The second case occurred in August, 1944, when again I had made an attend with the Gestapo and the Deputy of Mueller again put it to me that my actions had constituted high treason and that the General SS had nothing to do with the Gestapo. The Gestapo was exclusively a Reich agency.
DR. BERGOLD: I have to correct something hers. My assistant has just told me that the translation may perhaps have been a misunderstanding. It was not the case of somebody having looked in the defendant's files, but we were talking about the defendant having looked in his sister's file.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: That's what I got.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you.
Q. (By Dr. Bergold) Witness, However, through Himmler was not a contact established between the SS, and the concentration camps?
A. As I said before, Himmler was Undersecretary under Frick in the Ministry of the Interior there was a prison office. He combined that office with that of Glieder ungsfuehrer, Formation Leader of the SS. We had a similar case with Goering. Goering was one of the highest SA leaders, Beside he was Reich Air Minister. Nobody for that reason considered the Reich Air Ministry a subformation of the SA. Now I realize that by combining the two offices of Chief of the German Police and of Formation Leader of the SS and by Himmler combining these two offices, the tragedy of the SS began. Himmler at that time in his own person united two extremes. On the one hand the perhaps most decent office which by the Third Reich had to give away the position of the formation leader, Gliederungsfuehrer of the SS; On the other hand toe office which was perhasp the mist indecent one which a Fascist State had to give away, the office of the Chief of the State Police, the Gestapo. In that course of developments the position of the formations bee me more and more unimportant. That was true for the General SS in a similar way in which it was true for the SA. Himmler, therefore tried to get hold of new and genuien positions of power.
To begin with he personally took over the office of the Chief of the German Police. Later on he created the Waffen SS which he could fit in the budget of the Reich. Finally be became Reich Minister of the Interior, The Chief of the Army Training Reserve. All those were positions of personal power held by Himmler. Himmler at that time received the head of Janus. On the one hand, as the formation leader, there were the plans which General Wolff has described here for the SS. On the other hand the Chief of the State Police. Under that grimace, under complete secrecy, he gave vent to his tyranny.
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
Q. Where else?
A. Inside Germany we say the features of the formation leader, which showed itself openly, whereas the grimace was completely secret and hidden. It is clear to me today that abroad only the grimace could be seen for everybody who escaped abroad from the claws of the Gestapo must have become a propagandist against the methods of Himmler and the Gestapo.
Q. Well, that is all very well, but was not such a man bound to exert bad influence on the SS?
A. At the time I was not able to make observations of that nature. Himmler always preached an idealistic attitude.
Q. Did you at any time obtain a personal impression of Himmler? Did you ever meet him?
A. Yes, that was in March, 1940. May I correct something there. During the examination of General Wolff a translating error crept into the English transcript. It says there when Dr. Ficht asked a question that that conversation took place in 1943. That is incorrect.
DR. BERGOLD: That is correct. In the German transcript the correct date is given, 1940, but in the English transcript, evidently it is either a translating error or a typing error, the year has been given as 1943.
A. (Continued) At that time I reported to Himmler and told him that the construction at Wewelsburg was infringing on the laws, which Himmler as Police Chief had to supervise. First Himmler pulled a face as if he had bitten into a sour lemon and then Wolff stepped into the conversation and Himmler actually did desist from his favorite idea, and for some time, that is to say, for more than one year, stooped the work of the brewery and I was impressed by his overcoming his own desires. For the rest, Himmler had fantastic idealistic ideas. Dr. Bergold, in describing the happenings in the crypt with the weapons, has already mentioned this.
But I was not able to assume that a person who had such idealistic and fantastic ideas would be capable of such cruelty, as became evident later on. I considered his ideas to be more or less fantasies, similar to those in America, where there are supposed to be societies where the members wear medieval costumes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Which organization is that? I never heard of it.
DR. BERGOLD: Here in Germany, perhaps, it is only a rumor, but here in Germany it is said quite frequently that in the States there are societies where members for certain festival occasions dress in costumes of knights and similar things. However, Gentlemen, you must know for yourself between these two nations, every so often rumors go about.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Witness, you have described to us in general your work at Wewelsburg. You have told us approximately one-half went to Wewelsburg. By the way, I would like to ask you - where did you normally live, and where was your office when you were not at Wewelsburg?
A My office was in Berlin until the spring of 1943.
Q Were you always in Berlin?
A Then I went to Kranichsfeld. I lived in Kranichsfeld. I was away a great deal and, generally speaking, rather very frequently; I only spent ten days every month in Berlin at the central office.
Q From when on did your work in Wewelsburg decrease?
A My work in Wewelsburg was almost entirely finished in the summer of 1942 when there was no longer any need for the sale of sites.
Q What did you do after that; what was your work after that?
A From then onward I started to get the rest homes going. I got the commission to establish rest homes for women and children, and that was a work which satisfied me to a far greater extent than the task at Wewelsburg had done.
Q How many homes were at, your disposal?
A When I started that work there were three homes. The SS Berghaus under Theato - and at the head of it Obergruppenfuehrer Frank with ten beds; one home at Salzbah-Walden, with 20 beds; and further, a small home at Karlsbad. The latter two were under the Facial and Settlement Main Office. The home at Karsbad always remained under the Facial and Settlement Office.
Q Well, could you fulfill your tasks with these few homes?
A No, I went into the demand for homes, and the demand was very big as women and children were suffering terribly from air raids in our big cities. The food situation, too, in the big cities was bad.
Q Were you able to carry out that task via the W VIII Office?
A No, no. I could not carry out that task via the Office W VIII, But I had to create a new legal organization, the combine of homes.
Q Can you tell me why the foundation of those homes was really Court No. II, Case No. 4.necessary?
AAs to financing, for the accommodation, and for the food, there were only those possibilities that existed for any other private undertaking. The Reich budget of the Waffen-SS could not include funds for homes for women and children. In the budget of the general SS, that is to say, the Nazi Party, the NSDAP, there were no funds either for homes. Hotel space, hotel accommodation was no longer available on account of confiscation. What I mean to say is, forced agreements, forced rental agreements; and hotel accommodations for that reason were very short. Very short. Later, forced tenancy was no longer possible. Therefore, I was left only with those facilities that are available to any private undertaking.
Q Why did you choose the legal form of a club and not an incorporation?
A I chose that form so that no incorporation into the DWB should occur. The DWB was not suitable for my task, my charitable task. Furthermore, a purely commercial activity of the SS was not to my liking. In the case of a club any such incorporation was not possible as there were no shares which could have been transferred to a holding company. As a further guarantee I entered the provision into the statute that the property of the club in the case of liquidation should be used for charitable purposes. Later, it was in the late summer of 1944, at the instructions of Pohl and the W staff, a firm Rest Homes for Natural Cure and Way of Living, G.m.b.H. - was established which was to enter into an organic relationship with the DWB; but that firm never started work. I was appointed manager of that firm, but I did not undertake any work in the firm for the very reason that the foundation capital had never been paid in and I would have made myself liable by my own person. In the club for homes, Heimeverein, I had a stronger position than with the monuments society because I was the manager.
Q Well, witness, you have just described to us that, in any event, in the budget there were no funds for the homes. How did you get Court No. II, Case No. 4.funds?
Did you get them by loans from the other W firms; or how, actually, did you get your money?
A I earned those funds. The homes club consisted of two departments; one, the rest homes; and two, the hospital department. The rest homes needed extra money paid into it; whereas the hospital department earned money. The SS hospital department was under the SS Leadership Main Office. Office Group D, Medical Department of the WaffenSS -- it was always briefly called Medical Office -- Sanitaetsamt. That Medical Office had a contract, an agreement, with the German Holiday Company, on the management of the hospital department, that is to say, kitchen and hotel staff. Accounts were settled according to a certain rate for the hotel staff, independent of the number of people, the number of patients, and according to a certain rate for the food which was dependent on the number of patients.
Q There is no need to go into such detail.
A That contract, that agreement, was criticized by the Auditing Court because the DWB was asking for more money. The Medical Office was looking for a new person and I jumped into the breach and, by my management of the hospital departments, I made the usual profits which were admissible under the Reichsleistungsgesetz.
Q Well, what was the extent or scope of the hospital departments? I just like to get a picture of your work.
A On the 1st of October 1944, fifteen hospital departments with about 3500 beds were under management. Besides, there was the maternity home at Marienbad, with five houses.
Q And what was the scope of the homes; how many homes were you looking after?
AAt the same time there were 35 rest homes With approximately 1500 beds.
Q But I don't think it has become quite clear as to how you procured the funds for the homes. Exclusively from the private profits from the hospital?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
AAs far as I needed additional funds for the rest homes, I could take those from my profits, through the management of the hospital departments.
Q Well, that is all very well-
THE PRESIDENT: How many hospitals did you say?
WITNESS: 15.
DR. BERGOLD: 15 hospitals, and 35 rest homes.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Well, witness, that is all very well, but, did you get money from managing the homes? You had to make a start some where.
A Well, first of all I took up a credit with interest with the Dresdner Bank -- I think it was 200,000 PM -- and after 9 months I was able to pay it back.
Q You said just now that you also set up maternity homes. Did those maternity homes have any thing to do with the Lebensborn?
A No; on the contrary, in the SS there was an antipathy for the Lebensborn, that is to say, the women, the waives of the SS men did not want to be in the same homes as the mothers of illegitimate children. The situation in the big cities at that time was such that, as far as possible, the women had to be sent to homes which were not in danger of air raids; therefore, together with the Medical Office I set up other maternity homes; or, rather, unfortunately only the Marienbad was actually established - whereas I had many other plans which I wished to carry out.
Q Were you looking after all the SS rest homes of the SS?
A No. The RSHA, the SS Main Office, the SS Death Head formations had their own homes which were under completely independent management.
Q What were the plans you had with your homes; were they always to be limited to the SS, or were other persons to be allowed in it as well?
A No. The intention was to open the homes for persons from all Court No. II, Case No. 4.circles, also from outside the SS, and, in fact, frequently people were admitted who had nothing to do with the SS.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Who became the owners of the fortune of the club?
A The owners were the members under formal law, but they could not use the property of the club because by doing that they would have had to liquidate the club; and in the case of liquidation the property of the club would have had to be available for charitable purposes. Therefore, it was a property so tied to the use for purposes of idealism similar to a donation.
Q Witness, when you said that the property of a club could not be used for other purposes, do you mean to say it could be used for the purposes of the club?
A Naturally; that was laid down in the statute.
Q According to the account which you have given us so far it seems to me that your office could not be compared with the other offices of the WVHA?
A My office had no way of contact with the other offices. The clubs which I directed were not incorporated in the DWB because their aims were exclusively cultural, or charitable. That was also shown when the office was transferred to Thuringia. I did not feel it was to my disadvantage that I was not at Berlin. If I had been forced to be in continuous contact with the other offices, that would have great disadvantages on account of the distance.
Q What is the conclusion you draw from your views?
A The designation "Amtschef" - chief of office - was merely a designation, a title, for me. Just like the other employees I was merely an employee of the Monument Society, or of the Homes Club. My employees, too, were not employees of the WVHA, but they were the employees of the firms. My work was not affected by changes in the organization. It always continued along the same lines. The W VIII had no legal status. It was purely a fiction.
Q Well, you say that you had been merely an employee of the Homes Club, but I have to put it to you that in October 1943 you received a contract from the DWB; does that not prove that you belonged to the DWB?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A No, it was only a formal contract which, during the war, in the case of my death was to make sure that my dependents, my family, would be looked after to a cert in extent. That contract was sent to me. I think it was signed by the DWB because the Monument Society and the Homes Club did not have enough capital.
Q Well, witness, would you tell us whether you worked together with the other offices in the WVHA, and in what way?
AAs I have pointed out already, there was no continuous cooperation. My work depended on my firm, which had no actual contact with the Reich Sector, and the other firms.
Q Witness, the document in Volume 14, the document of the Prosecution 1563, Exhibit 392, page 59 in the English text and page 56 in the German text, - shows that Pohl had detailed financial discussions with the chief of the W offices. Were you present when these discussions were held - insofar as they concerned the other W offices, or only when your firm was concerned?
A I only attended when the balance sheets of my firm were discussed.
Q Was that the same custom with the other firms?
A I assume so, but I was not there.
Q Witness, I am now coming to your own reports which have been submitted by the prosecution - Exhibit 455, Document No. 547 in Document Book No. 17. That is the last document but one in that document book. First of all I would like to go into those reports from a general point of view. What was the purpose you had in making those reports. Why were those reports made?
AAt the order of Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, I had to report to him every month about my work, that is to say, I had to report to him about the activity in which the club had engaged. The reports were intended for the information of Pohl. Furthermore, these reports were to show for history at a later time the development of the firm. In the reports, therefore, there is not only described my own work but there are Court No. II, Case No. 4.also described those events which took place at the request of Himmler or Pohl.
For example, credit negotiations with the Reich Post Ministry, credit negotiations with the Dresdner Bank, general plans of Himmler, and similar matters.
Q Witness, yesterday you gave us a detailed description that the construction management at Wewelsburg did not come under your office but that it was under the direction of the Wewelsburg office, that is the Fuehrungshauptamt of the SS. Those reports, however, contain detailed data about the activity at Wewelsburg. Can one not from that conclude that the construction management at Wewelsburg was under your management, because, otherwise you would not have to report about it?
A In my reports there are also data about Wewelsburg, and that for the general information of Pohl. That information, that data, was taken from the reports made by the building management at Wewelsburg. Pohl had to be informed about the activity of the building management at Wewelsburg because we had to make available the necessary funds, and because Pohl had to expect that Himmler would talk to him about Wewelsburg, which was his, Himmler's, a favorite project.
Q But just now you have only described to us as to how these reports came about. Now tell us, how did you get the documents, as the building management was not under your direction?
A Bartels reported to Himmler directly, and sent him his monthly reports. Bartels sent me copies of those monthly reports, and from those copies I took the necessary data and incorporated it in my reports.
Q If we have a look at the document as such, this Document 547, is it in its proper order in the form in which it has been submitted to the Tribunal by the prosecution?
A No, it is not in order, and the pages of various reports have been interchanged. The report about July 1941, that is one of the reports, originates in effect from August 1941 and goes on; and that is October figure Roman one, Arabic two. Then there is figure five, all of Court No. II, Case No. 4.a sudden, Arabic five.
From there on the report dates April 1942. And in the same way in the report about April 1942. The pages up to Roman capital A, Arabic four, Resettlement and Acquisition of Real Estate, are taken from the report belonging to the report of April 1942, and within that paragraph the report of April 1942 suddenly breaks off and the information of August 1941 follows. Doctor, I have not got the date here with the page number. Perhaps you can tell the Court.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please your Honor, the photostatic copy of this document which I have does not have it, but perhaps Dr. Ficht can show it to you. I can tell from the page number the pagination has been mixed up here.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, can't one explain that by mentioning some dates?
A On page 3 of the report of August, '41, I report about a decree by Speer of 15 March, '42. That Speer decree could only have been foreseen by Macbeth and his witches. Unfortunately, I altogether lacked the gifts of a prophet.
Q Witness, and now to make it easier for the court, I am going to base my questions about the report such as those being submitted to the Tribunal because otherwise it is too difficult for the Tribunal to keep on turning over the pages.
In the report of 13 August, '41, in the form in which it has been submitted, there are details about the credit negotiations with the Dresdner Bank. The credit refers to the buildings at Wewelsburg. What did you have to do with those negotiations?
A The negotiations which led to a binding agreement about granting a credit, I did not conduct. They were introduced by General Wolff, and Himmler or Pohl concluded them. I merely, when the basic agreement had been concluded, in respect of Himmler's personal affairs for that credit, went and listened to the bank tell us their wishes.
Furthermore, I called up the amounts of credit as they were needed, and I called up the sums as requested by Bartels. As far as amounts of the credit which were due, were not yet needed for Wewelsburg, in order to save interest, I temporarily invested those sums in Reich Treasury securities.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Well, witness, when you speak of the Society you mean the Society for German Cultural Monuments?
A Would you forgive me, Your Honor? That is correct.
Q Did the Society advance any capital for building the inmates' camp at Wewelsburg?
A The camp was first of all built for the RAD (Reich Labor Service) at that time, therefore, it was not intended to house prisoners.
Q It was built for what?
A For the Reich Labor Service.
Q Oh, all right.
AAnd when the prisoners were brought to Wewelsburg, I cannot say for certain whether and how much money Bartels may have given for the completing of any work. That I could not tell from the bulk of the money as it was asked for and from the data which Bartels gave on the use of the money, and which he gave in lump sums.
Q Well, did Bartels have anything to do with the Society?
A No, he was under the Wewelsburg office in the personal staff of the Reichsfuehrer-SS.
Q Well, I am still trying to find out: did the Society advance any money for building or remodeling the inmates' camp? Did you use Society funds for that?
A Your Honor, it is possible that Bartels, who freely disposed of the sums that had been transferred to him during the existence of the labor camp, used money of the Society for the labor camp. From the moment when, at the orders of Himmler, that labor camp became a concentration camp, it is quite out of the question that funds of the Society were used for it because the concentration camp had been entered in the Reich budget, had been allowed for in the Reich budget.
Q Well, my question is suggested by a statement in your report of August 13, 1941. The English translation says: "The expenditures mads by the Society for the inmates' camp in Wewelsburg is being taken over by the Reich."
A That largely refers to the expenditure on behalf of the former Reich Labor Service Camp. That expenditure was made before my days.
Q That is before it was decided to change it to a concentration camp?
A That expenditure was made by the Reich when the camp was transformed into a concentration camp because the former buildings of the Reich Labor Service Camp had passed into the possession of the Reich.
Q Well, then the last sentence in the same paragraph: "Furthermore, the Society can shift over" -- that means transfer -- "approximately 12,000 Reichsmarks per month to the budget of the NSDAP General-SS from one August, 1941."
What does that mean?
A Your Honor, first of all, the translation came through wrongly. In my report it says, "Furthermore the Society may, every month, transfer 12,000 marks to the SS." That is to say, the Nazi Party did temporarily help the Society and not vice-versa. What happened was this. In order to help the Society, the salaries of the staff of the Building Management at Wewelsburg temporarily was paid by the Nazi Party. That is to say, thus the same arrangement was made for the Building Management at Wewelsburg as already existed for the rest of the Wewelsburg office. That arrangement was enforced only until approximately February, 1942, as far as I can recollect. The 12,000 marks were never used ully, because the salaries were not high enough to use that whole amount.
Q Well, it isn't clear. Is it to you, Dr. Bergold?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, it is clear to me. If I may aid the Tribunal by putting some questions, I should be pleased to do so.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, either by putting some questions or putting your own translation on the witness's answer.
DR. BERGOLD: I can give my own translation. The sentence which attracted the attention of Your Honor -that is to say, the expenditure of 660,000 marks a month, the expenditure for Wewelsburg -- that amount consisted largely of the expenditure made for the Reich Labor Service Camp, which later on was used as a concentration camp. The Reich Labor Service had nothing to do with prisoners, but when Himmler, after the outbreak of war, sent prisoners to Wewelsburg, instead of the Reich Labor Service Camp, those prisoners were sent to the camp of the Reich Labor Service. The expenditure for that camp, however, had already been made. Probably that was in the year 1938. That is before the days when the defendant had anything to do with it. But it is humanly understandable that that expenditure to the tune of 600,000 marks was always used for the so-called prisoners camp. That is what the defendant meant to say by his somewhat vague testimony.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think we understand that there had been an original capital investment, on behalf of the labor front, of 600,000 marks for a labor camp. Now, when the camp was taken over as a concentration camp, somebody had to pay back that 600,000 marks.
DR. BERGOLD: The German Reich paid back to the Society that 600,000 marks, for the Reich then took over those camps, those barracks.
All the expense for the concentration camp came out of the Reich funds.
THE PRESIDENT: I think we understand it.
DR. BERGOLD: I am convinced of that. But I would make a little contribution towards the truth. May it please the Court, my client and I do not wish to mislead the Tribunal; we do not know for certain whether this amount of six hundred thousand marks referred solely to the Reich Labor Service Camp. It is possible that Bartels extended, enlarged that camp somewhat, and that some amounts were later on entered by the Society, went through the Society's books. Bat the defendant cannot know that because Bartels always asked for large sums: 100,000 marks, 200,000 marks; and he did not have to render accounts because his was an independent office, because the society was nothing but the treasurer.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, now I would like you to confirm this. Is it correct that you used the word "prison camp" in your report because at that moment it was used as a prison camp?
A Yes.
Q But by that arrangement, that is to say, that the Reich set up a concentration camp, did you negotiate about who was going to bear the costs or what happened?
A No, I heard that the concentration camp was going to be established from a report by Bartels. I don't know for certain who ordered the enlargement of the concentration camp. I assume that it was Himmler. The Society had nothing to do with the concentration camp. That is evident too from the report of the 14th of May, 1942. There is a report there about the building work which the Society did, and that part was taken from the Bartels report; concerning the expense of the building work, there is no report because the Society itself had nothing to do with the establishment of a concentration camp.
Q Yesterday you told us that you were asked to make available barracks for the building of the concentration camp. That didn't refer to this concentration camp, did it?
A Yes, it did. Bartels was very much interested in increasing his number of workers. Therefore, he urged that work should be done quickly, that the work should be speeded up. He asked me to do him a favor and help him with procuring barracks. I refused that under the pretext that I had no raw material quotas for barracks. During the war I didn't think it was any good to build in Wewelsburg. Bartels tried to get barracks for himself then.
Q Who was the one who saw to it that this concentration camp was being built?
A I can't tell you that exactly. I assume that a building management for new constructions of the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps set to work there. That is true for the building of the concentration camp. As to who dealt with the extension of the former Reich Labor Service Camp or the later concentration camp prisoners' labor camp, that I don't know for certain. It is possible that Bartels had something to do with it.
Well, you have already told us that, Doctor.
Q. Witness, in these reports you mention several times the employment of prisoners. Where did that report come from? Was that your own report?
A. That, to, came from Bartels' report. I mean the reports which Bartels sent to me.
Q. The copies of the original reports?
A. Yes, yes.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Well, it was no news to you that prisoners were being employed by Bartels? You knew that all the time, didn't you?
A. I heard that in 1939, as I have already testified here, your Honor.
Q. Well, you knew that the concentration camp was established in place of the old labor camp for the purpose of reconverting this old castle. That is what the labor was for there.
A. Yes; first of all, the people from the labot camp and later the people from the concentration camp.
Q. Yes. So the statement about the use of inmates for labor could have come from either you or Bartels. You both knew about it.
A. I knew that prisoners worked there but I didn't know how many worked there, and I didn't know what sort of work they were performing at the time; that I learned, and I took, from Bartels' reports.
Q. Oh, well, I can understand that. You didn't direct the labor yourself nor allocate it?
A. No.
Q. But you knew that Bartels was using it?
A. Yes; I had known that as from 1939.
Q. Well, while I have you on the wire, let me see if I can get the activity of the Society straightened out here. First, there was the Wewelsburg project, the reconstruction of this castle that Himmler ordered.