Court No. II, Case No. IV.
The harsh conditions of work, particularly the class struggle which, since the end of the First World War, led to the foul excesses by the communist Hoelz.
My father, who was in charge of a cooperative bank, and his honorary position as a Buergermeister, and his activities and charitable organizations, gave me my first impressions of social problems. When he talked to me about them they awakened my interest to find out why these things were like that. Any liberal ideas, such as the ones of Friedrich List, who was a hero of my father's, and the work he did, which was entirely wrapped up in the ideas of cooperative bands--gave me many an occasion to deliberate on the problem of how people who are economically unfree could be liberated from their economic bondage.
Then my father occupied himself very profoundly with the ideas of Freiherr von Stein, with all ideas of self-administration, and so forth. Under his influence I opposed any idea of unhealthy centralization.
When I attented high school in Chemnitz, a city which was once so rich and now is desolate since its industries have been dismantled, I made contacts with the sons of employees, clerks, workers, and I saw more of the social contrasts. The work at school itself was confined to becoming familiar with the industries there. We visited large plants and medium-sized plants of this industrial area, and, once again, I had the opportunity of studying the conditions under which a worker lived.
While I was an apprentice at a bank I contacted the clients who came from all classes of the population. I found out about their worries, particularly of the medium-sized and small plants. But I also saw how powerful the big concerns were. I studied the varying conditions of work in the various plants. The desire to improve was handicapped by the absence of funds. People lived from hand-to-mouth.
While I was at the university I studied social questions theoretically and practically. The colleges arranged for a number of study trips of some length in the Frankfurt area to the Ruhr, to the Berlin industries, and the central German industrial area. What I saw at that time, especially about what the model plants did in the welfare work, Bosch in Stuttgart, Zeiss in Jena, and Krupp in Essen interested me deeply.
I was always interested in finding out under what conditions people worked and how they lived, and also the question of how a worker could best share in the fruits of his labor. Therefore, as I studied, I became more and more interested in social questions, and I became more and more obsessed with the idea that charity, even if it is organized by the State, is not the best method to improve radically the economic position of the individual. Of particular importance for my later development while I was an assistant was when I inspected a number of penal institutions which, as I said before, took me to Hamburg in 1928. There are things in life which you can never forget because, they have planted themselved firmly upon your memory. That sort of impression I gained when I inspected the penal camp, and I emphasize the word "camp," of Sarsmoor, near Hamburg. Above the entrance it says: "You must improve earth by man--and then you will improve man by the earth."
Here, for the first time I saw prisoners who were not living inside a prison; they moved about freely in the camp. You could hardly see the barbed wore fence. That camp, and its inmates, did not give you that depressing feeling which you get in a prison with its cells. The prisoners whom I saw there, unlike the prisoners in the prisons of Hamburg, gave me the impression of being healthy and openminded human beings. While I was being trained as a legal assistant from 1934 to 1937 I visited the penal institutions of Waldheim and Bautzen, in Sazony. There we saw the workshops which were part of the prison, and there the prisoner did all sorts of work. They had lectures and discussions, and the men in charge of these institutions acquainted us with their experiences and ideas about penal reforms.
This is how in the course of the years I studied the conditions, worries and suffering of free workers, and also the situation of those people who had violated &he laws of society.
THE PRESIDENT: Would this be a good place to stop for the recess, please?
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats please.
The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. FICHT FOR KLEIN: Your Honor, I would, appreciate it if the defendant Klein could be excused from presence in court this afternoon to prepare his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Klein will be excused at the request of his counsel from the session this afternoon.
BY DR. FROSSHMANN:
Q. Herr Mummenthey, will you please continue your statements.
A. As a result of the impression which I related before and as a result of my own struggle to clarify and solve those questions my activity after that was guided by those point of view. Human beings, were the subject of my reflections free or captive, those people who had been sentenced to serve a certain time in jail by higher authorities, I assumed were human beings and had to be returned to their place in society. How they should be returned to their place in society I dealt with after that. At the time I didn't think and didn't know what problems would be arising later on in my life. One idear gained more and more in brain namely, effective means had to be found in order to prevent them from a return to theirs crimes and they should not be restrained and held as captive human beings but would have to be put to work. It was the only thing to find jobs for human beings who are looking for an honest life- and to put them in a position to avoid the same crimes which he committed at first.
Q. Herr Mummenthey, the Prosecution charges you generally speaking with the use of concentration camp inmates in the enterprises of DEST and of working conditions and working terms which the Prosecution calls inhumane slave labor. The Prosecution furthermore tried to say you are connected with the mistreatment and killings which were committed while working and finally the Prosecutions charges you with the use of prisoners of war and members of other Nations in the service of the armament a crime against the Hague, Geneva and other agreements or treatied.
I would appreciate it if you would make some statement as to this nucleus of the Prosecution's charges.
A. I have already described my education at home which showed me the correct life to be led by any normal human being. I even used that education which I got at home in my activities at DEST. not only in the life I led personally but also on the treatment of that problem which is the nucleuw of the Prosecution's changes against me, namely, the problem of the inmates. It is the Prosecution's contention that with reference to all the happenings of the inmate labor assignments, whether in Oranienburg, Mauthausen, or Flossenbuerg, the business management of the DEST was responsible. Such an idea can only be explained by a somewhat unconscious and conscious camouflage by the withnesses and documents and also by regarding as one unit the SS enterprises within concentration camps as work shops in the camos, and out side of the camps the firms which were independent of concentration camps--firms according by law.
Q. Witness, you are futhermore held responsible fundamentally as the business manager of DEST for employment of inmates. What do you have to say about the fundamental side of this problem?
A. First of all I have to deny this fundamental change as I did the others. I have already stressed the point that the field of tasks and the distribution for the fields of task were carried out in such a manner that I took care of financial matters, Schwarz dealt with commercial matters of the Granite works and Schondorff was in charge of the brick works. The assignment of labor, foremen, technicians, aunillary help, etc., was the task of that agency which had something to do with the planning of the enterprises, with the exection of the plans and the fulfillment of technical tasks. They alone could actually fix the number of inmates ans apply for these people in the shape of a big application with Herr Pohl. After the application had been dilivered they would request these inmates with the leaders of the concentration camps.
The technical charge of the supervision of all the enterprises was not with me - it was not even with my ficticuous title as chief of office but with Schondorff who was solely responsible for that and Herr Guttchen from 1942 for the Granite works. In this connection let me point out that Herr Schondorff on the basis of special permission by Pohl had been permitted to visit various concentration camps and request there the necessary and fit workers who could be used for the labor assignment. Now if the Prosecution used that as one of its main points the inmate labor-- it should not be directed against me. If I dealt with the betterment of general and special condition of inmates. This was actually outside of my competency. According to my opinion I did something there which was not part of my tasks and did not belong and fit into the circle of my tasks to derive from this point a responsibility on my part goes beyond the legal possibilities in holding responsible one partner of a business management for a thing outside his competencies
Q. Herr Mummenthey, you found in fact when you entered the Dest that labor assignments already existed, what was your attitude.
A. According to my opinion labor assignments were directed in line with the labor act dates November 1938 which laborer act had been signed by both Herr Pohl and Eicke who was concentration camp inspectore at that time. What was contained in that labor law in detail I an't tell you today because in my official capacity I had nothing to do with it. Labor assignments at that time and later on ere a matter for administrative department of the concentration camp. I can recall that the labor act since 1938 was changed and ammended and finally in 1944. I can't tell you for sure if the date is correct, it was changed by official regulation in a premium law. I found out about that unofficially at the time I gained a not very good impression of labor assignments. All the necessary files were with the Kommandantures. As a man outside I didn't gain to much of an impression and insight in the files with reference to works management.
As far as that was of importance and necessary in order to prepare release requests and to deal with them. As far as it was concorned with groups inmates I was not interested in the beginning. I saw that the inmate wore several kinds of patches there but didn't pay to much attention. Thing that became important later on was the distinction according to skilled and auxillary labor, and inmates use for labor assignments were designated thus in the course of years I found out that people who had those green triangles from which those BVs developed. Were more excessive in number that red and is proven books by Kogon, Gross and Weiss Ruetell.
Later on I did find out that there were also certain inmates amongst those used for labor assignments who were in the concentration camp or in captivity due to their political opinion and political activity. I learned about the people who wore the red triangle. Men and women who were in the concentration camp due to their political activity or political opinion, or because they had said something they did not think too much about, furthermore, Jehova's Witnesses who were in the concentration camp because they refused to go to the war, all these people were not regarded by me as criminals but only as human beings who had different political ideas, --- that such people should be placed in a concentration camp or an internment camp for a shorter or longer period of time, as it is expressed today euphemistically, to put them in custody, was in the power of the state. If this was justified from a moral point of view is not for me to decide. It may be expedient for the state. The question was if the aim had been reached, namely to change their ideas.
The fact about an internment in the camps as such did not seem something particularly important or something extraordinary to me. As I said before, already in 1928 I saw the work of the inmates in a large camp, prison camp. I knew on the basis of my own knowledge about penal institutions and about the penal institution regulations which existed in the Justice Department, that it was a duty to carry out some work in the penal institutions. I knew about the order which had extended the day to people who were being examined and who were prisoners, not in protective custody, but prisoners awaiting trial probably. They had to do work too. Even though they were persons who were awaiting trial, they had to do work. Therefore I couldn't see why inmates should not also be put to work, which inmates due to an attitude which was dangerous to the state had been placed in custody according - or placed in custody in a concentration camp according to a police warrant which had been issued against them.
Q. Just a moment, Witness, you are now speaking of the police warrant of arrest. You know on the basis of the proceeding of this trial that this warrant of arrest on the part of the police quite often was issued upon certain incidents which objectively seen could not be considered sufficient justification to issue a warrant of arrest. Did you at that time, when you had those various misgivings about those things, did you at any time deal with the warrant of arrest as such, and what was your attitude towards it?
A. Permit me to point out to the Tribunal my own opinion here frankly. At the time I regarded the warrant of arrest as something legal according to the regulations and laws which prevailed at the time, exactly as I can't understand today the automatic arrest which has taken place in the internment camps and I would not regard it as something that is illegal. As far as duty for work is concerned in the concentration camps or working camps, respectively, labor camps, at the time according to the regulations prevailing at the time, I regarded those also as legal, and I still insist on my idea because such compulsory labor camps, or labor camps as such still exist today. For instance, in the Russian Zone, as reported by the papers, and Russia is one of the signatory members of the London Charter, and also one of the signing members of the Control Council Law -- I cannot assume that one of the signatory powers would insist on something that is not quite legal and carry it out. Therefore if today, even today under the Control Council Law there is such a things as arrest due to security reasons and also compulsory labor camps, I believe that those two institutions as such, according to my opinion, cannot be something illegal.
Q. Did you know anything at the time about the systematic violation of law by any police agencies, namely that the commitment to a concentration camp was carried out based on a protective custody warrant, and did you think that those could have been illegal?
A. At the time I knew just as little about those things as millions of others did. In my belief of the integrity of state authorities or state agencies. I couldn't possibly have thought that those things were illegal. During my conversations with the man in charge of this matter, the RSHA Oberregierungsrat Dr. Berndorf, I saw again and again that there were numerous files. I did not see in one single case, nor did I hear one single case where an inmate had been committed to a concentration camp without a trial or without any act which he had committed. I correct that, not commitment to a concentration camp but commitment to a prison. I couldn't have any doubts at the time about the veracity of all those actions.
Q. Witness, did you look upon the Gestapo as a state institution which did comply with the law, or did you have certain misgivings at the time with reference to this Gestapo?
A. I couldn't, I couldn't because the Gestapo office and the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps had been established based on legal laws at the time. As lawyers we had been educated for years and years to being positive about the law in Germany.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Witness, do I understand that you looked upon the Gestapo as a legally-created organization, and therefore everything which it did was legal? Does that sum up your comment on the Gestapo angle?
THE WITNESS: At the time that was my opinion, Your Honor, yes. The Gestapo was created based on the law.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Did you not know of the excesses of the Gestapo that went even beyond their own law?
THE WITNESS: At the time I heard nothing about that.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: That is all. Next question.
Q. (By Dr. Froeschmann) Well then, Witness, you heard nothing about it that already in the arrest and in the commitment to the concentration-camp there were certain abuses at the time?
A. No, at the time I didn't think about it.
Q. I mean '39 and '40?
A. No, I never did think that already when these people were arrested there were certain and systematic abuses of the people who were going to be sent to the concentration camps, and that the use of the inmates fundamentally speaking was not permitted as far as work was concerned. Furthermore, both institutions were organizations of the Reich.
Q. And how did it turn out later?
A. Also later on in the development of the situation I couldn't possibly have a fundamental misgiving against the compulsory labor on the part of the concentration-camp inmate in the concentration camps. The compulsory labor system which existed in Germany even before the war was extended more and more in the course of years during the war. There were certain conscriptions for labor which did not leave a free and open choce to the individual for the selection of his own place to work. Over ten million women at a time were working in the armament industry. The age limit was increased more and more. Women were also used for work. From the sixteenth year on the young people were already working normally.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. But they were getting paid for it, weren't they?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. Well, assuming that it was legal to make everybody work, did you also think it was legal to make them work without paying them?
A. Your Honor, may I come back to this at a later date, because I am going to speak about the entire complex of payment of wages to the inmates later on?
Q. Oh, yes. Before you leave the subject, you said that you assumed that anything that the Gestapo did was legal?
A. Yes.
Q. Well then, of course you assumed that anything that Hitler or Himmler did was legal?
A. According to my opinion at the time, yes.
Q. And that even included Himmler's project for the wholesale murder of the Jews?
A. I didn't know anything about it, your Honor.
Q. Well, are you going to talk about the Jewish problem, as you have called it, before you get through?
A. Yes, indeed. I shall come back to that, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. I will wait.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. Now then, Herr Mummenthey, you wanted to say that if the entire population of Germany was submitted to compulsory labor, then you saw nothing wrong at least in the employment of the inmates, I shall come back to the payment of later on. You didn't see anything illegal in the employment of inmates, is that correct?
A. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And don't overlook the employment of labor in the manufacture of munitions to be used against their own people. Be sure to talk about that.
Q. (By Dr. Froeschmann) Now then, Witness, you had been told early in your activity with the DEST of the categories of inmates they were employing. Now, what categories of inmates were being used there?
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
AAt the beginning I was told by the commanders and other agencies again and again that the inmates used for labor assignments were criminals and several anti-social elements, as I mentioned them before. Those were the professional criminals, BV's as they were called, the people who were in custody.
Q You stated all that before on yesterday, witness. Now, I would like to ask you, Mummenthey, did you at the time in your capacity as the man in charge of the legal department of DEST and later as business manager did you also deal with the question of labor assignment? Did you also deal with the legal point of view of the labor assignments?
A Yes, I did.
Q Who was the man that you charged with doing that?
A That was Dr. Schneider, who was a legal assistant at the time. That was in 1940 and 1941 that I gave him the order to study the entire complex of concentration camp inmates. First of all, from a legal point of view based on the regulations and laws prevailing at the time, and particularly by using the regulations issued by the Justice Department; and to check up on the whole thing. Dr. Schneider did that. As I can recall, he submitted a report to me from which the prerequisites could be seen for the commitments of persons to the concentration camp and the justification of the utilization for work in both official and private enterprises, and from which the legal justification could be derived. Dr. Schneider in the course of his study did not meet any doubtful points about the utilization of concentration camp inmate labor.
Q Now, then, you found out that there were also persons in the concentration camps, which persons did not quite fit in within the frame of professional criminals. You probably found out that there were also Jews in the concentration camp apart from those professional criminals. Maybe you also knew that members of other nations were there, is that correct?
A Yes, it is.
Q Therefore, you admit that. And also prisoners of war?
AAs far as foreign laborers were concerned, I would like to come Court No. II, Case No. IV.
back to Exhibit 436.
Q You already mentioned that one time, didn't you, witness, Exhibit 436?
A Yes, quite so.
DR. FROESCHMANN: That is Exhibit 436, your Honors, in Document Book 16, it is on page 39 of the English, NO-1049.
AAmongst the members there were also foreign workers. I would like to stress the point here that those were civilian workers who were indigenous people and who were not deported or conscripted for labor. The same applies to two foreign workers who were working for the Bohemia and who were foreign.
Q How was it with prisoners of war? What did you know about them?
A I can't remember having seen or heard of a report according to which prisoners of war were being used in DEST. All I know is that in the Bohemia and in the quarry of Mauthausen prisoners of war were being employed or were to be employed; and in the last case in order to educate them. Now, when the witness Bickel mentioned it was also Neuengamme in 1941 that concentration camp inmates were being used, I really didn't get any knowledge about it at the time. Of course, I would not want to deny the fact that it existed, but I would like to point out that these PW's were not used for armament purposes, and their activities were guided and permitted according to international treaties.
Q Witness, now remember, witness, a question which was put by one of the Judges on the occasion of the examination of a witness who came from the plant at Oranienburg; and the question was: Did not the defendant Mummenthey have the opportunity from his office to see the incoming transports of inmates early in the morning, in the afternoon, or the transports which were leaving; and didn't he also have the opportunity to see that PW's were amongst those inmates and to recognize them out of the whole group? That approximately, was the question at the time; I believe, unless I am very much mistaken, the witness answered that question by saying yes. Now, what do you have to say about the Court No. II, Case No. IV.
statement made by the witness?
A In 1944 I was in the Main Administrative Office in Oranienburg, and I was quite often in the plant itself. It never struck me that PW's were or should have been amongst the inmates working there because all the inmates who were working there were wearing the normal concentration camp inmates garb, and also those triangles of various colors, I didn't notice any particular insignia at the time.
Q It really didn't work out that way, that the PW's were working in their military uniforms or were included in the group of those inmates when they went to work and when they left work; but rather the people that you saw before you were all wearing concentration camp inmates garb, is that the way it was?
A Yes, that is the way it was. If they had been wearing another uniform, I would have noticed it immediately.
Q May I interpolate a question here. If you had seen prisoners of war at the time, what would you have done about it?
A Then I would have had to assume that it was on the basis of a special violation of some law, that they had lost their status as PW's for the period of time of their incarceration in the concentration camp, just as it was with some people who would lose their status during the period they were incarcerated in prison.
Q Now, however, if the prisoner would still be wearing the uniform, that is, not inmates' garbs, and if the PW's would have had the initials "S.U." painted on their back, which you saw quite often, I imagine, don't you think that you would have had Herr Dr. Schneider investigate the affair?
A It was my general attitude to have everything investigated which was some how doubtful. I imagine I would have done that.
THE PRESIDENT: Or would you have assumed that it was legal?
A Excuse me, I didn't get the beginning of the sentence.
THE PRESIDENT: Or would you have assumed that it was legal?
A I would have assumed that the PW's who had been sent to a concentration camp had been sent there due to a special violation, not Court No. II, Case No. IV.
as PW's.
THE PRESIDENT: If you saw a prisoner of war in a camp and you knew he was a prisoner of war, you wouldn't have questioned it, would you? You would have assumed that he was there legally?
A Your Honor, I didn't see all those things.
THE PRESIDENT: If you had seen a prisoner of war?
A Well, you can't say afterwards what you would have done in such a case.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think you can. You said that no matter what the Gestapo did you assumed that it was legal.
A That was my opinion at the time.
THE PRESIDENT: So that if you saw a prisoner of war working in a camp on munitions you would have assumed that it was legal, would you?
A Dr. Froeschmann, I didn't understand the question on the part of the president.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q The president would like to know if you had actually seen PW's in the camp would you also have assumed that those prisoners of war were there legally, and that they were being kept in the camp legally I am asking you three points, PW's, concentration camp inmates, and legal confinements there.
A Yes, I would have to assume that.
Q Why?
A Because there were PW camps where the PW's were being kept; therefore, if a PW was taken out of a PW camp, they must have had a special reason for doing so.
THE PRESIDENT: And if you saw prisoners of war working on war material, on munitions, you would have assumed that was legal?
A The moment somebody was committed to a concentration camp, according to my opinion, he would have lost his status as a PW for the period of time during which he was committed to the camp.
THE PRESIDENT: If you saw an inmate using a prisoner of war uniform designated as a prisoner of war, and working on munitions, you Court No. II, Case No. IV.
would have said: "Well, it must be all right, it is legal"?
AAt the time I'd have to assume that.
THE PRESIDENT: Sure. No matter what you saw, you assumed it was legal?
AAt the time I could have the possibility of knowing that a state or nation could do a thing which was illegal and which would not comply with the regulations at the time.
THE PRESIDENT: That's it exactly. The state could do no wrong. If the State did it, it was legal and therefore it was right.
AAt the time we had to assume that, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: And that was your attitude all the time that you were in charge of DEST, was it?
A I didn't approve of everything that was going on.
THE PRESIDENT: No, but you didn't raise any objection because you thought the state was doing it and therefore it was right.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
AAs far as I had any contact with things, yes.
Q Is that your attitude today?
A Not any more. The knowledge of today and the knowledge of the time absolutely differentiates; it is entirely different. There is a whole world between the two.
Q Have you come to believe that the State can be wrong?
A Yes, indeed.
Q Well-
BY DR. FROESCHMANN (Counsel for Mummenthey):
Q His Honor asked how you got to believe that-
THE PRESIDENT: No, I didn't say that.
DR. FROESCHMANN: I must have understood wrong then.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
BY. DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q May I ask you that question witness: What is it that gave you the impression today that many of the things which at the time you considered correct were absolutely legal?
A That was due to the things which I learned now.
Q In these trials?
A Yes--and prior to that also.
Q Thank you.
Now then, let's come back to the point which caused this discussion. You were convinced, in other words, as far as inmates of every category were concerned, that he had been committed to a concentration camp based on a legal warrant of arrest. Now, how was it with the employment of the Jews in the enterprises of the DEST, witness. Did the DEST employ Jews at any time or in any place?
A I know that the DEST was employing Jewesses in their offices, and they were being used as typists in Auschwitz.
Q Were any more Jews employed in any other place?
A I can't recall that.
Q Weren't any Jews employed in the Bohemia?
A No-
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
MR. MC HANEY: I understood the witness to say that he knew that Jewesses were employed in the offices of DEST in Auschwitz. No mention of Auschwitz came through the translation that I heard. In other words, his answer was limited to Jews in the offices of Auschwitz. The translation leave the impression it was something general.
Q Did you understand that?
A Yes, it was in the office of Auschwitz.
Q Were children employed in the enterprises of the DEST?
A No.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Mr. President, I don't believe it is necessary for me to again speak about the small enterprise at Herzogenbusch. I believe that the witnesses Schwarz and the others have already clarified that point to as large an extent as possible.
THE PRESIDENT: About the diamond-cutting enterprises, it won't be necessary.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Very well, Your Honor.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q Now, Mr. Mummenthey, you were taling about the fact that, as far as the criminal and anti-social elements were concerned amongst the inmates there was no reason whatsoever for you to believe that the labor assignment of these categories was not legal; but you also admitted that you did find out gradually that there were political inmates in the concentration camps also which were also being used for labor assignment.
Now, what was your attitude as far as this problem was concerned? What was your attitude as far as this problem was concerned?
A To put political prisoners together with anti-social elements into one camp did not only appear bad to me, but also I had certain misgivings about it because the influence of the anti-social elements was much stronger than that of the political inmates. Therefore, these people would cause damage around them. As far as the political prisoners opposed that, there was a struggle for the power--with the result which were described by the witness Kogon.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
To use political inmates and anti-social elements for work which had nothing to do with their professions before they were committed to a concentration camp-- That is to say, to use them for auxiliary work possibly, I did not only regard as entirely against their purpose, but I also regarded it as an indignity from the moral point of view which was entirely against my attitude and my ideas. At the time I was constantly of the opinion, as far as Dr. Salpeter was concerned I told him that, that such measures as the commitment of political prisoners in the concentration camps was concerned together with professional criminals, and also as far as labor assignment was concerned--I thought the whole thing was wrong. I was feeling sympathy for the political prisoners. Salpeter was of a different opinion, as far as that went. Even the political prisoners, according to him, were so-called criminals of the State. However, in the conversations which I had with Salpeter and in the conferences I had with the works managers, I realized one fact, the recognition of which refutes the statement made by the Prosecution according to which I was acting against humanity by arriving at the DEST and finding that these people were being used as labor, in labor assignments. Salpeter at the time told me in the conferences which I mentioned before, with reference to the reorganization of the enterprise, he had designated two problems as those problems, the solution of which were necessary in the interest of the enterprise.
One of them was the technical problem, and the other one was the commercial-financial problem. From the conferences with Dr. Salpeter and other collaborators, however, I did have to assume that those two problems were actually hiding the actual problem which the DEST was struggling with. That problem was the human being, and this actually brings me to the inmate problem which is the nucleus of the Prosecution's contention, as far as I am concerned. .
The basic problem in the DEST was not of the procurement of the best machines; it was not in the procurement of the best tools, either with which Schondorff or Guttchen respectively wanted to equip the plants; it was not with the foundry which was being built in Neuengamme Court No. II, Case No. 4.and in Oranienburg: