That was one.
A. I beg your pardon, that was the task of the Wewelsburg office on the personal staff of the Reich Leader-SS which asked for money from the Monument Society at the orders of Himmler for that purpose.
Q. Well, all right. At any rate the Wewelsburg project was one in which you were interested. It is one in which you had to be interested because Himmler said, "Go ahead and do it!"
A. I had to carry out the transfer of real estate and transfer of money and that exhausted my interest.
Q. Well, you had some interests. You did something about Wewelsburg. Well, you have already said so...
A. Yes, I have stated that here.
Q. Then there was the Extern-Stein Foundation. That was the old medieval stones that you told us about: that is two.
Who in the world was King Henry the First?
A. that was an old German emperor. I think around the year one thousand -- but history is not my strong point.
Q. Nor mine, apparently. There was some plan for a memorial for him: King Henry the First Memorial Foundation?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you do anything about it -- I mean was any work carried on?
A. No, the cathedral itself belonged to the Prussian State, and it was the competent regional curator who looked after it.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Court, the Tribunal cannot understand that the King Henry Fund referred to a certain cathedral -- a church -- in Quedlinburg.
THE PRESIDENT: I understood that. I asked the witness whether he did anything about it, whether he worked on that project, and he said no.
Then you have the Rest Homes for the women and children and, as part of that, the hospital project?
WITNESS: Yes, that is to say, I had to do with the management of the hospital department. The other aspect, the allocation and accommodation, and all that, was under the direction of the Health Office.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Well, I am just trying to find out which projects you had something to do with. Now, have I named them all? Have I named all of the projects that you were interested in?
A. Yes.
Q. Say your answer over again.
A. I had to deal with the Extern Stone Foundation, with the King Henry Foundation. Then I was the manager of the rest homes club, and I had to deal with the monument society. That, however, had some other departments as well.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honor, I am afraid a misunderstanding has arisen here. The defendant, concerning your question about the King Henry Foundation. He understood you to ask him whether he built the King Henry Foundation. He did have work to do for it. He did work for the King Henry Foundation -- however, he didn't build it. He misunderstood you.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, what is the fact? You did some work for the King Henry Foundation.
THE WITNESS: The King Henry Foundation had two managers. The first manager was Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, but in effect he hardly had anything to do with it. The second manager was the Lord Mayor of Quedlinburg. That is the town where the cathedral is situated. That second manager dealt with all the current work, and he collected the contributions from the towns that were members of the foundation, and he organized guiding parties through the cathedral.
Q. (By Dr. Bergold) What did you have to do with that?
A. About once every year I was sent the documents, the papers, from Lord Mayor Selig , that is to say the man who was the Lord Mayor of Quedlinburg, and I then incorporated those papers in my reports for the information of Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl. In affect that work perhaps took me one day a year.
THE PRESIDENT: And that is all you did with reference to the King Henry Memorial?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: You just got the report of the Lord Mayor once a year and passed it on to Pohl?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, in the report of August 1941 you also have a phrase here about the purchasing of the estate of Boedecken in the year 1941. Was this also carried out at that time?
A No, it was only purchased later on. This is the report of the 14th of May, 1942. This is shown by a following report of the 15th of June 1942, from which it becomes evident that on the 28th of May 1942, the final purchasing contract about the Estate Boedecken was concluded. This was done by way of a peaceful settlement. That was sold at the price of 2.4 million Reichsmarks. First of all the owner's demands were too high, and that is why Himmler had ordered this property to be disappropriated. However, it was not completely disappropriated, because a peaceful settlement was later on reached.
THE PRESIDENT: You testified to that yesterday.
Q (By Dr. Bergold) Witness, in this report of 1941, which we have before us now you talk about the death in Auschwitz of the former administrator of the Castle, Dolansky. We have already mentioned the name of Dolansky. I wish, in order to clear up the suspicion that you might have had something to do with his death, I would like you to tell us just what this matter refers to.
THE PRESIDENT: There is no such suspicion at all. You need not talk about it.
DR. BERGOLD: However, I would like to go into the matter for the reason, because it is shown here just how the Defendant Klein stood up on behalf of an these people, in all cases of that kind.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
Q (By Dr. Bergold) Please give us a rather short statement on that, Witness, in accordance with the statement just made by the Presiding Judge.
A That time limit should also be after 1942. In the fall of 1941 I went to Busau, and here I heard that the man in charge of the castle, the Hauptsturmfuehrer Ratz -- he was protected by Himmler, and he had a Court No. II, Case No. 4.very low number as a member in the SS - he had caused Dolansky to be arrested.
Rats had heard through a spy that Dolansky had participated in a plot to assassinate Himmler. As a result of Dolansky's arrest, and the arrest of also another person, I had a very severe dispute with Ratz, because I did not trust Ratz completely. Against the objections of Ratz, I went to Olmuetz, the Gestapo Agency there, and there it was confirmed to me that Ratz and the Gestapo had found out through a spy of the plot against Himmler. In spite of this, I intervened on behalf of Dolansky, and the Gestapo assured me that Dolansky would be released after - six-month period. When Dolansky was in confinement I let his family go on living in their apartment, and I continued to pay his salary, and to the son of Dolansky I gave a job in administering a certain pit which was located in the area. Since I took these measures on behalf of the family I had to include Dolansky's death in this report.
Q In this case also you were able to find out that the protective custody order had been issued as a result of a very detailed investigation?
A Yes.
Q They where you talk about Kranichfeld and you state that inmates had also been employed there, what can you say about that?
A This place belongs in the report and it should be in April of 1942. At kranichfeld - Kranichfeld also had its own construction management. It was directed by Obersturmfuehrer Giesemann whom I have also mentioned before. He was on the personal staff of the Reichsfuehrer-SS. Here we had the same conditions which prevailed at Wewelsburg. Giesemann received his instructions exclusively from Himmler. The reports about the construction work at Kranichfeld were also included in my monthly report.
In agriculture, inmates were only employed on a temporary basis, and this was done as a result of the Speer decree, according to which the construction work had to be temporarily discontinued. The agricultural work was very easy work, among other things the inmates Court No. II, Case No. 4.picked up stones from the fields.
This is work which the peasants with the children in that area usually have to do every three to four years. For here the soil has many little stones, and it is a rather poor area for agriculture. The construction work was begun in the summer of 1941, and on the first of January 1943 this construction work was completed.
Q Under "4" in this report of 1941 you talk about the Best Home Society, but this probably should be included in the report of 1942.
A Yes. The Best Home Society was only founded in April, 1942.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, I thank you for the kind attention, however, I can't fight while sitting down.
THE PRESIDENT: You apparently are not very comfortable. If you want to sit down, of course, you may.
DR. BERGOLD: Very well, your Honor.
Q (By Dr. Bergold) Witness, I am now coming to the 14th of May, 1942. Here under I/A/2 you tell us about the program of the construction work, and what can you say in that connection?
A From this part of the report it becomes clearly evident that for the construction work at Wewelsburg not the Society for the Care of Monuments but exclusively the Office Wewelsburg, under the then Gruppenfuehrer Taubert and Obersturmbannfuehrer Bartels, was solely responsible.
Q In this connection it would interest me to know what rank in the General-SS did you hold at that time, at the time when this report was written?
A I was a Sturmbannfuehrer in 1942.
Q Therefore you had a lower rank than Bartels?
A Yes.
Q With regard to the statements you make here about the inmate camp, was that taken from the report of Bartels?
A Yes, it was taken from the report of Bartels.
Q In this report under Article III, l/A/3, you state that you Court No. II, Case No. 4.had taken some action with respect to the priority numbers given to the work.
You have told us that you had nothing to do with the actual construction, and now here you are still dealing with the priority numbers given to the construction work. Just how can you explain the apparent contrast between your report and your testimony?
AAs a result of the raw-material law which was issued by Speer, I had obtained knowledge of this particular law, and severe punishment was imposed whenever this decree was violated. I was afraid that Bartels who was very generous with these things, being an artist, would not take sufficient care of this construction material. I, therefore, told him in a comradely way about the Specifications contained in that law. Bartels then went to Muenster to the Commissioner for Construction Economy there, and he himself negotiated about the development of this construction work. I myself was not any more concerned with these negotiations.
Q Under the next paragraph, 4, you speak about the fact that Bartels on his own initiative had requested that an investigation should begin. He made that request with Himmler. Were you trying to complain because he interfered in your competence, because you alone were competent for that?
A: No, I only complained about the fact that Bartels did not notify us about his actions. Bartels would do whatever he wanted to. He could have requested that a disappropriation procedure should be instituted. However, the society would have had to submit the funds in order to purchase this property. Furthermore, I was of the opinion that a disappropriation procedure at that time was quite appropriate.
Q: Witness, on Page 3 of the report of the 14th of May 1942, in the form in which it has been submitted now, you spoke about the fact that a request had been made, that guards should be. furnished to Office-I. This was the office for the allocation of inmates. Did you or your society make this request, or who initiated it?
A: These statements also originated in the report of Bartels. The request must have been made by either Bartels or by a competent camp leader. The society had nothing to do with that.
Q: Did this further also belong actually in the report of 1942 or in the report of August, 1941? Can't that be seen from the designation which is given to the reports?
A: From the designation "Office.I, Main Department for the Allocation of Inmates," it becomes evident that this part of the report originated in 1941.
Q: Then on the same page you talk about the procurement of raw material, and you talk about the priority numbers to be given. Are you here referring to your own activity, or did this also come from the report of Bartels?
A: These statements also originated with the report of Bartels. Bartels, as the competent man in the construction management, took this action.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, may I point out that here in the second paragraph on Page 3 of the original report of the 15th of May, 1942, under Paragraph 3, the following is stated, and I quote.
I would like to read this part of the report. "Because of the priority numbers which were given, a report was submitted to the personal staff. The answer has not as yet arrived." It can be seen here that this report originated with another report because it is stated here that to the personal staff a report has been submitted about the priority numbers to be given to the various material. Only the office at Wewelsburg could have submitted this report to the personal staff or its subdivision, namely the Construction Management at Wewelsburg. Therefore, here we see the absolute truth of what the defendant has testified to.
Q: (By Dr. Bergold): Witness, under "H" in this report, capital "H" you spoke about a stone quarry at Preussisch Felmerstod. Since in the first Affidavit-Schwarz the fact has been mentioned that inmates were badly treated in the stone quarries, I would like to ask you to tell us now whether in this stone quarry, Preussisch Felmerstod, inmates worked, or just what was done in the stone quarry?
A: This stone quarry at Preussisch Felmerstod was not leased. A falcon would stay in this particular quarry, which is a very rare bird. That is why this particular place was placed under the protection of the state. Because of this protection of nature the Prussian Forest Administration Office at Wewelsburg refused to lease this particular area. From Wewelsburg inmates could not be furnished to this particular stone quarry because the stone quarry was located fifty kilometers away from Wewelsburg.
Q: And now my final question with regard to your report. I want to ask you the following. In this form of the report of 1942 under L/C with regard to Kranichfeld you state that you requested for an exceptional approvement so that you could actually carry out and continue the repair of this castle.
You have told us that you neither had anything to do with this construction work, why then did you do so instead of the competent construction management?
A: Giesemann also who was in charge of the construction management, as an artist maintained the point of view that an exceptional permission was not necessary in this case. Since the castle belonged to the society I feared that if he violated the building regulations the owner might be punished. For this reason I was careful enough to obtain the exceptional permission so that we would not have any difficulties.
Q: I am now again coming to another subject. Please tell us what ranks you held in the course of your career in the SS and when you achieved the individual ranks so that we will be able to overlook the entire matter.
A: When I was employed by the Society for the Promotion and Care of German Cultural Monuments, I was an Unterscharfuehrer. That was a noncommissioned officer's rank. With an assimilation of rank to my legal education, I was rather quickly promoted to Sturmbannfuehrer. In the summer of 1940 I was still a Hauptsturnfuehrer, and then in the fall I was promoted to Sturmbannfuehrer. Later on, because of my activity for the rest homes, and because so much time had passed, I was promoted once more, and this time I was promoted to Obersturmbannfuehrer. That was on the 1st of December, 1943.
Q: Do these ranks correspond to the same grades in the Waffen-SS, or is there any difference?
A: The rank in a semi-military organization, does not have the same importance as an officer's rank in a troop unit.
This man here only occupies a very unimportant position, more or less, and he can't give any orders. If administrative officers of the General SS were taken over into a budget of the Waffen-SS then the usual settlement was that he was given two ranks less than he held before. For example, for Obersturmfuehrer in the General-SS he would be demoted to Hauptsturmfuehrer in the Waffen-SS. I am now referring to the affidavit of Hans Loerner, and I can give you many other similar examples. I myself, in February 1945, was drafted into the Waffen-SS as Untersturmfuehrer, and this corresponds to the rank of a lieutenant.
Q. Were you ever a full time SS officer?
A. No.
Q. And now I am coming to another subject. Just what knowledge did you have of the atrocities committed in the concentration camps which have been mentioned in this trial and in other trials?
A. I have no knowledge of these atrocities at all. On the day when my sister was committed to a concentration camp - I mean the day when I heard about this decision - I was extremely happy.
Q. What you want to tell us is that if you had suspected what the actual conditions were in concentration camps you would not have been so glad.
A. Yes, certainly.
Q. The military tribunals cannot comprehend the fact that not every German had exact knowledge of the conditions there. If you just tell us you didn't have any knowledge, can you tell us why you didn't have any knowledge?
A. I shall try to explain this to the best of the knowledge which I have today. A very thick curtain of secrecy must have surrounded the concentration camps. Here I want to refer to the Fuehrer Decree about the secrecy regulations which have been mentioned here so often. If actually within the WVHA any knowledge existed of these things, then I still didn't hear anything about them, because I did not have any friend with whom I could have exchanged my thoughts in private. Since 1943 I was in Kranichfeld. General criticism with regard to the prevailing conditions I only heard in the house of my parents. However, here only the prevailing system was discussed and rumors about concentration camps did not go there. It is clear to me today that opponents of the government probably at the end would have talked to the SS officers about these things. My information I was only able to get from the newspapers and in the years 1944 and 1945 occasionally I would listen to foreign broadcasts. However, from these broadcasts I never heard anything about atrocities alleged to have been committed in the concentra tion camps.
Q. Well, witness, however, so many people were committed to concentration camps and members of their families could be found everywhere and, after all, these stories should have circulated, it could be assumed.
A. I think that your theory here is completely wrong. When I was imprisoned by the American Army, I myself was treated badly and I saw that many others, among them women and children, were not treated nicely at all in the camps. I heard terrible things about the camps from many of my comrades. In spite of this, I never read about army of these things in any newspapers, no matter whether it was German, British, or American papers. These things did not come to light at all, although many people were concerned in this case. I cannot reproach anybody with the fact that he did not have any knowledge of these things, because large circles could only have heard of these things through the newspapers and the people perpetrating these deeds are completely silent about them. When my sister was in the concentration camp, in this way I never heard about the atrocities in the concentration camps. My sister only wrote in her monthly letter that she was doing well. I myself could not establish contact with her. What the press or what the state wants to keep quiet, a citizen can't find out. Furthermore, I am of the opinion that it is nobody's duty, even at the price of risking his own head, to investigate inhumane acts, unless he has a very pronounced suspicion. Furthermore, I did not have the opportunity to lift this veil of secrecy as the case of the experiences of my sister has taught me.
Q. Did you also in some other connection, didn't you see in the case of the deportation of Jews that people would have severe difficulties?
A. Yes, on one occasion, and this may have been in the summer of 1943, I tried to follow up rumors which I had heard from Dr. Bresser, who was a friend of the family. At the time we talked to the adjutant of Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl - it must have been Hauptsturmfuehrer Baer and we discussed all these matters.
He told me that these rumors did not correspond to the truth and that this was propaganda of the enemy and he put me on the carpet, so to speak, rather severely, and he told me it would be better if I didn't listen to the foreign broadcasts.
Q. Now, the concentration camps were subordinated to Pohl. As a result of this, didn't you establish a closer contact with the concentration camps?
A. In my opinion, that was only a personal assignment for Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl. This had nothing to do with and was completely separated from the other fields of work of the WVHA. The Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps remained outside of the WVHA at Oranienburg and the designation of Office Group D seemed to have no importance to me, even if I did not like it and I considered ti to be a measure of organizational geography which was carried out at the time. This means that attempts were made that the field of competence should always look as big as possible. The field of the concentration camp administration was very unpopular with me, because I had worked one time at a prison court in the course of my legal training and after these eight days had passed I was just as depressed as if I myself had been a prisoner there. Furthermore, I considered Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl to be a very capable and efficient administrator and in this subordination I saw the best guarantee to the fact that in the concentration camps decent conditions would prevail.
Q. However, it would have been very easy for you to find out something about the concentration camps, wouldn't it?
A. Even in the case of my own sister I was never able to find out anything about the conditions which prevailed at Ravensbrueck. I tried to hear something from an employee of Office W-V, which had farms near Ravensbrueck; I tried to get some information from him. This was an employee by the name of Steuer. The information which I received was quite favorable. Good conditions were said to prevail at Ravensbrueck and today I know that this information was completely wrong.
Q. Did you have anything to do with the OSTI?
A. No, nothing.
Q. Did you know that the OSTI dealt particularly with concentration camp inmates?
A. No, I asked once what the OSTI actually was. I asked informally somebody from Staff W and here I received the information that it was a secret armament enterprise and I didn't press any further questions.
Q. What do you know about the other WVHA offices, in particular, with regard to the contact with concentration camp inmate labor?
A. I was only informed in general outlines. With the Office W-I, for example, I only now heard that these enterprises were converted into armament enterprises. I was unable to overlook the number of workers that were employed and to look at their financial status. I also was unable to hear anything about the extent of the DWB. In the WVHA everybody was sufficiently occupied with his own work.
Q. Did you know anything about the Action Reinhardt?
A. No.
Q. Did you hear anything about freezing experiments?
A. I only heard about these things here from the documents. I then inquired and from the testimony of Ruff I heard that such experiments actually were never carried out.
Q. Did you hear anything about experiments with caladium seguinum?
A. No, I was in Wewelsburg at the time, but I was away on my honeymoon.
Q. Were any experiments with caladium seguinum carried out at Wewelsburg?
A. No, I don't know that.
Q. What did you know about the euthanasia program?
A. Nothing at all.
THE PRESIDENT: That is what I want to know. Caladium seguinum, what was that?
DR. BERGOLD: The prosecution has submitted a document about that.
This refers to the experiments so that people could be sterilized by giving them certain plants. This plant is called caladium seguinum. This was included in the evidence submitted by the prosecution and on one occasion these experiments were discussed at Wewelsburg. However, this was done quite accidentally and this was not at the time when the defendant was present.
THE PRESIDENT: That is the plant that grows in the United States but wouldn't grow in Germany? In America it grows - in America but not in Germany?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, Your Honor, that is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: While I have interrupted you, what was the activity at Kranichfeld? What was being done there?
THE WITNESS: In Kranichfeld we had the ruins of an old castle. These ruins belonged to the Society for Care of German Cultural Monuments. Since these ruins were about to collapse completely, Himmler, in 1941, ordered that restoration work was to be carried out and that part of the ruins should be roofed.
THE PRESIDENT: It had no connection with Wewelsburg?
THD WITNESS: No, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Just another castle?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
DR. BERGOLD: Wewelsburg is located in Western Germany and Kranichfeld is located in Thuringia, which is north of Nurnberg.
Q (By.Dr.Bergold) What do you know about the well known 14F13?
A I didn't know anything about it before. I only heard about it here.
Q Did you know the Bosen speech?
A No.
Q In the officers' mess you must have met your comrades. Didn't you hear anything at the officers' mess about crimes against humanity?
A I never heard anything of that kind at the officers' mess.
Q We have heard that dinners for concentration camp commanders had taken place here. Were you ever invited to any such dinners?
A No.
Q Then it could be concluded from statements by the prosecution that in a period of time, which I don't know in detail, in the yard of the WVHA Building allegedly inmates were hung.
Did you hear anything about that? Were you present at the time?
A No, I was not present when anything of the sort took place, and I never heard anything of the kind. I was away very often on tour and therefore it is quite possible that something like that could have happened in my absence. It is also possible that at that time I was already in Kranichfeld. I heard that something like this might possibly have happened for the first time when the prosecution asked me questions about it.
Q What concentration camps did you know?
A By name I knew the following: Sachsenhausen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Ravensbruck, Auschwitz, Mauthausen, and Niederhagen.
Q Did you ever enter a concentration camp?
A No.
Q Did you have any conversations with inmates with whom you came in contact?
A No, we were not allowed to talk to them even as SS officers.
Q Did you ever hear anything about the total figure of inmates in the concentration camps? Did you know how big this figure was?
A I was unable to overlook that matter. I only heard from general situations that during the war a large number of arrests took place, As a reason for this I considered the following: 1. The growing opposition to the war and consequently a growing seditious activity against the regime; 2. The growing criminality, above all, as a result of the crimes which were committed in the black-out; 3. An exeedingly large -
THE INTERPRETER: I cannot hear.
( a pause.)
THE INTERPRETER: The channel is clear.
Q (By Dr. Bergold) You were just about to describe to us -
A Finally, as a reason for the growing arrests during the war, I considered that criminal legislation was going too far. In the end it was so that all fields of life were limited and restricted as a result of the criminal legislation so that practically everybody had to violate some law or other. For example, the decrees about the war economy.
Q Whom did you consider to be responsible for all the protective custody orders which were issued?
A I considered the Reich Government to be responsible and also the Gestapo, since they carried out and enforced these laws.
Q Before you have answered my question in the way that you considered the Gestapo as not belonging to the SS. However, the Gestapo officials were members of the SS, weren't they, and, therefore, there must have been some connection between them?
A I don't think that all officials of the Gestapo were members of the SS. If Gestapo officials were transferred into the SS, then the Gestapo did not become, from a Reich Agency, an agency of the SS. Members of the SS were also with other agencies without that this fact would change the character of that particular agency. This did not cause these agencies to become SS agencies.
Q And frequently in cases where you intervened, in some cases, you had to deal with Gestapo officials. Didn't you see some SS uniforms there?
A Neither in the Grenz case nor in the case of Scheinmann nor in my negotiations with the Gestapo at Bielefeld, because of my sister, did I see any Gestapo official wearing the SS uniform.
Q After the Gestapo was subordinated to the RSHA and that was a Main Office of the SS wasn't it, weren't you able to recognize the very close connection between the agencies from this?
A This did not change my opinion either. The Gestapo appears in the organizational chart of the RSHA and this was a main office under Himmler. In the RSHA, however, we also had the Security Police and the Criminal Police combined and that does not mean that the Criminal Police was component of the SS. In the verdict of the IMT, the Criminal Police has not been included in the number of criminal organizations. Furthermore, we also had a Main Department of the Regular Police under Himmler and nobody claimed that the Regular Police was a component of the SS. In my opinion, here the competences just overlapped as a result of the personal union with Himmler. Himmler later on also took over the position of the Reich Minister of the Interior and the Chief of the Replacement Army. In the same false logic, we could also assume that the interior Administration and the Replacement Army were also components of the SS.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, I am now coming to a different matter, namely, the deportation of the Jews. This will take up approximately ten minutes and I would suggest that a recess be called at this time. May it please the Tribunal, could we take a recess until two o'clock, because I cannot eat here. Because of my sickness I have to eat elsewhere.