Q In paragraph two of the employment contract it is stated that you have to carry out the business in the manner of a regular merchant. Does this show that you were in charge of the DWB concern?
A No, this is just one clause from the German commercial law. Every employee of a commercial enterprise who does executive work is obliged to carry out his work in the manner of a regular merchant. For his position in the enterprise and for the extent of the activity this does not prove anything.
Q Did your employment as a Prokurist in the DWB have any legal importance?
A No.
Q Can you give us any details about that?
A The business managers of the DWB, G.m.b.H, could act independently because both of them were alone authorized to deputize. Pohl would not have tolerated it if I - since I held such a low rank would have put my signature next to his. Furthermore, the Prokurists as becomes evident from the document, from the excerpt from the commercial register - could only deputize together with the business manager. That is to say, I could act together with Georg Loerner or when I wanted to sign I could sign together with Pohl. This shows quite clearly that the appointment to the position of a Prokurist was only a formal matter and did not have any importance whatsoever. After all, if a business manager was alone authorized to deputize he didn't have to use a Prokurist.
DR. GAWLIK: For the record I would like to state that the document to which the witness referred is Document NO-544. It is Exhibit 398, and it is on page 70 of the German and page 72 of the English text in Document Book 14.
Q. Now, please take a look at Document NO-1563, Exhibit 392 in Document Book XIV. Doesn't your statement contradict this document, which shows that you participated in the discussions about the balance sheets?
A. No, I only attended the balance sheet discussions in order to take care of the record.
Q. In these conferences were any questions discussed about the compensation for inmates or any other matters which pertained to inmates?
A. No, the balance sheets were just very briefly discussed and the discussion was extremely limited. The balance sheets were just looked over, so to speak. We never could do it fast enough to suit Pohl. He was not interested at all in the figures and he was not interested in profits, because he didn't understand the importance of money. When we talked about the turnover and production, then he was very much interested.
Q. Was the DWB a part of the SS?
A. No.
Q. Was the DWB an SS enterprise?
A. In order to decide this question, it will have to be explained first of all what an SS enterprise actually is. By an SS enterprise I would understand an enterprise where three prerequisites exist: 1, The corporation capital must be within the hands of the SS. 2. Only members of the SS can work there predominantly, and 3. the profit must go to the SS in order to finance its aims. In my opinion, however these prerequisites were not fulfilled in the case of the DWB.
To point 1, the capital of the enterprise was not in the hands of the SS, but it was with the German Reich. If the capital had been in the hands of the SS, then the Reich Treasurer of the NSDAP would have disposed over it. According to the Law for the coordination and uniformity of party and State of 1 December 1939 and according to paragraph 6 of the Executive Regulations, which were issued together with this law on the 29th of March, 1935, organizations of the Party and after all the SS was one of them, could not have any property of their own.
Only the NSDAP could own property, and I want to quote this law.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness has told us what the law is. He needn't read it to us. He has told us what it provides.
THE WITNESS: I didn't hear anything.
DR. GAWLIK: Do not quote the law, but just continue.
A. Only the Reich Treasurer Schwarz disposed over this property. However, he never had that function with the DWB. He even refused to have the property of the DWB examined by his officials of the Reich Treasury. These officials never audited the DWB and I heard stories that the Reich Treasurer Schwarz had refused to do so.
To Point 2, the employees in the DWB concerned were not for the most part SS-members. As far as I can look at the matter today, only a very small fraction of the employees were members of the SS.
To 3, the profits did not go to the SS and they did not go to the partners either. In practice, however, the profits were never divided up to the year 1942. Up to that time no profits worth mentioning existed and in the year 1943 the profits were used for investments in the various companies. In 1944 the balance sheets had not been compiled yet. Early in January, 1945, I left the business management in practice, because some time later I was assigned to a unit in the field, upon my own request.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: For what companies was the DWB the holding company?
THE WITNESS: I wanted to refer to the DWB later on, Your Honor, however, I will answer your question right away. The DWB was a holding company for all the enterprises, where it owned part of the capital. Let us take, for example, Enterprise A and Enterprise B. Enterprise A is a Holding Company. Enterprise B is the subsidiary company. Now, if the shares of Enterprise B are bought by the Enterprise A, then Enterprise A is a Holding Company for Enterprise B.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Now will you please answer my question. Read the question to him again, please. Will you please tell me now what companies the DWB was the Holding Company for?
THE WITNESS: Then I will have to name all the 50 companies to you, Your Honor.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Not necessarily name them, but to whom did they belong?
THE WITNESS: That is a very difficult legal question.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Let me ask you another question. I don't want legal treatises. I want an answer to my questions. The DWB was the holding company for the SS Economic Enterprises, was it not?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Then the DWB was allied closely affiliated with the SS being the Holding Company for the SS Economic Enterprises?
THE WITNESS: The only connection, -
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You can answer it yes or no and then I will let you explain it.
THE WITNESS: I don't think so, Your Honor.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Yes or no.
JUDGE TOMS: The German reporters aren't getting this.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I will repeat my question. Can you hear me now?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Since the DWB was the holding company for the SS Economic Enterprises, wouldn't you then say that the DWB was an organization that was closely allied and affiliated with the SS?
THE WITNESS: The affiliation, I can only see in the person of Pohl.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Wasn't the DWB the Holding Company for the Economic SS Enterprises, the W Enterprises?
THE WITNESS: The DWB was a holding Company. The enterprises which were affiliated with it were called the SS enterprises. That's how it was in my time. However, whether they actually were SS enterprises I wouldn't know and the other people didn't know that either.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That answers my question. That's all.
Q. (By Dr. Gawlik) Witness, what do you mean by an SS enterprise?
A. I have just named the three prerequisites to you. Do you want me to repeat those answers to you once more?
THE PRESIDENT: No, no. We heard it. We heard that answer, the three prerequisites.
Q. (By Dr. Gawlik) Witness, please name an enterprise for which the DWB was a Holding Company.
A. Well, let me mention the Mattoni, AG and it is best if we use an AG for an example and then we try with a G.M.B.H.
Q. Please prove to us that the Mattoni AG fulfilled the three prerequisites. Please tell us whether the three prerequisites apply to the Mattoni Ag, 1. The Capital must be in the hands of the SS, 2, the employees were members of the SS, and 3, whether or not the profit went to the SS.
A. I ask the Tribunal to look at the chart under Office W-III. The Mattoni AG was included in Office W-III. It was an enterprise where 92% of the shares were held by the DWB. The shares belonged to the DWB. The Board of Directors at that time consisted of SS Unterfuehrer Moeckel, and a civilian employee by the name of Wilhelm Reichenbach. Already here at the top level we have a civilian and an SS officer. Both of them together, however, were only authorized to deputize. The personnel did not consist of members of the SS. The plant managers, who were located in the Budeten-District also were not members of the SS, at that time. That was in the year 1942. The workers and the employees were not members of the SS either; in the case of the Mattoni AG the matter becomes quite clear already. The profits were only divided up to 5%, according to the German Stock Holder's Law, which was valid at that time and the regulations which then existed. 5% of these dividends went to the 8% which did not belong to the DWB and the other 5% went to the DWB.
The profits of the DWB, however, were never used to finance the SS. After all, as is known by this time, the Waffen-SS was financed by Office A-I of the Office Group. The General-SS was financed by the Reich Treasury. These matters were also dealt with in the office group by Office A-I. I do not know this for certain, but in my opinion the Mattoni AG was not an SS-enterprise, although I can not claim that this is correct. Now let us take the G.m.b.H. I don't want to mention an enterprise which employed inmates, but I want to take a civilian enterprise, the Klinker Cement, G.m.b.H. The shares of the Klinker Cement G.m.b.H., belonged to the DWB,G.m.b.H. The employees of the Klinker Cement G.m.b.H. and the first manager were members of the SS. The Prokurist and two technical administrators were civilian employees. One of them was a member of the SS. The overwhelming majority of the employees were civilian workers. The Polish and German workers who amounted to thirteenthousand were not members of the SS for the most part. The profits, whenever they were distributed, were given to the DWB. The DWB, however, did not finance the SS. That is my opinion. However, Your Honor, I never calculated about these things during the time I was in office, and I only contemplated these things in the time when I was imprisoned at Minden by the British. Then I began to think over this matter very seriously, and I looked at the legal aspects of this question.
THE PRESIDENT: What did the DWB do with the profits which it received from the "W" Industries?
A In the year of 1942, as far as I know, no profits existed. In 1943 the DWB again gave the money to the subsidiary companies so that investments could be made with it or an adjustment of profits and losses took place, because after the year 1943, according to my very superficial knowledge and I never worked on financial questions after that time, great losses had been incurred. In the year 1944 no balance sheets were compiled anymore and at that time I was not with the office anymore.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you know what a dividend is?
A Yes.
Q It is a profit, isn't it, which can be distributed to the owners of the business?
AAccording to German law, you only have dividends in the case of an AG.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Let's take the profits, whether you call it a dividend, or something else. Did the DWB ever make any profit?
A Yes, in 1943.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. What did they do with it? What did they do with the profits?
A The profits were given by the DWB to the subsidiary companies in order to make investments. These investments consisted of the procurement of new machinery.
THE PRESIDENT: They put the profits back into the business; they expanded. They improved the business with the profits?
A Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Did they ever declare a dividend, that is, pass a dividend out to the owners?
A No, I do not know anything about it.
THE PRESIDENT: Then it is your opinion that the "W" enterprises were not SS enterprises?
A Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, that is in spite of the fact that Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl was head of the enterprises, and every Amt was headed by an SS officer, that is, Mummenthey, Bobermin, Moeckel, Vogel, those were all SS officers, but the business that they managed did not belong to the SS?
A No.
THE PRESIDENT: What did you think they were there for? Why was each Amt headed by an SS man, if the SS had no interest in the business?
A Your Honor, Pohl was a representative of the German Reich as a General in the Waffen-SS. In this capacity he did not act on behalf of the SS, because the Waffen-SS was a part of the Reich, while the General-SS belonged to the Party. If I say, therefore, that it was not an SS enterprise, then, of course, I mean that it was not an enterprise which was owned by the Party. That is why I quoted the law about the Coordination and Uniformity of the Party and the State. That is what we understand by SS enterprises before 1945. Let me give you an example, Your Honor. In the German Reich we had the VIAG, the United Industrial Stockholders' Companies, and they were under the supervision of the Reich Minister of Finance, and the Reich Minister of Economics. If an official, or if several officials of these ministries are appointed business managers, or members of the board of directors in the individual stockholders companies, then we do not only say that this enterprise is owned by the Reich Ministry of Finance, or the Reich Ministry of Economics, but then we must also say that this is an enterprise which is owned by the Reich; consequently, when referring to the WVHA, I say that the capital belonged to the German Reich. Therefore, the DWB, G.m.b.H., was an enterprise which was owned by the Reich. It could have happened just as well that anybody else could have become an office chief; he did not have to be a member of the SS.
THE PRESIDENT: Then the point is that the "W" enterprises were really owned by the Reich, but that they were operated and run by the SS?
A They belonged to the Reich. They were administered by men who either had volunteered or who had been conscripted into the SS. These men were appointed by Pohl, and the only connection to the SS existed in the person of Pohl. Because Pohl was an SS officer, he either used voluntary or conscripted members of the SS and SS officers to fill the high posts in the management.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, all right. The "W" Enterprises were owned by the Reich, and they were managed and controlled by Pohl, who just happened to be an SS General?
A Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And then he just happened to choose SS officers to manage each industry?
A Not accidentally. He did that purposely.
THE PRESIDENT: Anyway, that is the way it turned out. In the end each enterprise was managed by an SS officer under Pohl, who was an SS General?
A I did not quite understand the translation. (The translation was given again). Yes, that is correct. Perhaps I express myself a little more strongly. The business managers did not have much authority. Pohl gave the orders, and they had to do what Pohl told them to.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, but he would put men at the head of the industries who would take orders from him?
A Yes, that is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: Was it just an accident that they used concentration camp inmates too? Well, that you don't know. You do not know that, do you?
A Your Honor, when the enterprises in the concentration camps were established, I wan not there yet. However, I don't think that this was accidental.
THE PRESIDENT: Neither do I. I don't either.
A No, Your Honor. I agree perfectly with your opinion.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q Witness, I understand you to say that one of the component parts which made up an SS enterprise was that the employees had to be SS men?
A If I have understood the translation correctly then your question, your Honor, was that not all employees had to be members of the SS. Is that correct?
Q No. You indicated that, in order to make up an SS enterprise there had to be 3 conditions. One, SS owned, employed by SS, and profits to the SS. Is that right? Any AG enterprise had to have those three conditions, is that right?
A Yes.
Q Well, with regard to Item No. 2. Do I understand that the employees had to be SS men?
A Yes.
Q Well, give me an illustration of an industry that was manned entirely by SS men.
A I don't know any enterprises which were under the supervision of the WVHA where all the employees were members of the SS.
Q Then this concept which you gave us being an AG SS-enterprise never had any practical existence?
A No, your Honor. May it please the Tribunal, I would like to give you an example for an enterprise which was owned by the Party. I want to direct your attention to the German Labor Front, the DAF, which was a component of the NSDAP. The German Labor Front was an enterprise which was operated by the Party and all employees and workers had to be members of the DAF, the German Labor Front. Afterwards they also had to join the Party. That is what I mean when I speak about enterprises which are strictly operated by the Party.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Witness, to these last few questions I want to ask you several additional questions. First of all, witness, how many components were there in the German Wehrmacht?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A The German Wehrmacht consisted of 4 components. They were: 1. The German Army, 2. the Luftwaffe or Air Force, 3. the Navy and 4. the Waffen SS.
Q Is it, therefore, correct that we must strictly differentiate between the General SS and the Waffen SS?
A I would like to point out something else to the Tribunal. While studying the large number of documents I saw that the expression "SS enterprise" was very often used. However, in the economic enterprises of the SS, in particular at the top level of the economic enterprises, there were many men who never were able to figure out the concept quite clearly and never thought about it much.
Q Witness, that is sufficient for me. What was the General SS?
A The General SS was a component of the Party.
Q And the Waffen SS?
A The Waffen SS was a component of the German Wehrmacht and consequently belonged to the German Reich.
Q With regard to the question of SS enterprises, I want to ask you the following questions. When was an enterprise called an Army enterprise?
A I never occupied myself with that question at all. Since you ask me this question without any preparation I don't want to make any definition at this time. However, by an Army enterprise I would mean an enterprise which is directed by members of the Amy, whose capital has been furnished by the German Reich and which only employs members of the Army.
Q Witness, can we conclude from the fact that Pohl filled the top positions with members of the Waffen-SS that this was an SS enterprise or can you name another agency of the Reich to me which also placed emphasis on the fact that members of the SS or SA were to be employed in that agency?
A I can name the agency of the Reich Commissioner for the Strengthening of German Folkdom where only members of the SS were employed. The SS Operational Main Office, the FHA, which was the Headquarters of the Waffen Court No. II, Case No. 4.SS, only employed members of the Army.
Q Can we conclude from the fact that in the SS enterprise and the subsidiary companies of the DWB concentration camp inmates were used in some of the plants, that this is an indication that they were SS enterprises?
A No, the enterprises which were under the supervision of the WVHA, according to my estimation, only employed 5 to 10% inmates while 90% of the inmates would have been taken away from the German industry if we had employed inmates. If I answered this question in the affirmative then the conclusion could be drawn that the entire German industry was an SS enterprise.
Q Was the DWB part of the Office Administration and Economy?
A No.
Q Did the DWB pursue the business policy of getting as much work as possible out of the inmates and to save as many expenses as possible?
AAs far as my field of work was concerned and from whatever passed through my hands I was unable to determine whether such a policy existed. I have already stated that Pohl placed no particular value on money.
Q Did the DWB have an interest in employing concentration camp inmates in the enterprises?
A I can't answer that question at all. The business policy was directed exclusively by Pohl. Pohl never called me to any conferences when this question was discussed. I was a Prokurist in the DWB and the impression might easily arise that by virtue of my position I might have been informed about the business policy. However, no consideration is given to the fact that as a Prokurist I could not exert any influence on the business management. I was a Prokurist and I could only handle legal matters for the DWB, G.m.b.H. My field of tasks was limited to such an extent that I was unable to get any insight into the general business policy. I have stated explicitly that I had to handle the tasks of the enterprise with a limited liability, G.m.b.H, that is to say that fundamentally I was not working for the concern.
Q When was Staff W established?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Staff W was established in my opinion in the middle of 1941.
Q Is it therefore correct to say that Staff W existed already before the WVHA was established?
A Yes.
Q At the time was Office Group W already in existence?
A Office Group W was not in existence. We already had W offices at the time but our office group was established when the WVHA was founded in the year 1942.
Q Please take a look at Document Book 14 on page 82. Your Honors, that is page 85 in the English text of Document Book 14. It is Document NO 854, Exhibit 401. Is the description in this document about the functions of Staff W correct?
A This business order bears the date of 24 November 1944.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Gawlik, it is perfectly clear that this order of procedure never went into effect. It was announced in November 1944, was to be effective 4 January 1945, but they never got around to it. So, don't waste much time on it.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, I shall now go on to the next point.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Please explain to the Tribunal the organization of Staff W.
A Staff W was organized in the following manner: The chief of Staff W had to deal with the finance, tax and organizational matters and had to consult Pohl in these matters. This task was the most important one according to the way it had to be carried out and according to its extent. Under the Chief of Staff W or, later on, the Chief W, there were four smaller departments. They were Department 1 - Taxation and Finance Matters. It was directed by Dr. Wenner and he, therefore, worked together very closely with Dr. Hohberg and later Oberfurhere Baier.
Department 2 was the legal department. I was in charge of it, and besides one legal expert for a short time I also had another legal expert working there. In short, there were two lawyers there for a certain period of time.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q When did you go in to Staff W?
A I entered Staff W in the year 1941. That was when I returned from Prague. It was approximately on the 20th or the 21st of July, 1941, Your Honor.
In 1941 the staff was already organized in exactly the same way as it was after the establishment of WVHA. I shall refer to that later on.
I was in charge of Department 2. I had two legal experts, and for a short time, I had a young assistant.
Department 3 was the Administrative Department, which, however, was only competent for the top level enterprises, in this case, the G.m.b.H.
Then we had Department 4 which was the so-called Auditing Department. It carried out the auditing of the subsidiary companies and also of the holding companies.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Was Staff W identical with the DWB?
A No, the concept Staff W included much more than the concept DWB, GMBH. In Staff W there were several other companies incorporated and they were directly subordinated to Pohl. They were not subordinated to Staff W.
Count No. II, Case No. 4.
The employees of several of these enterprises also were members of Staff W. These were all the employees who lived or worked in the same group of buildings where Staff W was located. That is to say, the Building and Real Estate, GMBH, and the Cooperative House and Home Building, GMBH. That is also shown on page 117 of Document Book 14. It is paragraph 1, the second sentence, and the following is stated here. It is on page 117 in the German text. It is document NO-2178. I don't have the Exhibit number, Your Honor.
Q It is Exhibit 403.
A I quote the second sentence:
"Henceforth the administration and all employees of the Building and Real Estate GMBH, and the Cooperative House and Home Building GMBH, Dachau, belong wholly to Staff W."
Therefore, if no special regulation had been issued to that effect, then, of course, they would have belonged to Staff W already before. The document bears the date of the 1st of July, 1943. The German Heilmittle GMBH did not belong to Staff W. It was located in Prague, and later on, the Osti did not belong to Staff W, either.
I want to refer to this more in detail later on.
In my opinion, the business order also proves what I have just stated. It is in Document Book 14 on page 85 of the German Text. It is document NO-854.
Q Exhibit 401.
AAnd I want to quote Paragraph 10:
"The Prokurists and employees of the DWB also belong to Staff W."
This statement makes it quite clear that Staff W included more than just the employees of the DWB. Also, with regard to the field of tasks, a difference existed. Staff W did not direct the enterprises, but it only carried out a consulting activity. Other companies approached Staff W - let us say like a general director used the employees of a holding company for his consultation and he also consulted with persons who are outside of this holding company, let us say, business men or legal experts who have special experience in the economic field.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q You have already stated that since August or September, 1941, you were a member of Staff W. What position did you occupy in Staff W?
A First of all, I was a legal collaborator. When Staff W was divided up into various departments, I was put in charge of the Legal Department since I was the only legal expert. At that time, no legal expert was subordinated to me. As I have already stated, in the year 1942, a second legal expert was added because I was unable to handle all the work by myself. In the year 1942 I became the personal consultant of Pohl. I want to go into detail about that question later on.
Q Did you have any disciplinary authority?
A No.
Q Could you give any military instructions to your collaborators?
A No.
Q Can you give us the reasons for that?
A When I came to Staff W I was an Untersturmfuehrer, a Second Lieutenant. I received this rank because of my education. Some time later on, I became a 1st Lieutenant, an Obersturmfuehrer. That was in the year 1941. I received my last promotion in the year 1942. At that time I became a Hauptsturmfuehrer which corresponds to the rank of a Captain. My collaborators were Hauptsturmfuehrers, Obersturmfuehrers, and, in my department, the other legal expert was also a Hauptsturmfuehrer. Therefore, since I held the same rank as he, I could not give him any military orders. Dr. Hohberg, the Chief of Staff W, I could not give orders to because he was a civilian employee. Baier was an Oberfuehrer and he held a very high rank. I certainly could not give him any military orders.
Q What were the tasks of the Legal Department when you were working there?
A The Legal Department had the task to carry out all notary tasks and to prepare them. It had to prepare various resolutions of stockholders and it had to prepare the stockholders' meetings of the AG. Furthermore, it had to handle all legal affairs for the DWB, GMBH. That is to say, it did not do that for the concern. It also had to work on the various contracts. It had to deal with all the legal matters of the enterprises Court No. II, Case No. 4.which did not possess their own legal departments.
It also had to mediate for the employees and it had to deal with working conditions and it had to negotiate with the Reich agencies. It only did that work on behalf of the employees - that is to say, the free civilian workers, and it also had to work out their contracts. It had nothing to do with the working conditions of the inmates. In order to make the matter clear to the Tribunal, I would like to discuss a document which shows the work of the Legal Department very clearly. This is Document NO-1039 in Document Book 14.
Q Your Honor, it is Exhibit 384 and is on page 19 of the English text in Document Book 14.
A This document bears the title "Unfinished Works of Staff W", and now I want to quote from Article 2:
"The transfer of the trusteeship to some other trustee in case of death of Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl must be set forth by a will."
"5. The approval of the Reich Minister of Economics must be requested for the increase of the various capitals of the branch-associations of the DWB."
"8. The property 171a Hohenzollerndamm which was acquired by the chemist van den Berg, carries a National Emigration Tax mortgage, the amount of money for it was deposited with a notary. Redemption of this mortgage is to be demanded."
"10. With regard to the stop of contracts for exclusion of profits provided by the Reich Finance Ministry, it is recommended to conclude the contract for exclusion of profits between DWB - Clinker Cement Company at Golleschau before the end of the year."
"11. A great number of contracts for members of the boards of directors and business managers are not yet concluded or must be renewed."
"25. Ehrenburg's property statement must be made very soon. Ehrenburg lives on the premises at Berlin-Wannesee, 27/29 Hugo-Vogelstreet without paying any rent, while all the expenses are being borne by the DWB."
These approximately are the tasks of the Legal Department.
A typical example is contained in one document - that is on page 29 Court No. II, Case No. 4.to 32 of the German text in Document Book 14.
It is Document NO-1261.
Q Exhibit 385, Your Honor.
A This document gives a typical example and it shows the procedure of the Legal Department. On the basis of organizational changes, suggestions were made by the Legal Department to Pohl for the appointment and dismissal of various people and the Chief of Staff W Hohberg would list the name and then a legal draft would be sent to Pohl. Negotiations were prepared. The notary and not the legal department then carried out this legal act. Therefore, the document states literally in paragraph 2:
"I ask you, Gruppenfuehrer, to decide whether you agree to the following proposals so that I can make arrangements with a notary."
I could not carry out the negotiations because a notary is required according to German law. According to German Law, only through notaries can business managers, be appointed and a notary public is required to carry out the legal functions.
THE PRESIDENT: We'll take the usual recess.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. The Prosecution has described you as a legal expert on Staff W. Is that a correct designation?
A. I don't know what the Prosecution means by that. Under German law you mean by that a man who comments on laws and interprets them. I had nothing at all to do with such questions, because I only was concerned with questions of civil law in business matters. Pohl had a number of other legal experts of a higher rank, such as in the Reich Sector, which are Office Groups A through D, he had the Chief of the Legal Department A-III SS Oberfuehrer Dr. Salpeter. His rank was equivalent to that of a colonel; then for a time, Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Bartlness, who advised him in party matters, that is to say, in matters pertaining to the Allgemeine SS. He was also advised by Attorney Dr. Wilhelm Schneider, who as an SS Sturmbannfuehrer and a staff officer. For some time he had SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Stock, an attorney who wore the golden party badge, and he advised him on legal matters. As far as court matters were concerned, SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. SchmidtKlewenow was responsible, who has been here as a witness.
Q. Did you have the authority to issue orders to the various offices of Office Group W, or the various companies which were part of the DWB?
A. No.
Q. Were you able to issue military orders to the various office chiefs?
A. No.
Q. Perhaps you can explain this on the chart which is here on the wall.
A. In Office W-I, we had as Office Chief, SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Mummenthey. I was Hauptsturmfuehrer. Mummenthey was Lt. Colonel. Of course, I couldn't give him any orders. Dr. Bobermin was Chief in Office W-II. He was of a higher rank and I couldn't give him any or ders.
In W-III there was Moeckel. He was a Senior Colonel. I wonder what would have happened to me if I had given him an order. In office W-IV, we had Sturmbannfuehrer Opperbeck, who was a staff officer and then it says Dr. May, but he was one rank above me. In V was SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Vogel. He was a Lt. Colonel and I was a captain. I couldn't tell him anything. In W-VI there was SS Sturmbannfuehrer Lechler, who was a staff officer. SS Sturmbannfuehrer Mischke was a staff officer and SS sturmbannfuehrer Klein was at last with the Allgemeine SS in the rank of a Lt. Colonel. I couldn't tell him anything. From that list it becomes unequivocally clear that I could not tell these office chiefs anything.
Q. Did you have any influence on the business management of the companies under the DWB?
A. No, first of all, as I have explained, I had nothing to do with business management. I only had to deal with legal matters. Secondly, as I said just now, the business managers had a higher rank than I had and they wouldn't have let me tell them about their business.
Q. Were you at one time Chief of Staff W?
A. No.
Q. Please look at a document in Document Book XIV, which is on page 117. If it please the Tribunal, it is in the English Document Book on page 135. It's the Document NO-2178, which is Exhibit 403. Does this letter not contradict your testimony which you gave us just now?
A. No. Dr. Hohberg, before he was called up to the Wehrmacht, had a month's leave. On the 30th of June, 1943, he left us. Oberfuehrer Baier started his duties only on 1 August, 1943, or was to start his work on that date, but as he had to do the auditing in the administrative school, he couldn't start before. Pohl called together all employees of Staff W and told them this: "Now that Dr. Hohberg has left us Standartenfuehrer Baier takes over the leadership of Staff W. Up to that day day, Dr. Volk will handle the business so that somebody is there who keeps things going."