The two last documents will receive Exhibit Numbers 25 and 26. No. 25 applied to No. 31, and No. 26 to No. 32.
THE WITNESS: I would like to tell you the following thing. All those camps are the same ones only the names are different.
DR. HOFFMANN: I have additional documents in my document book. However, I should like to introduce those documents, with the permission of the Tribunal, after the termination of the cross-examination. I have, therefore, completed the direct examination of the defendant Scheide. I shall introduce the document books after the cross examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any cross examination by the other Defense Counsel? If not, the Prosecution may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. WALTON:
Q Witness, I should like to direct your attention again to 1 October 1942, the date when you reported to duty in Amtsgruppe B. Now, I believe you stated in your direct testimony that as soon as you stated your qualifications to both Pohl and Loerner, you were directed to form your office B-V, and you were given a fairly free hand in the formation of your duties and responsibilities. Is that correct?
A Mr. Prosecutor, that was to be expected, I mean professionally, but of course, there was a certain line we had to follow.
Q Now, I believe you stated also that the first, practically the first, thing that you did after taking over and making your survey of the needs of your office was to confer in the FHA, or Operational Main Office, with certain officials there.
That is correct, is it not?
A Yes, indeed.
Q And, on the basis of the Loerner direction given to you and on the further basis of your conference with the Operation Main Office officials, you drew a directive to be distributed--where?
A Mr. Prosecutor, you are starting from the wrong angle. The way the thing developed was that this Office B-V was not established upon Gruppenfuehrer Loerner's suggestion nor upon the WVHA's, but actually at the suggestion of the FHA, or Operational Main Office, because there was a necessity for it. Then it is correct that the regulations came out.
Q Now, this regulation was in effect drawn by you; that is correct?
A Yes, it was drawn up in the Operational Main Office, because it was written up in the Operational Main Office with the collaboration of all the experts there, and then submitted to Obergruppenfuehrer Loerner, because the Operational Main Office could not issue direct orders.
Q And finally Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl approved it, and then ii went out; is that correct?
A Yes, of course.
Q Now, my question is: To whom was this directive sent?
AAny directive was sent to all the Amtsgruppen.
Q In the WVHA?
A Yes, quite.
Q Now, in this directive, according to my memory, you asked for a report of all Amtsgruppen on the number of motor vehicles, the number of arms on hand, the amount of gasoline stock on hand, and the number of railroad transports on hand; that is correct, is it not?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Yes, that is what was compiled monthly, as far as railroad transports were concerned, with the exception of Amtsgruppe D.
Q What, if you recall, was the approximate total number of motor vehicles reported to you in compliance with your directive?
A In the WVHA there was about a total of 2,000 motor vehicles of which 800 belonged to Amtsgruppe D for "Dog", and the remainder were distributed all over the remaining offices of the main offices. I really couldn't tell you how many sedans we had or what the gasoline consumption was. I really couldn't tell you all about it.
Q Now, what was the highest number of motor vehicles of all types under your jurisdiction at any one time during your service in WVHA?
A Well, it is about 2,000.
Q Now, the Prosecution -
A Mr. Prosecutor, I forgot to add something. You told me, "those that were under my charge." I just want to tell you they were not subordinate to me. The agencies were in charge of the motor vehicles. I was only supposed to pass on the reports on the motor vehicles and Army orders, and if you say they were subordinate to me, then I would have been able to dispose over them at all times, which I could not.
Q The Prosecution is in possession of a document which purports to be a recommendation for your preferential promotion, which was forwarded over the signatures of Georg Loerner and Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl. Now, in this document, in order to attain your promotion from Sturmbannfuehrer to Obersturmbannfuehrer, your chief states that you had in your office some 5,000 vehicles. The date of that document is 17th of September, 1943.
AAll I can tell you, Mr. Prosecutor, is that at that time a few more were added for the sake of the promotion.
DR. HOFFMAN: Your Honor, I believe it would be best if the Prosecution would show the document to the defendant.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
THE PRESIDENT: It may say that or it may say some additional things which he is entitled to see.
MR. WALTON: It was anticipated that he would call for it, your Honor. That is why I brought it.
THE WITNESS: Well, as far as those 5,000 motor vehicles are concerned, I can only tell you the following, that it was done simply for my sake, but actually they needn't have taken 3,000 additional ones in order to get me promoted. I am sorry, but I really can't think of any more than 2,000 vehicles, even if I did get my promotion, but for the rest is concerned, the document speaks for itself.
Q (By Mr. Walton) Then you would say that for a good employee your office chief would stretch the truth a bit in order to get him promoted?
A That is the way it was.
Q. Now of the 2,000 figure which you now give, as different from the figure contained in the document which you have, can you give an estimated percentage of the number of vehicles which were allotted at any one time to Amtsgruppe C?
A I would estimate that the motor vehicles of Amtsgruppe C amounted to approximately 600. Mr. Prosecutor, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that it really did not work out that way, that all those reports went through my office every month. I can't give you all the details about it because I just don't remember all the figures, but I am terribly sorry that all my documents and my papers were lost due to an air raid in the Tyrol.
Q Witness, a proximate figure will be quite sufficient. Now, when you made the allotments or obtained the trucks for Amtsgruppe C, you knew, did you not, what type of work they were performing in this division?
A I stated before that whenever something works out well, we didn't pay any attention to it, and Amtsgruppe C received many, many vehicles from private firms. I really couldn't possibly tell you today Court No. II, Case No. 4.how many there were, because there were quite a few of them, and they had a lot of work to do, and I just couldn't tell you how many vehicles they needed and they saved.
It changed so often.
Q Did you know what type of work Amtsgruppe C was doing at this time you were in charge of Office B-V?
A I can't tell you anything at all about the tasks of Amtsgruppe C and their work for the very simple reason -
Q I didn't ask you that. I asked you, did you know of your own knowledge what type of work Amtsgruppe C was doing at this time.
A No.
Q Then it follows that you had no knowledge of where Amtsgruppe C got their labor?
A No, I just couldn't tell you that. I don't know it.
Q Then on what basis did you consider you had the authority to obtain for Amtsgruppe C ten heavy trucks on any requests which Amtsgruppe C would make to you?
A I told you before, Mr. Prosecutor, that when I returned home from the front line, a general was a general to me. When General Kammler told me at the time, "I need the vehicles", and he really paid a lot of attention to his own rank, then I just couldn't refuse, because using a colloquialism, he would have rapped me over the knuckles, and I would have been kicked out. All I could tell him was, "I can't give you any vehicles because the Operational Main Office does not have any", and that was the answer which everyone of them received when they came to see me about vehicles.
Q How do you know then that the requests made by Amtsgruppe C through your office were legitimate ones?
A Because the chief of the Amtsgruppe was responsible for it.
Q Then you honored all requests from Amtsgruppe C regardless of who signed the requests, is that correct?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I never did approve any. Let me explain to you again the way the allocation was done. Now the request by the chief Court No. II, Case No. 4.of the Amtsgruppe C first of all goes to B5 and then to the Operational Main Office.
Then the Operational Main Office has a conference for experts, on Wednesdays and Saturdays, and the letter of Office B-5 is submitted here, which is a request from all the Amtsgruppen, and it is approved there or refused.
Q Maybe I can refresh your memory with an interrogation which you had on the 2nd of December, 1946. In answer to a question you said, "He", meaning Ewert, "was responsible for the entire traffic system, also for special measures within Division C." Can you still make that statement?
A Yes, that also is correct.
Q Then the question was asked you, "Please explain these special measures in greater detail; what were these tasks?" And in answer you are purported to have said, "These special tasks were all top secret, and we got to know about them insofar as we had to supply motor vehicles to these points, trucks and passenger cars," and then you went on to tell about the manufacture of the V-weapons. So, as a matter of fact you did know some of the tasks which were performed by Amtsgruppe C, did you not?
A That is the way it was, Mr. Prosecutor. Let me tell you now, if you are discussing and look at the entirety, and I don't mean the entirety of the examination because then you wouldn't understand a thing anyway, Hauptsturmfuehrer Ewert was in charge of the transportation in Office B-V, which is absolutely correct, for Kammler. He passed on the requests from Kammler, and that was another channel. That was the channel from the chief of the high command of the Army directly down. That is correct. Now, if you are asked to go to an examination all of a sudden without having any document at all, concerning such a large field of task, and you are to talk about it, then it isn't very simple. According to its sense, it is absolutely correct.
Q All right, Witness, we will pass on. Now, did I understand you to say that you did not ever supply any trucks to Amtsgruppe D?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Of course Amtsgruppe D received trucks from me although not through Office B-V, but it went through the Operational Main Office. It received Sixty motor vehicles on one occasion, and Schulz could select a large number of motor vehicles again anywhere in the Reich.
Q Now let me give you an example. Suppose Amtsgruppe D made a request of you for trucks and you sent it on to the Operational Main Office, and at the time the Operational Main Office received this request, it was unable to fulfill it, and suppose further that your office had on hand enough vehicles to fill or partially fill this request, and this fact was known to the Operational Main Office, would you then fill this order as best you could and turn over to Amtsgruppe D the vehicles?
A Mr. Prosecutor, let me explain to you that too. According to your question you try to create the impression that Office B-V had an enormous motor pool, and it really did not. Where was I to get the vehicles from? All I could do was simply request the vehicles from the Operational Main Office. Now, if the Operational Main Office gave me the vehicles, then rest assured, I passed them on.
Q Suppose though that you had some vehicles on hand and the Operational Main Office was unable to fill the order for Amtsgruppe D, would there be any reason, or any chance of your turning over some vehicles you had on hand to Amtsgruppe D?
A I told you before, Mr. Prosecutor, it is natural that when motor vehicles from the Operational Main Office were assigned to me, then, of course, they were passed on to Amtsgruppe D, and I told you of one case where the WVHA received motor vehicles from dissolved agencies in the east, and I gave Schulz the permission to pick out anything he wanted. He had to have all those vehicles repaired, everyone of them.
Q Would it be true then, to say that everytime you were called on by Amtsgruppe D for vehicles you did the best you could to see that they received what vehicles they requested?
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, if they had requested again and again they would have received something again and again. During the entire time they only received something on one occasion. Conditions were such they could have returned again and again and I simply couldn't give them vehicles. That's how it was.
Q.- All right. You knew the Motor Transportation Officer Schulz in Amtsgruppe D. Now when Schulz received these 60 vehicles or 100 vehicles from you, did you not know to what use Schulz would put these vehicles?
A.- Of course, Mr. Prosecutor, they would use them as supply vehicles for concentration camps.
Q.- Did you ever consider that these same vehicles that you turned over to Schulz could be used for transport of racially undesirable persons and other persons to gas chambers and places of execution?
A.- No, Mr. Prosecutor, I never did have any misgivings about that because I didn't know it.
Q.- You knew that there were concentration camps within the borders of the Reich, did you not?
A.- Yes, that was known to me.
Q.- And you knew generally what these concentration camps performed in the way of work for its inmates, did you not?
A.- No, even that wasn't know to me. I knew that inmates were working However, what type of work they were performing I couldn't tell you. Did not know it at the time.
Q.- Did you not know as general knowledge that was known all over the Reich that executions took place in concentration camps?
A.- I don't believe that was known all over the Reich because if it had been I would have known it, too. I didn't know it.
Q.- Until after the War you never knew that executions took place in concentration camps?
A.- How am I to understand your question, What do you mean "after the war"?
Q.- You state that during the time you were in Amtsgruppe B-V, which was from 1942 until approximately the end of the War, you did not know that executions took place in concentration camps. I merely stated that it is logical then to say that you did not know, or did you, that executions took place in concentration camps until after the War.
A.- No, that wasn't known to me. I only gained that knowledge after the War.
Q.- Coming back to your issue of motor vehicles to Schulz in Amtsgruppe D, it follows logically that whether you knew it or not you and your office were connected with forced labor in the concentration camps according to the reasoning which you have given there on the stand and the information which has come out in this trial.
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, if you consider my good will when I let an inmate have what he wants, if you consider that slave labor, I can say these people were working with me yes, but I would like to add the following concerning their treatment. After I had heard about those things after the war I was glad those 20 men had worked in my section because nothing happened to them there.
Q.- Then it follows that it would be true to say that since the ultimate use of these vehicles that you delivered to Amtsgruppe B and C I am sorry - Amtsgruppe C and D, since they did not directly concern you or Amtsgrupp B V you did not know or care to what use these vehicles were put? Can you say that?
A.- That Amtsgrupp C did constructions I knew. I also knew that they transported construction material. That Amtsgruppe D had concentration camps I knew that, too. That they used those vehicles I know that for concentration camps and concentration camp inmates and that Amtsgruppe B needed trucks in order to transport clothing and supplies was also known to me.
Q.- Now let us pass on to your testimony concerning your duties as being responsible for such items as fuel, oil, tires, spare parts, etc.
Requests from all Descriptivism for these items channeled through your office is that true?
A.- Yes.
Q.- If Amtsgruppe D and C made requests for these items to your office like A & B were they fulfilled as best your office could at all times?
A.- Here's the way it was Mr. Prosecutor. The first thing in requesting spare parts is not that the office compiles those requests but if the parts are available. You tell the requesting agency to go to the Motor Pool and get the spare parts. We informed those Motor Pols through regular channels to issue them the spare parts. That was the task of Office B-V.
Q.- Now suppose you take Amtsgruppe D's request for these items for any period of time, such as a month or a year, could one by looking at these requests tell that Amtsgruppe D would make redistribution to concentration camps of these items?
A.- I can't tell you that any more today, Mr. Prosecutor. I just don't know anything about it. All I know is there were certain forms which were used for requests, particularly spare parts and all the things that go along with it.
Q.- Now it was known to you and to your office that if it could not find a supply of these items which were needed for Amtsgruppe D the concentration camps didn't get them either, did they?
A.- In the concentration camps there were other channels to get things. And I shall submit an affidavit for that too. This affidavit will prove that to you. I can't tell you about it from my own knowledge but I have learned from reliable sources what channels they were, because I am personally interested to get the whole thing cleared up. On the basis of the trial records here I can only see the connections Amtsgruppe D had to many outside firms. Many things are clear here today that were not clear before.
Q.- Well would you say then that if you didn't make supply of fuel, oil, gas, and tires to Amtsgruppe D, they in turn could not supply them to the different concentration camps and therefore concentration camps would be without these items. Would you say that now?
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, Amtsgruppe D received its share just like any other Amtsgruppes, in as much as that was still possible. I saw to that. I couldn't possibly give them more than that - there wasn't .....
Q.- You have not yet answered my question. For the third time. You knew that if you did not supply these requested items to Amtsgruppe D they could not make distribution to concentration camps and, therefore, concentration camps couldn't get them. Would you make that statement today?
A.- Couldn't have received them? Then they probably would have referred to the Operational Main Office which was the office controlling me. They would have gotten the things somehow.
Q.- All right. Now, if these items could not be supplied to concentration camps the concentration camps couldn't contribute their part to the Reich War effort, could they?
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, this is way it worked. Since you are talking about the war effort: all vehicles which went to the concentration camps were only known to me as supply vehicles of the concentration camps and has nothing to do with industries which worked in or outside of the concentration camp. From the evidence here, from your 23 Document Books you submitted, I have seen that firms which wanted to have inmates also had to supply trucks to pick up the inmates and transport material and several other things. For us in Office B-V there were nothing but supply vehicles.
Q.- You knew during your time as office chief of B-V that concentration camps were contributing their part to the Reich War effort, did you not?
A.- That also was unknown to me. I never thought they were important enough to support the war effort in that way, I didn't know the size of the concentration camps, didn't see any of them, only today on the basis of documents can I imagine it all.
Q.- Were you not interested in seeing that every person with which you had any contact at all contributed to the Reich War effort during your term in office?
A.- One can also call that thing cc duty. Mr. Prosecutor, I did my duty and I expected everybody else to do his duty.
Q.- Then you considered it your duty to make every effort as far as you were personally able to fulfill all these requests whether they came from Amtsgruppe A or D, that is correct, is it not?
A.- No, you can't quite put it that way. I always had to do my job. We always had to try hard in order to comply with all those requests. If there was a necessity for a request - if the request was justified it was signed by an Amtsgruppe Chief, and, of course, we did what we could. That was our duty.
Q.- And if these request signed by Amtsgruppe D chief came in you, you did all you could to see that these requests were fulfilled, did you not?
A.- I told you before Mr. Prosecutor, we received 60 vehicles on one occasion and then 10 more.
Q.- I know about the 60 vehicles. I am now talking about supplies the tires, the gas, the spare parts, the oil. When these requests came in you did your level best to see what that these requests were honored, did you not?
A.- No, that isn't correct either. Those additional quantities received by Amtsgruppe D or somebody else were not fixed by me but the Operational Main Office according to the number of vehicles and amount of miles travelled.
Q.- Didn't you see that Amtsgruppe A got all of its request filled as far as you could?
A.- Amtsgruppe A?
Q.- Yes.
A.- Well what does Amtsgruppe A have to do with vehicles?
Q.- That was your job, not mine.
A.- Yes, I see. I am sorry. I thought we were talking about something else.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until tomorrow morning.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 11 July 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. 2.
Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will indicate that the Defendant Volk is absent from this session of court at the request of counsel and by leave of court.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Deputizing for Fanslau's defense counsel. Will you please excuse the Defendant Fanslau on the coming Monday from this Tribunal for the further preparation of his defense?
THE PRESIDENT: Did you say "the Defendant Fanslau"?
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Yes, Your Honor, I am deputizing for his defense counsel.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Fanslau has already been heard.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Yes, that is correct. It is not for his examination in the witness dock, which has already been completed, but rather to discuss further evidence, for which he will need a whole day.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. The Defendant Fanslau will be excused from the session of court on the coming Monday.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Thank you, Your Honor.
RUDOLF SCHEINE -- Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION - Continued BY MR. WALTON:
Q. At the close of the session yesterday we were discussing your duties with regard to supplying of the various Amtsgruppen in WVHA with items of motor maintenance, such as spare parts, fuel, oil, tires, etc. For my information will you please repeat your answer to the following question: Could you, or anyone else, from looking at the requisitions or the requests for these items which came to your office from Amtsgruppe D have determined that Amtsgruppe D was making re-distribution of the items mentioned to the concentration camps?
A. I could not tell you that today, because I did not see always the lists for the requisition of spare parts. They went through the normal procedure to the Operational Main Office, and from there to the Army, and then they were assigned to the various Amtsgruppen. I had my own experts for that kind of work. Today I don't have the necessary papers to remember all those things.
Q. Did you ever know whether or not the concentration camps were engaged in war work for the Reich?
A. No, I could not tell you that either. That inmates were being used for work in concentration camps - that was now known to me. I remember one case which refers to the procurement of weapons. I stated that during my first examination also. After Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks had filed a request to the Operational Main Office concerning weapons, this request had to be denied because the Operational Main Office was no longer in possession of weapons. The Quartermaster Store of the Waffen-SS, which was at Oranienburg, and which I visited, was the occasion why I called on Gluecks. I told him all about it, whereupon he again became angry with me by saying, "I don't need your weapons. I got my own weapons through the firm of Steyer where I have inmates working for me." That was the only firm that I knew through Gluecks' statement, namely, where inmates were working or used there. I could not tell you in what connection, because this entire discussion between the two was not very pleasant.
Q. Did you know that Jews were placed in concentration camps?
A. No, I did not know that.
Q. Did you know that other nationalities besides Germans were placed in concentration camps?
A. Among these twenty inmates who worked for us there were no foreigners. I never did participate in any concentration camp conferences nor did I have anything to do with inmates. I could not give you any information at all as to that.
Q. Do you know who put these people into concentration camps?
A. I really assume that they were sent to concentration camps on the basis of a trial or a hearing given to them by German courts. I never would have thought it possible that in a state where there is order that someone else could simply be sent to a concentration camp because he was disliked.
Q. Then you state now that you never did know that while you were in the WVHA that certain people were put in concentration camps without any trial?
A. No, that was not known to me.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, the twenty workers that you had in the shop in Berlin - were they all Germans?
A. Yes, Your Honor, they were all Germans.
Q. Did you ever find out why these twenty men were in the concentration camps?
A. Your Honor, they were criminals, and I can recall one instance in that connection which I would like to tell you about in a few brief terms. I asked one of the inmates, "Why are you in the concentration camp?" "Well," he said, "I was a Communist functionary and I worked against the Reich as same. I published a few subversive pamphlets and drawings against the Reich. And they captured me on one occasion and put me in a concentration camp."
Mr. President, I really didn't believe that statements. I called up the Oberscharfuehrer of a little concentration camp, which was on Wismorerstrasse of which I know that the inmates were picked up in the morning by truck and brought back in the evening by truck after work. I asked him, "Can you tell me why that man is in a concentration camp." Whereupon he told me that same story, that he was a communist functionary. However, he forgot to tell me one detail, namely, that he was not in a concentration camp for that reason, but rather because he was creating trouble in the parts of Lichterfelds. That was why he was convicted on several occasions, and put in protective custody. Then on a second occasion I asked somebody, as I really had the impression that the inmates would not tell me why they were in the camp. Of course, I could not quite understand it, but on the other hand, nobody likes to talk about his criminal record. Due to that reason, and from moral personal reasons, I did not ask him any more questions. But they were not innocent, at least, sofar as those twenty Germans were concerned they were not innocent.
BY MR. WALTON:
Q let's return to the item of motor vehicles for a moment. When these requests would come in, would you consider it necessary to supply these items to Amtsgruppe-D, didn't you?
A Mr. Prosecutor, we don't quite understand each other on that. It did not quite work out that way, namely, that I had to deliver material. I had to be the liaison man with the Army Motor pools, of the homeland. I was not just a merchant who bought the spare parts, and sent them to Amtsgruppe-D, but rather Amtsgruppe-D had its own motor officer in charge there. He would come and visit my subordinate officer every four or six weeks, and we used to help them with two engineers whom I had at the time, who were division engineers of the Army, who knew all the men in charge of Army Motor pools in the homeland. That was how we put our help at the disposal of Amtsgruppe-D.
That was the most important part of Office B-5.
Q Then B-5 would help Amtsgruppe-D to get these items for use in their work?
A That was a matter of course. The Operational Main Office did the same thing.
Q Suppose that you had a request from Amtsgruppe-D, for example, that came to your office for ten-thousand truck tires, and by checking in their reports you found out that they only had two-thousand trucks of all types in operation. Regardless of whom signed this request, wouldn't you question such an exorbitant demand?
A Mr. Prosecutor, let me tell you the following things: Tenthousand truck tires, that is the entire amount that a German army needed for one whole year. When I worked for the 1st Armored Division I administered 7800 trucks, that means for one army, one-hundred-thousand trucks. Now if any tires were requisitioned-
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Then take another number. Take five-hundred tires, then it won't be so difficult. Suppose you had asked for five-hundred tires, for fifty trucks.
A Very well. Now if there were a requisition for tires any way, then that requisition was passed over to the Operational Main Office. The Operational Main Office, that is the chief himself approved the requisition of tires. Then the Amtsgruppe-D or C fetched the tires from the motor poo.
BY MR. WALTON:
Q Witness, you have testified that at the request from Amtsgrupppe-d, these item came to your office where they were consolidated, it makes no difference what is the figure. Suppose they asked for five-hundred tires, and you knew they only had fifty trucks. What I am trying to get from you is, where you knew the request was all out of proportion to the need, what action, if any, would you take on the request that you knew was out of proportion?
A I don't quite understand that question. I don't quite get it. I am sorry.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q If a requisition was for more tires than were needed, did you do anything about it?
A Your Honor, I passed on those requests for tires in their original form, because they were written on special forms, and I say it was not up to me if they were assigned those tires, or not. The Operational Office was the office in charge of me.
Q Did you ever decide whether there were too many tires in a requisition. Whether they asked for too many?
Q Did you decide that?
A You mean if there were too many tires. No, never, Your Honor, because not enough cold be requested. The way it worked out in Germany, we had to renew the tires, or rather re-vulcanize them. When a tire is used up in the States, then they threw it away.
Q No.
AAfter having driven it forty-five thousand kilometers, you just throw it away.
Q. No.
A. After having driven it forty-five thousand kilometers, you just throw it away.
Q Oh, no.
A Well, may e they are saving there too. That lack of tires was the reason why we told them again and again "Let's have your tires," as we would re-vulcunize all the tires. Now a request, that would be out of proportion would be useless, because it would not be approved. The situation was much too bad for that.
Q Then your answer is, you never decided whether or not there were too many tires asked for?
A No.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q As a motor expert, didn't you check all the requests for the items which you supplied to see if they were in line with the normal needs of the Amtsgruppen?
A I told you before that applied to Amtsgruppen C and B. It did not apply to Amtsgruppen D. The Operational Main Office had an expert of its own, and he was the man who checked up on these things, and, as he was a representative of the Operational Main Office, I really didn't see any reason to criticize his actions because he knew the situation as well as I did.
Q Well, your testimony this morning is slightly at variance with the affidavit which you signed and which is Document 2612, Prosecution Exhibit 10, and contained in Prosecution Document Book 1 on page 48. On Page 50 you make the following statement:
"When I came to the WVHA, Gruppenfuehrer Loerner commissioned me to bring all motor vehicles, weapons, and railroad transports under this office, so that in the future everyone who had anything to do with them or with the use of fuel, oil, tires, etc., was to report to me or my office."
Now this morning you state that Amtsgruppe D had their own technical expert who was competent to requisition these. Which statement is correct?
A It is not quite that way, that the first statement is wrong. The first statement is correct. The first statement refers to Amtsgruppen A, B, and C. When I joined the WVHA, and I told that in my examination also--I first of all fixed up Amtsgruppe C. Amtsgruppe D had already received their technical lead from the Death Head Units, and it did not renounce that technical leadership.
Q As a motor expert, could not you have determined from the papers that channeled through your office what the normal needs of each Amtsgruppe were?
A Well, yes, in a general sense.
Q Now, it would be impossible for you to determine these normal Court No. II, Case No. 4.needs unless you knew generally what type of work each Amtsgruppe was engaged in, wouldn't it?