A. No, at no time.
Q. Were any compulsory labor employed in the enterprises?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: He didn't finish his answer. What enterprises are you talking about?
DR. GAWLIK: I am speaking about all the enterprises which were being administered by the Ostdeutsche Baustoffwerke and the main Department III-A-4, which is identical --- all the brick works.
THE WITNESS: No, at no time.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. And your answer also refers and applies to all the brick works of the Ostdeutsche or German Construction Material Company and the main department III-A-4 ?
A. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, all your 400 plants were not brick works, were they?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE PRESIDENT: What about any of the plants administered by Office III-A-4, brick works or anything else. Did you use inmates?
THE WITNESS: Yes, in the cement factory at Golleschau, but that was not part of the main department III-A-4 nor did it belong to the Eastern German Construction Material Company, I shall come back to that later on, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, in order to explain the whole thing may I state the following: In my examination I am going from a chronological point of view. I am now speaking about the main department III-A-4 chronologically and also about the Eastern German Construction Material Company. In order to make this whole complicated material understandable to you, I prefer to proceed in a chronological order.
THE PRESIDENT: Good.
Q. What kind of labor was it that you employed in those enterprises of the Eastern German Construction Material Company in the main department III-A-4?
A. Only free workers who had already been working with those enterprises prior to the Polish campaign. Of course, there was a certain change in personnel which change, of course, I could not control in detail, but fundamentally speaking nothing changed. The workers resumed their work after the end of the Polish campaign and that with a pleasure.
Q. Were those workers in any way compelled to resume their work?
A. I can answer in the negative, generally speaking; but, of course, the labor offices which were competent for the entire Reich area did supervise the work as such and the labor allocation as such.
Q. Were those workers ordered to go into any German agency and were they then transferred into barracks under military guard or escort?
A. No, not at all.
Q. Where were those workers living ?
A. The workers lived with their families in their own homes and, as far as I knew, I believe they lived in exactly the same homes where they were living prior to the Polish campaign. Of course it is possible that in individual cases workers were possibly moved away by the police not on my initiative to provide billets for other people, but principally speaking, the workers did remain in their homes and, in any case, with their families.
Q. Did the workers have a right to complain?
A. Yes, indeed. They had that according to the regulation of the enterprise and they also had the right to hold certain claims against the German Labor Front.
Q. Were working hours for those workers limited?
A. Yes, The working time had been fixed by the trusteeship for the workers. That was a Reichs agency which would fix the working conditions in the individual countries as far as working was concerned.
Q. Did the managers of the individual enterprises have the right to punish the workers or reprimand the workers, rather?
A. No. I believe by that you meant a right to punish them physically. I believe "flogging" was the word. No, they didn't have that right.
Q. Were the workers forbidden to follow their religion?
A. No.
BY THE PRESIDENT: Were the workers permitted to go to church?
THE WITNESS: Yes, indeed. As far as I was concerned, there were no misgivings whatever about that, nor did I issue regulations against it. Whatever the workers did outside of their work I was not interested in.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. I shall show you document NO-4341, Exhibit No. 622. Were you informed of this letter of the Reich Labor Ministery?
A. No, I was not informed of this letter due to two reasons : firstly, that letter is dated the 14 of March, 1941. That was the time when I was on sick leave; and, secondly, the agency of the main department III-A-4 was already in Posen at the time. So that even my former agency - after all I was no longer in charge of that -would not have gained any knowledge of this letter; and, finally, we were not at all interested in all this, because we did have enough labor in the Warthebau at the time; but according to my opinion it is absolutely stated here that excessive numbers of workers were to be brought from the Warthegau into the Reich.
Is that sufficient for you, Mr. Defense Counsel?
Q. Yes. What do you know about the working conditions in the enterprises of the Eastern German Construction Material Company or the main department III-A-4?
A. Of course, I did visit a large number of factories in the course of all those years and it is quite natural that I visited the larger enterprises much more often than I visited the small ones. The working conditions in those plants, generally speaking , were exactly the same as they applied normally to the brick industry.
It is a know fact that the brick industry, I believe in the entire world, is absolutely backward seen from a technical point of view. The reason for that is not to be found in the fact that the technique in manufacturing the bricks is sort of backward but, rather, to the fact that a brick industry is something that is extremely difficult, regarding it from an economic point of view.
This branch is not very agreeable to large capital investments and perhaps that is the reason why, in Poland which did not have too much capital, the plants were not very backward, in the technical sense but they had already lost quite a bit of their machines. I looked upon it as my duty, and I also acted accordingly , to bring those plants into a condition which would enable them to come up to the same level as the German brick industry --- not only come up to the same level but even exceed that level; and, of course, those technical improvements were of considerable advantage to the working conditions of the workers.
I do not know if you want me to go into detail and to describe the whole thing more in detail.
Q. No, thank you; that is fine.
A. I am very sorry that my photographic album, which I had and which contained hundreds of pictures, was lost during the war, because those pictures would describe to you much more clearly how things had changed under the management of the general trusteeship company much better than any words.
Q. How did the payment of the workers take place?
A. The payment of the workers took place in cash, according to the official wage scales which prevailed for all industry workers within that area. Shall I continue, Mr. Defense Counsel?
Q. Thank you, no. Do take a look at your affidavit, which is Document NO-1566, Exhibit No. 19 in Document Book No. 1. In this document you stated that the Polish workers had to pay a socalled Polish tax. Is that correct ?
A. Yes. This so-called Polish tax had been introduced by the Reichs Finance Minister probably because he was of the opinion --I believe that was the reason stated at the time --- that the social level which, prior to German occupation, was very low, must not be assimilated to the German level so quickly. I am not quite sure if that was the reason but that was what was being said at the time.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: How much did the tax amount to?
THE WITNESS: 20 percent of the net wages.
JUDGES PHILLIPS: And what was the minimum wage for a Polish worker?
THE WITNESS: That I couldn't tell you in figures, Mr. Federal Judge. I simply can't remember those figures, but in any case I would like to point out the efforts made by the enterprise managers how they finally succeeded in getting a change in the whole thing.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I just wanted to know if you knew what the minimum wage was so we could have some idea of the compilation of 20 percent of it. That is all. If you don't know, why, you can't help us out any.
THE WITNESS: I would think that the lowest wage could have been about 50 pfennigs per hour.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Could you stop the deduction of this so-called Polish tax in any way? 5852
A. No, I couldn't. That was a tax which applied to all the enterprises which employed Polish workers.
In any case I did, if I may state so in this connection, try to have this Polish tax eliminated and I tried that together with other business managers. This Polish tax was quite an amount in our accounting. There were a lot of disturbances in the enterprises. That was the reason why we endeavored to possibly have those Polish taxes stopped or even at least kept down in applying to the Reichsstatthalter of Poland. As far as I can recall we finally succeeded in having this Polish tax eliminated for the lowest wage scales. In any case a cut was carried out so that a strong social help took place.
Q What would have happened if you had refused to deduct this Polish tax, witness?
A I would have been punished for not declaring it or rather I would probably have been punished for not paying the tax and I probably would have been personally liable for the amount of taxes that had not been paid. It probably would have amounted to sums which I could not possible have provided myself.
Q Witness, you told me that the wages of the Polish workers corresponded to that of the German workers in the old Reich territory, is that correct?
A I do not believe you can express it that way, Mr. Defense Counsel. In the entire Reich area, that is to say in the new German eastern territories, we had so-called wage areas, that is to say, in each wage area the trustee of the area would fix the wages of the inmates depending on the total cost of living, and, of course, it is clear that in the industrial circles in the cities the wages were higher than in the rural districts. As for instance, the wages of workers who were working in the brick factories of Posen were higher than those in the Rhineland, in that area.
Q But generally they were the same as those of the German workers in the Reich area?
A Yes, undoubtedly they were approximately the same.
Q How was it with the purchasing power of the money, witness, in the occupied Eastern territories?
A The purchasing power of the money, of course, was higher than that of the old Reich territory, particularly with reference to food stuff.
Q What were the reasons for that?
A Those areas are largely agricultural ones and the transportation of agricultural products was not very expensive, and there also there was a direct contact from the manufacturer and from the producer to the consumer.
Q Were the wages in spite of the Polish tax sufficient to take care of the workers for whatever they wanted to buy?
A Yes, indeed, you can actually say that.
Q How did you, witness, improve the living conditions of the Polish workers or employees?
AAs the man in charge of the enterprise I was very, very interested in having a group of men who were gladly working for me, for only a worker who is satisfied, works satisfactorily. The conditions during the war, of course, were not very happy ones everywhere in Germany and the enterprise manage is tried in every way, and I was not an exception in that, to possibly eliminate or build bridges across the war economic conditions which prevailed at the time for their workers. The main worry, of course, was provision of food. That was the reason why I considered it one of the most important tasks to establish works-kitchens there. I got many agricultural products for those kitchens where the farms were in connection with the brick works and the workers received currently a warm meal at noon, which was quite cheap. I believe it cost ten pfennigs per day and we hardly collected any food coupons for that. I, furthermore, saw to it that rabbit breeding farms were installed in those enterprises. That was very interesting because that was the only kind of meat that was not rationed at the time. We then slaughtered thousands of those rabbits and turned them into the kitchens in those plants and sometimes we gave those rabbits to the workers to take home.
I believe, I, furthermore, saw to it that the workers were receiving the heavy, and most heavy workers rations, and the long workers' rations, and I did that upon my own responsibility. As far as granting additional food amounts was concerned there were special regulations concerning that and I tried to apply those regulations in a broad sense, and not a narrow sense, and I believe I can state I was quite broad minded while applying those regulations for the additional food. The procurement of the textile and the leather goods was also one of our main worries. Those things were naturally taken care of by the city economic office or by the rural economic offices by coupons, but, of course; it was more or less to be expected that the applications submitted by the Poles were not dealt with very favorably. That is the reason why in urgent cases I very frequently gave the economic office under those circumstances would have refused such application. Finally, I saw to it that there were several wagons of working clothes sent to these Poles, that is to say, over-alls, in order to help the workers preserve their own clothes, furthermore, working shoes and rubber boots for the workers in the pits and similar things. Generally speaking I can say that the working conditions of the Polish workers who, of course, were not spoiled in their own homes, in spite of the difficulties during the war, did not become any worse off, but generally speaking they even improved their conditions. As far as the technical things are concerned, do you want me to continue about that?
Q I believe we will come back to that. Did you have anything to do with the deportation of the Poles into the old Reich and did you participate in the re-settlement of the Poles?
A May I say one thing about the question you just asked, please?
Q Yes.
A I stated before that the question of wages had been fixed for both Poles and Germans according to the tariffs. In other words, there were official regulations I had to comply with.
In order to detour those regulations I for instance purchased the monthly street car tickets for my worders in Posen, which, of course, would have cost them quite a percentage of their wages, in order to enable them thus to have a certain amount of money which would be tax free. As far as the other question is concerned which you asked me, Mr. Defense Counsel, of course, I did not participate in such deportations, apart from the humane point of view that would have also been against the interest of the enterprise which I was in charge of. I was satisfied if I could keep my staff together and on the contrary the deportation of one of my worders had resulted into GG, which meant re-settlement, or if a worker had been conscripted into the Reich, I protested against it quite emphatically, and I was also successful in protesting.
Q.- What were the agencies which were doing the deportation of Poles as workers, or the resettlement of Poles; what were the agencies tell me witness?
A.- The deportation of the Poles into the old Reich, as far as I can recall and according to my knowledge, was done by the Labor Office and the resettlement was done by the so-called resettlement commission. I would like to add that deportation to the old Reich was quite often not carried out under conventions, but quite a few Poles went to the Reich voluntarily because they were working there under certain conditions which were given by the armament distribution. We have already spoke about the latter program such as additional food was given to the Polish workers, etc.
Q.- I shall now come to a different point, witness, were those enterprises spolized?
A.- No.
Q.- Who were the brick workers when the big trustees took over those enterprises; the brick works I mean?
A.- I believe I stated that before, but continuing I would like to speak of a few points in detail. Old buildings and machines with very few exceptions needed repair and most enterprises, due to the war, had either been entirely or partly destroyed. Due to the economic condition of the brick industry in Poland, which was not very good, the persons who owned those enterprises prior to our arrival postponed certain jobs which had to be done currently. For instance, the accumulation of old iron or scrap iron and the current repair of both buildings and machines, etc., and similar things. All of this work had first to be caught up with. We had to repair all those things, I have to state I was in a happy condition that I did not have to be very careful with a nickel. After all I did not have a special order here to make money out of the enterprise, rather my order was to bring those big factories back into order. I be lieve that it is not very often that a somebody is in a better condition to carry out those things to such an extent and as far as the war permitted it, I availed myself of every opportunity to do that.
I furthermore rebuilt the work shops. I had hand tools installed, had transportation tools, thousands of kilometers of small tracks which were provided for western Germany used in the efforts to construct the Western wall, small push cars and similar things. In other words, technical things which did not at all exist prior to those enterprises before.
Then, of course, there were racks, the wooden boxes where the bricks were assembled before burning them, and they had to be repaired or installed again. In particular they even increased their efficiency. I believe that gives you the details.
Q.- Yes, yes, quite so. When the administration of the brick plants was taken over by the trustee general was there any working capital there?
A.- No, only to a very small extent. It is quite obvious that the moment the gormer owners left, they took everything along in cash. The equipment for the manufacturing of brick which was in the plants during the hard winter of 1939-40 suffered severely and they could only be used in part. That was the reason why I had some difficulties with money as Dr. Winkler stated yesterday.
Q.- What was the amount of the investment that occurred during your service with the trusteeship?
A.- I cannot give you the exact figures today, after all these many years, but it amounted to millions, I don't believe that eight million would be over estimating the whole thing.
Q.- How can you tell us about the extent of the investments?
A.- From the balances which are in the hands of the prosecution, I believe the figures can be seen from there quite clearly.
Q.- If the prosecution's contention would be correct that the enterprise had been exploited, now would this show in the balances of the East ern German Construction Material Company?
A.- The funds of the enterprise of course would have decreased year after year and it would have shown an exceptional balance. As far as that goes, if one receives an order to exploit an enterprise and if the order is carried out, I don't think anyone would set up balances or keep books.
Q.- Can you tell us examples of balances for investment in original plants?
A.- I could give you a large number of examples, Mr. Defense Counsel, I would like to give you a few examples here which might illustrate matters. A very large and good enterprise was the brick works at Alt-Krotoschin, which was in an area only ceded to Poland in 1920. In this brick work's we not only had an entirely new steam machine erected but we also installed a new power plant. We also installed a fire place which was working hourly automatically and we had an artificial drying plant. The boilers had an automatic firing installation.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Do you think all of these technical details are necessary, if he tells us in a few words that it was modernized might that no cover it? I am wondering if it is necessary to go into so much technical details. How do you suppose that will clarify in any way the issues of the indictment. I am merely offering that as a suggestion.
DR. GAWLIK: Well, if the Tribunal does not think this is very important, I will not bother about it. However, this is one of the points of the indictment as the defendant is charged with spoiliation in the brick works. Of course, I should like to hear him state what he did actually. That not one nail was taken, but that millions of marks were spent in enterprises. Perhaps the Prosecution will drop this point of spoiliation of the brick works then I will not have to go into detail.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I don't see where this involves spoiliation. What he describes and what he is telling us in details is what the works consisted of. He is not telling us whether he misappropriated the property or not.
He is merely giving us a great detailed inventory of certain factories.
DR. GAWLIK: Well, exploitation or exploitation by spoiliation means that certain things were moved from there, dismantled and large portions were sent to Germany in large amounts. Of course, I want the witness to tell us about that.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Yes, of course, that is most important, but that is not what he was talking about at least as far as I was able to get it. OK. very well proceed.
DR. GAWLIK: I also want to give the witness certain examples, so he can actually tell you all about it and he can give you the description of various points and similar things, also the names of the plants.
In this connection, I would like to show you document 1004, this is exhibit 445, in document book 16, which is contained on page 78 of the German and 80 of the English document book, information which deals with the brick works at Krubin which investments were made in this brick works at Krubin?
THE WITNESS: Regarding this brick factory we have to differentiate between the investment, which had been made with the old brick factories, not mentioned in this letter, and with the new construction of a new brick factory and the new brick factory is the one that is mentioned here. It is perhaps a very comprehensible example to show that I was not afraid of any expense in order to provide this plant with the new developments of technique, in order to make an exemplifying plant of it. In order to illustrate this for the laymen also, it might be helpful for me to say that in this brick factory we only needed three and a half workers for the manufacturing of one million brick, while the normal average in Germany would require ten or twelve workers and in the east from fifteen to twenty workers. This was therefore a point which was very intensive from a capital point of view and at the same time it was provided with all social installations which normally we can find in industry where a lot of money is being earned.
I would like to draw the attention of the Tribunal to the following. For the first time here they are speaking of tunnel stoves which was not only a technical affair but was really a social progress. They were the best that existed in this field. It is a known fact that working in over-heated rooms is very, very tiring. It is also known that workers at so called ring-stoves, as they exist all over the world, is usually difficult work. The workers are working within the stove with a heat of 40 to 50 degree and when they come out of that room on their break they go into temperatures between 15 and 20 degrees. This cooling off of temperature brings certain sickness among human beings. Unless they are very healthy persons. The tunnel stove on the other hand does not make it necessary because the bricks are loaded into special cars and they load them outside of the stove and then they are pulled through the stove automatically. The worker therefore has nothing to do inside the stove.
I believe that is all you wanted to know, Mr. Defense Counsel, because this is the best example I can give you in order to show how the work was simplified from a technical point of view.
DR. GAWLIK: The Prosecution on Page 1028 of the German "The drying plants, with the exception furnished by the German Equipment Works, are completed."
The Prosecution further quoted the following paragraph, "The opening of the plant would possibly have to be carried out by SSObergruppenfuehrer Pohl due to the importance of the whole thing." Furthermore, the Prosecution quoted a small paragraph at the end of the letter, which is written in pencil, which reads: "I cannot participate in the opening celebration," and it is signed by Pohl. I do know from those quotations that the Prosecution thinks this document important, which importance is not quite obvious to me. However, the only way I can understand the whole thing is that the Prosecution understands from this word, which is the German word standing for "Reichtfest", which means in English an opening celebration, and the German word "Richtfest" which also stands for hanging that took place there. I can't understand this document at all under those circumstances.
THE PRESIDENT: Even the Prosecution couldn't be that wrong. I don't think they interpreted it in that way. They didn't translate it that way.
DR. GAWLIK: No, Your Honor. You see I wanted to ask the witness what "Richtfest" is, which according to the interpreter's opinion is an opening celebration, in order to eliminate mistakes, because I simply don't know what the participation in an opening celebration has to do with a war crime. I don't know if it is interpreted literally or read into the record. That's why I asked the witness to explain "Richtfest".
THE PRESIDENT: The Prosecution says it is an opening ceremony, so we will take that interpretation. It isn't a hanging.
Q. Which plant is this one in Krubin, this Brick works .... Krubin?
A. It is a brick works.
Q. During the construction of this brick plant in Krubin was any compulsory labor used or any inmates?
A. No. That can also be seen from Document NO 1292, as contained on page 51 of the Document Book No. 3, that is a letter by Kammler to the Inspector of the Concentration Camps, namely Brigade Leader, Brigadefuehrer Gluecks. This letter or the annex to this letter, mentioned under Point 2, the works at Krubin, and he marked that as an instruction project, completion of brick works. And the following column, in which he is stating the requirements of the number of Jews, inmates and P.W.s requested, no figures are contained. That proves that no such labor was to be requested. In this connection permit me to state how the whole thing came about, namely that Dr. Kammler mentioned this construction project in his list. My firm had their own construction department--
THE PRESIDENT: It isn't necessary to say that. The witness is quite right that no Jews or inmates were mentioned in this document. That is enough.
DR. GAWLIK: Yes, indeed, Your Honor. Do permit me to speak about it, Your Honor. This has been mentioned repeatedly by the Prosecution, referring to office groups, and I want to refute that statement. It may appear from this document as to the Amtsgruppe C if the establishment of this construction and plays a special part,-A.: That is not the case. I had my own construction department which carried out both the construction and the planning, and I also had the construction--- the enterprise in Krubin itself was constructed by a private firm in Berlin, a so-called Kera-Bedarf, which carried out the constructional supervision of this enterprise. The suppliers were exclusively private enterprises. In this letter now I mentioned that the doors and the air conditioning flaps were to be delivered by the DAW, German Equipment Works.
I did not give that order. The individual orders had already been sent out by me to the individual private firms, and Dr. Salpeter, as my superior at the time, however, transferred that order to the DAW, exclusively, German Equipment Works; Amtsgruppe C was not any use to me, however, when procuring the contingents, that is iron and wood. I made definite construction material and got it personally to the plant. Even that I did together with my collaborators. Dr. Kammler had at the time requested a report about a construction project the idea which I couldn't quite see, I believe he used it to make the whole instruction projects sook important, and to show what a large field of tasks he had.
Q. Was there even one single enterprise or plant which was a part of the Eastern German Construction Material Company dismantled or transported to Germany proper?
A. No, on the contrary. They received a large amount of material in order to extend the plant and to better the plant.
Q. Were any parts or parts of the plants at any time removed from the Eastern German Construction Material Enterprises, and transported to the Germany proper.
A. No, even that did not apply to this. Of course it would have been in contradiction with my production order. I can tell you here with absolute certainty that not one single screw was removed from the Eastern German Construction Material Company, in order to transport into the old Reich. Contrary to that we brought a whole large number of materials into those enterprises.
Q. Were those enterprises of the Eastern German Construction Material Company during that time when you were business manager, did they make any profits?
A. Yes, a few plants made profits, but a large number of those plants also had losses.
The total result of the first year, namely 1940, was a bad one, because at the time we had to carry out those repairs that were necessary due to the fact that they were not being taken care of, in the previous years, of course, we couldn't very well activate those things so they would balance, but had to write then off. In the later years the investments which we had didn't bear beyond their fruit. It can also be added that only part of the enterprises were working during those years, because we had difficulties with procuring the coal, and of course we only used the better enterprises and better plants. But according to my recollection even then the profits which occurred were not large enough to cover any of the losses of the first year. In this connection I want to add, Mr. Defense Counsel, that we had a special bookkeeping department for every plant, therefore we had a special result of the plant's production for each individual plant. Now if an enterprise ever were concluded to balance with a profit, this profit remained with the balance and the capital of the enterprise. One should not forget the fact that the money for those enterprises had to be earned by me slowly and slowly furthermore investments took place in the larger plants, which of course had to be paid from the profits. I believe this is sufficient, isn't it?
Q. Were there any profits of the Eastern German Construction Material Company transferred to the SS?
A. No.
Q. Were there any regulations issued according to which the profits of the Eastern German Construction Material Company were to be transferred to the SS?
A. No.
Q. I shall now come to another point.
THE PRESIDENT: We shall now come to lunch.
(Thereupon a recess was taken.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 13 50 hours, 8 August 1947).
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session DR. HANNS BOBERMIN - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION - Continued BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. I have a few more questions about the problem of the Eastern German Construction Material factories. How were the owners compensated?
A. I should like to deal with the question first which would concern compensation for a possible sale of the works. It occurred that some factories were handed over to private parties. Those private parties were not appointed to be the owners but HTO appointed them as individual trustees with the obvious aim of making them owners of the factories in due course. I know only of one case when half of a brick works, that is to say half of the site on which the brick works was located, was sold to a Baltic German. That is to say it became his property. Special circumstances which I cannot judge applied here probably. The appraisal was always done through the HTO and by the HTO.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the HTO?
THE INTERPRETER: It is the Main Agency, Trustee Agency East, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh.
A. (Continuing) The usual problem was how can we compensate the owners for the fact that we used the brick works, or to speak more correctly, how can the owner avail himself of the results of the production of the brick works? As far as the owners were not residing at that location, which applied to most of the cases, the profit remained with the assets of the works. If the owner was among those present I insisted that the HTO would arrive at this regulation. The owner remained with the factory. He was allowed to run and operate the factory, but he had to operate if according to the regulation issued by the Trustee General.