Q.- Well would you say then that if you didn't make supply of fuel, oil, gas, and tires to Amtsgruppe D, they in turn could not supply them to the different concentration camps and therefore concentration camps would be without these items. Would you say that now?
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, Amtsgruppe D received its share just like any other Amtsgruppes, in as much as that was still possible. I saw to that. I couldn't possibly give them more than that - there wasn't .....
Q.- You have not yet answered my question. For the third time. You knew that if you did not supply these requested items to Amtsgruppe D they could not make distribution to concentration camps and, therefore, concentration camps couldn't get them. Would you make that statement today?
A.- Couldn't have received them? Then they probably would have referred to the Operational Main Office which was the office controlling me. They would have gotten the things somehow.
Q.- All right. Now, if these items could not be supplied to concentration camps the concentration camps couldn't contribute their part to the Reich War effort, could they?
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, this is way it worked. Since you are talking about the war effort: all vehicles which went to the concentration camps were only known to me as supply vehicles of the concentration camps and has nothing to do with industries which worked in or outside of the concentration camp. From the evidence here, from your 23 Document Books you submitted, I have seen that firms which wanted to have inmates also had to supply trucks to pick up the inmates and transport material and several other things. For us in Office B-V there were nothing but supply vehicles.
Q.- You knew during your time as office chief of B-V that concentration camps were contributing their part to the Reich War effort, did you not?
A.- That also was unknown to me. I never thought they were important enough to support the war effort in that way, I didn't know the size of the concentration camps, didn't see any of them, only today on the basis of documents can I imagine it all.
Q.- Were you not interested in seeing that every person with which you had any contact at all contributed to the Reich War effort during your term in office?
A.- One can also call that thing cc duty. Mr. Prosecutor, I did my duty and I expected everybody else to do his duty.
Q.- Then you considered it your duty to make every effort as far as you were personally able to fulfill all these requests whether they came from Amtsgruppe A or D, that is correct, is it not?
A.- No, you can't quite put it that way. I always had to do my job. We always had to try hard in order to comply with all those requests. If there was a necessity for a request - if the request was justified it was signed by an Amtsgruppe Chief, and, of course, we did what we could. That was our duty.
Q.- And if these request signed by Amtsgruppe D chief came in you, you did all you could to see that these requests were fulfilled, did you not?
A.- I told you before Mr. Prosecutor, we received 60 vehicles on one occasion and then 10 more.
Q.- I know about the 60 vehicles. I am now talking about supplies the tires, the gas, the spare parts, the oil. When these requests came in you did your level best to see what that these requests were honored, did you not?
A.- No, that isn't correct either. Those additional quantities received by Amtsgruppe D or somebody else were not fixed by me but the Operational Main Office according to the number of vehicles and amount of miles travelled.
Q.- Didn't you see that Amtsgruppe A got all of its request filled as far as you could?
A.- Amtsgruppe A?
Q.- Yes.
A.- Well what does Amtsgruppe A have to do with vehicles?
Q.- That was your job, not mine.
A.- Yes, I see. I am sorry. I thought we were talking about something else.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until tomorrow morning.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 11 July 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. 2.
Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will indicate that the Defendant Volk is absent from this session of court at the request of counsel and by leave of court.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Deputizing for Fanslau's defense counsel. Will you please excuse the Defendant Fanslau on the coming Monday from this Tribunal for the further preparation of his defense?
THE PRESIDENT: Did you say "the Defendant Fanslau"?
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Yes, Your Honor, I am deputizing for his defense counsel.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Fanslau has already been heard.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Yes, that is correct. It is not for his examination in the witness dock, which has already been completed, but rather to discuss further evidence, for which he will need a whole day.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. The Defendant Fanslau will be excused from the session of court on the coming Monday.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Thank you, Your Honor.
RUDOLF SCHEINE -- Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION - Continued BY MR. WALTON:
Q. At the close of the session yesterday we were discussing your duties with regard to supplying of the various Amtsgruppen in WVHA with items of motor maintenance, such as spare parts, fuel, oil, tires, etc. For my information will you please repeat your answer to the following question: Could you, or anyone else, from looking at the requisitions or the requests for these items which came to your office from Amtsgruppe D have determined that Amtsgruppe D was making re-distribution of the items mentioned to the concentration camps?
A. I could not tell you that today, because I did not see always the lists for the requisition of spare parts. They went through the normal procedure to the Operational Main Office, and from there to the Army, and then they were assigned to the various Amtsgruppen. I had my own experts for that kind of work. Today I don't have the necessary papers to remember all those things.
Q. Did you ever know whether or not the concentration camps were engaged in war work for the Reich?
A. No, I could not tell you that either. That inmates were being used for work in concentration camps - that was now known to me. I remember one case which refers to the procurement of weapons. I stated that during my first examination also. After Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks had filed a request to the Operational Main Office concerning weapons, this request had to be denied because the Operational Main Office was no longer in possession of weapons. The Quartermaster Store of the Waffen-SS, which was at Oranienburg, and which I visited, was the occasion why I called on Gluecks. I told him all about it, whereupon he again became angry with me by saying, "I don't need your weapons. I got my own weapons through the firm of Steyer where I have inmates working for me." That was the only firm that I knew through Gluecks' statement, namely, where inmates were working or used there. I could not tell you in what connection, because this entire discussion between the two was not very pleasant.
Q. Did you know that Jews were placed in concentration camps?
A. No, I did not know that.
Q. Did you know that other nationalities besides Germans were placed in concentration camps?
A. Among these twenty inmates who worked for us there were no foreigners. I never did participate in any concentration camp conferences nor did I have anything to do with inmates. I could not give you any information at all as to that.
Q. Do you know who put these people into concentration camps?
A. I really assume that they were sent to concentration camps on the basis of a trial or a hearing given to them by German courts. I never would have thought it possible that in a state where there is order that someone else could simply be sent to a concentration camp because he was disliked.
Q. Then you state now that you never did know that while you were in the WVHA that certain people were put in concentration camps without any trial?
A. No, that was not known to me.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, the twenty workers that you had in the shop in Berlin - were they all Germans?
A. Yes, Your Honor, they were all Germans.
Q. Did you ever find out why these twenty men were in the concentration camps?
A. Your Honor, they were criminals, and I can recall one instance in that connection which I would like to tell you about in a few brief terms. I asked one of the inmates, "Why are you in the concentration camp?" "Well," he said, "I was a Communist functionary and I worked against the Reich as same. I published a few subversive pamphlets and drawings against the Reich. And they captured me on one occasion and put me in a concentration camp."
Mr. President, I really didn't believe that statements. I called up the Oberscharfuehrer of a little concentration camp, which was on Wismorerstrasse of which I know that the inmates were picked up in the morning by truck and brought back in the evening by truck after work. I asked him, "Can you tell me why that man is in a concentration camp." Whereupon he told me that same story, that he was a communist functionary. However, he forgot to tell me one detail, namely, that he was not in a concentration camp for that reason, but rather because he was creating trouble in the parts of Lichterfelds. That was why he was convicted on several occasions, and put in protective custody. Then on a second occasion I asked somebody, as I really had the impression that the inmates would not tell me why they were in the camp. Of course, I could not quite understand it, but on the other hand, nobody likes to talk about his criminal record. Due to that reason, and from moral personal reasons, I did not ask him any more questions. But they were not innocent, at least, sofar as those twenty Germans were concerned they were not innocent.
BY MR. WALTON:
Q let's return to the item of motor vehicles for a moment. When these requests would come in, would you consider it necessary to supply these items to Amtsgruppe-D, didn't you?
A Mr. Prosecutor, we don't quite understand each other on that. It did not quite work out that way, namely, that I had to deliver material. I had to be the liaison man with the Army Motor pools, of the homeland. I was not just a merchant who bought the spare parts, and sent them to Amtsgruppe-D, but rather Amtsgruppe-D had its own motor officer in charge there. He would come and visit my subordinate officer every four or six weeks, and we used to help them with two engineers whom I had at the time, who were division engineers of the Army, who knew all the men in charge of Army Motor pools in the homeland. That was how we put our help at the disposal of Amtsgruppe-D.
That was the most important part of Office B-5.
Q Then B-5 would help Amtsgruppe-D to get these items for use in their work?
A That was a matter of course. The Operational Main Office did the same thing.
Q Suppose that you had a request from Amtsgruppe-D, for example, that came to your office for ten-thousand truck tires, and by checking in their reports you found out that they only had two-thousand trucks of all types in operation. Regardless of whom signed this request, wouldn't you question such an exorbitant demand?
A Mr. Prosecutor, let me tell you the following things: Tenthousand truck tires, that is the entire amount that a German army needed for one whole year. When I worked for the 1st Armored Division I administered 7800 trucks, that means for one army, one-hundred-thousand trucks. Now if any tires were requisitioned-
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Then take another number. Take five-hundred tires, then it won't be so difficult. Suppose you had asked for five-hundred tires, for fifty trucks.
A Very well. Now if there were a requisition for tires any way, then that requisition was passed over to the Operational Main Office. The Operational Main Office, that is the chief himself approved the requisition of tires. Then the Amtsgruppe-D or C fetched the tires from the motor poo.
BY MR. WALTON:
Q Witness, you have testified that at the request from Amtsgrupppe-d, these item came to your office where they were consolidated, it makes no difference what is the figure. Suppose they asked for five-hundred tires, and you knew they only had fifty trucks. What I am trying to get from you is, where you knew the request was all out of proportion to the need, what action, if any, would you take on the request that you knew was out of proportion?
A I don't quite understand that question. I don't quite get it. I am sorry.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q If a requisition was for more tires than were needed, did you do anything about it?
A Your Honor, I passed on those requests for tires in their original form, because they were written on special forms, and I say it was not up to me if they were assigned those tires, or not. The Operational Office was the office in charge of me.
Q Did you ever decide whether there were too many tires in a requisition. Whether they asked for too many?
Q Did you decide that?
A You mean if there were too many tires. No, never, Your Honor, because not enough cold be requested. The way it worked out in Germany, we had to renew the tires, or rather re-vulcanize them. When a tire is used up in the States, then they threw it away.
Q No.
AAfter having driven it forty-five thousand kilometers, you just throw it away.
Q. No.
A. After having driven it forty-five thousand kilometers, you just throw it away.
Q Oh, no.
A Well, may e they are saving there too. That lack of tires was the reason why we told them again and again "Let's have your tires," as we would re-vulcunize all the tires. Now a request, that would be out of proportion would be useless, because it would not be approved. The situation was much too bad for that.
Q Then your answer is, you never decided whether or not there were too many tires asked for?
A No.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q As a motor expert, didn't you check all the requests for the items which you supplied to see if they were in line with the normal needs of the Amtsgruppen?
A I told you before that applied to Amtsgruppen C and B. It did not apply to Amtsgruppen D. The Operational Main Office had an expert of its own, and he was the man who checked up on these things, and, as he was a representative of the Operational Main Office, I really didn't see any reason to criticize his actions because he knew the situation as well as I did.
Q Well, your testimony this morning is slightly at variance with the affidavit which you signed and which is Document 2612, Prosecution Exhibit 10, and contained in Prosecution Document Book 1 on page 48. On Page 50 you make the following statement:
"When I came to the WVHA, Gruppenfuehrer Loerner commissioned me to bring all motor vehicles, weapons, and railroad transports under this office, so that in the future everyone who had anything to do with them or with the use of fuel, oil, tires, etc., was to report to me or my office."
Now this morning you state that Amtsgruppe D had their own technical expert who was competent to requisition these. Which statement is correct?
A It is not quite that way, that the first statement is wrong. The first statement is correct. The first statement refers to Amtsgruppen A, B, and C. When I joined the WVHA, and I told that in my examination also--I first of all fixed up Amtsgruppe C. Amtsgruppe D had already received their technical lead from the Death Head Units, and it did not renounce that technical leadership.
Q As a motor expert, could not you have determined from the papers that channeled through your office what the normal needs of each Amtsgruppe were?
A Well, yes, in a general sense.
Q Now, it would be impossible for you to determine these normal Court No. II, Case No. 4.needs unless you knew generally what type of work each Amtsgruppe was engaged in, wouldn't it?
A I told you yesterday that the Amtsgruppe Chief was responsible for that, because he signed those things. After all, I don't have the right to control him all the time, and tell him that this and that is wrong. As far as Amtsgruppen A, B, and C were concerned, I was assigned to help them directly, but it did not apply to D, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q But from your technical knowledge and from the papers in your office, you could have, if you had wanted to, found out the normal needs of Amtsgruppe D in the items of motor maintenance, couldn't you?
A I told you yesterday that those were supply trucks, of Amtsgruppe D. As far as we could, we helped them. As far as I could see, I knew that they had to supply the camps. That is why we had to see to it that they were always in good maintenance. This does not mean that I had to look after it personally, but the technical leader in Amtsgruppe D had to see to it.
Q But the papers existed in your office where you could have informed yourself of the normal needs for Amtsgruppe D in the items of fuel, tires, spare parts, etc., didn't they?
A Yes, indeed, of course.
Q Now, you could have thus learned, if you had so desired, since you could have found out the normal needs of Amtsgruppe D, you could have also learned what work the concentration camps performed for the Reich, couldn't you?
A You see, those request slips were not quite detailed. They were consolidated for Amtsgruppe D for so and so many vehicles. You are getting the whole thing out of context, Mr. Prosecutor. If I take everything and if I know everything about the concentration camps and if I am present in every conference, then I would be able to answer your question up to 100 per cent. Unfortunately, now I can not tell you anything because 90% of all the answers you want me to give you, I can't give.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q If you had wanted to, you could have learned in general terms what type of work the concentration camps were doing from these papers in your office, couldn't you?
A No, I could not have done that. It is absolutely impossible.
Q Well, if these facts were known to you, it would follow that you would have some knowledge of the part that your office B-V had, either directly or indirectly, in the WVHA concentration camp system, would it not?
A If that had been known to me, but it was not known to me.
Q Did requisitions for the items of motor maintenance that we are speaking of this morning come to your office from Division W?
A Generally speaking, no. Amtsgruppe W had a few SS vehicles which had been assigned to them by the Operational Main Office. They were reported to us, indeed. However, what purposes they served I could not tell you. The way I think it was, was that those vehicles had only an SS registration number so that they could be driven during the war. In other words, I would like to assume that they were the property of various firms.
Q Did requisitions for motor transports or rail transports come to your office from Division W?
A Neither for truck transports nor for rail transports. They were private firms, as far as I was concerned, and I could not possibly put any government property at their disposal for transportation, because they would have had to pay for it. In other words, they simply had to apply to the railroad transports.
Q Now, did I understand you to say that you do not remember consolidating any requests from Division W for such things as fuel, oil, tires, and spare parts?
A The Operational Main Office had a small monthly quote of fuel for the economic enterprises, a small amount for the various economic industries. It amounted to probably 500 to 600 liters of gasoline. Now, when I established the office, it worked that way already. They Court No. II, Case No. 4.would run and see Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, and I really could not tell you what the background was about it at all, because I don't know anything about it.
Q Wasn't it a little strange, where transportation got very soon to be a critical item, that you had to consolidate a few requests, even from firms that you considered as private firms? Why did you not suggest that these firms apply to the civilian ministry in control of such items?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I can tell you the following: There was no greater opponent of the economic enterprises with the WVHA than I was, not because I knew the work of those economic enterprises, but simply because I looked upon them as private enterprises, and in the WVHA I had to represent the interests of my office.
Q It never occurred to you to question why any private firms were calling upon the WVHA for such items as we are speaking of now?
A I knew that Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl was the chief of those economic enterprises. During my entire activity in the WVHA I did not see any of those firms personally. I do not know of a single enterprise, and I heard about the installations and the machines in the economic enterprises here for the first time. Nobody in the WVHA thought it important to inform me on those things.
Q And you supplied these items in a small way, even, to firms which were known as SS economic enterprises?
A I personally only carried out the order of the Operational Main Office, and I gave them that small amount of fuel per month, and there is no question about material.
Q According to your testimony, all the rifles in your charge, which amounted to some 15,000, were distributed to the guard teams of the concentration camps. Can you explain why this was necessary that they channeled through your office, since Amtsgruppe D was the sole recipient of these weapons?
A I did not quite get that question.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q You testified yesterday that some 15,000 rifles were in your charge.
A I stated the following: Amtsgruppe D--No, I am going to correct myself, the entire WVHA, including Amtsgruppe D, had reported 15,000 rifles. In other words, those 15,000 rifles were contained in our books which we kept by order of the WVHA. The rifles were sent to the concentration camps directly from the WVHA through the Quartermaster Stores already in earlier times.
Q Now, these 15,000 rifles were shown in the books of Office B-V?
A Yes.
Q And after they were distributed, that is, after they were in the hands of those people who actually used them, they came under the supervision of Amtsgruppe D?
A What do you mean, "under the supervision?" How am I to understand that, Mr. Prosecutor?
Q You had them on the books of Office B-V, but the concentration camp guards who used these rifles were under Amtsgruppe D.
A Yes.
Q Therefore, while you carried them on your books, the actual control and supervision of these rifles were under Amtsgruppe D?
A Yes.
Q.- Why wasn't it the logical channel for Amtsgruppe D to make their request for weapons directly to the operational main office since your office apparently had little part in the matter, according to your statement?
A.- It was an order by the operational main office that all requests for weapons which came from WVHA should be consolidated in one office. The operational main office no longer wanted receive all requests from all the agencies of WVHA. As I told you before all those things are stated in the order concerning the establishment of the WVHA.
Q.- After your rather disagreeable experiences with Gluecks, particularly in the matter of weapons, did you ever think of asking for relief from such a disagreeable task concerning these weapons.
A.- Did I do something about it?
Q.- Did you ask to be excused from having anything to do with weapons for concentration camps after your unpleasant experience with Gluecks which you have related?
A.- There was no reason because one has a disagreement to throw everything in their face.
Q.- I believe in your interrogation you relate that you accuse Gluecks of embezzling arms and you came back and reported it to your chief, Loerner; now, don't you feel if Gluecks would embezzle weapons it would be hard for you to assume the responsibility for weapons you knew nothing about?
A.- Yes, that is quite correct. It wasn't quite that way, that I wanted to renounce my responsibility for that. That was my duty and I did so because in this case Amtsgruppe D gypped us. We were gypped by them, but the main office was too.
Q.- You could not ask to be relieved since you could not control these weapons?
A.- After all I didn't have to control the weapons. That is why things continued that way. In one of my documents, for instance, it is stated quite clearly that the control of the weapons in the concentration camp, all the inspections etc, etc.
were carried out by the main office directly and all we had to do was assemble all the reports monthly, and I informed the main office about Amtsgruppe D. It couldn't have been my business to tell the General what was right, but it would have been the business of the main office to stop these things.
Q.- In your interrogation of 24 November 1946 you stated in addition to 15,000 rifles you had about 30 machine guns which you carried on your books; do you wish to amend your direct testimony yesterday to include these machine guns?
A.- Yes, I imagine they were in there.
Q.- From your experience in the WVHA you knew that these weapons would be used in concentration camps, didn't you?
A.- How am I to understand that, would be used?
Q.- You knew that the weapons which went to Amtsgruppe D would in return be redistributed to concentration camp guard teams, did you not?
A.- That the guards had the weapons was known to me, of course.
Q.- And as a reasonable man you could conceive the idea that there was a strong possibility that in the course of time these weapons would be used for extermination in the concentration camps, couldn't you?
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, my opinion about a soldier is to high that I would think a soldier would do such a thing, and never in my life would I have thought that mass extermination or similar things would be carried out with these weapons, because if I would have thought such a thing I would have jumped out of that boat immediately.
Q.- It never occurred to you that these rifles could be used illegally?
A.- Absolutely impossible.
Q.- When Pohl signed this order in July 1942 requiring all arms of all Amtsgruppen D to be reported to you, didn't you interpret that order to give you the necessary authority to enforce it?
A.- Would you repeat the question, please?
Q.- I speak now of the order Pohl signed in 1942 requiring all of the weapons to be reported to you. Did you also interpret this order to give you the necessary authority to demand those reports from all Amtsgruppen?
A.- Of course, because that was the order issued by the operational main office to.
Q.- When Gluecks refused to cooperate in the matter of arms for Amtsgruppe D when you interviewed him, why didn't you report him to Pohl his superior, as well as yours?
A.- It was reported to Pohl through Gruppenfuehrer Loerner. However, I thought it much better to report it also to the Chief of the Operational Main Office by going through Office VII in the operational main office.
Q.- Did your relationship clear up with Gluecks after this incident was reported to the Chief Pohl?
A.- That is something that occurred on one occasion. When it occurred Mr. Prosecutor, I simply couldn't tell you today. I had nothing else to do with Gluecks personally. The reports arrived monthly on special forms, and our activities ceased there, our prints of contact.
Q.- Why was it when arms were furnished by the skyer firm, for example to Amtsgruppe D, these same weapons did not become WVHA property as well as Amtsgrupp D property?
A.- I simply couldn't tell you that, Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know anything about that field of tasks.
Q.- You stated that Gluecks told you that he would get weapons whereever you could find them, and that the Steyer firm supplied you with these weapons; what I want to know is why these weapons that were supplied by the Steyer firm didn't go on your books as part of the weapons which you were keeping an account of?
A.- After all they didn't come from the operational main office. Af ter all I couldn't answer for weapons which came from any place, which did not come through regular channels, and keep them on my books.
That is out of the question and quite impossible with a normal procedure. That was a task of Amtsgruppe D, as before. Is was not my task.
Q.- Did you refuse to take cognizance of anything except the rifles which was directly issued by the operational main office?
A.- Yes, of the ones which were sent by the operational main office in a regular way.
Q.- Even though these weapons were with Gluecks in Amtsgruppe D could not Pohl have ordered them all reported to you as WVHA property?
A.- Yes, maybe he could have given that order. However, I did not receive such an order.
Q.- Witness, I put it to you as a matter of logic; this Tribunal from the evidence in your case could conclude in part at least that you saw to it that the concentration camps had motor equipment with which to work?
A.- Yes.
Q.- That you supplied all the necessary items for maintenance for this equipment, so that the highest efficiency under the circumstances was constantly maintained?
A.- I stated before that one cannot speak of any efficiency in this particular case, for the reason that these vehicles which were in the homeland were old vehicles, they were mostly driven with wood gas. All the vehicles of the WVHA were simply to be looked upon as supply vehicles. No one could possibly speak of a support of industrial enterprises in similar things, or maybe I don't know anything any more about vehicles.
Q.- But you supplied what you could to see that these trucks and cars ran as best they could under the circumstances at that time, didn't you?
A.- According to my orders from the operational main office I did my duty.
Q.- You were concerned chiefly with supplying the means whereby all concentration camp inmates could be liquidated if they failed to work in a satisfactory manner; could not this tribunal so conclude these three facts?
A.- No, it is not quite possible, Mr. Prosecutor, because first of all one has to know about the liquidation of human beings.
Q.- On direct examination yesterday, according to my memory, you categorically denied ever having anything to do with the transport of human beings; however, you knew, did you not, that concentration camp inmates were being transported by rail?
A.- That also was unknown to me.
Q.- Let's get to the example -
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. You did know that were being transported somehow?
A.- Yes, of course, I did. I knew that.
Q.- And how did you think they were being transported?
A.- You mean that the concentration camp inmates were transported? I know those things now, Your Honor. I never dealt with that stuff before, because I didn't have to.
Q.- In 1944 didn't you know inmates were moved from one camp to another?
A.- No, it was not known to me, Your Honor. It really was not known to me.
Q.- You knew they were moved into the camp?
A Even that was not known to me, Your Honor. However, I can imagine that they were transferred to the camps in vehicles. I can imagine it, but I never did have anything to do with it.
Q You don't have to imagine it. They couldn't get into the camps without being transported, could they?
A Would you repeat that, please?
Q The inmates couldn't get into the camps without being transported?
A Of course not, Your Honor.
Q That is very simple, isn't it?
A Yes, of course it is simple, Your Honor.
Q How did you think they got into the camps; how were they transported there?
A Your Honor, I really don't know the extent of the concentration camp inmate transports. I simply can't imagine it. Of course, I do realize that when major transports were carried out they had to be transported by rail.
Q Sure.
A There is no other possibility.
Q That is right. You knew they didn't come in by boat?
A Yes, of course.
Q And they didn't walk?
A That I really couldn't tell you, Your Honor. I don't know. It is only today that I can imagine something about it due to the documents I saw. Prior to that no requests, no requisition slips came to me, nor did I ever see any marches, long columns of inmates who were walking to the concentration camps. Of course I do know that inmates were in the concentration camps and they didn't walk the whole distance, and they were transported, that is correct, yes.
Q Transported in railway cars and wagons?