Court No. II, Case No. 4.
THE PRESIDENT: And was delayed at the instance of DEST. Do you imply that?
MR. MC HANEY: Yes, I understood that. I don't think the RSHA had any interest in delaying the release. The report from DEST on the valuable workers was the necessary prerequisite to any delay in the release. The delay was for the very purpose of protecting the drain-off or so-called valuable or specialist workers from DEST. That was the very purpose of it.
THE PRESIDENT: It seems to me that the difficulty of your position is that this is merely a request by Grimm to furnish the names of these skilled prisoners, and then Grimm goes on to say that they cannot be immediately released or exchanged.
MR. MC HANEY: That's right.
THE PRESIDENT: But must find a substitute.
MR. MC HANEY: That's right.
THE PRESIDENT: In other words, that is not an expression of the defendant but of Grimm. The most that you can say is that Grimm asked for the names of the prisoners who would be subjected to this delay. However, I don't want to prolong the argument, but just to get your interpretation.
I don't think we disagree on the interpretation. It's -
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
THE WITNESS: I beg your pardon. May I say something in this connection. You stated what I thought about this letter with regard to the name of Grimm. This man is not the same man about whom you asked me yesterday. It is another Grimm.
Q You knew this Grimm, did you?
A This Grimm?
Q Yes.
A Yes.
Q And what was his position there in Buchenwald?
A He was the labor allocation officer.
Q And didn't reference there to Book I-5 refer to the office Court No. II, Case No. 4.of Burboeck?
A I understood you to say Burboeck.
Q Yes.
A You mean Burboeck?
Q Yes, does the name refer to Office I-5, refer to Burboeck?
A It only states here the man in charge of the outside agency I-5. Nothing else is stated in the letter.
Q Well, but wasn't the man in charge of Office I-5 in Berlin Burboeck?
A Yes, that was Burboeck.
Q And Burboeck was a member of the forerunner of the WVHA in charge of labor allocation in Berlin, wasn't he?
A Yes.
Q Now you testified yesterday that most concentration camp commanders held an SS rank which was higher than your own. I don't believe that's so. What was the rank of Ziereis in Mauthausen, the same as yours, wasn't it, Defendant? Obersturmbannfuehrer?
A No, he was Standartenfuehrer.
Q When did he get his rank of Standartenfuehrer?
A I can't tell you that. I don't know that any more.
Q You never had a rank equivalent to that of Ziereis, a contemporary rank equivalent to Ziereis? Wasn't he an Obersturmbannfuehrer when you were an Obersturmbannfuehrer, Defendant?
AAs far as I can recall, he always held a higher rank than I did.
Q Now, isn't it true that Standartenfuehrer was a very high rank for a concentration camp commander? Ziereis, for instance, had been at Mauthausen for about five or six years, hadn't he, Defendant?
A Four years, as far as I can recall.
Q Well, it's not true to say that most of the concentration camp commanders had a higher rank than you did, is it, Defendant? Weren't there several of them -
A Most of them held a higher rank.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q You say that most of them held the rank of Standartenfuehrer?
A Yes. In part, they were also Oberfuehrers.
Q Now, Defendant, about this struggle between you and the concentration camp commanders. I don't quite understand the struggle, because your testimony has been that you managed to get all these difficulties straightened out, isn't that true?
A Generally, I succeeded in doing that.
Q And, in any struggle, wasn't the Defendant Pohl over here the chief of all these man whom you were struggling with?
A In my opinion, the camp commanders had several chiefs.
Q Well, now, let's not go into that. He was one of their chiefs, wasn't he?
A In one respect, yes.
Q Well, if Pohl told them to do something, they did it, didn't they, Defendant, particularly with respect to food, clothing, billeting, work regulations?
A I haven't quite understood your question. Would you please repeat it?
Q Pohl was the boss of the commanders as far as food and clothing, billeting, work regulations, wasn't he?
A Yes.
Q So, if you were really having any struggle and you didn't succeed in that struggle, then it is the Defendant Pohl's burden, isn't it, Defendant?
A Well, I would submit the matter to Pohl.
Q Defendant, I understand your testimony to be that DEST paid bonuses as early as 1940, not only paid bonuses, but paid cash to the inmates, is that right?
A Yes.
Q Your testimony is that in the years 1940 to 1942 you paid cash to the concentration camp and the concentration camp made this cash available to the inmates, is that right?
A Well, whether this was handled in this way up to 1942 I don't Court No. II, Case No. 4.know exactly any more.
At first we paid the bonuses in cash directly into the hands of the inmate. Later on the amount on the basis of a list was turned over to the camp administration and it was put on the account of the inmates. He could then dispose of this account.
Q When did DEST pay it directly to the inmates, this cash money?
AAt the end of 1940 and early in 1941 this was started. Then we began the program within the scope of the training of professional skilled inmates.
Q Now, your witness Bickel was here and he was specifically asked -- I think by the Tribunal -- about these bonuses and Bickel said he didn't get any bonuses until 1942. Before 1942 Bickel said he had to be supported by help from home, by money, and he was working for DEST in the very early part of 1940. How do you explain the fact that Bickel didn't get any bonuses, if you paid one?
A Mr. Prosecutor, just when this program was introduced in the individual plants, I don't know. It was introduced very gradually. It was used in the granite works and then it was given in the brick works. Therefore, this may have been already in the year of 1942.
Q Well, but in 1942, he didn't get any money. He just got some script.
A From 1942 on approximately we had to purchase so-called coupons and script from the camp administration which were handed out to the inmates. We had to pay in cash for this script and then we had to turn it over to the inmates.
Q You really don't know much about this bonus system, do you? You don't know when it was introduced or how it was handled? That is a fact, isn't it?
A I have told you when we introduced it, we began in 1940. In the course of time this program was developed; and finally in 1942, after the Office B-II had been established, it was taken over there in the form of a bonus system.
Q In any event, they didn't get it into Neuengamme until 1942, Court No. II, Case No. 4.according to Bickel.
A Bickel testified to that here.
Q Now what was your connection with the Slate Oil?
A The Slate Oil, G.m.b.H., which was formed, was to become part of Office W-I. However, this was never done. This plant was not in operation and we did not have a plant manager there. Just how this matter developed later on, I don't know.
Q W-I never took over Slate Oil, is that right?
A No.
Q Even though Schwarz became a co-manager?
A One time he was appointed business manager and he has testified here that he never took over that activity.
Q I am not quite clear about the employment of Jews by DEST. You mention certain Jewesses which were employed in the office at Ausehwitz?
A Yes.
Q What office was that?
A That was the plant office.
Q That was not located within the camp itself?
A No.
Q How far away was it from the camp?
A Several kilometers.
Q Two or three?
A Several kilometers. I can't tell you the exact distance.
Q How many Jewesses did you have employed there?
A I don't know the exact number. I can only tell you from my memory. I can only tell you about the Jewesses whom the plant manager took along when he left the enterprise and whom I saw later at Neurohlau. That must have been 1944 or 1946.
Q The only operation DEST had at Auschwitz was this gravel dredging operation?
A Yes.
A Did DEST employ Jews anywhere else?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A They used them in the diamond cutting plant, Herzogenbusch, which was to be established. Jews were to be used as employees where the machines were prepared. However, this plant was never put into operation, because the raw material was lacking.
Q But other than there, there were no Jews employed by DEST?
A I can't recall that Jews were working in any other enterprise.
Q Did you ever contemplate hiring, or rather, using Jewish inmates at DEST? Did you ever make any efforts to get any Jewish inmates for DEST?
A No.
Q Let us look at Document NO-4341.
Q. Defendant, this is a letter from the Reich Minister for Labor, dated March 14, 1941, to the presidents of the District Labor Exchanges concerning the labor assignment of the Jews. Do you recognize the handwritten note in the upper right hand corner of this letter?
A. No. I can't recognize it.
Q. That is not your handwriting?
A. No.
Q. What is the word or phrase at the end of that handwritten note? Isn't that Mumm, M-u-m-m?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I can't identify it here because it is very unclear on the photo copy.
Q. Can you read the handwritten note on the photo copy?
A. No.
Q. Well, suppose I attempt to read it for you and see if you can then decipher it. Does it say "III A noted for Natzweiler according to telephone information ( Mumm )"? Is that what it says?
A. Can't read it the way it is here.
Q. You can't read it? Have you read the letter?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you approached with the proposal to use part of these Jews in the DEST operation at Natzweiler?
A. I can't recall this matter at all.
Q. Going back to the handwritten note. In March 1941 you were a member of Office III A, were you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And at that time DEST had an enterprise at Natzweiler, didn't they? A quarry there?
A. Yes.
Q. I will ask that Document NO-4341 be narked as Prosecution Exhibit 622 for identification.
THE PRESIDENT: Who wrote it?
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q. Will the Tribunal please, witness, can you identify or read the signature on the bottom of the letter?
A. Second page?
Q. Yes. Who signed the letter, can you tell?
A. No. This must have been an expert with the Reich Ministry of Labor.
Q. You can't read his signature?
A. No.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it was from the Reich Ministry of Labor, from somebody in that Ministry?
A. Yes. I must assume that on the basis of this document.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. And the letter is signed?
A. Yes, it contains a signature here.
Q. Now, witness, how often did you visit the DEST plant at Auschwitz?
A. As far as I can recall I was there on two or three occasion.
Q. In what years?
A. In 1940, 1941 and 1943.
Q. Did you meet the came commander Hoess while you were there?
A. When the plant was taken over I had once a discussion with the commander there.
Q. Was that Hoess or Liebehenschel?
A. As far as I can recall that was with Hoess.
Q. Did you have any dealings with the defendant Sommer in Auschwitz?
A. No.
Q. Did you know that he was in the labor allocation office in Auschwitz?
A. Are you referring now to the defendant Sommer, Mr. Prosecutor?
Q. Yes.
A. I have never heard that the defendant Sommer had worked in the labor allocation office at Auschwitz.
Q. Had you ever heard that he worked in Auschwitz in any capacity?
A. No. I only knew that he was working in Office D II at Oranienburg.
Q. Now, how many times did you go to Treblinka?
A. Before the gravel area was leased I went there on one occasion and then never again.
Q. And when were you in Treblinka?
A. As far as I can recall it was the spring of 1943.
Q. Spring 1943?
A. Yes, the spring of 1943.
Q. And did you deal with Globocnik while you were there?
A. I don't know Mr. Globocnik at all.
Q. Well, who did you lease this plant from?
A. From a building contractor in Warsaw.
Q. Well, you had no dealings with Globocnick while in Lublin and Treblinka?
A. I never had any connection with him in my life.
Q. Deal with anybody on his staff?
A. I cannot recall having ever dealt with the staff of Globocnick.
Q. Well, now, defendant, he was the SS and Police Leader there. He was the big SS boss over there. Now you got your inmates to work you gravel pit at Treblinka from somewhere. Who did you get those from? You got those from Globocnick, didn't you?
A. As far as I can recall we got them from an agency in Warsaw. The plant manager of Auschwitz negotiated with that agency. I think it was the SS and Police Leader at Warsaw.
Q. Was it Krueger?
A. I don't know the name.
Q. Well, you remember when you were proposing that you set up your operation at Roemhild you mentioned the operation at Treblinka and told Pohl how nice the operation was and that you were using inmates other than those in the concentration camp.
Don't you know that those inmates came from Treblinka and don't you know they were Jews?
A. I only know that the workers who had worked for some time at Treblinka came from a labor camp, they were whether Poles or Jews or any other nationals I don't know. This was not evident from the reports of the Auschwitz plant we received.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess, Mr. Mc Haney.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for 15 minutes.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q Defendant, was the gravel operation of DEST in Auschwitz continued up until the time the camp was evacuated?
AAs I remember it, yes. In winter it never operated at all.
Q Did you use any inmates in the operation of the gravel works other than the Jews you have told us about in the office?
A Temporarily we used a column of inmates to build the railroad track.
Q That is all?
A Yes. In the gravel pit itself, not.
Q Do you know whether the workers on the railroad were Jews?
A No, I don't know.
Q When did the gravel plant at Treblinka close down?
A I am unable to give you the date. All I know is that we had repeated transport difficulties there, and the operation could not be continued. Reports sent by Auschwitz on behalf of Treblinka pointed that out.
Q Can't you give us a rough estimate as to when the operation ceased at Treblinka?
A. I think in 1944 it was still operating.
Q. You didn't have any difficulties when the Jews were removed from the plants surrounding Lublin in November 1943. Are you sure that is when the Treblinka Gravel Works did not shut down?
A. In Lublin, I know nothing about it.
Q. Are you sure that the Treblinka Gravel Works did not * shut down because the Jews were taken out ?
A. I never heard anything about such a matter.
Q. Did you have a plant manager at Treblinka?
A. Yes. He was under the works manager of Auschwitz.
Q. And he was at Treblinka from 1940 until 1944?
A. He was there in '43 and '44. It was in '43 that we leased the land.
Q. Now, you mentioned about camps A and camps B in your direct testimony at Treblinka?
A. Yes, I saw that from the documents.
Q. Well, you didn't know anything about Camp A then in 1943 and 1944?
A. I only heard about one labor camp at the time.
Q. And how far was the DEST Gravel, Works from that camp?
A. About two or three kilometers. Then I visited that camp, no dredging machine was there. It was brought there only much later.
The gravel pit had ceased operation at the time.
Q. Did you ever visit this camp at Treblinka yourself?
A. When I visited it, I talked to the commandant in his office.
Q. Or were you actually inside the camp?
A. The commandant's office was at the entrance of the camp.
Q. Didn't you know that Polish Jews and Jews from the east were incarcerated in that camp ?
A. No.
Q. You didn't know anything about that?
A. All I heard was that inmates were there. From what categories they came, I had no idea.
Q. And your testimony is that you knew nothing whatever about the extermination of the Jews in Germany?
A. No.
Q. You knew that they were being persecuted?
A. Yes, and that they were subject to restrictions.
Q. Well, did you know that they were being transported and being placed in concentration camps?
A. As I said before, I knew that the Jews were committed to concentration camps.
Q. You knew nothing about mass transportations of Jews?
A. No.
Q. What about your statement and the letter signed by you, Document NO-1278, prosecution Exhibit 440. It is in Book 16. That is your letter concerning the diamond cutting operation in Herzogenbush and the proposal to transfer it to Gross-Rosen?
A. I didn't hear the last word. Where was it being transferred to?
Q. Gross-Rosen.
A. No, not Gross-Rosen.
Q. Bergen-Belsen.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have that letter before you?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you see on page one of the original where you are summarizing the development, the date March 1944, you state that the Reichsfuehrer-SS orders the deportation of Jews from the Netherlands?
A. It doesn't say so here.
Q. What does it say there ?
A. What it says here is March 1944. The last Jewish diamond cutters have been transported away. I should say first of all about this document that although I signed it, I didn't draw it up.
Q. Just a minute, witness, we are not interested in that right now. Let's get this translation straight. Are you reading from 18 May 1944 or March 1944? My translation has a date of March 1944.
A. March 1944.
Q. And my translation says "Reichsfuehrer -SS orders the deportation of Jews from the Netherlands."
A. It doesn't say so here.
THE PRESIDENT: Let's see this book now.
MR. MCHANEY: Will you pass the German up?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, if this German follows the original, it doesn't say what the English copy says at all.
MR. MCHANEY: Well, Your Honor, I suggest we postpone the question until such time as we can have a photostatic copy of the German brought down. I find it difficult to believe that the translators could interpolate something of that sort if it doesn't appear in the original.
THE PRESIDENT: The entry under March 1944 in the German document says: "Inspection of the diamond cutting works at Herzogenbush by the Reichsfuehrer-SS."
MR. MCHANEY: If the Tribunal please, the only conclusion that I can draw at the present time is that in cutting the German stencil, they omitted one of the notations. Now, the one that you have just read appears opposite February 1944 in the English, and the one which apparently appears under March 1944 in your German copy appears opposite 18 March 1944 in my translation. Is there any notation for 18 May '44 in that document?
THE PRESIDENT: No.
MR. MCHANEY: Well, I must conclude then that they omitted the notation for March 1944.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think it is important now to find out what the original says, don't you?
MR. MCHANEY: Indeed I do. If the Clerk of the court could be dispatched to the document archives at this time and bring back Document NO-1278, prosecution Exhibit 440, I think we could probably clarify the matter.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
BY MR. MCHANEY:
Q. Defendant, we will defer any further reference to that --
A. May I say something about that, please? As I remember it, I believe I once compared the photostatic copy to this text, and I could not find any difference between this and the German text.
Q. We will resolve that problem very shortly.
Now, let's --- suppose we just defer any more comment on that document until the original arrives.
Now, defendant, you know now that some three and a half million Jews were killed in Auschwitz between 1942 and the end of the war, you know that now, don't you defendant?
A. Yes, I heard that here.
Q. Well, you are satisfied that is substantially correct, are you not?
A. I have to assume that, yes.
Q. Yet your testimony is that you knew nothing whatever about this mass murder of people in Auschwitz when you visited a plant located several kilometers from there, when you had a plant manager who was continuously resident there for a number of years, you still want this Tribunal to believe that you knew nothing whatever about the mass extermination of Jews in Auschwitz?
A. This is the truth.
Q. And you also had plant manager in Treblinka for a period of at least a year and a half, and that you yourself used inmates furnished by a labor camp in Treblinka. You want the Tribunal to believe that you knew nothing about the mass extermination of Jews in the murder camps at Treblinka?
A. On direct examination I have stated that from the documents submitted here, I saw that there were two camps there. And this document expressly states that in the second camp which was established later, these exterminations were carried out.
Q. Well, defendant, I just marvel at the ability of the SS in Auschwitz and Treblinka to do away with millions of people , gasing them, transporting them in, cremating their bodies, shipping out valuables, and someone within an area or two or three kilometers of that extermination not knowing something about it, but that is what you ask the Tribunal to believe, isn't it?
A. Nobody told me anything about it.
Q. What was your connection with OSTI?
A. I had no connection.
Q. How is it you ordered Fischer to go and audit the books of OSTI in the beginning of 1944 if you had no connection with it?
A. On direct examination I explained, Mr. Prosecutor, that I did not order Fischer to go. I merely gave him leave to carry out an auditing mission which Dr. Horn wanted him to do.
Q. Well, Fischer states in his audit that you ordered him to go. Fischer was wrong , was he?
A. It says expressly in the document that Obersturmbannfuehrer Mumenthey received the order. I merely transmitted the order on. I was sort of a messenger, nothing else.
Q. I see. Why were you made the messenger in that case?
A. Fischer was a member of DEST, he worked there. If somebody needed Fischer for an assignment, he had to ask me first because the auditing department was in my charge.
Q. Well, did you receive a copy of this audit , this report by Fischer?
A. I did not receive a copy, nor did I ever see the auditing report itself.
Q. You knew nothing about OSTI?
A. No. All I knew was the fact of its existence. What it did and so forth, I did not know.
Q. And you don't know that they were utilizing Jewish property confiscated in Poland, you didn't know that they were using Jewish workers up to November 1943 when they were all killed, you didn't know that?
A The duties and tasks of Qsti were unknown to me. At a later date DEST took over a a stone quarry from Osti through the works manager in Auschwitz, that is all.
Q Yes, I was about to come to that. When they liquidated Osti, DEST took over the Bliczin quarry, didn't it?
A DEST took over the stone quarry of Bliczin, yes.
Q What sort of workers did you use there?
AAs much as I can remember from the report, we had both civilian workers and inmates there.
Q What kind of inmates? They were Polish inmates, weren't they, defendant?
A I couldn't see that from the reports. All it said is that there were inmates.
Q You never made any inquiry into the nationality of the inmates used by your enterprises, is that right?
A Certainly, but the Bliczin enterprise I never saw myself.
Q Never went to Bliczin? You just took it over in the dark?
A No, the works managers had full authority to run this extremely small enterprise.
Q And you knew nothing about this dissolution of Osti? You knew nothing about Fischer's report though you passed down the order sending him there to audit the books?
A What the assignment was about, I did not know.
Q And you still maintain that you knew nothing whatever about the murder of the Jews?
THE PRESIDENT: He said that. That has been his unequivocal answer.
MR. MC HANEY: If the Tribunal please, I have completed my examination with the exception of this document, the Herzogenbosch diamond document. I don't know that I need put any further questions on that; I think the document will speak for itself. The defendant has testified that he did not know of the transportation of Jews, other than individual cases.
I think when we receive the document we can clear up the translation.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q When, where, and under what circumstances, were you arrested after the collapse?
A I was arrested on the fifth of October of last year.
Q Where?
A In Hepen, near Bielefeld.
Q Did you destroy the records of Amt W-I prior to the collapse?
AA large part of the files of the Main Administration in Oranienburg was destroyed in an air-raid early in April, 1945.
The rest remained there.
Q You did not destroy any of the remaining records by burning, or otherwise destroying them?
A No.
Q Where did you leave the records that you last had in your custody?
A Such files as remained behind were left behind in Oranienburg. My personal files I took along to Neurohlau when I received the order to report there, and they remained there. I kept nothing myself.
Q What did you do with your personal files?
A They were left in Naurohlau. I handed them over to the man in charge of Bohemia.
Q Did you leave any instructions to anyone at Oranienburg about the disposition of the records that you left there?
A I gave the order that these files should be kept as far as they were still available.
Q To whom did you give that order?
AAuditor Fischer remained behind, and co-manager Schondorff, co-manager Schwarz and myself went to Neurohlau.
Q Was the camp evacuated at the time that you left?
A No, the camp was in the same status as it always was.
Q And the camp was taken over by the Allies intact, without being evacuated?
A I don't know that from my own knowledge because I was no longer there at that time.
Q How long had you been gone before the camp was taken over by the Allies?
A I left by the middle of April -- Oranienburg, that is?
Q Yes.
A Middle of April. I left Oranienburg in the middle of April.
Q And the camp was taken over when?
A I don't know, I am afraid.
MR. MC HANEY: We now have the photostatic copy of NO-1278, Prosecution Exhibit 440, and I think it shows that the English translation is correct. I will pass it to the witness, and he can verify it.
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q Defendant, what does it say in this letter signed by you under the date March, 1944?
A It says there, "RF-SS has ordered that Jews must be deported from the Netherlands."
Q Now, defendant, two other question. Was your office located in the concentration camp Oranienburg?
A No.
Q I thought that your offices were destroyed -- your regular offices and that you had to move into a barracks in Oranienburg?
A Yes.
Q Well, then your office was within the camp at Oranienburg.
A No, the office was immediately next to the area of the plant Oranienburg.