Q. And who was the concentration cap commander?
A. As far as I can recall, I did not speak to the commander on the occasion of my first nor of my second visit. As far as I can recall, at the time I tried to see him on my arrival, but he was not there. I was able to talk only with his adjutant. I believe I know his name, however. I think his name was Suhren, as far as I know. However, I do not know him personally.
Q. It was the general custom, was it not, on your visits to these camps, to talk, to confer, with the concentration camp commanders? You looked them up and had a conference with them on the conditions in the dental stations and squared away any problems that you had with them; isn't that true?
A. No, Mr.Prosecutor. This matter had nothing to do with the camp commander. It was the custom that whenever we came into such a camp, we would be welcomed by the chief of the whole matter and inform him of the fact that we had arrived. After all, he should know who was staying within his agency. However, I never had any discussions and conferences with the camp commanders. He had the dentist for that. If he wanted to look into all these things, that would be impossible. I was not able to see the camp commanders in any case or talk to him because he was absent.
Q. In other words, then, if you had any problems concerning your dental stations located in the concentration camp, you would take it wap with the dentist in charge and you would hot bother the concentration camp commander with it? That is what you just got finished saying, isn't it?
A. In general, I would have discussed those matters only with the camp dentist.
Q. Then the answer to the question is Yes. How, will you tell me about your visit to Dora, the labor camp?
A. I can not tell you any more just when this inspection took place.
I think in the speing of 1944, and I assume that it must have been in March or April. Late in the evening I left Buchenwald, accompanied by an officer who wanted to go to the construction management at Dora. This officer took me along in his car, he just happened to have visited Buchenwald that time. We arrived at Dora very late at night.
I visited Dora at that time in order, to assist the dentist who was there to procure additional space for his dental station within the protective custody camp where the inmates were to be treated. He was to be given more space than the camp medical officer was willing forgive him. I have already stated that in my direct examination. There was only a small room intended there for this purpose within the new barracks, and I finally succeeded in obtaining more rooms for him.
Q. In other words, prior to the time of your visit to this notorious labor camp, the inmates were not properly being cared for? They did not have sufficient facilities at Dora to take care of these people, and through your visit there and your talk with Dr. Kahr, you were able to obtain larger facilities for you dental station?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, that is not quite correct. When I was there, in the beginning, the camp was still smaller. I do not know how many persons were accommodated there, but later on the camp was enlarged, and we were discussing a new hospital barrack there. As far as I know, the additional medical barracks were to be built. However, the barrack where the dental station was to be located had already been constructed, and at that time I looked at this barrack which had not yet been supplied with the necessary equipment.
Q. How long did you say you spent there? Did you spend the evening at Dora labor camp?
A. No, I arrived there late at night, and I already left at noon of the following day.
The camp commander there even gave me a car at my disposal so that I could visit my family, which was staying about 40 kilometers away in the Harz Mountains.
Q. And I suppose too at this camp you had no knowledge of the conditions there? You did not know that inmates were being were worked to death, improperly fed, improperly clothed, improperly taken care of? You did not know of such conditions existed at that camp? Just Yes or No.
A. I did not know that. After all, my visit took place at a time-------
Q. Now, will you tell us about your visits to Auschwitz, the Auschwitz concentration camp? You did visit this notorious concentration camp, did you not?
A. I believe I visited Auschwitz on two occasions.
Q. And once again, the purpose of the visit was to inspect the dental station there, or the dental stations there.
A. Yes. I went there exclusively for the purpose of inspecting the dental stations.
Q. This morning Judge Musmanno inquired as to the number of individuals interned at the various camps at Auschwitz. Don't you know of your own knowledge approximately how many inmates were stationed there? Don't you have an idea from the number of inmates that were treated at your dental station?
A. No, I can't tell you that. I have never received any strength reports, but whenever for some reason or other, in connection with dental care, I wanted to know the strength of a camp I had to go to Lolling and I had to ask him about it. Of course, I can not recall these figures because I always needed them only for a certain purpose.
Q. But you did state, didn't you, that you received comprehensive reports on the numbers of inmates treated in concentra tion camps, and you should be able to judge from the reports that you received that there were several hundred thousand inmates at Auschwitz.
Couldn't you conclude that?
A. The number of the patients treated appeared in the reports regarding the treatment effected.No conclusions could be drawn there from as to how many inmates there were. In no way was any percentage indicated. And no figures as to the strength could be taken therefrom.
Q. (By Mr.Higgins) Now, on your visit to Auschwitz, at least on one occasion Lolling accompanied you, did he not?
A. Yes. I just recall something and I want to correct myself. The second visit took place when the SS hospital was opened officially and I took this opportunity to also inspect the dental stations at this time.
Q. You inspected then the SS hospital at Auschwitz which was being established, and you also inspected the dental station then. Did you accompany Lolling on his inspection of the crematorium in Auschwitz at that time?
A. No, Mr. prosecutor, I was not there. I don't know whether Lolling visited the crematorium. During my first visit at Auschwitz and also during my second visit on both occasions. I have been in Cracow, that is to say the camp of Plaszow, and I was not together with Lolling on his visit to the crematorium at Auschwitz.
Q. Then the answer to my question is that you don't know or you did not accompany Lolling on his visit to the crematorium at Auschwitz?
A. That crematoria existed I knew. Crematoria also existed in the other camps. I knew of that.
Q. Did you also know that hundreds of thousands of inmates were being exterminated there and that the crematorium came in very handily?
A. No, Mr. Prosecutor, I did not know that.
Q. When did you hear about or learn about or know about the extermination program which was being carried out? When did you come into possession of that information?
A. In my previous examination I stated that in the summer, or from the summer of 1944 on I heard rumors about this program. I can't say anything more precisely.
In the meantime I have thought over the matter in order to recall some more details. However, I cannot recall just how and where and under what circumstances I heard those rumors. It may even be possible that I heard them over the foreign radio. However, today I cannot recall any details.
Q. You also heard, did you not, of the mortality charts that were kept by Lolling in relation to deaths at concentration camps? You knew that such reports were submitted to Lolling, did you not?
A. That Lolling kept lists about the mortality rate, and that he made charts about the mortality rate, I knew that, in so far that on one occasion I entered his office when he was out of the room and only his chief clerk was there at the moment. On that occasion I saw this graphic chart which was lying on his desk. However, I only looked at it from some distance. When I entered the room these big sheets of paper, I think there were two of them, were taken away by the clerk, and they were put into the safe. To my question what this chart was, the clerk told me that this was a graphic chart of the mortality rate in the individual concentration camps. However, I was unable to look at it myself. I was unable to see just what the mortality rate actually was. That was not the only time that this happened. Other documents, whenever I entered the room, would be removed from the desk of Lolling by the clerk. This actually attracted my curiosity a few times, and I assumed that this was done because I was not to obtain any knowledge of all these things.
Q. Isn't it a fact, Witness, that you contributed to the reports which were drawn up by Lolling, the medical reports? In other words, didn't you collaborate with him in the compilation of medical reports in concentration camps, and wasn't this chart that you saw part of such reports?
A. Whether this was part of the reports, I am unable to tell you. As I have heard here, the chief of the main office would receive a monthly report about that. However, I never collaborated with Lolling in this matter, and Lolling demanded of me only to give the numbers of patients treated in the concentration camps and submit it to him on a piece of paper, and then he included my report into his report, and I never received these reports after they had been completely compiled.
Q. I would just like to ask one more question concerning your visit to Auschwitz. In matters concerning it you stated that you had heard rumors of this extermination program that was being carried out, and you stated also that you were aware of this mortality chart kept by Lolling, and you stated also that it was guarded with great secrecy. Didn't you put two and two together, and when you went to Auschwitz weren't you interested in finding out for yourself whether or not in fact an extermination program was being carried out? Weren't you interested enough to do that to satisfy your own conscience?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know just when I heard rumors about it for the first time. At the time I didn't know anything about it. According to the knowledge which I have today I can say I don't know where I read that this extermination action was under way. In any case I only know that today, I didn't know of it in the fall of '44, or in the summer or fall of 1944. At that time I heard that this program had been discontinued, and I visited Auschwitz later on. However, I didn't find out anything about these things when I visited Auschwitz. These matters were not discussed at all in any form.
Q. However, you did hear rumors of these things?
A. Where and when I heard these rumors I don't know. I certainly did not hear them in Auschwitz. I may have heard them in Berlin or perhaps at Berlin-Lichterfelde. That is my home town.
Q. Now, Witness, I would like to ask you several questions concerning the set-up in the outside labor camps. Can you tell me whether or not prisoner inmates were employed as dentists in these outside camps?
A. In the dental stations of the outside camps or the larbor camps, of which there was a large number, inmate dentists were actually employed.
Q. Labor subordinated to the SS dentists in the concentrartion camps. In other words, their reports were submitted to these SS members who were dentists in concentration camps, that is so, is it not?
A. The work which was carried out in these dental stations was included in a report about the work done, just as was done in any SS dental station. This report of work was submitted to the dentists of the main camp.
Q. On your visits to camps, did you speak to these prisoner dentists at all; did you confer with them; did you know any of them?
A. I did not know any of them by person. However, whenever I was there they would express their desires to me, and they would inform me of everything of interest.
Q. What sort of individuals would they be? Would you class them among the criminal type or the political type prisoner? Why were they in concentration camps, do you have any idea?
A. No. I didn't discuss that at all with them, and such problems were not discussed at all. We only discussed purely professional matters with each other.
Q. You weren't interested enough to talk to them about their personal affairs, as, for instance, you were in the case of the barber who showed you his silver cigarette holder and his American cigarettes.
You asked him how things were concerning conditions in camps, but you were not enough interested to ask these dentist prisoners about their personal affairs, is that correct?
A. Well, I had nothing to do with the camp medical officers, and with the dentists who were working there I did not have any personal contact, and this was not part of my field of tasks. My visits generally were so short that I was unable to have any long discussions with these people about their personal matters. Furthermore, I could not have alleviated their personal condition. Dentists who were working in such outside camps were better accommodated than the other inmates because in general they would receive an extra room near the dental stations. Already here they had a certain privilege because they did not have to sleep together in one barracks with hundreds or even more inmates. I did not know how many there were. Through that activity they also had the advantage, and I can say that from my own time of internment of having privileges with regard to food etc. However, I could not alleviate the situation in any other way.
Q. Did you ever try to better their conditions? This can be answered with a yes or no.
A. Yes, with regard to their accommodations and food, yes.
Q. Did you ever attempt to better the conditions of the less fortunate inmates, those who were not dentists and were not specially privileged, and this can be answered yes or no too, either you did or you didn't.
A. I was unable to do that. As a dentist, it was impossible for me to do something for the concentration camp inmates in general.
Q. Witness, I would like to inquire briefly into your official relations with your immediate superior in Ant D-3, Standartenfuehrer Lolling. Now, You have stated previously that you were his personal advisor. Can you tell me as briefly as possible just what matters you advised him on? I don't care for long answers; just briefly what sort of advice did you give him? Under what circumstances?
A. I can say it with one word: I consulted him in everything that concerned dental matters--and exclusively dental matters.
Q. Then if Lolling was in need of advice on this matter he would call you, and you would come into his office, and you would have a conference with him?
A. That was not always done. I have already stated that Lolling made his own decisions in many dental matters, and he would confront me with accomplished facts. He always did that in the personnel matters of dentists.
Q. Did you ever speak to Lolling about transfers and appointments of dentists? That is, were you ever concerned in discussions with him on personnel matters of your dentists located in concentration camps and outside labor camps?
A. Yes; certainly. He often made his own decisions with regard to the assignment and transfer of dentists, and he would inform me afterwards. However, it also happened here that whenever he wanted to transfer dentists from one camp to another he would seek my advice beforehand.
Q. I see. He would call you in and ask your advice on the value of transferring dentists within the concentration camps? In other words he would consult you before he made transfers of dentists -
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Mr. Higgins, when he gives you an answer I don't see why you must repeat it and say, "In other words, it is the same thing.."
I would go to the next question.
MR. HIGGINS: Your Honor, in this particular instance I just wanted it a little more clearly. I wanted to ascertain and definitely establish that the witness actually did cause the transfers of dentists within the concentration camps and in the labor camps.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: That is the impression we get from his answer.
MR. HIGGINS: Then I am well satisfied, Your Honor.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Witness, who selected the inmate dentists in the various camps and work camps? Who selected those men to do this work?
A. Your Honor, do you mean who selected the inmate dentists so they could be employed in the dental station? That was done by the camp dentist.
Q. Well, did the camp dentist consult with you about it?
A. Not the camp physician--the camp dentist did that on his own initiative together with the camp physician.
Q. Well, I said the camp dentist.
A. In collaboration with the camp medical officer.
Q. Did the camp dentist consult with you about the selection of these camp doctors from the inmates?
A. He did not discuss it with me.
Q. Well, did he give you a list of the ones that he had selected?
A. Lolling received. I believe, a list every month of the entire, medical personnel which was in every camp and which was not used. That is to say, as physician dentists, nurses, and so on. He constantly received those lists. Whenever a new dental station was established, and whenever somebody was needed, then these lists were referred to; personnel was produced in this way?
Q. Well, the translation came in that Lolling received a report of those that were not used. I don't care anything about the ones that were not used. I want to know about the ones that were used. Did you know who they were, the inmate dentists who were assigned in the camps and the work camps?
A. During the first time of my activity we were informed of this, --I believe from the summer of 1944 on, but I can't give you the exact time anymore, from that time on this was not done anymore because we had too many dental stations, and Lolling had prohibited that I should receive more details about the dentists who were actually working there.
Q. Well, now, when you made an inspection of, say, Auschwitz, and you went to the dental station, why didn't you call in those inmate doctors, dentists, and discuss with them what was going on in the camp in the way of dental care and dental treatment and the condition of the inmates with regard to that kind of work?
A. Your Honor, there was no possibility to call together all the dentists which originally came from Auschwitz and who were working in the camps there. After all, the inmates were not allowed to leave their outside camps. As I have already described this morning, the camps were up to about seventy or eighty kilometers away from Auschwitz on some occasions. I, therefore, was only able, together with the dentist from the main camp, to visit one or the other of the dental stations in order to take a personal look at it and to gain an impression which was necessary for me from the factual point of view.
Q. Well, you had charge of the dental care of the inmates -- that is, the supervision. Why didn't you find put what was going on as a part of your work?
A. Yes, Your Honor, I did care for what went on in dental matters. I looked at the dental stations. I talked to some of the patients who were treated there. I looked at the card index files, and I looked at the material, at the instruments and so on to see whether there were sufficient instruments on hand and whether they were in good condition. I did everything which was included in my field of tasks.
Q. Couldn't you have found out much more from the ones who were actually doing the work than from any other source?
A. Your Honor, I did not have an official rank in order to have any influence. After all, my grade alone did not play any part in this. After all, I was not the chief of an office or the chief of a Main Office, or something of that sort, so that I could have had any such authority. The dentist usually not holding all university degrees, was not very much respected by physicians, and others, in other branches of equal rank. Therefore, he could only carry out his work well and hope that by this work which he is doing with his own hands he is being recognized to some extent.
Q. I don't care whether you are a corporal or a general--you had the authority and you had the authority to find out what was going on under your supervision, and you went to the camps for the purpose of making inspections. What we want to know is: why didn't you talk to the dentists in the camps who were doing the work so that you could find out something accurately?
A. Your Honor, I did discuss dental matters with the dentists who carried out the work. The inmates themselves usually were not in the camp when I made these visits because they were outside of the camp for work with the detachments. Therefore-
Q. Just a minute. I am not talking about the inmates; I am talking about the camp dentists who were inmates themselves and were in the camp doing this work. If you had called them in to each place you would go to and let them give you a report as to what they were doing, what the condition of the camp inmates were, how their work was progressing, you would have found out something. Now, why didn't you do that?
A. Well, they did report to me about their factual activity-
Q. Oh, yes, in writing -- a monthly report. But I am talking about seeing them.
A. Yes; I also talked to them in person, and they would report to me about their work and their activities.
However, they did not report to me about other inmates or what the other inmates were doing, or how they were employed. We didn't discuss that at all. There was no reason for us to discuss that.
Q. Don't you know that if you had talked to those inmates who were dentists -- and the truth is, as the Government and the Prosecution has shown here that people were starving to death by the hundreds and the thousands -- that it was shown up in their work and in their teeth?
A. Your Honor, I don't believe that the people who were in these labor camps were starved because they would not have been able to carry out their work.
The people who came for dental treatment in the labor camps certainly must have been in a somewhat decent shape as far as their physical shape was concerned. No dentist ever told me that the inmates were starving in the camp, where he was treating inmates. No dentist ever told me that the inmates were starving.
Q. No one ever told you that?
A. No, Your Honor, nobody ever told me that.
Q. All the visits you made to the camps and all the inspections you made ...you had no reason to believe that from any source?
A. Your Honor, I was only there for one year, and I took very few trips and during one trip I visited two or three different camps.
After all, I could only inspect the dental stations themselves. I did not have any authority to inspect any other installation there.
Q. That is all.
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q. Witness, I am interested in determining what happened during these inspection trips to the dental stations, and I would like you to enlighten me on this subject. For instance, if you went to a dental station, and you found conditions unsatisfactory there; you found the SS dentist was not properly performing the tasks assigned to him;
or in the case that you found the equipment was not being properly cared for; or in case you found anything wrong--what would you do in that case? What would happen?
A. If something of that kind would have happened, then I would have had to report this matter to Lolling; and the camp dentist, the member of the SS, certainly would have been punished.
Q. You wouldn't take it upon yourself to tell him, to correct him, to let him know that he should improve conditions? Did you ever give such advice or make such suggestions on-the-spot, previous to your returning to your office in Oranienburg?
A. I did not have any authority to give disciplinary punishment. I was unable to punish any member of the SS.
Q. I am not talking about punishing the member; I am simply saying that perhaps you would have told him, "Now, you had better get on the job" or that, "You had better shine up the equipment", or "take care of the equipment". Didn't you ever order him to improve his ways, to correct the deficiencies?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
It would seem to me that this would be more the direct way to do it, simply tell him how you have to change this situation.
A If it would have been necessary and if I would have determined that the SS dentist in that camp had not really carried out his duty and if I had seen that on the occasion of an inspection then certainly I would have told him that during my visit and I would have told him that if he was not going to try any harder then I would have to submit a report to my superior and that he would be dismissed or punished.
Q On your inspections did you ever find the opportunity to take such action?
A I cannot recall ever having taken such a step.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q Do I understand, witness, that in all this time that you were in charge of the dental stations in all the concentration camps that not once did you find a situation which warranted the dismissal of a dentist?
A Your Honor, I do not recall that when I visited a camp that I had to tell an SS dentist that I was not satisfied with his work. I cannot recall any such instances.
Q That's all. Very well.
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q During the direct examination quite a large amount of time was spent concerning reports which passed through your office in D-III. I would like to enumerate them here very briefly and I would like you to tell me if I am correct in any of the statements which I make concerning reports of various nature which were submitted through you. You received and checked work and personnel reports from dentists in all WVHA operated concentration camps and after receipt of these reports you forwarded them to the medical office, did you not? I am talking about the personnel and work reports.
A Yes, that was the so-called personnel and efficiency report which had to be submitted every month.
Q Then there was another report which you handled and that concerned the keeping of the so-called gold books by the camp dentists.
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, we did not submit an extra report about that, but in this personnel and efficiency report the amount of gold on hand in that particular SS dental station from a certain day had to be submitted. This was entered in the just mentioned personnel and efficiency report.
Q I understood the testimony concerning this to be that you carried out audits of such books, that this gold was a very precious item and that very close reports were kept on it and that you audited the books so to speak, kept by these dentists in the concentration camps? That is not so?
A No. In every dental station of the SS, no matter if this was a dental station of units in the field, or units at home, or in concentration camps, every dental station had to keep a gold book. In this gold book the date of the arrival of the gold and the exact amounts were listed. They were listed according to different types of gold and also the name was included of the person for whom the gold had arrived. That is to say, the day when gold arrived from Office 14 in the Operational Main Office. The gold was again booked out from the gold book on the day the man in charge of dental station passed the gold on to the technicians, and that is to say, practically within the same dental station. Still the technician had to certify that he had received the gold. After the work was completed the remainder of the gold again had to be entered in the book and the technician again had to certify that he had turned over that amount of gold. Of course, in a certain period of time a certain amount of gold accumulated and from time to time this gold was returned to the medical office. At certain intervals these gold books were audited. This happened because in the gold book a certain statement was made. The dentist who kept this gold book would have to weigh the amounts of geld on hand in the presence of a witness, he Court No. II, Case No. 4.had to register it, and then together with this certificate, the gold book was submitted to office 14 for auditing.
The gold books of the camp dental stations went through official channels to office 14 through D-III.
Q When they were passing through D-III to Office 14 of the FHA, they passed through you and you checked them?
A No. At the time I passed on the books exactly like they arrived. That is to say, my clerk unpacked them and when two or three arrived together the same day, he wrapped them together and passed them on to another office. We didn't look at that at that time.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q The order of Dr. Peters appointing you to Amtsgruppe DIII was effective on 3 September 1943?
A Your Honor, I see that the date is 6 September 1943, Berlin W 15. In the text itself the date of 3 September has been mentioned.
Q That's right. What happened in August of 1944? Were your duties changed?
A In the summer of 1944 as a result of the evacuation of the medical office, the transfer of Office 14, that is to say the dental service of the medical office first to Buchenwald and then to Karlsbad, I requested the chief of the dental service to have the request for material of the dental stations worked on independently because too much time was lost as a result of the evacuation.
Q I don't want your reasons. I just want to know what happened, were you transferred or were your duties changed in the summer of 1944?
A It was not changed fundamentally, it was changed only insofar as that now I dealt with requests for material for dental stations and I passed them on directly to agencies of the Reich Physician SS and the Reich Medical Quartermaster. Therefore Office 14 did not handle these any longer.
Q Did you continue to inspect dental stations in concentration Court No. II, Case No. 4.camps until the spring of 1945 then?
A In the course of the winter, late in 1944 and early in 1945, as far as I recall I did not make any additional trips.
Q But your duties remained the same but you were no longer a collaborator with Dr. Lolling.
A No, your Honor, in dental matters I continued to be collaborator of Dr. Lolling. However, I perhaps received a somewhat more independent field of tasks because also now I took care of duties of office 14 in the Operational Main Office of the FHA.
Q Well, that was after you were transferred to Karlsbad or after the office was transferred to Karlsbad, but you continued to be chief dentist under Office 14 after the summer of 1944?
A Well, nothing changed in that respect.
Q I see.
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q The fourth report I would like to mention here is the report which came to you from the dentists in concentration camps and labor camps concerning requisitions for materials. You received all those requisitions, did you not?
A I did not receive any requisitions. I don't know anything about it.
Q Haven't you recently said on direct examination that requisitions were submitted to you from the dental stations in the concentration camps and that up to a time you checked them and forwarded them to Office 14 of the FHA?
A Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, these are the requisitions for material which the dentists in the camps submitted monthly and the material was furnished by the Central Medical Office Berlin and they were intended for the inmate dental stations and SS dental stations within the camp so that this equipment could be used in the camps.
Q Is it true that all correspondence between Office 14 of the FHA and the concentration camp dentists passed through you.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Yes. The official channel was through office DIII. However, I don't know if I saw all the correspondence. However, I have to assume that. After all Lolling passed on the mail to me and the entire mail was addressed to Lolling.
THE PRESIDENT: We will stop, Mr. Higgins. The Tribunal will recess until tomorrow morning to sit en bank with the other Tribunals. We will assume trial in this room tomorrow afternoon at a quarter of two.