant then told him, "The political leadership is the sole arbiter of the sovereignty of the movement; only the political leadership gives orders.
The order of the district leader is binding upon you." The SS Standartenfuehrer Kloth and the regimental commander were trembling with fury, but had to obey the orders of the Kreisleiter.
Q It was from such occurrences that you concluded that the political leadership solely had the political power?
A It appeared to me as if one could draw conclusions of that kind from such occurrences.
Q After the outbreak of the war, did you make attempts to get out of your office by entering the armed forces?
A Yes. By accident I was not called up to my regiment at the outbreak of the war, because I was still registered with the military commander Bielefeld as I didn't think my work in Berlin would be permanent. When my parents, whose address I had registered with the military district command, told me that I had been called up, the regiment had already left. Thereupon, in September, I registered voluntarily with the Luftgau commander at Muenster as a gunner. I was accepted. When I was in Muenster, my superior, Oberfuehrer Moeckel, made an application that I be given the status of an indispensable person, this without my knowing about his action. I was given the status of being indispensable and put under an obligation to work for the Pohl office. That so-called note from the armed forces was renewed again and again during the war.
In the autumn of 1939 or the spring of 1940 Obergruppenguehrer Pohl had ordered staff parade on the terrain at Lichterfelde. He told them that all applications for transfers and discharges even applications for transfers to the front, had been prohibited by him. He described all contravention of that order as an infringement of an official order and he threatened people who offended in that way with a concentration camp.
Q I am now coming to talk of the affair of your sister. I'd now like to hear from you as to when you heard of her arrest?
A In November 1943 my father told me that my sister had been arrested.
Q Did you at any time before hear that there was a possibility of proceedings being instituted against your sister?
A No.
Q What steps did you take to help your sister?
A First I called on the Gestapo office in Bielefeld. There I was told that the warrant for her arrest had been issued by the chief of the Gestapo, Gruppenfuehrer Mueller, in Berlin. Immediately I called on Gruppenfuehrer Mueller, whereupon he told me that proceedings had also been initiated against my brother-in-law. He forbade me to issue a warning to him. I gave Mueller a personal guarantee for my sister and brother-in-law. That was somewhat risky because I didn't know whether the Gestapo had entered into their files the fact that my brother-in-law had been a Free Mason; but, thank goodness, they hadn't done so yet at that time.
Mueller refused to be in any way more lenient towards my sister or my brother-in-law. I didn't know what to do and finally hit on the idea of asking Obergruppenfuehrer Frank for his help. I went to see him, and he promised me his help. From the human point of view he was very much upset by my distress; and I should like to use this opportunity to express my thanks to him. Frank then approached Mueller. That wasn't an easy thing for him to do, either. A decision was obtained from Himmler, Himmler ordering that my sister's case was not to come before the People's Court and he commuted the sentence to a concentration camp commitment. Mueller on principle refused to adopt the more lenient attitude towards my brother-in-law.
About the middle of January 1944 Mueller asked my father and myself to come to see him in Berlin. He told us about Himmler's decision. He also told us that my sister would without any doubt have been sentenced to death by the People's Court on the basis of the files of material against her.
Furthermore, he told us that each of us was to write a letter to me syster, telling her that great clemency had been exercised in her case.
Q May I just ask you to revert to another point? From your efforts one might gain the impression that you as a member of the SS had obtained special help; but is it not correct to say that the Kreisleiter the district leader Horn of Siebenbrueck, wished to prevent you from making efforts for your sister by threatening you with punishment?
A Yes. When Horn heard that my father had asked me to make efforts in the matter, he tried to get me out of all that by informing against me.
Q What did you hear from Mueller about the treatment that was going to be meted out to your sister at the concentration camp?
A Mueller told us that my sister was to receive special treatment. Allegedly, at the camp she was to do secretarial work and other light work.
Q You told us before that you did look upon the decision as being a favorable decision, didn't you?
A Yes. I was very pleased about that decision. The evening when I heard of that decision, my father and I brought up the best bottle which we had in the cellar and sat down together and drank it.
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO): Dr. Bergold, the phrase "special treatment" has in this trial,and the previous trial in which we sat, had a certain meaning. It is not used in that sense in this instance, is it? You mean here "especially favorable treatment"?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, that's quite correct. Your Honor, that is an ambiguous word because, after all, this treatment wasn't particularly good. We heard that from his sister herself. It wasn't that notorious "special treatment"; but, on the other hand, it wasn't particularly good treatment, either.
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO: Well, she's at least alive.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, yes, thank goodness, she is.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, you've just described to us how you received orders for you and your father to write a letter with certain contents to your sister. Did you draw any conclusions from that order? Did you draw any conclusions from the fact that particular orders were given you to write such a letter?
A Yes, I concluded from that my father and I, too, were under suspicion. Therefore, through a deception, on the same day I gained insight into my sister's files. I went to the RSHA. I told them there that I hand orders from Mueller to look at the files. I was wearing a leather coat, and it was very difficult to see my rank. The deception succeeded, and I did get hold of the files. I skipped through them and saw from the files that Himmler had my father and myself under suspicion and that my assumptions were correct. I felt very much better about my sister after I had looked at the files because I saw again that special treatment had been ordered for her.
Q Witness, considering that your inspection of the files was illegal, were you warned by anybody?
A Yes. Obergruppenfuehrer Frank shortly afterwards asked me to go to see him. He told me that my inspection of the files had been discovered by the Gestapo. Mueller was extremely agitated and had told him that my inspection of the files was tantamount to having inspected command matters and therefore constituted high treason. The Gestapo was a Reich agency and I as a member of the General SS had nothing to do with it.
Q Concerning the arrest of your sister and her transfer to a concentration camp, did you make a report about that to Herr Pohl, and, if so, why?
A Yes, I did. I thought I was under an obligation to do so as his subordinate.
Q Is it correct that in February 1944 your sister was sent to Ravensbrueck?
A Yes.
Q How did your father react to that fate of your sister?
A My father had a stroke on account of the excitement and died on the 18th of March 1944. When I returned from his funeral, I received a telegram telling me that my brother-in-law had committed suicide. Three days later I heard that Dr. Bresser, a friend of our family, had also been arrested by the Gestapo.
Q In view of that plethora of evil news, what did you think?
A I was desperate and told myself that now my own danger had become increased. I concluded that from the warning which I had received from Frank and next from a warning by Volk, who told me that Pohl had made rather unfavorable statements about me.
He was afraid even at that time that the Gestapo would take steps against me.
Q When was Dr. Bresser sentences do death?
A Dr. Bresser was sentenced to death by the People's Court in the summer of 1944.
Q At the beginning of August 1944 you again went to the Gestapo on behalf of your sister?
A Yes. To do my mother a favor, I wanted to do everything I could. I didn't meet Mueller himself; but I spoke to an Oberfuehrer. I didn't got his name at the time. It was an Oberfuehrer, which is a senior colonel. I gave my name to that Oberfuehrer and told him that I was coming to see him on behalf of my sister. He immediately took me to account in very severe tones, that again on account of the fact that in January I had inspected her files. He again told me that had been High Treason and that High Treason did not become less serious a case because I was a member of the General Ss.
Q Were you warned again in August 1944 in Berlin?
A I August, Herr Steuer, a clerk, came to see me and told me that he himself had been warned that maneuvres had been started against me. Steuer had been warned by an old acquaintance, who had told him that he had better quickly leave my office so that he himself did not get involved.
Q Steuer has testified about the same matter; and in reading out of his affidavit I submitted this matter to you. What happened at the beginning of September concerning your person?
A Pohl suddenly informed me that as from 1st October I'd be transferred to the front.
Q To what unit? As a member of the armed forces or the Waffen SS?
A I was to report to the personnel office of the WVHAto hear there where I was going to be sent. Apparently the wanted me for the Waffen SS.
Q What rank did you have in your military service with the ordinary armed forces?
A Yes, I was a lieutenant in the reserve.
Q What did you think when you suddenly received that information?
A I assumed that the Gestapo had demanded that I leave the office.
Q What steps did you take then?
A I asked that I be relieved of my post as manager of the Home's Association because I was afraid that after I had left the Gestapo would look at my books so as to get a pretext to liquidate me without attracting much attention
Q Were you promised that your books would be audited?
A I had to overcome the greatest of difficulties before I could got my books audited.
Q When were the books audited and what was your impression?
A It was at the end of September that the books were audited. I realized immediately that it was the aim of the auditors to gather incriminating material against me. I never set eyes on the auditing report.
Q How did you come to gather that the auditors wanted to collect incriminating evidence against you?
A That tendency in the auditing became evident to me when Obersharfuehrer Pflueger came to see mo about two hours after they had started auditing and told me that one of the auditors had asked him about my offenses and about what critical remarks I had made about Pohl.
Steuer also told me something similar at midday.
Q As to such a question from the auditor, did that have anything to do with the auditing of the books as such?
A I believe that had nothing to do with checking the affairs of a manager.
Q On the 1st of October did you report to Herr Pohl what had happened there?
A Yes, I did report to him. Pohl received me very ungraciously. He reproached me with defeatism and political unreliability. He indicated to me that my life was in danger. Then he charged me with details from the auditors' report and told me I was under arrest.
Q What conclusions did you draw from that attitude on his part?
A I assumed that Herr Pohl was no longer able to cover me in the face of the Gestapo nor to protect me against the Gestapo. I had to stay under house arrest in Berlin. Then, under guard, Oberfuehrer Salpeter took me to Kranichfeld to hand over business to him there. Pohl told me that after my business had been handed over I was to return to Berlin together with Salpeter and I was to report to the court officer to have SS proceedings carried out. He also said that a detachment of the Waffen SS, which was already being held in readiness, would then take me to a very dangerous spot on the front.
Q During the interrogation with the court officer of the WVHA what did you hear? You had to report there, didn't you?
A The court officer interrogated me and asked me about the auditing report again. I wasn't shown that report. Afterwards the court officer told me that the report was legally untenable and had been manipulated.
Q When the Defendant Baier was examined, charges from that report were not specified by this Court; and I'd like to put those charges to you. It said there, first, that you had been charges with advances and fares for trips not having been entered in the books in time; that no accounts had been settled in time. What was all that about?
AAs far as I can recollect, what had happened was this. In January 1944 the bookkeeping, because of the end of the year work for the Homes' Association, was overburdened. That work at the end of the year amounted to a tremendous bulk of work because all the Homes had to send their reports every month to the central office. During that period, advances had been paid out to myself and other officials for going on essential trips. We returned our accounts to the bookkeeping department when w'd return from the trip; but those accounts had to be countersigned and examined by the bookkeeping department.
On account of the fact that they were overburdened with work, there had been a delay so that these advances, so that accounts were settled for those advances only approximately at the end of February. Until then those advances were not covered. The auditor, Dr. Spettstoesser, when he audited the book half way through the year, when in 1944 the six-months balance sheet was made out, had already stated that was so. He drew my attention to the fact that he did not consider it right to have an advance for the fares for official trips. It would be better if I passed a check to the bookkeeping department, and had the money paid out to me by check. From that moment onwards he ordered that procedure should be adopted. That must have been at the beginning of June.
Q At the time when the books were audited in September all those accounts had been settled?
A Oh, yes, they had been settled for a long time.
Q Is it not correct to say that in the summer of 1944 when there were discussions about making out balance sheets, Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl praised you for the way you had managed affairs?
A When the auditor, Dr. Spettstoesser, audited the books, Pohl and Oberfuehrer Baier praised my work.
Q Herr Baier then said that you had been charged with not having had any rent paid out, with not having paid any rent and similar things.
A That is a somewhat lengthy story.
THE PRESIDENT: This Tribunal does not propose to try Dr. Bobermin, or Dr. Klein for these charges that are made. I don't think you need to defend against them. It would make six or seven or eight more lawsuits, and I think we don't need that.
THE WITNESS: Very well, Your Honor. Perhaps I may say that at the time when the books were audited the rents had been paid with the exception of the rent which Obersturmfuehrer Mutmann had to pay.
DR. BERGOLD: You have just been told it isn't necessary to go into that.
THE PRESIDENT: Why don't you sum it all up by saying that none of the charges was true.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, did you at all consider that the WVHA was competent for the proceedings?
A No, the WVHA was not competent for the proceedings, and that is evident too by the testimony by the Court Officer, Dr. Schmidt-Levenow.
Anyhow, I did not consider it competent.
Q And to what end did this matter come for you?
AAfter the interrogation when I arrived at Kranichfeld from Berlin, I had a collapse, I had a nervous breakdown. I had heart attacks; I had pleurisy and pneumonia, and I also had something wrong with my insides, gastric fever.
Q Will you please make it brief?
A I was ill then, and I was in the hospital at Weimar. Afterwards I was in bed at home and under supervision. I was several times asked by the personnel office to report voluntarily for the Waffen-SS. I threw the piece of paper into the stove. In the middle of February I received orders drafting me, telling me to go to the Fuehrer Amt at Bad Saarow as Untersturmfuehrer of the Waffen-SS. I called on the personnel chief of the Waffen-SS.
Q Please be brief.
A I called on the personnel chief of the Waffen-SS and protested against being called up, and Obergruppenfuehrer von Herbst, the Chief of the Personnel Office, did let himself be persuaded that I was sent again as an officer to the OKW.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Court, I am pleased on your behalf and for myself to be able to inform you that I have now come to the end of my submission of evidence.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross-examination of this witness.
BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q Witness, I was very interested in the fact
THE PRESIDENT: Will you identify yourself on the record, Dr. Hoffmann?
DR. HOFFMANN: Yes, Dr. Hoffmann for the Defendant Scheide.
Q (By Dr. Hoffmann): Witness, I was very interested in the account you gave about the proceedings which were adopted in the case of your sister. I would like to suggest that if you had been a convinced National Socialist in those days, or somebody who believed the propaganda, in that case would you have considered the transfer to a concentration camp to be a procedure without trial under law, and would you, in that case, have had the feeling that wrong had been done?
A No. Wrong within the meaning of the law had not been done to my sister. On the contrary, I saw from her files what she had said and what she had confessed to the Gestapo, what she had admitted to the Gestapo, and actually she had not left out criticism which in those days could have been leveled against the regime. I also saw from the files that the interrogations had been very thorough, a great deal more thorough than I liked. My parents' home had been searched. All the correspondence between my sister and my brother-in-law had been looked through. The denouncer, Frau Herdmann, in the Hague, had been interrogated as a witness. They had been very careful about these proceedings. It had been a police penal proceeding.
Q Can yon imagine, Witness, that under those conditions there were people in Germany who really believed that somebody had got into a Concentration camp for quite justified reasons?
A Yes, for the laws which had been issued were there, the laws according to which the steps could be taken and were taken.
DR. GAWLIK for the defendant Dr. Volk.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Witness, was Dr. Volk the Chief of the W-staff?
A I never heard anything about that.
Q Was Dr. Volk ever chief of W?
A No, he certainly never was.
Q Could Dr. Volk as Chief of the Legal Department of the so-called W staff issue any directives to you for the so-called W-VIII office?
A In any case he never did issue any such instructions or directives to me.
Q Did Dr. Volk issue any instructions to your regular assistance?
A He did not issue any such instructions to my regular assistance.
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you. I have no further questions.
DR. MAYER: Dr. Mayer for the Defendant Kiefer.
BY DR. MAYER:
Q Witness, in connection with your work for the Homes, I would like to put a question to you. The Defendant Kiefer, during his examination, testified that in August 1942, he fell ill and became incapable of carrying out his work. Can you remember whether Kiefer around about that time made an application to be allowed to enter a Home?
A Yes.
Q A Rest Home?
A Yes, I remember that. Kiefer, in the autumn of 1942, made an application to be allowed to enter the SS-Berghaus.
Q And when was he sent there?
A He was only sent there at roughly the beginning of March. In between three times or four times the date was postponed.
Q Do you remember how long he stayed there for a rest?
A Yes, and when he had spent the usual three weeks there he made an application for an extended stay, and as far as I remember he stayed for six weeks at the Berghaus.
DR. MAYER: Thank you. I have no further questions.
THE WITNESS: May I add that I remember that for the reason that I was always damning Kiefer this whole time before. I always had to change my plans again and again, and I was very pleased when at last he got there.