The propaganda also told us these things in word and in writing. They even showed us films about that. The inmates, as far as I was concerned, were people who had broken laws and who in a legal manner had lost their liberty. Of course, I felt human pity for them, but I only felt sorry for them because their liberty had been taken away from them. Otherwise, I had no reason to feel sorry for them, because I always had the impression that they were treated very well.
Q. Witness, we shall refer to the question of inmate labor again later on. Will you please describe to us briefly how you yourself came into closer contact with the inmates and when this happened for the first time?
A. As director of the school, I had always refused to use concentration camp inmates for necessary work which had to be carried out at school. I only did this for the reason that I did not like the idea personally of having people who were not at liberty around me. And I did not consider the use of inmate labor appropriate at a training school. Up to the year 1941 I was able to carry out those plans. I had employed charwomen and from time to time I would employ free workers whenever it became necessary. In the year 1941 the school was enlarged and I needed skilled craftsmen and other workers. Because of the lack of workers I was unable to procure this labor from the Labor Office. My administrative officer told me at that time that it was impossible to have this work carried out unless we employed concentration camp inmates, and finally I agreed to use inmates and to request inmates for daily work at the school, after having been unable to do this so far for the reasons which I have already mentioned.
THE PRESIDENT: We will take a recess, please.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. KLINERT (Counsel for defendant Bobermin): May it please the Court, I would like to make the request to excuse the defendant Bobermin from tomorrow's session in order to prepare his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: Defendant Bobermin has permission to be absent from tomorrow's session of court at the request of his counsel.
HANS BAIER - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION - Continued BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. Witness, we stopped at the point before the recess where you touched upon the question of when you came into closer contact with the inmates for the first time, and you had told us that at the administrative school in Dachau in 1941 you employed a few inmates. I would now like you to continue this description briefly and tell us with a few words whether there you took care of these inmates and what your contact with them was.
A. The inmates were employed in the kitchen. They were employed as assistant cooks, as craftsmen, and to clean up. As a rule I did not have very close contact with them, but I talked to them occasionally and asked them if they had any complaints. They said no. They said that they had a good time at that school, and they had additional food. They felt quite happy at the school. The working hours were adequate. In the morning they started their work. They had an adequate interval for lunch, and in the late afternoon they went back to the camp. I think it is out of the question for a prisoner in an official prison to lead the same pleasant life that these inmates did in our school. I know that they liked their work.
Q. Did you otherwise have contact with inmates through your family?
A. Yes. I lived on a piece of land which belonged to the Reich, and I had a small house there. For the reason which I mentioned before, namely, to employ workers who were not free, I, unlike others in my position - SS members of the same settlement - refused at the beginning to employ inmates for personal purposes, but when in 1940 my wife suffered from a difficult birth and became unable to work and I had to spend more and more time at the school, in 1941 I decided to use inmates for my garden.
Q. Excuse me, witness. You meant 1941, didn't you?
A. 1941, yes, of course.
Q. Pray continue.
A. Three of them arrived, and I may say that these inmates, who had only to look after my garden, lived a very good life in my house and were practically members of my family. My garden was about 800 meters square, and a lawn made up large parts of it. One person would have been quite adequate to look after the garden, but I sensed once they had started their work that they liked this work, and so I left the three of them there.
Q. Did you feed these inmates?
A. No, I did not feed them. They were given their food in the camp and were also given additional rations because gardening was regarded as heavy work. Nevertheless, they received additional food on occasion because a meal cooked by a housewife is different from food cooked in the camp. This did not happen because the inmates were hungry or because they said they wanted something, but I felt the desire, and so did my wife, to do something kind for the inmates. When they were ill, we gave them drugs and things.
Q. Witness, one more question about that: I suppose that you talked to these inmates and informed yourself how they were treated in the camp. Did you do that?
A. Yes.
Q. What were the answers that you received?
A. There was never a negative answer, and I know that the inmates were well fed, because I could see that. In the case of one inmate, I heard that they received parcels occasionally. I know from my youngest daughter who talked in the morning to the inmate and she told me that he had given here some drops that must have come from the Red Cross parcel.
Q. Herr Baier, we talked about the fact that your activity in Dachau was interrupted by your training courses which you gave in Berlin. Those, you said, came to an end roughly by Christmas 1939. You went back to the school. Did anything change now in the structure of your school?
A. Yes, something did change, as until the outbreak of war we only gave lessons in one form because we did not have enough space in 1940 to do more, but when the school reopened in January, 1940, I received the first full-time teachers, and, of course, from then onwards the main point of our teaching wax the was effort. To put it briefly this meant that the main emphasis was being laid on the specific administrative matters and less on general education. Other changes did not occur, but as time want on after '41 the school grew, and one should remember that this school was the only one of its kind.
Q. Witness, as a Kapitaenleutnant, Lieutenant Commander of the administration, which is the same rank as a captain in the Wehrmacht, you joined the Waffen-SS, and you became a Hauptsturmfuehrer. Is that the same rank?
A. Hauptsturmfuehrer is the same thing as a captain. It is correct that I went over as a Hauptsturmfuehrer to the Waffen-SS. I kept my rank. In other words, I did not improve or lose any money by the transfer, but I gained an activity which was to my liking.
Q. How many pupils went through your school or the courses you hold? Please give me a rough figure.
A. Between '37 until I left the end of '43, about 1800. They were on the upwards scale.
Q. Witness, the indictment does not say quite clearly, but let us suppose that from your activity with the school for admin istrative leaders the conclusion might be made that the training was done therein order to realize the so-called criminal aims of the SS.
Did you at any time hear of anything which, according to general moral principles, were criminal aims during you activities with the SS and with the school in particular?
A Neither with the SS nor with the school in particular, nothing of that happened. The SS was described to us always as the crack unit of Germany, and I saw no reason to have any doubts, especially as the official instructions and orders which reached me for my work, particularly in the school, were always unequivocally correct and morally above reproach.
THE PRESIDENT: May I interrupt to ask a question?
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. With reference to the inmates that worked at the school in the kitchen or in the garden, what nationality were they?
A. They were Germans and foreigners. The foreigners included two Poles, as I remember it.
Q. What other nationality?
A. Others I am afraid I don't know.
Q. Germans and Poles?
A. Yes.
Q. Here they brought to the school from the concentration camp under guard?
A. Yes.
Q. In a motor vehicle?
A. No, they walked. The distance was about quarter of an hour.
Q. Quarter of an hour?
A Quarter of an hour, yes.
Q. Did the guards carry guns?
A. No, they did not carry guns. They only had the usual SS uniform which included a gun, a revolver.
Q. They were armed?
A. Yes, they were armed.
Q. Did you pay anybody for the work of these inmates?
A. No, but the school paid to the Reich the condensation for the work done by the inmates, and I don't think the concentration camp paid the inmates anything for their work.
Q. Well, did you pay for the gardeners?
A. The gardeners were part of the detachment working at the school. I myself did not pay anything for the gardeners.
Q. But the school paid somebody, you think it was the Reich?
A. Yes to the Reich, to the concentration camp.
Q. Well, how did you think the Polish inmate got into the camp did he tell you what he was there for?
A. No, I didn't discuss it with him?
Q. Well, were you curious; did you wonder how a Polish person got into a German concentration camp?
A. As I said, I did not discuss it with him, your Honor. I know that Poles were there, and all I could imagine was that some political reason would apply why these Poles were in custody. What the reasons were I did not know?
Q. And you never asked?
A. I did not discuss it. For reasons of humanity I didn't ask any questions. I knew I couldn't change the fact he was there. I could only treat him well, but I could not change anything in his fate. I attempted to do it once. I wanted to get him out of the concentration camp, and I went myself and saw the commandant. I looked at the file. I still remember the number. It was 11084. And I asked him if it wouldn't be possible for this man to be released, and the commandant contacted the agencies of the RSHA but was told it was mot possibles.
If I read the documents today I can well imagine that it wasn't possible, but I did not know it at the time.
Q. Did the commandant tell you -- Are you talking about the Pole now, the Polish man?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Did the commandant tell you why he was in the concentration camp? He showed you the record, you say.
A. The record showed nothing about the reason why the man was in custody. It was a very thin file. My impression was it was a camp record, not the record of the RsHA, purely a file which concerned the camp.
Q. There was nothing in the man's camp record to show why he was there?
A. No, I didn't see anything. Otherwise I would know it.
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. Witness, now I would like to leave the school. In August, 1943, you joined the WVHA on order. Is the date correct?
A. Yes, 9 August 1943 I started my service.
Q. Was this transfer a sudden one or had you been warned beforehand?
A. This transfer to the WVHA by order came somewhat surprisingly. I should give a detailed explanation about this. Defendant Pohl said on the witness stand that I went to Berlin against my will. The same was stated by Defendant Frank on the witness stand. As I said before, I was particularly keen on teaching but for reasons of my parents' lack of money I was prevented to satisfy that desire. How that the dream of my youth had come true in the first years of my membership of the SS I had built up the administrative school. I led it, and during that time nothing negative occurred at all.
My immediate superior during most of the time during my activities as the commanding officer was Defendant Frank.
Since roughly autumn 1942 I received reports from which I had to deduce that plans were afoot which aimed at a change in this position. Also I had the feeling that people no longer were satisfied with my work. The work had nothing to do with the SS. It was purely military administrative activities. This caused me in autumn 1942, without having been asked to go so, to go to Berlin and report to my superior, Pohl, in order to make inquiries as to his intentions, to become able to receive sufficient clarity about this. I heard that the intention existed to turn over the school to a troop officer, which would eliminate me automatically.
A. (continued) At the same time the defendant Frank stated that I was no soldier. Now, after thirty years of honest work I suddenly had to regard myself as unqualified. Of course, in the suitable manner I reported to the defendant Pohl, particularly as regards to the fact that he had once had me transferred to the Verfuegungstruppe from the Navy. But, I was told there was a War on and as a soldier I had to follow such orders as night come along.
Q. Why did you not take the consequences? You had been hired, as you called it, expressly for the school.
A. I would like to say here with emphasis that in peace time I would have taken the consequences and left the service. Furthermore, I was to be put under a 16 years younger SS leader. He was the son of the co-defendant Fanslau and I was a particularly provocative comment on my work in this.
Q. Was there any mention at that time of transfer to WVHA?
A. No, not at that time no transfer was alluded but no definite result was reached either from which one could see what was going to happen. Some rumors began to circulate that I would be transferred away from the school and then shortly after that the defendant Pohl visited us and he told no that he needed an auditor for the WVHA and he had "ear marked" me for that position. I asked Pohl thereupon for old times sake not to do that and leave no in my school and with my family. Pohl refused to do that.
Q. Did he give you a reason?
A. No, he emphasized that there was a military necessity for this. On the witness stand the defendant Pohl said that I had joined the WVHA against my will. He also said it happened that I would become an auditor with the WVHA. Frank said on the witness stand the thing had been done so that a troop officer could take over the school.
The real reason I do not know to this day. But both reasons might have co-existed at the time.
Q. How did you join the WVHA? Were you invited to do so in a letter?
A. No. No such letter reached me. I was informed orally. I was ordered one day to report on 9 August 1943 in order to start my service with the WVHA, office group W, Staff W.
Q. When you received that order did you know what task was waiting for you?
A. No, I had no possibility of knowing that. All I knew was that I was going to be an auditor. Otherwise I merely knew that the WVHA as the name says, was looking after the economic administration of the Waffen-SS.
Q. Witness, was that activity which you did for the WVHA similar to the field of task which was mentioned to you?
A. Yes, on the whole certainly. I had to do a certain amount of work which was familiar to me from my old position as a financial inspector and auditor with the Finance Office-taxation and auditing matters. In addition to that, however, were certain special orders which were not compatible with that scheme.
Q. I shall not discuss with you again the organization of the WVHA and shall forthwith turn to Staff W. Please tell us first how many people worked in Staff W?
A. When I joined Staff W the personnel amounted to a total of 20 people, including civilian employees. When the auditing department was built up it increased 26, 27, 28 perhaps and towards the end of the War there were about 24 as some people had been transferred to the front.
Q. You were to work as an auditor, you tell us. Now when you reported to Pohl he must have given you a special order.
What did he tell you?
A. Pohl's orders existed in the fact to ask me to establish an auditing department for internal auditing. I heard on that occasion that before my time discussions had been held with the Auditing and Trusteeship Company. I could conclude from that that my order was based on an order ussued to the German Trusteeship Company to audit the DWB and that discussions had been concluded as I said before.
Q. How did you establish that auditing department?
A. My main task was to be the auditing of the concerns of the DWB. The main part of my activity was auditing. That is to say, auditing that everything is correct and also how to keep books. We had to audit the find results on the basis of evidence supplied to us.
Q. Witness, the term Staff W is an important one as we have seen in this trial. It is more important even than a typical auditing department. What did you find when you joined Staff W, what was there?
A. I believe we have talked about that before. There was an auditing department, a legal department, but when I joined there was no auditing department. My task was to establish this auditing department as a completely new thing.
Q. Why did you not simply become head of the auditing department? Why did you become chief of Staff W?
A. I was the most senior officer on the Staff W and, therefore, I obviously became the head.
Q. Who issued your orders?
A. My orders were issued either by Pohl himself or by his deputy Loerner. The latter never happened practically hardly ever at all. But I should point out here perhaps with reference to what I I have said before that I had a collective order to the effect to look at the internal auditing of the concerns and that I did not need any specific orders.
Nor did any such orders reach me unless specific orders were issued by Pohl in case of certain auditing work.
Q. Then, witness, you were plunged into these tasks with certain suddenness. Can you tell us in a few words how you started to work at first. Tell us about your difficulties.
A. Yes. I shall attempt to be brief. As you have so rightly observed I was plunged into these tasks suddenly. It was all very know although I had a certain amount of knowledge of auditing technique from my experience in the finance office but that went back about 8 years and in the meanwhile many new decrees had come out, particularly with reference to auditing and bookkeeping. I was never a commercial man. In addition to that there was nobody who could show me what I had to do. Nobody introduced me to my work. I had to find my way slowly and, therefore, I turned to Dr. Richard Karoli because my task consisted of auditing work. And, as he said this morning I received my suggestions and proposals from his company. I had to talk with the people I found there in order to inform myself about things. They couldn't tell me very much, however. Certainly nothing about auditing. Therefore, I had to start a completely new department for internal auditing. It is logical, of course, that for months I was unable to form an adequate general opinion of the whole business. The whole sphere of duties of W were completely unknown to me at first. Work which hadn't been dealt with had piled up and I could start at first only on the most primitive matters. I started from the easier work and finally reached the most difficult stages. I regarded my main task to have suitable and efficient auditors to work for me.
Q. Witness, one question about that. You mention Dr. Richard Karoli, is he the same one who was here as a witness this morning?
A. No, Dr. Richard Karoli is the older brother.
Q. Witness, please take Document Book XIV and you will find a document, discussed once before, 1039. It is Exhibit 391. It's on page 23 of the German book. I'm afraid I couldn't find out what page it was in English.
THE PRESIDENT: Document 1039? Is that the right number?
DR. FRITSCH: Yes, it is.
THE PRESIDENT: That's Exhibit 384. What is the document you have in mind, Dr. Fritsch?
DR. FRITSCH: 1039. The title says, "Unfinished Work of Staff W." It is on page 19. I am so sorry. I'm afraid I have gotten hold of the wrong exhibit number. It is Exhibit 384.
THE PRESIDENT: That's right. I have it now. That is Hohberg's report of unfinished work.
DR. FRITSCH: Yes, it is.
Q. Witness, I do not want to waste the court's time by going through this document point after point, but it seems obvious to me that the prosecution has used this document, as far as you are concerned, only in order to show what your work consisted of. Who gave you that document?
A. I cannot recall it, but I think it must have been Pohl who gave me this list.
Q. Therefore, of course, you cannot recall whether he gave you an explanation with it.
A. If it was Pohl who gave it to me with an explanation, the reason might have been that he was delighted that somebody took the work away from him. I can't say, however, how I got the document.
Q. Witness, what I am interested in is the question of what you did with that list?
A. This was a list of unfinished work, as the heading says, and I thought that my sask must be to find somebody who could finish the work.
I passed the various points on, some of then to the managers of the competent assistants of W. In some cases, I could do nothing at all. I would like to draw attention to the marginal notes in my handwriting; as I recall it, one abbreviation is Dr. H, which means Dr. Hoffmann, then Dr. Volk in full, but also abbreviated in V, and Schmiel, who is mentioned under 12. He is the accountant.
DR. FRITSCH: May it please the court, may I ask the question: this document has been submitted twice, once in the German text with out the marginal notes. May I ask whether in the English text the marginal notes are contained?
THE PRESIDENT: Under No. 10, there is a marginal note, Dr. H.
DR. FRITSCH: And here it starts under 2, where it says, Dr. V.
THE PRESIDENT: That's right.
DR. FRITSCH: And then it goes on under 3. Under 3 there is a marginal note, Dr. H.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. H. That's right.
DR. FRITSCH: Then I can assume that it is the correct document.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. H. is also under 5, 6 -
DR. FRITSCH: Yes, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: 7.
DR. FRITSCH: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And so on.
DR. FRITSCH: Yes.
Q. What were the cases, Witness, which came under Staff W for processing in the sense in which you regarded Staff W and your duties? Do you have the document?
A. Yes, my answer to that question has to be this: Staff W was concerned with those things which I made the marginal notes about, but then there were also things which I worked on myself.
Q. Witness, let us start from the fact that all the points with their marginal notes were looked after by the Staff. Now we are particularly interested in finding out those cases which you yourself worked on. We are now only selecting those points and forgetting about the others. Would you please tell me what the first point would be?
A. That would be -- can I comment on this? We have discussed it before.
Q. You have misunderstood me, Witness. Was that a case that you worked on yourself?
A. No.
Q. Please, talk only about the points which you yourself worked on.
A. There we have first of all point 4, Adjustments. I would like to say the following about that. Public enterprises in Germany when they have reached a larger volume insure themselves. The suggestion made in this document refers to the procuring of a mutual insurance arrangement; that could only be organized. I couldn't do anything before, until the final auditing had been carried out, particularly the auditing by the taxation authorities in order to decide the question of the taxation obligations. I would like to add that that registration by the Reich Finance Administration in 1944 was started by me, and that it had made considerable progress by the end of the war, but it wasn't quite completed, owing to the military situation.
Q. Witness, in connection with this question another witness has found connection with the question on inmate labor. Please look at Document Book XIII and Document 2164, which is Exhibit 352, page 12 of the German and page 13 of the English text. It's a letter by the Porcelain Factory, Allach of Munich, addressed to the Adjust ment Exchequer of Staff W, dated 22 December, 1943, a period of time when you were already with Staff W. Do you know whether the Porcelain factory Allach, which is asking for compensation, because there was a shortage of labor; they were short of labor from inmates.
-- Did they receive their compensation?
A. I did not work on that myself and I'm inclined to assume that this suggestion was followed up, but I am unable to say it definitely. It was at the beginning and I wasn't too well acquainted with matters then.
Q. Witness, then please continue. What other points did you work on of that unfinished work?
A. The next point is point 16. This is the approval for the annual reports. Approval for annual reports had to be given by the share holders meeting of the various companies, and before that approval was given it had to be proceeded by auditing. This was the definite duty of Staff W and the Auditing Department. I worked on this matter and I gave the documents to the share holders meeting.
Q. Witness, in the same Document Book XIV, which you have with you now, there is Document 1281, Exhibit 400, on page 80 of the German and 84 of the English text.
TEE PRESIDENT: Which book?
DR. FRITSCH: Same Book, 14. I am so sorry, the same book with the unfinished work.
Q. Is that document connected at all? It comes from a period of time when you were part of Staff W.
A. This is a share holders decision of the Blinker GMBH in Posen, as I described just now.
Q. Another question about that document, Witness, we repeatedly talked about the distribution of profits here. Can you say any thing about that from that document?
A. Certainly, what was done with profits -- the total of profits is put here at 164,000 marks and it says underneath what was done with the profits. It shows that 100,000 Reichmarks were deposited, which is correct under commercial law. The money remains in the business, and the balance is being put ahead. It's taken out of the enterprise, but only in the new financial year.
THE PRESIDENT: Recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 23 July 1947, at 0930 hours).
Official Transcript of Military Tribunal II, Case IV, in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 23 July 1947, 0930, Justice Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats please.
The Honorable, the judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session.
God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.