A: Just what it says. I did not say it in the form in the way it is put here. This is an extract from a long interrogation which was carried out by the interrogator, Mr. Ponger. I tried to have a large number of changes made, but I had to fight for every word and every phrase.
What I wanted to say was this: by having the shares transferred to the Reich, I had achieved that as far as the profits the DWB were concerned, nothing would be put at the disposal of the SS, because Pohl was not in a position to do with the profits what he liked, unless he asked the Reich Minister of Finance first.
By the middle of 1942, roughly, on the basis of an arrangement with my friend, Dr. May, I turned away from the ideology of the WVHA entirely and we also hoped to have the political power of the DWB concern transferred somewhere else which is what I wanted to express here.
I did the following: I made a list of all funds which had been used for the capital of the DWB, including photostatic copies of all letters which had dealt with the capital increase, and I deposited them with the bank in order to have the evidence there, that the enterprise was a Reich enterprise, pure and simple, and therefore should be administered by the Reich Ministries concerned. This was the Reich Finance Ministry in collaboration with the Reich Ministry of Economics.
Q: Where did you keep these documents?
A: In the Dresdner Bank at Berlin, in the deposit room.
Q: Have you still got these documents?
A: All of these were confiscated by the occupation forces in Berlin.
Q: Did you take any other measures in that respect?
A: I had deposited these photostatic copies in various places. When we escaped from East Prussia, my wife more by chance than by anything else, took the most important copy with her, which I handed to the British officer who arrested me. This was a capital increase of 3.5 marks which had come from various funds, and represented Reich moneys.
DR. HEIM: In this connection, I beg to submit Hohbert Document No. 22, on page 49, which will be deemed Exhibit No. 26.
I should like to draw the Tribunal's attention in connection with what the witness has just told us, to page 51 of the document book.
Witness, did you not at one time attempt in Berlin to publish the fact to the Ministry concerned that the Reich was the real owner of the DWB concern?
A: That was a somewhat dangerous venture. My successor was an auditor, by the name of Dr. Richard Karoly, the brother of Dr. Karoly who was later on active on Staff W. I informed him in great detail. Dr. Karoly was the chairman of the German Revisional Trusteeship company in Berlin, which is the Trusteeship company of the German Reich, whose board of directors contained almost all ministerial representatives; The Ministry of Economic Affairs, Finance Ministry, Ministry of Labor, and the Reich Auditing Court.
I already pointed out the consequences at the time, which resulted from the fact that the DWB was a Reich enterprise. He took notice of this, and I assume that later on he informed his brother Richard who was in the auditing department of Staff W about these things.
Q: Did he do anything in that respect?
A: I don't know. He was an SS officer, and therefore, it may be doubtful.
Q: Why didn't you do something about it?
THE PRESIDENT: Some documents and exhibit numbers we do not follow. No. 22 is the document. What exhibit number did you give it?
DR. HEIM: I apologize your Honor. It is document No. 22, on page 4 of the Document Book 1. This document will become Exhibit No. 26.
THE PRESIDENT: No. What happened to Exhibits 22, 23, 24, and 25?
DR. HEIM: The last exhibit number was given to Document No. 15; that was exhibit 21. Document 15 was given 21. No. 22 was given to Document No. 29. Exhibit 23 was Document No. 23. Exhibit 24 was given to document No. 24, and Exhibit 25 was given to Document 30, and 26 was given to document No. 22.
Witness, to repeat my question, why did you not do something about it?
A: It was my view that there was no hurry, because there was no financial danger concerning the Reich. There was no harm in the concern growing any further, and practically speaking, it was in my power, after the concern had been transferred to the Reich financially, to transfer everything else to the Reich, and what had to be done there should not naturally cost one's life, if trouble could be avoided. The occupation by the Allied troops cleared up the point automatically, of course.
Q: What in your opinion, would have been the practical results of the so called transfer of the DWB to the Reich?
The Reich party laws and the economic regulations prescribe how the concern has to be managed. It would have been handled by the Reich Minister of Finance and Minister of Economic Affairs; secondly, a Board of Directors would have had to be formed which did not exist at the time, with the Reich having its share, that is to say, about 50 per cent. The management would have had to be appointed by the Reich itself, and that would be decided upon by the Reich Ministry of Finance.
The Reich Court of Audits exercised the finance law. It was the auditing authority above the auditing official. These would have been the results.
Q: What profits were given to the SS from the Economic Enterprises?
A: No profits reached the SS from the economic enterprise.
Q: That is enough. After the Prosecution has submitted various documents your testimony sounds incredible. Please tell us more about this point.
A: Until the time I left, by the middle of 1943, some enterprises had gathered a fair amount of profit. All of these were for covering up the equally high losses.
Q: In summation, one could say that you were in no way in a position to promote the economic power of the SS in any sense; on the contrary you did what you could to have the economic enterprises taken away from the SS, in favor of the German Reich? Is that correct?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Would you say that question was a little leading?
DR. HEIN: I only want to sum up what the witness has said hitherto in order to make sure that I have understood him correctly.
Quite necessarily could one also say that the SS did not have any profits from the economic enterprises?
A: Aside from a few salaries which are not important they had no profits from these enterprises.
Q: As far as document books of the prosecution are concerned, page 13, English version, page 11 of the German, page 12, English Text Book No. 17, we find Document NO 1034, Exhibit 444-A, which is a letter from you to Pohl concerning the taking over and transfer of the Dachau Enterprise to the German Equipment works, are the contents of this letter comparable with your activities as an auditor?
A What this document shows is the same thing that I have described as a principle just now, that there was an economic enterprise in Dachau without any foundation in commercial law; that if that enterprise owned a million marks in a bank account, nobody could be stopped from drawing 500,000 marks more for any purpose not connected with the firm. The only possibility to tie down this money was to give this property a basis in the commercial law, which was the reason why I suggested to Pohl to make this capital a part of the German Equipment Works, and to increase the capital of the DAW accordingly.
DR. HEIM: I now have reference to Document Book No. 16 of the Prosecution, which is the document on page 29 of the English version. This Document is NO-1022, Exhibit No. 432. It is a letter from Chief of Office A-1 to you concerning a discussion about the open credit for the DEST with the German Gold Discount Bank.
BY DR. HEIM:
Q Please give us your comments on that document, and explain to us whether on the basis of your activity, such as you have described in this letter, the support of the SS industries was effected?
A What document book is that, please?
Q In this Document Book 16, page 28, the German version?
THE COURT: Please refer to that again.
DR. HEIM: It is page 29 of the English Document Book.
THE WITNESS: Shall I start? This is a large credit which was given by the German Gold Discount Bank. The German Gold Discount Bank is a subsidiary bank of the German Reich Bank. The extent of credit which the DEST had was considerably higher because this credit was cheap. As far as I remember it was a two and one-half percent. On the other hand, there were a number of other enterprises, which were being financed by a third party, and which had to pay a considerably higher interest. This is the reason why I suggested to the DEST to exploit to the full extent the credit which the German Gold Discount Bank was prepared to give and to pay two and one half percent interest, only for a total amount in order to use the additional credit for paying back the other credits which were more expensive.
This is a very obvious advice which I gave in my capacity as an auditor when we came across a thing like that.
Q Witness, I have understood you to say that you were not in agreement with the aims of the SS. Did the SS leaders, of the WVHA end the DWB, not take offense because although you were not employed you were acting as an auditor for the SS enterprises, although you belonged neither to the SS nor the Party?
A I did not want to make friends among the SS leaders during my activities. I always met with a large amount of obstruction where I was concerned. That obstruction happened for two reasons, for a political reason, which was plausible, and for another, the indignation that there was any form of supervision at all, and they were highly indignant that a civilian should supervise them. In order to keep up the example, it was quite easy up to then for the manager of an enterprise, even when he employed inmate labor in his enterprise, to have the inmates work in his garden, or to charge the company with any private acquisitions, or, questions concerning the use of his car, official trips. Now for the first time a regular supervision was established. That was the reason why opposition was inevitable.
Q In this connection I would like to have reference to Document Hohberg No. 23, Exhibit No. 23, which I have offered already, and I want to have special reference made to the last paragraph. It is the last sentence, and if I may I would like to read it. It is on page 54 of the Document Book. In the affidavit Opperbeck who was employed by the WVHA made the following statement, and I quote: "I know that strong animosity existed towards Dr. Hohberg on the part of several SS Officers especially within the WVHA."
Q Witness, were you not in danger of being arrested at the request of the SS?
A Not at the beginning but the situation changed all of a sudden when my friend Dr. May was in a Gestapo prison. From that moment onwards evidence piled up against me. That was an open secret, and it was only a question of time when I would follow Dr. May.
Q How did you know that?
A I know that because a number of SS officers felt an obligation to tell me this. I also know it through my friend Weissenbach.
Q Can you tell us more about this imminent arrest?
A I was on an official trip one day. My wife received a visit from an officer of the SS. The man told her that I would be arrested on my return. The man's name was Bruhne, and he worked in Office W-4. He came in the middle of the night at 11:00 o' clock, in order not to be seen. Then I went to see Pohl on Monday morning, and Pohl rank up Dr. Schmidt-Klevenow, and he connected me either with the Gestapo, or the Reich Criminal Police Office, I don't know which, and it became clear that I was accused of having forged a check in Vienna at a time I had not been in Vienna, and as the result of my sudden action I was now arrested.
DR. HEIM: Here I would like to draw the attention of the Tribunal to Hohberg Document No. 22, which I have submitted as Exhibit No. 26, the last paragraph on page 51 of the document book.
BY DR. HEIM:
Q Do you know another case where your arrest seemed to have been imminent?
AAfter Dr. May's arrest by order of the SS Officer I was told to see Pohl and I was accused of having caused Dr. May to have photostatic copies made of his files.
I denied that, and nothing further happened.
Q Do you know now of another case?
A My defense counsel here told me a third case. Again by the same SS Court officer I was accused of having defrauded seven-hundred thousand marks, though I have heard here for the first time about this. The Main Office of the SS Court was supposed to have issued the order of my arrest. That was the same method, of course, which was used against Dr. May, in as much as he was accused of something first then locked up, and afterwards he was patted on the back and told: "All is well now."
Q Was ever an attempt made to make you join the Party, on the SS?
A Oh, yes, on several occasions I was invited to join the SS.
Q Please give us more details about that?
A Shortly after I had concluded my contract with Pohl in 1940, the Replacement Officer of the Waffen-SS, Spree invited me with a letter marked "secret" to turn up at the replacement office of SS and join the Waffen-SS. This secret letter also said that I was expected to continue my work as an auditor in a civilian capacity.
Q Why did you decline to join?
A I declined to join the SS from the beginning, and Pohl, with whom I concluded the contract, knew this and approved of it.
Q Did you hear anything about your declining this offer later on?
A I was sent another two letters with an invitation, and also telephone calls, which were rather rude, but I did not react.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: What year was this?
THE WITNESS: That was in 1940.
BY DR. HEIM:
Q When were you invited again to join up to the SS?
A The next invitation was issued by Pohl himself. Pohl offered me a job with the DWB, and he also offered me a higher SS rank. The positions which Pohl offered to me were higher at first, and later on as far as the rank was concerned they became lower and lower; at the end he only offered me the rank of a Hauptsturmfuehrer.
Q Was an attempt made to force you to join the Waffen-SS?
A Yes, an extremely strange attempt was made once in February 1945, when I was working with what was known as the May organization. At the time I worked on the project "Gewaltaktion 163" as deputy for Dr. May. I went to Berlin, and the driver of Pohl told me to come and see Pohl at once, but the driver told me that I had been looked for by a wireless message. I made an appointment with the adjutant of Pohl, and turned up to see Pohl on Monday or Tuesday. Unlike his usual habits, Pohl did not shake hands with me when I came in. He told me to sit down, and he told me he knew very well where I had been for the last fornight, and, he said, if I can recall it, almost literally: "If you think that you can run away when we mount the barricades then you are making a mistake. We shall find you even if I should not be alive anymore." I remember these two sentences almost verbatim.
"Effective immediately, I am taking you into the Waffen-SS". I was then on leave with the Luftwaffe. "And you are not going to leave Berlin again. You will report at once to Sturmbannfuehrer Stein." who was the expert for personnel questions of the SS officers. I said, "Yes Sir." I went to Stein. Stein took down my unit from my pay book, and he wanted to know who my superior officer in the Air Ministry was. That was my opportunity to leave the WVHA again, by saying that agency, the Air Equipment Office, was about to evacuate Berlin and that I had to find out the address first of all. I disappeared and was not seen again.
DR. HEIM: If the Tribunal please, I shall later on submit another few affidavits about the things the witness has told us just now.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Have you given us the date of this episode?
THE PRESIDENT: February 1945.
THE WITNESS: February 12, 1945.
BY DR. HEIM:
Q Witness, would it have been financially advantageous for you to join the SS?
AAlmost without doubt. Pohl-
THE PRESIDENT: I don't know, but he answered your question. He said, "Yes, without a doubt."
DR. HEIM: I did not understand the witness, Your Honor.
THE WITNESS: I said Yes.
BY DR. HEIM:
Q Witness, since no ruling has been made about the question of conspiracy in this Indictment, I want to put a few questions to you in connection with that Count.
THE PRESIDENT: I suggest that you defer these questions, please. You can ask them later if it seems to be important.
DR. HEIM: Thank you very much, Your Honor.
BY DR. HEIM:
Q Witness, let us now talk about the time after May's arrest up to the middle of 1943. Did you at any time try to gain influence on the aims of the DWB concern?
A Yes. After we had succeeded in having the Chief of Group W-IV, which was the Timber Processing Works-- at that time it was Maurerreplaced by Dr. May, who was a timber expert.
Q Will you please tell us how you made this attempt to gain influence?
A Dr. May came from a firm of a furniture dealer in Southern Germany, and he had a large number of social reform plans in his mind. In order to carry out a home beautifying program, he wanted to have a large number of furnitures manufactures concentrated and to have cheap and beautiful furniture manufactured specifications. I helped him most enthusiastically in these tasks, including Herr Pohl. For instance, we had already the basis, by distributing the work over the various plants, to produce furniture, including the kitchen, for the price of about 1200 or 1400 marks, and from today's situation when everybody--refugees and bombed-out people-- need so much furniture, it is to be regretted that this wonderful social plan which was Dr. May's contribution could not be carried out.
DR. HEIM: If the Court please, I would like to submit here Document No. 36, which is on page 81 of the Document Book, and it will become Exhibit No. 27. I should like to draw the Tribunal's attention to Page 82, the third paragraph, which bears out what the witness has said just now.
BY DR. HEIM:
Q Witness, these social plans, were they realized?
AA large number of furnitures factories had, on the basis of a contract, put a part of their production potential at the disposal of the enterprise ta produce better homes. Deliveries were already under way.
The Court might be interested in the fact that the laws said expressly that no piece of furniture must be supplied which had been produced by inmate labor. They were all enterprises which did not employ inmates.
Q Were these plans carried on to the end?
A No. In July 1942 Dr. May at the suggestion of Pohl, was arrested by General Nebe, who was the Chief of the Reich Criminal Police Office. Nebe also lost his life after the events of 20 July, and that was the end of that plan.
Q Why was Dr. May arrested?
A Dr. May was arrested by the Gestapo, and the Gestapo had fought against him already in Prague and in Bruenn where he had his firm. He had about seven private enterprises at that time. I assume that the animosity of the Gestapo towards Dr. May can be explained by the fact that Dr. May had acquired the work Buczowicz near Bruenn, a large furniture factory, from the Jewish family Drucker, and that he had helped that family to escape across the frontier. When there was a fire in that factory, Dr. May was persecuted by the Gestapo in an incredible manner, in the course of which Pohl--of course, he really couldn't help himself--had to abandon May.
Q How was that Dr. May's arrest important?
A It was generally know that Dr. May and I were friends. He was regarded as an intruder because he had replaced an old SS officer like Mauer. In any case, he had met resistance with many SS leaders when he settled down to improve working conditions in the German equipment works. The arrest of Dr. May seemed to be a welcome opportunity to take action against me.
Q How was that expressed toward you?
A I noticed it from the behavior of a large number of SS officers towards me. They no longer greated me or smiled.
I was insulted over the telephone, and I was told confidentially that my telephone was being watched.
THE PRESIDENT: What was the reason for this? Was it because you were not a member of the SS?
A Mr. President, I think the main reason was that after Dr. May and I had worked for the DWB, three of the oldest SS officers had to go--Chief of W-1, Salpeter, the Chief of W-3, a very old SS officer with the Golden Badge, and then there was Mauer. That was why we two were faced with a closed front--because they all stuck together.
THE PRESIDENT: We'll recess until tomorrow morning.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 0930 hours tomorrow morning.
Whereupon, at 1630 hours, 14 July 1947, the Tribunal recessed until 0930 hours, 15 July, 1947.
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the Matter of the United States of America against Oswald Pohl, et al., defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 15 July 1947, 0930-0945, Justice Toms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. II.
Tribunal No. II is again in session. God bless the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
DR. SEIDL (Counsel for defendant Pohl): If the Tribunal please, both I and other Defense Counsel in the opening statements commented on Count I, the conspiracy count. At that time no formal application was submitted in this trial. Meanwhile, there has been a meeting of all Tribunals about that point, and both Tribunal No. 1 and Tribunal No. III have ruled on that count of the Indictment. Therefore, and for the reason that the Defense have not submitted a formal application in this respect, I should therefore like now to submit the application for this Court to give a ruling as Tribunals I and III have on the conspiracy count, in order to avoid a repetitious treatment of this count and also legal argument at the end of the trial.
THE PRESIDENT: If any of the Defense Counsel wish to make a motion in this Court with reference to Count I, the Court will entertain it and decide it. No such motion has yet been made. As soon as a motion is made, we will decide it.
While I am on the microphone, I would like to advise Counsel that there will be no session of this case this afternoon. The room is being used by another Tribunal just for this afternoon. We will resume as usual tomorrow morning after the recess at 12:30.
DR. HEIM (Counsel for defendant Hohberg): May it please the Tribunal, if the Court is agreeable, I shall submit the balance of the documents of Document Book No. I.
I offer Hohberg No. 21, which is on Page 46 of the Document Book, and it will be Exhibit No. 28. Document No. 25 will become Exhibit No. 29. Document No. 26 will be Exhibit No. 30. Document No. 27 will be 31. No. 28 I offer as Exhibit 32. Document 31 will become Exhibit 39. I'm 4333 A sorry.
It will be No. 33. No. 32 will be Exhibit No. 34. Number 33 will be Exhibit 35. No. 34 will be 36. No. 35 will be 37. No. 37 will be Exhibit 38. No. 38 will be Exhibit 39, and finally, No. 39 will become Exhibit No. 40.
I shall now continue with the examination of the defendant.
DEFENDANT HOHBERG -- Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION -- Continued BY DR. HEIM:
Q Witness, we stopped yesterday when Dr. May was being arrested. You told us that May in 1942 was arrested and that this was expressed towards you in some way also. Were you in a position at the time to help Dr. May in any sense when he was in prison?
A Very little, I'm afraid. Pohl had told me not to interfere in any way. I tried to get him an attorney. Dr. Langbeen was to take over his defense. He was half Swedish. He, however, declined because it was too dangerous. Langbeen himself was executed a little later for another matter. I did not succeed in preventing the confiscation of the largest part of Dr. May's fortune while he was arrested, the works in Buczowicz, through an allegedly free contract. Dr. May did not receive any compensation.
Q Why did you not resign in that case?
A Dr. May and I felt that the large concern of the DWB was an excellent platform for our plans to build better homes. No inmate work was needed for that. The only thing which we had to achieve was to evacuate the whole concern and distribute it all over the Reich for the reason that it was planned originally that the profits of the concern should be put at the disposal only of SS members and their families, whereas those manufacturers who were concentrated in this scheme wanted to supply the whole of the German Reich.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a minute. I think there was an error in translation. Instead of "profits", I think it is "output". You means the houses that you build were to be sold to SS men?
A No, the furniture which was to be produced, the equipment for houses.
THE PRESIDENT: The word "profits" was used, and I think it means the output instead.
A Yes, I think so too.
BY DR. HEIM:
Q.- How long did you audit the concern of DWB from that time onwards?
A.- I continued to audit until January, 1943. On the 20th of January I was transferred. All my auditors were transferred, either to other agencies or to subsidiary companies, and some of them went to the front.
Q.- What was the reason why all your auditors were taken away from you?
A.- Pohl explained this act with the action of General Unruh. I personally thought that this was a reply when I turned down the proposition to be appointed economic inspector, which happened a few months before, and which would have brought me under the disciplinary authority of Pohl if I had accepted.
Q.- Were your auditors transferred to the front or other militarily important places which was the point of the action of General Unruh?
A.- Most of them went to subsidiary companies. It was a piece of tomfoolery really. They didn't audit in the top agency but simply in the subsidiary agencies. This was very dangerous professionally because the auditors had not been sufficiently trained. I used to give lessons to my auditors in Berlin every Saturday.
Q.- Was Dr. Horn transferred on that day, on the 20th of January, 1943?
A.- Yes, Dr. Horn, who was one of my auditors, was taken away from me officially that day.
Q.- Did you from that day onwards have any authority to issue orders to Dr. Horn or to anyone of your former auditors?
A.- No, from that day onwards I and my secretary were all alone.
Q.- Now, I have to speak about the period of time from the 20th of January, 1943, onwards. What did you do after that date?
A.- I was no longer able to audit; I didn't have the staff. For that reason I concentrated mainly on taxation activities, and I went out to the various subsidiary companies with whom we had taxation contracts.
As far as I was in Berlin, I only spent a few hours in the office, as I had to look after other orders as well.
Q.- Did you try at that time to shut down your activities?
A.- I attempted to join the Wehrmacht. I started trying to join the Wehrmacht in autumn 1942, actually once I had found out that it was only a matter of time when I would risk my life.
Q.- Were your attempts successful?
A.- Not at the beginning. I was put off. In the spring of 1943 the following incident helped me. Lord Mayor Winkler appeared in Pohl's office one day, together with Director Kiesewetter of the Foreign Exchange Institute in Prague, and they complained about me. Here we were concerned with the matter of taking over the shares of the Wolfram Limited Company. These gentlemen alleged that I and the Czech citizen, Bieleck, I had protected Bieleck to the disadvantage of those two. Pohl was highly indignant, and I used this opportunity to ask for my dismissal. This was complied with, and shortly afterwards Pohl, through Dr. Volk, tried to have me declared indispensable, but he was unsuccessful. That was how I joined the Army.
DR. HEIM: Mr. President, because of this incident with Bieleck I shall submit an affidavit by the Czech citizen Bieleck in Document Book II.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q.- Doctor, right while you are winding up your discussion with Pohl, I noticed in your affidavit, No. NO-194 that you state this on Page 84 of the English translation. "I was the only man whose position would have enabled him to take steps against Pohl, and I was the only one who would have been able to confiscate Pohl's entire possessions. But Pohl's enormous power was well known. One word from him and a person was done for. I therefore had to be careful. In spite of this I managed to collect data against Herr Pohl during the time prior to my departure."
Now, what do you mean by the date that you had collected against Pohl?
A.- Your Honor, at that time I asked Mr. Ponger who interrogated me not to say "Pohl" but "SS" but I did not succeed in convincing him. We argued, Ponger and I, which becomes clear from the many corrections which this report has. Mr. Ponger said that he had to have the report by the evening, and I was not allowed to make any more corrections. That is the reason why these statements are a little unclear. What I meant by this was the following: By putting all the economic properties into a status under commercial law it was to be prevented that money was taken out from these enterprises for purposes outside the enterprises, for SS purposes, that is. I succeeded in getting Pohl, because personally he didn't even notice it to the full extent, to have the shares transferred to the Reich by having the funds which were used to increase the capital declared official Reich moneys. Therefore, it was no longer possible to take anything out of the capital because under German commercial law that would have been impossible. Secondly, it was not possible for Pohl to use profits for SS purposes. That would have been an act of defrauding under Reich laws. Only one thing had to be done now, to put the concern away from the SS and transfer it to the Reich authority, for which purpose I collected evidence and at that the bigger part of the fundamental capital came from moneys which belonged to the Reich.
Q.- What did you mean by being able to confiscate Pohl's entire possessions?
A.- The term "Confiscate" is not a very good translation. We are concerned here with the transfer of the supervision, who would direct the enterprise from above, and if it was a Reich enterprise it would not have been Pohl. It would have been the Reich Minister of Finance together with the Reich Minister of Economic Affairs. The word should not be "confiscate" but "transfer".