DR. FROESCHMANN: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Let the record show that two of the defendants are absent from this session of court, Defendant Bobermin by leave of court on request of his counsel, and Defendant Volk because of illness.
DR. FROESCHMANN: May I continue with my examination of this witness?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
KARL MUMMENTHEY - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. FORESCHMANN:
Q. Herr Mummenthey, I shall first remind you that you are still under oath. Yesterday afternoon we stopped at a point when you gave us a list of the plants which were part of the DEST and I would like to ask you to tell the court, in addition to what the witness Schwarz has told us about the stone quarries, in a few sentences what happened in the clay pits, even if you are not an expert in this respect.
A. A brick works and a granite plant have something in common. Their raw materials are natural ones. This is a fact which applies all over the world. One must gain the raw material wherever nature has made it available, and it must be obtained according to where the material can be found in the earth. There are certain similarities as far as these raw materials are concerned. Therefore, the difference between the producing and processing methods are of some importance. Every brick works has a clay pit. From there the material is obtained which is processed in the plant. The clay pit, as well as the stone quarry are not plants or work shops and cannot be handled as such. Work is therefore always taking place in the open air, unlike the work in the processing work shops. This is inevitable and applies to any plant of that branch. Furthermore, work in a clay pit as far as the DEST was concerned, was never done without any definite system. It was done on the basis of plans checked by experts and then they were also submitted to the insurance companies for their approval and were checked continuously.
Every clay pit of the DEST was equipped with technical and mechanical installations, as far as they were necessary. The clay was produced by electrical appliances. Neuengamme and Berstedt were the only two shops here, and I remind you here of what I have described before about the peculiarities of these two camps; we had to have special machines here which had been ordered from various firms, but because of the military situation they could not be produced. I remember that Weserheutte, A.G., in Bad Oeynhausen had received an order and kept it four years, but was unable to carry it out because of the lacking priority. The clay was sent to the plant on push carts, first by human hand, later by steam or by electric lifts. Manual work on the whole was done only in special cases. In every clay pit there was a water installation, that is to say, ground water and surface water were pumped by electric pumps which worked automatically every day, including Sundays. The employees of a clay pit in a brick works amount only to a fraction of the employees of the whole plant.
A The clay pit was under the supervision of a foreman who was a permanent employee. He was responsible to the works manager, who continuously kept a check on him. When weather was bad or when it was cold, no work was done at all in the clay pits. Lest the weather would discontinue production altogether in that period, a so-called clay storage room was kept immediately next to the plant, in some cases under a roof, in other cases without a roof.
Q Herr Mummenthey -
A Excuse me, I should like to add something about the stone quarries. The witness Schwarz has omitted to mention something which seems to be important. From the GBI, the Inspector General for Construction, we had received a number of machines which proved their full worth in the plant. They were an American product; by Ingersoll of New York. Unfortunately we were unable to obtain a sufficiently large number of those machines on account of the war as they were being produced only in the United States. In this connection I should like to mention that the GBI arranged for a study trip to the States. Everything had been prepared for studying there the latest methods in the processing of stones.
Q Herr Mummenthey, yesterday afternoon you enumerated the various plants of the DEST. I should like to ask you now to take from those plants only those which will be of importance in this trial because of the allocation of inmate labor, about which I shall presently say more. As I see it, these are the following plants: the ones in Stutthof, in Gross-Rosen, Oranienburg, and Berstedt. Then, of course, there is Mauthausen. There is Neuengamme, which we can deal with very briefly because Herr Bickel, as a witness, told us so much about it. I believe that the Court will also approve my method here in confining the topic to these plants.
Q Please tell us about Stutthof first.
A The DEST acquired these plants in some cases by purchasing them and in some cases by leasing them.
In some cases they were newly established. Stutthof was a small group of plants. It consisted of the clay pit, Reimannsfelde, near Elbing; the plant, Hobbehill; and the brick works of Stutthof, to which I have had reference before. Reimannsfelde and Hobbehill were purchased from private owners. The brick works was leased from the Reich. Stutthof was planned by the Tiegenhoff area, and it was an Oranienburg on a small scale. I therefore at the time opposed both the purchasing and the leasing of those plants. After some hesitation I finally agreed to a short term lease contract. Reimannsfelde was not producing when it was acquired. Schondorff could do what he liked with these three enterprises. They were brought up to date, and a considerable number of new constructions and changes were carried out. Reimannsfelde and Hobbehill only worked during certain seasons, whereas Stutthof worked throughout the year as it had an artificial drying plant.
Q Herr Mummenthey, may I draw your attention here to Document NO2147, Exhibit 30? It is in Document Book II on page 42 of the English version. If you can see any more from this document or give us any comments about it, please do that now. It is Exhibit 30, NO-2147.
A This document shows that the taking over of the Stutthof camp was connected with the brick works. As far as the taking over of the camp was concerned, the brick works was not a necessity because there were only fourteen inmates working there when it was taken over and later on eighty.
Q What about the next plant?
A The granite work Gross-Rosen in Silesia was somewhat outmoded when we acquired it in 1940; and because it had been exploited uneconomically, it no longer brought any profits. The GBI was very much interested in the granite of Gross-Rosen. When the work was being reconstructed, the man in charge was Herr Guttchen as the technical head. With its machines and equipment and the social measures which were taken, Gross-Rosen grew into a veritable model plant.
During wartime production was confined only to the material and products required by the inspectorates, particularly the production of concrete stones.
Among the newly established works there was, above all, the brick works of Oranienburg. That plant, which, in the course of years became a matter of prestige as far as Pohl was concerned, owes its origin to a contract with the GBI made in the spring of 1938, which also financed the plant on the whole. Construction was begun in July of 1938. Among other things there they built a large factory of concrete material. It had twenty-four up-to-date furnaces, four workshops of giant dimensions, with all modern equipment.
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO): Dr. Froeschmann, may I please interrupt you? Listening to this testimony gives me the impression that we are about to audit the accounts and the affairs of all these various industries from an economic and financial point of view, which, as you know, is not the issue in this case. I am wondering if in some way you can't abbreviate all this long story which the defendant witness is outlining. Wherein is it so essential toward the final adjudication of the issue in the indictment? It seems to me that much time is being consumed on details of the most minute and infinitesimal unimportance in so far as the indictment is concerned. I'm speaking only for myself.
DR. FROESCHMANN: If Your Honors please, that is the reason why I ventured to put a brief question to the Court just now, to the effect of whether it was agreeable to the Court that the witness very briefly speak about the most important plant which used inmates for workers.
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO): But where you go into the number of stones and the number of individual bricks, it seems to me that can all be told in one rapid survey of a few words.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Certainly, and before I started my examination I discussed in great detail all this with Mummenthey and told him that I wanted to talk about that with him for informative purposes only because it was unknown to me whether or not the Court was interested in the special equipment which was available in the plants.
If the Court feels that the plants and their equipment should be touched upon only extremely briefly -
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO): I do think that a reference to the type of equipment is important, certain labor-saving devices and appliances to save life and limb. That is important. But he was going into a long enumeration of the equipment, which can't be too interesting.
Q Witness, you heard what Your Honor has just told me. Therefore, let us be brief when we discuss this matter. Let us talk only about these things with regard to inmates and under what conditions they worked in these plants. Let me put this very brief question to you now: As far as Oranienburg was concerned is it true that between 1939 and 1941 there was a change-over from dry-pressing to wetpressing? Please answer that with yes or no.
A That was carried out because the dry-pressing method did not prove its worth.
Q Did the some situation apply at Berstedt near Weimar? Is it true that the raw material there was not particularly suitable for what was called the dry-pressing method and was this plant also reconstructed or supposed to be reconstructed?
A Yes, the same situation applied there. For that reason the same measures were token.
Q What about Neuengamme. Bickel as a witness pointed out to us that we must differentiate between the two phases, the old plant which became a testing station at the time when new constructions were carried out. Was Bickel correct on the whole?
A Yes.
Q Do you also share his opinion that the first please in 1939-1940 was a particularly difficult period of time for inmates working there because a large layer of earth had to be removed? As Bickel told us not for the DEST but by the DEST for the City of Hamburg, is that true?
A You mean the canal construction?
Q Yes, I mean the canal construction. Is that right?
A Yes, as far as the canal construction is concerned.
Q Then I think we have dealt with Neuengamme. Now we have Flossenburg left. About Flossenburg the witness Schwarz has made detailed statements. Do you have anything to add to what Schwarz has told us?
A Experts on frequent occasions checked the German Granite Works and they all said they were exemplary plants.
Q Then let us talk about St. Georgen. I want you to tell me what the so-called Wienergraben was, which was constructed at a later period of time.
A The Mauthausen plant consisted of several enterprises including the stone quarry of Kastenhofen which had been leased by the City of Vienna, and also part of the stone quarry of Kastenhofen which was operated by the DEST. As far as the so-called tunneling was concerned the DEST had nothing to do with it. It was carried out by orders of the Reich, that is to say the Ministry of Armament by Kammler's special Staff, the initiative was with the Fighter Staff, or with Messerschmitt. The subterranean halls were required because of the continuous air raids production above the ground became impossible after 1944.
Q Were inmates also working in the granite works of Rothau/Alsace?
A Yes.
Q Was that of any insignificance?
A Rothau/Alsace and Natzweiler never became very important because the pit had to be opened up first and shortly after opening it up the TVI discontinued this. For the rest Natzweiler was operated only with civilian workers at first and was supposed to continue to do so. Only when workers had been called up or detailed to other duties by the labor office a small labor camp was established there. From that labor camp a concentration camp was formed and as far as the DEST was concerned it was entirely unnecessary, nor was it in its interest. The reason why this camp was extended into a concentration camp I don't know.
Q Then I want to discuss with you now the two installations of great importance to this trial. One is the gravel works in Auschwitz. We can be brief about that. The other is the cinder works in Linz. Herr Mummenthey, is it correct what the various witness have told us here, namely, that in the gravel works of Auschwitz they had a river dredging plant?
A Yes. At no time did the DEST have a sand pit or a gravel pit in Auschwitz.
Q Were the gravel works in the plant independent of the plant manager there or were there close relationships between the DEST and that plant as they had been between Oranienburg, Neuengamme, etc.?
A They were partly independent, particularly in view of conditions in the East. The large distance from Berlin did not permit us to interfere in its management all the time. Also, according to reports and results which reached us the management was a very capable one. There were no difficulties on the technical side nor on the commercial side.
Q In connection with Auschwitz I would like to ask you to tell the Court about your knowledge concerning the groups of plants, Kielce, Pledzin, and Treblinka.
A In its places the DEST since 1943 had leased for a period of time a number of plants in connection with Kielce and a gravel pit in Treblinka. As far as Pledzin is concerned I remember that a high SS and Police leader there complained that the production of the stone quarry had dropped since the DEST had taken over in 1943. That statement was refuted by the works manager Rupprecht as you can see from Baier's reports in the documents of the Prosecution.
Q In that connection I want to put to you Document PS-3311, Exhibit 467, in Document Book 18 on page 62. This is a report by the Polish Commission for War Crimes and it is concerned with Treblinka. What can you tell us about Treblinka? Have you ever been there and what did you see?
A In this report the DEST is not mentioned. In 1943 I went once to Treblinka for the following reason. Pohl had ordered me to close down the sales store of the Allach works in Warsaw and I was to do that myself lest there should be any difficulties. Before that we had received in Berlin a report from the works manager of Auschwitz and a suggestion we should take over the gravel pit at Treblinka.
We had arranged to meet at Warsaw. The owner of the gravel pit Herr Rupprecht met my night train in Warsaw and he suggested that before we reached a final decision to go in there and inspect the gravel pit. We had a car at our disposal. It wouldn't be too far and we could return in the early afternoon to Warsaw. The trip took about two hours, as I remember it. We went first to Malcynia.
THE PRESIDENT: This is what we mean. This is a fair example - "went by car, took them so long, they got back in the afternoon, they went by way of another town." If we could just get him to say that "from Warsaw we went to the gravel pit."
DR. FROESCHMANN: If Your Honors please, this is a somewhat pedantic manner which is typical of him. It has been referred to on several occasions in this trial. This causes him to give details in a broad outline. I did not want to stop him myself but I should be happy to drop a hint to him to be a little more brief.
THE PRESIDENT: Just tell him to hurry to Trelblinka. I know that people -
DR. FROESCHMANN: I want him to leave Treblinka as quickly as possible.
THE PRESIDENT: That's good too. I understand that people are different, that they think differently, talk differently and you can't make them over, you can't change them. I am that way. You can't change me. But perhaps a hint, as you suggested, that we get to Treblinka and back again.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Certainly.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q Mummenthey, please be brief and concise. Don't tell us how you went please tell us what you saw and then leave as quickly as possible.
A I talked to the works manager and the commandant of the camp and inspected the gravel pit early and we left after a very short time.
Then after the collapse in 1945 I became aware of the horrid, significance of the word "Treblinka". I always asked myself how it was possible that when I inspected it I did not find the slightest indication and my attention was drawn to nothing peculiar at all. But from this document, Exhibit 467, I believe I can give the answer in this trial. This document maintains that here had been two camps in Trelinka, Treblinka A and Treblinka B. Treblinka B is named in this document as the camp where the extermination was carried out. The commandant of the camp is also named, Captain Wirth. I had nothing to do with that commandant. The commandant I talked to was called Van Eupen and I remember that name because it was a very rare name.
Q. In other words, when you made this brief inspection of Treblinka you saw nothing of the examination measures, heard anything about them, or made observations?
A. I saw nothing. I had heard nothing which should have made me take notice, nor did I know anything about the existence of the second camp, nor did I hear anything about it later on.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: What was the date of this visit, Dr. Froeschmann; when did he go?
Q. (By Dr. Froeschmann) What was the date when you were there?
A. It was about in the spring of 1943. Yes, I remember it.
Q. Spring, wasn't it?
A. Yes, quite, in the spring of 1943.
Q. Now, let us talk about the last point in this connection. That is the plant at Lins. What can you tell us briefly about that?
A. Many things have been said about that before, and what the documents contain about that as far as contracts or drafted contracts are concerned, they were never carried out. None of these contracts was ever signed. Only a testing installation was established at Lins.
DR. FROESCHMANN: If your Honor please, I might remark in this connection, as far as every single plant is concerned I have obtained affidavits by works managers and inmates. I could, without exaggeration, have produced twelve inmates before this trial who would have testified all in the same way as Bickel did, but, of course, I wanted to limit myself. As soon as my document books will be available I shall submit these affidavits to the Court, and from these affidavits the Court will be able to reach detailed conclusions.
It is a repetition of what the Witness Bickel has said about the plants as well as about the character of Mummenthey.
Q. (By Dr. Froeschmann) Now, Herr Mummenthey, two brief final words about the enterprises of Bohemia and Allach. You can tell us in two or three sentences about that. What were these plants?
A. I think it is important to point out that the DEST had a number of works which did not use inmates. This was the stone quarry of Beneschau near Prague and the Southern Styrian Granite Works of Marburg on the Drau. Both of these did not use inmates.
Q. What about Bohemia and Allach?
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. From what source did the labor come that was employed in those two plants that you just mentioned that did not employ inmates?
A. They were the same workers, if your Honor please, who had worked in these enterprises previously before they had been taken over by the DEST; free workers, in other words, who were residents of that area.
Q. You are certain that they weren't taken from other countries such as France and Poland, Holland and Belgium and imported there, or deported against their will and made to work in these plants, you are certain of that, are you?
A. No, I know from my own knowledge, your Honor, and my own inspection they were people who had lived there, resided there, and who had their families there.
Q. And were free workers in every sense of the word?
A. In every sense of the word.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. There were just two plants that had labor of that kind?
A. As I remember, yes, there were only two.
Q. Will you give me the names of them again?
A. Beneschau near Prague. That plant consisted of about five or six enterprises which were located around Beneschau, and the Southern Styrian Granite Works in Marburg on the Drau, again about five or six enterprises.
THE PRESIDENT: Give me that name, Marburg.
THE INTERPRETER: Marburg, Sir, M-a-r-b-u-r-g, and then the Drau, D-r-a-u, the river.
THE PRESIDENT: The word before Marburg.
THE INTERPRETER: The Southern Styrian.
THE PRESIDENT: That is it.
THE INTERPRETER: S-t-y-r-i-a-n, sir.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. Now, Herr Mummenthey, what about Bohemia and Allach, very briefly.
A. In the case of Allach we had an enterprise founded by the personal staff of the Reichsfuehrer-SS in about 1934 or 1935. The objects of that plant were not commercial ones but aesthetical and artistic ones. The founders quite obviously aimed at something similar to the official porcelain manufacturing plants at Berlin or Meissen. For that reason prominent artists were put under contact. No commercial porcelain was produced, only artistic porcelain. Allach was not a big enterprise which becomes clear from the term "manufacturing plant". In order to broaden production there Allach purchased from the Bohemia Union Bank in Prague about ninety percent of the shares of the Bohemia. Those shares were transferred to DWB later on, and the whole transaction took place before my time.
Q. Herr Mummenthey, what about Bohemia? Just a moment, was that the most important porcelain factory of Czechoslavakia?
A. Dr. Froeschmann, may I just say something briefly about Allach first? Allach used inmates only after 1941, started, with one or two. In the late autumn of 1941 there were about forty inmates. This becomes clear from the monthly report which is contained as Exhibit 436 in the documents of the Prosecution. The biggest figure ever employed by Allach in 1943 was one hundred.
Q. Exhibit 436 is Document No. 1049, and it is in Document Book XVI on Page 39 of the English text. Please continue.
A. The same document also shows, by the way, that around that period of time in the gravel pit of Auschwitz no inmates were employed at all. Bohemia was one of the foremost porcelain factories in the world. It had been built in 1924, and having gone bankrupt several times it was transformed into porcelain factory. It was a spinning plant first. Apart from commercial crockery it also produced artistic porcelain, and in every respect it was a highly up-to-date factory. In Prague, as well as Bratislava, Bohemia had two extremely smart sales shops, which, as I saw myself, became the meeting point of the diplomatic corps in Prague. Bohemia was not part of the DEST but it was for purely organizational reasons part of Group W-I.
Q. Did it employ inmates?
A. Only as the war went on when labor became scarce, unwillingly the choice was reached to employ inmates. From Exhibit 436 which I had mentioned just now it becomes clear that In May, 1942, no inmates were working there yet. From Exhibit 442, the monthly report of August, 1943, it becomes clear that about 245 inmates were working.
May I interpolate something here? When the documents were submitted Mr. Robbins stressed that Bohemia had used 5245 inmates. As he couldn't find the figure in this document he thought it must be in another document, but perhaps I will have the Prosecution's permission to correct that small mistake. Actually there were only 245 inmates. The error can be explained by the fact that under Figure 5 in the report the figure named, namely 245, was by mistake put behind the figure 5, which led quite probably to the wrong statement in the index of Document Book XVI.
Q. Exhibit 442 is Document NO-1002 and is contained in Book XVI on Page 64 of the English text. Now, we have dealt with Bohemia, haven't we?
A. I should like to add briefly that the description given by witnesses Kruse and Dr. Engler about how Bohemia was purchased was entirely incorrect. The witnesses were in a state where their memory perhaps confused a number of issues.
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
Q. Herr Mumenthey, I want to ask you very briefly about the Osti. Is it true what the various witness have told us here, namely, that the DEST had no relations to the Osti, and that when the auditor Fischer was requested, that was the only request which was addressed to you, is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Did you and Fischer discuss the result of his auditing at all?
A. Never, nor did I know that he had ever drawn up an auditing report and had it written as it were in the office of the DEST.
Q. But it is true that the request was addressed to you to borrow or to lend your auditor to Dr. Horn?
A. Yes, the request was made by Dr. Horn.
Q. Well, that concludes this chapter, and I should now like you to tell us briefly about the period of time when the DEST and the MesserSchmitt works, and perhaps the other firms as well, got into touch with each other in order to work on the armament program.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Froeschmann, before you go to another subject, can you tell us, Herr Mumenthey, in what document the mistake about the inmate labor in Bohemia was make?
DR. FROESCHMANN: Just a moment. That is document NO-1220, Exhibit 442, Document Book 16, page 64 of the English text.
THE WITNESS: May I add, Your Honor, that the mistake was made only in the index, in the index of book 16.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we don't pay any attention to the index anyway.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. Please tell us more about the armament program.
A. At the end of 1942 or the beginning of 1943, the Messerschmitt works in Regensburg contacted the plant of Flossenboerg through the Armament Inspectorate of Regensburg, with reference to taking over the production of spare parts. Essentially we were concerned here with corrogated iron which was important for the cabin of the aircraft, also for the fuselage and the wings.
Negotiations were made independently by the plant manager there because there was no time then to have longwinded contracts drawn up. Messerschmitt thought it was the most important thing to carry out the Fighter Program; therefore, an arrangement had to suffice which would permit the most simple methods of auditing and so forth without requiring too much personnel. Messerschmitt supplied the raw material, machines, equipment, and skilled personnel, while the civilian workers and inmates who had up to then worked in the granite pits were now to work for Messerschmitt. This production expanded as time went on, and it continued until the end of the war. In the same manner which I have described just not, the production for Messerschmitt was carried out after 1943 in St. Georgen under Messerschmitt's own Management; and later on, in about 1944, also in Nevrohlau. But there we had only work connected with installations on switchboards; in other words, this was very easy work.
Q. Witness, it seems to me that this description is not that important. You may remember that this witness has alleged that, particularly as far as these armament programs in Mauthausen were concerned, a number of grave crimes against humanity were committed. If I follow you correctly, the DEST put at the disposal of the Messerschmitt Works their space, their current, their electric light, some of its equipment; but otherwise, the whole program was carried out in the interest of the Messerschmitt Works which had its own engineers. Consequently, the treatment of the inmates was really subject to the supervision of the Messerschmitt Works?
A. The production in S. Georgen and Flossenboerg was in the hands of Messerschmitt without any doubt. After all, the DEST was not an aircraft producing firm; it did not have the skilled labor for that. All directives to the inmates and civilian workers came from the employees of Messerschmitt. Both in Flossenboerg and St. Georgen, the Messerschmitt firm had an office which was directed by an engineer, and he was responsible for production.
DR. FROESCHMANN: I only want to state this, if Your Honors, please, in order to have a reference when I shall enter my argument later on.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. Now, what about Gross-Rosen and other words, Oranienburg, which also worked in armament production.
A. Yes, In Gross-Rosen some of the work shops were left to the Rheinmetall Borsig Works who worked under their own directives, and we had nothing to do with them at all. It was simply that we leased our space. The same applied to St. Georgen as far as the Styrian Works were concerned. Here again we simply put space at their disposal. In Oranienburg some of the Brick Works produced shells for the OKH, but I must say we did not have a testing station there. In Rothau, the DEST had taken over work on aircraft engines for the Junkers Works. Of all this, I can say from my own observations and according to the opinion given by experts with whom I talked frequently, that the only leave work of all the work was done in the work shops of Oranienburg. What we could do in order to alleviate conditions there, we did. And I believe that through an affidavit by a former inmate, this will be borne out beyond any doubt.
Q. Herr Mumenthey, this brings me to the end of the first part of my presentation of evidence.
A. Dr. Lroeschmann, I would like to say something in general about all this. While the armament production went on, particularly with reference to aircraft production, I believe that working conditions on the whole became easier rather than worse. This armament program, as far as the commandants were concerned, gave the inmates a chance to obtain a number of alleviations from the point of view of the Fighter Program. To remind people of the Fighter Program was very often sufficient to appease even the harshest commandant. Inmates who worked in these productions were given the same additional food and tobacco rations as were given to the civilian workers. I convinced myself of that. As far as I know, inmates who worked on the Fighter Program were given beyond that additionally, the so-called Fighter Extra-Ration.
This, during the war, was the highest supplementary ration which was ever issued to anybody.
Q. Is that the end of your statement?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, Herr Mumenthey, I have also come to the end of the first part of my presentation of evidence of general observations of the plants and activities of the DEST. I shall now come to the second and last part of my evidence, which is your attitude towards the inmates, measures you took, suggestions you made, and so forth. You know from our conversations that I asked you repeatedly how it was that you of all people, as a leading expert, thought about the problem of inmates. What was your fundamental attitude toward that? Please describe the principles that you followed and the actions you took.
A. I grew up in a poor region of the Erzgebirge on the frontier of Czechoslovakia. There was very little agricultural soil; it was mountainous country very thickly populated, and this lead to the home industry which is so usual in that part of Germany. That industry, although the production there was extremely good, did not really lead to very much in Germany; but abroad, particularly in the United States, they did very well. The popular opinion in my home region was as follows: Bread comes from far afield. The small profit and the difficult fool situation lead to tentions between employers and employees in this part of Germany. On the other side of the mountain, we had the coal mining area of Brix, where the miners for years had lived under poor conditions in muserable quarters and where the owners of the mines lived a good life. I went to school with three or four classes, and from my own experience, I saw under what type of conditions they lived. From my earliest childhood, I saw the suffering and misery of these people.