DR. SEIDL: Yes, Your Honor. However, I would like a decision on my request according to which the defendant can make a statement himself with regard to these accusation, and I would like to know whether a request of mine could be granted to confront the witness Dr. Schmidt-Klewenow with Dr. Morgan.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, of course, the defendant Pohl can be recalled only to refute any statements which Morgan might make while testifying. That is true of any other defendant who is affected by Morgan's testimony: That defendant can take the witness stand and refute the accusations.
Now, what was it about the witness Schmidt-Klewenow?
DR. SEIDL: I would like to have Dr. Morgan called here and Dr. Schmidt Klewenow at the same time and have them confront each other.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you just want them to see each other, or what?
DR. SEIDL: No, Your Honor. I would like the witness Dr. Schmidt-Klewenow to be present when the witness Dr. Morgan is examined, and then I would like to call him as a witness with regard to the statements made by Dr. Morgan.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, wait a minute. This puts us back about to the first of May in the trial. Schmidt-Klewenow has already testified, has he not?
DR. SEIDL: Yes, Your Honor. However, he has not made any statements with regard to the new accusations of Dr. Morgan which are contained in this affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: You see, he has already denied the statements made by Dr. Morgan. I mean Schmidt-Klewenow has. Now you are going to put Morgan on to repeat his statements and then put Schmidt-Klewenow on to repeat his denial, and that could go on forever.
DR. SEIDL: I suggest, Your honor, that the decision about this request be postponed until the cross examination of Dr. Morgan has taken place and has been completed.
THE PRESIDENT: The decision will be postponed indefinitely.
MR. ROBBINS: I should like just to remind Dr. Seidl of two things. One is that Schmidt-Klewenow was asked about his opinion -
THE PRESIDENT: I just ruled with you, Mr. Robbins. You need not labor the point unless you just want to express yourself.
MR. ROBBINS: Very well.
DR. HOFFMANN: Your Honor, the defendant Scheide has just sent me a note to the effect that he does not feel well. Could he be briefly excused from the courtroom?
THE PRESIDENT: Of course, He can be excused for the rest of this session and the rest of the day, if necessary.
DR. HOFFMANN: Your Honor, I would like to read several phrases from the document which has just been admitted on behalf of Scheide. First of all, I would like to say something with regard to the question which the Tribunal put to the defendant yesterday -- the question of who actually carried out the rail transports. On page 91 of this affidavit, page 91 of the English Document Book, in the center of Page 1, Line 17 from above it states:
"The railways had to transport the Jews by numbered trains as used in the transportation of soldiers. In this way the station of departure and the transient station could not know the place of destination. The management of the trains was conducted by WehrmachtTransportation Headquarters. The escorting personnel was assigned by the Foreign Police authorities to the Reich border, within the Reich territory this duty was exercised by the German or the transport escorting commands of the Waffen-SS, which in general were detailed for the escort of war transports of all kinds. Members of the guard units of the concentration camp concerned were used only for transfers from one camp to another. In this way the transports arrived at the extermination camp, without anyone of those cooperating up to that stage possibly suspecting the secret purpose of this transport."
I then should like to go on, and I want to quote on page 92 where the question of secrecy is discussed:
"The cooperation of members of the SS was therefore restricted to the commander, the physician, the driver, the exterminator and the guards. Here we are discussing the extermination question. Germans in this operation were only the commander, the medical officer and the exterminator. Thus it was again assured that secrecy was maintained not only by compulsory discretion under oath, but also by the difficulties with regard to a linguistic understanding between the majority of those informed about the events and the German population or the German members of the SS. Thus, it is quite possible that people in foreign countries perhaps know more about those events than those in Germany itself."
From this the medical officer, the commander, were German in this case.
And now I want to go back to page 90. Here this affidavit states the following:
"The circle of the active perpetrators, participants and informed persons was an extraordinary small one. I estimate the number of those in some way connected with the extermination of human beings comprising all those concerned - to several hundred. Most of them have probably died in the meantime."
Then the author of this affidavit on page 88 makes the following statement. That is the second paragraph of page 88: Here it shows the possibility of the things which brought about this action:
"By Himmler's personal behavior the recognition of the actual conditions became completely confused. Upon my first remonstrance, Himmler immediately agreed to the investigation, dropped without mercy the former big-wigs of the concentration camps that had been seized and decreed in repeated orders ruthless measures. Therefore, at the beginning it was hardly conceivable that in this case it could be the question of a system and that Himmler himself should be the author of certain kinds of concentration camp systems. It just seemed to be unthinkable, in view of the education of the SS to manly sincerity, frankness and honesty, to think the Reichsfuehrer SS capable of such insidious activities and of being two-faced, the hidden face bearing the characteristics of a common criminal."
I have now reached the end of my preparation as far as this affidavit is concerned. I now would like to introduce a number of documents which are located in my document book. I only want to give the exhibits a number, because I don't want to read them here in detail.
In document Book I, I want to introduce Scheide Document I. This is an affidavit by Fritz Ebert, who was working in Office B-5 with Scheide. I want to give this exhibit No. 28. Ebert can testify about the work of Scheide.
In Document Book I, I also want to introduce document 14. I will give this exhibit No. 29. This is an excerpt from the Gazette of the Waffen SS. Then I want to introduce document Scheide No. 16, and will give it number 30.
This was an extract from the Gazette of the Waffen SS.
Then I want to introduce Document 18, which I will give Number 31. This is also an excerpt from the Gazette of the Waffen SS.
Then I want to introduce Document 25 in Document Book I, and will provide it with exhibit No. 32. This is an affidavit about the character of the defendant Scheide.
I will introduce Scheide Document 26 and will give it exhibit No. 33.
Then Scheide Document 27, and this will become Exhibit 34, and Scheide Document 28. This will become exhibit 35.
Scheide Document 29 will become exhibit 36.
The last few documents are a summary about the attitude of the defendant Scheide from 1933 until the war ended, and I therefore would like the Tribunal to take Judicial notice of this.
In Document Book 2, I also want to introduce several documents. However, I want to be able to present them together with other documents, which I shall present later on. For the time being my presentation of evidence on behalf of the defendant Scheide is now completed.
THE PRESIDENT: In Document Book I, Dr. Hoffman, Document 12, and Document 20, you did not give those exhibit numbers.
DR. HOFFMAN: Your Honor, I do not want to introduce Document 12. Scheide Document 20 is Exhibit 13-A, because Exhibit 13 and 13-A belong together.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you intend to offer further proof?
DR. HOFFMAN: I shall submit several other documents later on. I request permission to do so.
THE PRESIDENT: The documents are not ready yet?
DR. HOFFMAN: Your Honor, these documents are not ready yet.
THE PRESIDENT: Then you close your case, but you wish leave to offer further proof in the way of documents.
DR. HOFFMAN: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Defendant Hohberg is the next one to offer his defense. We will start the defense at the afternoon session.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1345.
(Thereupon the noon recess was taken.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1350 hours, 11 July 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
HANS KARL HOHBERG, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Please raise your right hand and repeat after me. I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You may be seated.
DR. HEIM: Dr. Heim for the Defendant, Dr. Hohberg.
May it please Your Honors, I shall begin the presentation of evidence for the defendant, Dr. Hohberg, by calling the defendant as a witness in his own behalf. I furthermore shall examine other additional witnesses as well as use documents.
As I have found out, the two document books which I introduce for the Defendant Hohberg have not been translated as yet, although I turned them in about four weeks ago to the translation department.
May it please Your Honors, I shall show you by calling the defendant as a witness what activity the Defendant Hohberg carried out for the Deutsche Wirtschaftsbetriebe, G.m.b.H., the German Economic Enterprises and what his position was there. In order to explain his activity as an auditor and consultant to the DWB, it is absolutely necessary to discuss questions in connection with the audits and economic consultation for instance, economic advice and advice on tax matters. All these questions are closely connected with the presentation of evidence, so that knowledge of them is a basic necessity, particularly since the profession of auditors and economic consultants is hardly known in Germany. I shall deal with those questions only as briefly as necessary. I shall, however, have to discuss the organization of Amtsgruppe W more in detail.
Dr. Hohberg is the first defendant who has been brought to a connection with Amtsgruppe W by the Prosecution.
Furthermore in the course of this trial the last existing unclarities concerning Amtsgruppe W were absolutely eliminated. Finally I shall have the witness comment on a few documents, and I shall also examine him in brief terms concerning his activity after his work as an economic consultant to the DWB was ended in the middle of 1943.
BY DR. HEIM:
Q Witness, please give us your full name.
A Hans Karl Hohberg.
Q When and where were you born?
A I was born on the 21st of April 1906, at Winzenheim in Alsace.
Q Will you please tell us your curriculum vitae and education until Hitler seized the power in Germany?
A First of all I went to the gymnasium in Strasbourg in Alsace, and then after the end of the First World War my father was deported from Alsace due to the fact that all Protestant ministers of German origin were expelled from Alsace. Then I visited the gymnasium in a city in Westphalia. I graduated there. I went through a commercial training course; then I went to the universities in Cologne and Freiburg, and I studied plant economy. Then in 1928 I received my commercial diploma. Then I became assistant to a Director in one of Cologne's enterprises, and then I became an auditor in a chain store concern. I resumed my studies and in Cologne I received my doctor's degree by writing a literary work dealing with the Reich finance policy at the time of the Dowes and Young plan with Professor Mann later in Washington. Immediately after that I became an auditor and later on I worked with an auditing enterprise at Hamburg, which was part of the banking house Warburg. That was in 1933.
Q What were the decisive circumstances and conditions during all this time which brought about your political ideas and ideology?
A The way I had been brought up was one of the decisive factors. My family was very liberal and not orthodox at all. My stepmother also came from a parson's family and my youth actually was very much influenced by my father's activity for an understanding between Germany and Alsace. Later on I became a member of a Christian Student Union. My personal ideology went along a certain line due to the fact that I worked as a locksmith in one of the mines during my holidays. I gained Socialist ideas there curing my studies which were undermined because the particular professor who gave us lectures in Cologne where I completed my studies tried to prove the Marxistic theories on a plant economy basis. I do not want to speak more in detail about those things. This question deals mostly with the overhead expenses in factories and the accumulation of capital. That is the plant economy under the marxist theory about the accumulation of capital.
Q Witness, will you please explain to us your professional activities from 1933 onwards until you had your first contact with the SS and Pohl.
A In 1933 I tried for a whole year to become independent in my profession in Dortmund. However, that was not a final solution because I had not yet completed my studies as an auditor. I then became an auditor for a Berlin auditing enterprise and in order to complete taxation questions which existed I worked for 2-½ years in Berlin with an auditor who also dealt with taxation matters. Last, I was a head concern auditor. In the meantime I passed my examination in Berlin as an economic auditor. After that I returned to my old. company where I had worked previously; first I worked in Berlin and then I went to Vienna. Then I took over the main branch of that company in Koenigsberg for the whole German eastern territory.
Q What contact did you have with the NSDAP from 1933 to 1940? By that I mean the NSDAP and its affiliated organizations.
A In 1933 I went on several occasions to special meetings of the SA. The reason why I went was because I liked to ride on motor bikes. I was there three or four times. That's all. We drank beer at night and carried out gymnastics during the daytime. That was all. Later on I was to be taken over by the Reich Finance Department in Berlin. Of course, I had to be a member of the Party to get such a job. Without my knowing about it I was put down as a proposed member of the Party by the Reich Finance Department. I was asked if I wanted to collaborate. I refused to do so, whereupon I was immediately dismissed. That was my contact with the NSDAP.
Q What did you do from 1940 to 1943?
A I was an independent economic auditor in Berlin and during all that time I mainly audited the most important economic enterprises of Pohl, the SS economic enterprises.
Q When did you complete the economic auditing work you carried out for Pohl?
A On 30 June 1943.
Q What did you do then?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Do I understand the witness to say that he did independent auditing for the defendant Pohl from 1940 to 1943?
DR. HEIM: I don't quite understand the question. Would you repeat it please?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Do I understand the witness to testify that he did independent auditing for the defendant Pohl between the years 1940 and 1943?
DR. HEIM: Yes, that is what the defendant stated, Your Honor.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: And had no connection with the WVHA?
DR. HEIM: Your Honor, in the course of this examination I shall discuss the defendant's activities in detail with reference to his auditing work for the DWB.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What I want to know now is, do I understand him to mean that during the years 1940 to 1943 he had no connection with the WVHA?
DR. HEIM: Your Honor, you have understood it correctly. The defendant stated that he, from 1940 to 1943, was an independent auditor. During that time, apart from other enterprises, he also did auditing work for the economic enterprises of Pohl. That was his only connection with Pohl.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: And the economic enterprise he did auditing for had no connection with the WVHA?
DR. HEIM: Your Honor, according to the statements made by the Prosecution those economic enterprises were called Amtsgruppe W. In the course of my presentation of evidence and by examining this defendant as a witness in his own behalf I shall prove that opinion which has been prevailing so far is absolutely contrary to commercial law and does not apply or compare with the actual conditions.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I see.
Q Witness, we stopped just now at the time of 30 June 1943. On that particular day, going back to your own statement, you ceased your activity as a certified public accountant with the DWB. What did you do then?
A I was conscripted into the Luftwaffe, the Air Forces. I was in Germany for a short period of time. Then I received my diploma concerning radar appliances whereupon I was assigned in France and Belgium to a so-called special aircraft-detection unit. Certain machines were used in order to detect tri-dimensional position of airplanes in the sky. Toward the end of August 1944 Doctor May who is listed under Office "-IV on the chart took me to the Reich Ministry of Aviation and I worked there as his deputy, first of all for the special invention of Horten which is quite similar to the one invented by Lippisch who is in America, and later on for the single jet plane, ME 262 known in German as Gewaltaktion.
Q Dr. Hohberg, after the end of the War what did you do?
AAfter the end of the War again I did auditing work as a private auditor.
Q When and where were you arrested?
A On 22 October of last year, two French-speaking officers came to see me, they searched my house and took me along. They stated that they were Frenchmen but they were British. They turned me over to the French authorities, then they turned to my apartment. They said they were being sent by me and as funny as it may seem they stole all sorts of things, clothing, typewriter, underwear, watches and similar things. When I inquired of the French Government about this I never received an answer. That same British Captain, Park was his name, 5 days later brought me to Minden to the War Crimes Holding Center.
Q. Witness, were you immediately interrogated there? Were you given a hearing there?
A. No, I was not; I was there in solitary confinement for a while without knowing why. They were mainly interested in the fact whether I was a member of the movement "Free Europe", and what knowledge I had about that movement.
Q. Weren't you asked to write a report in Minden?
A. After having been in confinement for three weeks, a British Air Force captain by the name of Walker called me, and he asked me if I was ready to write a report on the DWB concern. DWB stands for German Economic Enterprises. However, he said that one of the conditions was that I would have to be subordinated to Dr. Volk in his position as an SS Sturmbannfuehrer. That in itself was an insult for me, but I did it just the same because the conditions of my confinement were more than unpleasant.
Q. Did you have any hearings in your own case in Minden in your own behalf?
A. I asked Captain Walker to be heard in my own behalf; however, he refused to permit me to do so by stating that he had been informed by witnesses that in my Berlin apartment I had kept all these SS and NSDAP insignia and swastikas, and that in any case they wanted to see to it that I didn't come to Nuernberg as a witness.
Q. What was the result of your examination there?
A. The result of the examination was that Dr. Volk, Mummenthey and my own small person--after a month and a half compiled a report consisting of 250 typewritten pages in which I described all the DWB enterprises which I had done auditing work for; Dr. Volk, mainly, described all the other Amtsgruppen of the WVHA. I am quite surprised that the report is not here now.
Q. Were you then transferred to Nuernberg?
A. We were released on Christmas and we were able to go home. Early in January we had to report back.
We could move about freely in Minden. It had been stated that we would probably be released, and we would be able to go home after that. On the 8th of January of this year Major Ellis, from the War Crimes unit in Bad Oeynhausen, appeared there and told us that we had to go to Nuernberg for only a short time. He asked us to join him in his car, and in the evening at nine-thirty we arrived in Nuernberg. He told us that unfortunately he would have to turn us in to the prison for that particular night, and that on the following day we would be picked up again by him--and four days after that I was presented the indictment.
Q. Witness, and in that particular indictment the charges made against you were having been an auditor of the DWB, and particularly during that period from '40 to '43. How was your first contact with the SS brought about?
A. Due to my profession, I was travelling quite a lot in Eastern Prussia and in the Province West Prussia. Early in the spring of 1940 I was bombed out I was asked repeatedly to go to Berlin because there might be a possibility for me to become an independent auditor there. The telephone calls came from an old friend of mine named Weidenbach who, together with an SS Oberfuehrer Moeckl, was the Director of the Heinrich Mattoni AG and also business manager of the Sudetenquell GMBH. I drove to Berlin and I had discussions with both of them, telling them first of all I wanted to go through an auditing test which was more of a spot check to see if I could do it, and that was the so-called Reichsverein fuer Volkspflege and Siedlerhilfe.
Q. When you took over the auditing for this Reichsverein, did you take this test for the Pruefungs AG or did you do it for yourself, independently?
A. I acted independently, during my holidays. The period of time, however, at my disposal was not sufficient for me to complete that auditing work, so that all the money made on that auditing work was taken
Q. Would you describe to us in brief terms how that examination came about, and what the result of that auditing work was?
A. The results are rather long, and it will be difficult to explain it in a few brief terms, but I will try.
The Reichsverein had a purpose which was not explained in the organizational, the so-called secularization. I was, first of all, working in Berlin, doing auditing work there. However, no confiscations had taken place there as yet. The second place, where I did auditing work was Wiesbaden; 17 properties had been requisitioned and confiscated there. That property consisted of church property and hospitals and cloisters. The Reichsverein, however, did not take these properties for itself, but rather transferred them to the other property bearers because the Bishop of Limburg wanted to have a trial in every case. He wanted to sue them. The property bearers were city districts, cities, the Party, and certain communities outside of towns. The next station where I did auditing work was Prague. The Reichsverein had worked for itself with larger success there. The Benedictine convent and monastery of Lambrecht had been confiscated there, and then another cathedral in Bohemia, then in Freudenthal in eastern Sudetengau; then with the help of the Reichsunion another monastery had been taken over. Finally, there was something which was rather peculiar; namely the business manager of that Reichsverein at the same time was the man in charge of the Bodenamt in Prague. He was SS Oberfuehrer von Gottberg. He had received money from the Czech Real Estate Office amounting to approximately one million, and passed it on to a GermanCzech bank for the same amount which was supposed to be used as security. He took up a loan and that money was used by him for purposes of the Reichsverein which at that moment had escaped my auditing. In other words, during the course of my examination the question about the responsibility concerning the removal of those amounts from the real estate company in Prague arose.
Q. When did you meet the co-defendant Pohl?
A. At the end of my examination in Prague there was a final conference, which is always usual when auditing work is done. This final conference was attended by a large number of high-ranking SS leaders. I would like to mention Pohl, Hildebrand, Gottberg, Panke, Moeckl; and some others who were not so important. That is where I met Pohl.
Q. What was your task in that last conference?
A. On that last conference I just informed these people about the last examination results which I did for the Reichsverein for Volkspflege and Siedlerhilfe E.V.
Q. What was the offer made to you after that final conference?
A. After the end of the final conference, SS Oberfuehrer Moeckl stated that he wanted to speak to me in connection with Gruppenfuehrer Pohl who held that rank at the time. We drove around Prague, for about an hour in his car. He told me that Pohl's proposal was that I was to take over the auditing work for all his enterprises.
Q. What was your attitude when you heard this offer?
A. At the beginning I wanted to refuse when Moeckl told me about it because I didn't know the entire field at all.
Q. First of all, you were working for the Wirtschaftsberatung A.G., the Economic Consultation Department A.G., weren't you?
A. Yes; I continued working for that firm for another month and a half, together with ten other people at Koenigsberg.
Q. Did you have any further conferences with Pohl in that connection?
A. I was requested to go to Berlin, and I visited Pohl on two occasions, and it was in the course of the second meeting that we concluded an agreement and I signed a contract.
Q. Why was it that, in spite of your refusal at first -- that brought you to finally sign this contract with Pohl?
A The task as such, as an independent auditor to take over that concern which was in financial difficulties was very interesting for me. Furthermore, I was then able to go back to Berlin again. Pohl agreed with all the terms which I put and he stated that his only condition was that if by chance I should want to join the SS the I would have to promise him not to go to church in uniform anymore. There were no other conditions beyond those contained in the contract.
Q What was the result of these conferences?
A On the 10th of May a contract was signed between Pohl in his capacity as chief of the WVHA and myself as an independent auditor, where it was stated that the so called SS economic enterprise were under his supervision.
Q Would you please tell us about the contents of the agreement which you concluded with Mr. Pohl?
A In that contract it was agreed that I was to carry out, first of all, the legally prescribed auditing work for the SS economic industries; secondly, that I was to take over the economic consultation of the business managers in these particular enterprises. His idea there was to see to it that all the legal questions concerning commerce, taxation matters, prices and foreign exchange were to be complied with. The contract also contained certain clauses concerning my salary, also that a secretary and an additional auditor were to be placed at my disposal and that I was to receive an office. The duration of my contract was one year in each case and, the question concerning liability was also contained in there. The idea of the whole contract to establish a possibility for these economic enterprises to have them provided with the required confirmation by a certified public accountant.
Q If I understood you correctly then, you were an economic auditor and a consultant on tax matters for nine economic enterprises which were under Pohl based on the conferences and discussions you had with Pohl.
Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Would you explain to us now the legal character of that contract?
A The legal character of that contract is what of a working contract and not that of a service contract. I was an independent auditor and not an employee and, apart from that, I had a few more orders from other firms which had nothing to do with this particular contract.
Q What other contracts can you compare this contract with, with reference to its legal character?
A Well, I could compare it with a contract between a lawyer and his client, or the contract between a tailor and his customer for the manufacture of a suit.
Q I see. Thank you. That's fine. In other words on the basis of particular contract, you did not become an employee of Pohl or the WVHA?
A No, I was an independent auditor.
Q When your contract terminated were you subjected to the disciplinary authority of Pohl and were you considered a member of his staff or the WVHA?
A No. However, I have to point out here that shortly after I started working there certain efforts were made by several people in the WVHA to place me under Pohl's disciplinary authority.
Q At that time did you know the connection between the SS and the economic enterprises which you had to audit?
A Yes, I could see that the SS in these enterprises played a most important part. However, I couldn't see in what way the SS was connected economically with these enterprises.
Q Did you know the purpose of the SS in engaging in economic enterprises?
A Yes, I did. When I signed the contract with Pohl, Pohl told me precisely the purpose which pursued with his enterprises. The most important part was the cultivation of the standard of living and the betterment of the food by using special food.
In other words, basically speaking, they were purely social aims.
Q Would you take a look at the Document Book No. 2 introduced by the Prosecution, page 124 of the German and page 107 of the English text?
DR. HEIM: It is Document NO-1016, Prosecution Exhibit 46, Document Book No. 2, your Honors.
Q Did you at any time have any knowledge of the organization tasks of Amtsgruppe which are described in this document?
DR. HEIM: That is on page 107, your Honor.
A This document originated on the first of July 1944 and I would like to ask the Tribunal to remember that all the things which occurred after the 30th of July 1943 I have no connection with whatsoever because I wasn't there any longer. The document originated later on.
Q After that time you had no knowledge whatsoever about this document?
A No sir, not about this document.
Q When you were active as on economic auditor with the DWB -- I shall correct myself -- at that particular time when you began your activity as a certified public accountant, were there enterprises which were employing concentration camp inmates and if so did you know anything about it?
A Yes, that was known to me. Pohl informed me of that. He informed me that particularly the DEST, the German Earth & Stone Works, were using concentration camp inmates. He didn't tell me anything about other enterprises. However, the size of the enterprises themselves and the extent of the number of the inmates used there were not discussed during that first conference which I had with him when the contract was signed.
Q What were the reasons which made you conclude that contract with Pohl?
A That task as such looked very interesting to me because most of the firms were suffering from financial distress and I also wanted to avail myself of the opportunity to become independent. Then the auditing work which I did for the Reichsverein also interested me because I wanted to know what had been done in the economic field in these circles and, finally, I availed myself of the opportunity to go back to Berlin.
Q At the time did you have any moral or political misgivings of any kind?
A No, I had no reason to have any misgivings because the aims which were explained to me in detail by Pohl -- I still adhere to today because they were nothing but social aims.
Q After you had concluded as an agreement with Pohl as a certified public accountant, would you please explain to the Tribunal the tasks and the meaning of the term "certified public accountant" in Germany?
A The profession of certified public accountants in Germany is a relatively young profession; as far as the number of public certified accountants is concerned, there are rather few in Germany and that is the reason why this profession is almost unknown. That amongst other things is the reason why among the defendants and also the prosecution there have been so many misunderstandings on that subject. The so-called legally perscribed mandatory auditing had only been introduced in 1933 for the Aktiengesellschaften on one hand and for certain enterprises belonging to the state on the other hand.
I may mention, in this connection for instance for the commercial enterprises, with limited liabilities or Gesellschaft Mie Beschraenkter Hastpslicht commonly known as "GMBH" in Germany, auditing was not mandatory unless they fell under the term "public utilities".