I can tell you from my time when I was interned in Neuengamme that the dental station which existed there and where I worked during my internment time, was also actually on the edge of the camp, right near the entrance; while the living barracks were also at quite some distance on the left-hand side of the parade grounds. One didn't have to actually see them; one couldn't see them.
Q Then, you state that, like Sachsenhausen, all other concentration camps that you visited had the dental stations nearly located on the left side of the gate as you entered, is that right?
A No; I don't say that all of them are like that. I gave you Sachsenhausen as an example.
Q And no concentration camps at all had the dental stations located right in the middle of the concentration camp?
A I only saw a very few of them, and I can't recall how the location was in all cases, at least not as far as those small camps, those outside camps are concerned.
Q Excuse me, we will give you an opportunity to tell us about the location of the dental stations in all those concentration camps you visited, in time. I would like to ask you now whether or not you had a pass which entitled you to enter concentration camps on dental inspections--that is, a general pass which permitted this. Your predecessor in Office, Reiter, had one. Can you tell me whether or not you had one too?
A Yes, I did have such a pass signed by Gluecks that I was entitled to enter the concentration camps for inspection of the dental stations, but that was not a general permission; it was more of a pass, an identification actually which had been written out just "in case." If I didn't have my travel orders and my visit had not been announced in advance, I couldn't just enter the camp.
I can recall having gone to the concentration camp of Sachsenhausen on two occasions when I was not allowed to enter the Komnandantur Court No, II, Case No. 4.area with that pass of Gluecks.
That is, that area where the SS administration was located. And, of course, not to mention the protective custody camp. In order to go to the barber shop, I was assigned an orderly; a soldier had to escort me.
Q But, as you stated in the preliminary, you did have a pass which entitled you to enter concentration camps for the purpose of inspections of dental stations located there. That is right, is it not?
A Only dental stations--yes.
Q In carrying out these inspections of dental stations you traveled frequently in the company of Burger, did you not?
A No; I didn't go on one single official trip with Burger. I always went alone, and I went with Lolling on one or two occasions.
Q What does Rammler mean when he states that you visited the concentration camps and went on official trips with Burger? You remember his stating that, don't you? Rammler was the First Sergeant in the headquarters' company in Amtsgruppe D. He stated that he issued passes to you and Burger.
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, Rammler could not issue the passes for the trips--only when the trip was over-
Q Excuse me-
A In order to enter all those things into the record he received those passes back.
Q What I meant was he facilitated your trip. You cleared with him prior to making trips?
A No, I didn't. No; Rammler didn't even know when I left. As far as the travel orders and the tickets were concerned for the train--they were written out by Lolling, and Rammler had nothing to do with that.
Q He had nothing whatsoever to do with it?
A With writing out the passes--no. Nothing at all.
Q And he had nothing whatsoever to do with matters where officers from your office were traveling? He had nothing to do with Court No. II, Case No. 4.travel orders or clearances?
Wasn't he the clerk? Wasn't that just his job?
A Well, if he had anything to do with that, if, for instance, one of our clerks wanted to go on an official trips from Office D-3, I really can't tell you. But, as far as the officers were concerned, that is Lolling or myself for instance, Rammler had nothing to do with it.
Q You visited the Mauthausen concentration camp, did you not?
A Yes, indeed. Immediately after my transfer to Office D-3, Lolling had something to do in Mauthausen and the first trip which I took was together with him to Mauthausen.
Q How about subsequent trips--you visited it subsequently, did you not?
A I never did visit Mauthausen again; it was the only time.
Q Didn't you visit this camp in January of 1944?
A Yes; Mauthausen...let's see--January, 1944. I can't tell you the exact date.
Q And will you tell me again with whom this trip was made?
A Together with Lolling.
Q And while there you spoke with the dentists in that camp, did you not?
A Yes, indeed.
Q What was the name of that dentist? Was it Grick?
A No; he had two names. That dentist had two names, and I just can't remember it. Let's see-
Q It is not that important.
A I just can't think of it at the moment.
Q How were conditions in Mauthausen when you visited it in January, 1944?
A.- I can't recall the conditions there very well. All I know is that we arrived towards the evening, that is to say, late in the afternoon and that shortly after our arrival I met the dentists there and then we stayed in the dentists' station within the area of the Kommandantur.
Q.- You say you spent the evening there?
A.- We spent the evening in the officers' mess and ate there and sat there together for a little while.
Q.- What did you talk about during your evening stay at Mauthausen?
A.- I really couldn't give you any details today. All I can recall is that Lolling together with the commandant of the camp, together with other people, went into a corner of the room and started playing cards. That's all I can remember.
Q.- You didn't talk about conditions of inmates or dental gold or experiments of any sort?
A.- Nothing was discussed about that in my presence. At the dental station where we spent a few hours together in the evening I spoke with the dental officers about all sorts of dental matters, supplies, installations, etc. We spoke about those things but only in the dental station.
Q.- What did your dentists have to say about the extraction of gold from the teeth of deceased inmates?
A.- I can't recall that we ever talked about anything like that at the time. I really can't tell you.
Q.- You visited the Buchenwald Concentration Camp also, didn't you, on one of your tours of inspection?
A.- Yes, I was in Buchenwald too on one occasion.
Q.- When was this trip taken?
A.- I can't tell you that for sure. I was there probably twice because I remember that during my first trip I had the opportunity to go to the camp Nordhausen/Dora the same evening and the second time when I was in Buchenwald it was March 1945, I had the opportunity to go to Ohrdruf.
Q.- That was in the spring of 1945, wasn't it, that second trip?
A.- Yes, it must have been in the spring because I recall that we had driven from Buchenwald to Nordhaussen in our car and that the roads up in the higher places still had ice on them.
Q.- Who was the commandant of that camp at that time, at the time of your second trip?
A.- What camp do you mean?
Q.- Buchenwald Concentration Camp.
A.- Buchenwald, as far as I can recall it was Pister.
Q.- And on the inspection of your dental stations you visited the Protective Custody Camp, did you not?
A.- No, I didn't visit the Protective Custody Camp, Together with Dr. Abraham I went to the Dental Stations by the shortest route, and went through the dental stations there.
Q.- In Buchenwald ?
A.- Yes, in Buchenwald.
Q.- At that time you knew that people were dying there by the thousands, frightful numbers?
A.- No, I didn't know that at the time.
Q.- You didn't know that people were being atrociously treated, subject to malnutrition and extermination programs?
A.- I told you before, Mr. Prosecutor, that I didn't notice any such thing during my visits, because my visits happened during the day and during the day time all the inmates had left the camp for work so the camp was actually empty and on those short visits which actually didn't last over 15 to 20 minutes in the Dental Stations I certainly couldn't notice any such thing.
Q.- I would not call these visits to the concentration camps short, when you had stated previously that you had spent the evenings in the concentration camps after you completed the inspection of the Dental Stations.
I could not believe you would be so poorly informed when you tell us that you conferred with the concentration camp commandants, that you conferred with the dentists in the concentration camps, and that row spoke to various inmates in concentration camps. Added to this fact that you made visits of inspection seeking information I find it difficult to believe that you were unable to tell the conditions in the camp. Isn't it a fact, witness, that conditions of the inmates in the concentration camp are indicated by the condition of the teeth? A person in poor health for a extended time has poor teethy, does he not. You know that as a dentist. If nothing more than that you should have known that?
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, I never did work at a camp myself. I didn't take a look at the teeth of the inmates. I didn't beat inmates. That's why I couldn't say that and I really never did have any long conferences with the concentration camp commandant not did I stay with them a long time. And as you just stated - when I was in the concentration camp for a long time I was not in the Protective Custody Camp but in the Kommandantur. That's in the administrative area. I never had any conversations with the commandants, they had no time for that.
Q.- You told us, witness, on direct examination today that you were very well informed on the treatment of inmates in the Dental Stations. You stated categorically that you knew that inmates were very well treated in your stations, and you made visits as you say here. Certainly you must have known of conditions of the people that were treated in your dental stations, isn't that so?
A.- No, that isn't so. During my visits I could see that they had special files for every inmate and it stated what had been done, fillings, extractions, etc. However, it didn't state in that record if ho was undernourished, if suffering from any other disease. I couldn't see that from those records and as I stated before I didn't take care of the inmates personally because I never worked in the camp.
Q.- It is nevertheless incredible to believe that as a result of your visit in the spring of 1945 to Buchenwald that you did not know of the conditions there really, although you entered into the camp. The Prosecution has presented a document........
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, don't argue the whole case to the witness, save something for the Tribunal. I suggest that you resort to questions rather than trying to persuade the witness that you are right.
MR. HIGGINS: Very well, your Honor.
Q.- Would you tell me then, witness, how many times you visited the Ohrdruf Labor Camp III?
A.- I was in Ohrdurg on one occasion between 12-15 March 1945. I can't tell you the exact date.
Q.- The Prosecution has introduced the affidavit of Greunuss who was the camp physician at Ohrdrug. He stated that upon your orders the inmates of concentration camps were inhumanely treated, that is that the only treatment authorized was extraction without anesthesia. That statement is correct, is it not? Did you not issue that order?
A.- No, I didn't, Mr. Prosecutor. I already stated during my direct examination about all those charges made by Dr. Greumuss and I can't tell you anything more than in direct examination.
Q.- Can you tell me this, then, why do you believe he would delibarately make such a statement if it were not true?
A.- I just can't understand it. I told you before that I tried to find an explanation. I don't know Greunuss at all except for that short period of time I was there. The only explanation I find about this is that I was a Witness of heated conversations between his direct superior that is, the camp physician of Buchenwald and himself. I was not the only witness of those heated conversations. Dr. Abrahams was also present and Scholz too, I believe. That's the only way I can understand that he said such a thing. These statements do not correspond to the truth. I really can tell you that to be the best of my conscience.
Q.- And Dr. Scholz and Dr. Abraham stated that Greunus is wrong, that you did not make that statement?
A.- I didn't have any authority to issue such orders.
Q.- I just asked you whether or not that was stated by Scholz and Abraham They stated that you did not make that statement to Greunuss, did they not?
A.- Yes. Scholz and Abraham can confirm the fact that I never made such a statement nor did I ever issue such an order because they were around me all the time. Apart from that if I had issued such an order the dentist at Ohrdruf would have known about it, at the same time his direct superior Dr. Abraham of Buchenwald. It really can't be seen why such an order was issued for Ohrdruf only and then I just can't see why such an order would have been issued as late as between 12-15 of March 1945, when two weeks later the American Troops took over the camp.
Q.- Dr. Abraham made the statement that the dental staff at Buchenwald was inadequate to care for the 20 to 30,000 inmates who were stationed there. Do you agree with this statement by Dr. Abraham?
A.- Dr. Abraham said that these three places for treatment in the station for inmates at Buchenwald were sufficiently large enough to take care of all the inmates who were there during the time when the camp was occupied normally. Only in 1945 when all the other camps were evacuated due to the approach of the Allied Troops and when everything was concentrated in central Germany,in Thuringia, and mostly in Buchenwald. At that time Buchenwald had the double number of inmates it had at the beginning. Only at that particular moment the dental care with the three dental stations and the three dentists was no longer insufficent. As I said that was in 1945, I believe in February, when all agencies were all upside down - and nobody did know what was going to happen.
Q.- Then you state that the only time that such a condition existed that inmate were not properly cared for as a result of inadequate faci lities, was during the evacuation of concentration camps or the approach of the Allies, otherwise they were well staffed and well equipped.
Yes or no, that question I believe, can be answered with yes or no.
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, you can't just answer that with yes or no, I already stated during my direct examination that towards the end of 1944 certain difficulties arose due to the fact that a large number of outside camps were established with various enterprises. The dental care of all inmates of those branch camps was still pretty good though difficult. The trouble started when the camps evacuated and others overcrowded during the year of 1945.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess, Mr. Higgins.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
HERMANN POOK---Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION----Continued.
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q. At the recess, witness, we were involved in a short tour of the concentration camps which you visited on tours of inspection. Now, my next question is this: Would you please tell me about your visits to the Ravensbruck concentration camp?
A. I have not quite understood your question, Mr. Prosecutor. I don't know what to say.
I visited Ravensbruck on one occasion. That must have been in the fall of 1943, and I visited this camp together with my predecessor. At the time we went from Oranienburg to Ravensbruck by car. The distance was not very great. Later,on, in the course of the year 1944 I visited Ravensbruck once more. If I recall correctly however, I did not enter the protective custody camp on my second visit, but I visited only the SS dental station within the headquarters area there. I can not give you the reasons any more for my visit at that time.
Q. You do not remember that your visit was for the purpose of conducting inspections of the dental clinics located there?
A. The first time in the fall of 1943, yes, when I visited the camp with my predecessor. At the time the dental station was to be transferred to another barracks so that the inmates of the men's camp, could be treated there, and on that occasion we inspected the new area and the new barracks where the new dental station was to be located.
Q. Who was the camp dentist there at that time? Do you remember the name of the dentist who was there?
A. Yes. As far as I know, the dentist Hellinger was already there at the time.
Q. And who was the concentration cap commander?
A. As far as I can recall, I did not speak to the commander on the occasion of my first nor of my second visit. As far as I can recall, at the time I tried to see him on my arrival, but he was not there. I was able to talk only with his adjutant. I believe I know his name, however. I think his name was Suhren, as far as I know. However, I do not know him personally.
Q. It was the general custom, was it not, on your visits to these camps, to talk, to confer, with the concentration camp commanders? You looked them up and had a conference with them on the conditions in the dental stations and squared away any problems that you had with them; isn't that true?
A. No, Mr.Prosecutor. This matter had nothing to do with the camp commander. It was the custom that whenever we came into such a camp, we would be welcomed by the chief of the whole matter and inform him of the fact that we had arrived. After all, he should know who was staying within his agency. However, I never had any discussions and conferences with the camp commanders. He had the dentist for that. If he wanted to look into all these things, that would be impossible. I was not able to see the camp commanders in any case or talk to him because he was absent.
Q. In other words, then, if you had any problems concerning your dental stations located in the concentration camp, you would take it wap with the dentist in charge and you would hot bother the concentration camp commander with it? That is what you just got finished saying, isn't it?
A. In general, I would have discussed those matters only with the camp dentist.
Q. Then the answer to the question is Yes. How, will you tell me about your visit to Dora, the labor camp?
A. I can not tell you any more just when this inspection took place.
I think in the speing of 1944, and I assume that it must have been in March or April. Late in the evening I left Buchenwald, accompanied by an officer who wanted to go to the construction management at Dora. This officer took me along in his car, he just happened to have visited Buchenwald that time. We arrived at Dora very late at night.
I visited Dora at that time in order, to assist the dentist who was there to procure additional space for his dental station within the protective custody camp where the inmates were to be treated. He was to be given more space than the camp medical officer was willing forgive him. I have already stated that in my direct examination. There was only a small room intended there for this purpose within the new barracks, and I finally succeeded in obtaining more rooms for him.
Q. In other words, prior to the time of your visit to this notorious labor camp, the inmates were not properly being cared for? They did not have sufficient facilities at Dora to take care of these people, and through your visit there and your talk with Dr. Kahr, you were able to obtain larger facilities for you dental station?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, that is not quite correct. When I was there, in the beginning, the camp was still smaller. I do not know how many persons were accommodated there, but later on the camp was enlarged, and we were discussing a new hospital barrack there. As far as I know, the additional medical barracks were to be built. However, the barrack where the dental station was to be located had already been constructed, and at that time I looked at this barrack which had not yet been supplied with the necessary equipment.
Q. How long did you say you spent there? Did you spend the evening at Dora labor camp?
A. No, I arrived there late at night, and I already left at noon of the following day.
The camp commander there even gave me a car at my disposal so that I could visit my family, which was staying about 40 kilometers away in the Harz Mountains.
Q. And I suppose too at this camp you had no knowledge of the conditions there? You did not know that inmates were being were worked to death, improperly fed, improperly clothed, improperly taken care of? You did not know of such conditions existed at that camp? Just Yes or No.
A. I did not know that. After all, my visit took place at a time-------
Q. Now, will you tell us about your visits to Auschwitz, the Auschwitz concentration camp? You did visit this notorious concentration camp, did you not?
A. I believe I visited Auschwitz on two occasions.
Q. And once again, the purpose of the visit was to inspect the dental station there, or the dental stations there.
A. Yes. I went there exclusively for the purpose of inspecting the dental stations.
Q. This morning Judge Musmanno inquired as to the number of individuals interned at the various camps at Auschwitz. Don't you know of your own knowledge approximately how many inmates were stationed there? Don't you have an idea from the number of inmates that were treated at your dental station?
A. No, I can't tell you that. I have never received any strength reports, but whenever for some reason or other, in connection with dental care, I wanted to know the strength of a camp I had to go to Lolling and I had to ask him about it. Of course, I can not recall these figures because I always needed them only for a certain purpose.
Q. But you did state, didn't you, that you received comprehensive reports on the numbers of inmates treated in concentra tion camps, and you should be able to judge from the reports that you received that there were several hundred thousand inmates at Auschwitz.
Couldn't you conclude that?
A. The number of the patients treated appeared in the reports regarding the treatment effected.No conclusions could be drawn there from as to how many inmates there were. In no way was any percentage indicated. And no figures as to the strength could be taken therefrom.
Q. (By Mr.Higgins) Now, on your visit to Auschwitz, at least on one occasion Lolling accompanied you, did he not?
A. Yes. I just recall something and I want to correct myself. The second visit took place when the SS hospital was opened officially and I took this opportunity to also inspect the dental stations at this time.
Q. You inspected then the SS hospital at Auschwitz which was being established, and you also inspected the dental station then. Did you accompany Lolling on his inspection of the crematorium in Auschwitz at that time?
A. No, Mr. prosecutor, I was not there. I don't know whether Lolling visited the crematorium. During my first visit at Auschwitz and also during my second visit on both occasions. I have been in Cracow, that is to say the camp of Plaszow, and I was not together with Lolling on his visit to the crematorium at Auschwitz.
Q. Then the answer to my question is that you don't know or you did not accompany Lolling on his visit to the crematorium at Auschwitz?
A. That crematoria existed I knew. Crematoria also existed in the other camps. I knew of that.
Q. Did you also know that hundreds of thousands of inmates were being exterminated there and that the crematorium came in very handily?
A. No, Mr. Prosecutor, I did not know that.
Q. When did you hear about or learn about or know about the extermination program which was being carried out? When did you come into possession of that information?
A. In my previous examination I stated that in the summer, or from the summer of 1944 on I heard rumors about this program. I can't say anything more precisely.
In the meantime I have thought over the matter in order to recall some more details. However, I cannot recall just how and where and under what circumstances I heard those rumors. It may even be possible that I heard them over the foreign radio. However, today I cannot recall any details.
Q. You also heard, did you not, of the mortality charts that were kept by Lolling in relation to deaths at concentration camps? You knew that such reports were submitted to Lolling, did you not?
A. That Lolling kept lists about the mortality rate, and that he made charts about the mortality rate, I knew that, in so far that on one occasion I entered his office when he was out of the room and only his chief clerk was there at the moment. On that occasion I saw this graphic chart which was lying on his desk. However, I only looked at it from some distance. When I entered the room these big sheets of paper, I think there were two of them, were taken away by the clerk, and they were put into the safe. To my question what this chart was, the clerk told me that this was a graphic chart of the mortality rate in the individual concentration camps. However, I was unable to look at it myself. I was unable to see just what the mortality rate actually was. That was not the only time that this happened. Other documents, whenever I entered the room, would be removed from the desk of Lolling by the clerk. This actually attracted my curiosity a few times, and I assumed that this was done because I was not to obtain any knowledge of all these things.
Q. Isn't it a fact, Witness, that you contributed to the reports which were drawn up by Lolling, the medical reports? In other words, didn't you collaborate with him in the compilation of medical reports in concentration camps, and wasn't this chart that you saw part of such reports?
A. Whether this was part of the reports, I am unable to tell you. As I have heard here, the chief of the main office would receive a monthly report about that. However, I never collaborated with Lolling in this matter, and Lolling demanded of me only to give the numbers of patients treated in the concentration camps and submit it to him on a piece of paper, and then he included my report into his report, and I never received these reports after they had been completely compiled.
Q. I would just like to ask one more question concerning your visit to Auschwitz. In matters concerning it you stated that you had heard rumors of this extermination program that was being carried out, and you stated also that you were aware of this mortality chart kept by Lolling, and you stated also that it was guarded with great secrecy. Didn't you put two and two together, and when you went to Auschwitz weren't you interested in finding out for yourself whether or not in fact an extermination program was being carried out? Weren't you interested enough to do that to satisfy your own conscience?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know just when I heard rumors about it for the first time. At the time I didn't know anything about it. According to the knowledge which I have today I can say I don't know where I read that this extermination action was under way. In any case I only know that today, I didn't know of it in the fall of '44, or in the summer or fall of 1944. At that time I heard that this program had been discontinued, and I visited Auschwitz later on. However, I didn't find out anything about these things when I visited Auschwitz. These matters were not discussed at all in any form.
Q. However, you did hear rumors of these things?
A. Where and when I heard these rumors I don't know. I certainly did not hear them in Auschwitz. I may have heard them in Berlin or perhaps at Berlin-Lichterfelde. That is my home town.
Q. Now, Witness, I would like to ask you several questions concerning the set-up in the outside labor camps. Can you tell me whether or not prisoner inmates were employed as dentists in these outside camps?
A. In the dental stations of the outside camps or the larbor camps, of which there was a large number, inmate dentists were actually employed.
Q. Labor subordinated to the SS dentists in the concentrartion camps. In other words, their reports were submitted to these SS members who were dentists in concentration camps, that is so, is it not?
A. The work which was carried out in these dental stations was included in a report about the work done, just as was done in any SS dental station. This report of work was submitted to the dentists of the main camp.
Q. On your visits to camps, did you speak to these prisoner dentists at all; did you confer with them; did you know any of them?
A. I did not know any of them by person. However, whenever I was there they would express their desires to me, and they would inform me of everything of interest.
Q. What sort of individuals would they be? Would you class them among the criminal type or the political type prisoner? Why were they in concentration camps, do you have any idea?
A. No. I didn't discuss that at all with them, and such problems were not discussed at all. We only discussed purely professional matters with each other.
Q. You weren't interested enough to talk to them about their personal affairs, as, for instance, you were in the case of the barber who showed you his silver cigarette holder and his American cigarettes.
You asked him how things were concerning conditions in camps, but you were not enough interested to ask these dentist prisoners about their personal affairs, is that correct?
A. Well, I had nothing to do with the camp medical officers, and with the dentists who were working there I did not have any personal contact, and this was not part of my field of tasks. My visits generally were so short that I was unable to have any long discussions with these people about their personal matters. Furthermore, I could not have alleviated their personal condition. Dentists who were working in such outside camps were better accommodated than the other inmates because in general they would receive an extra room near the dental stations. Already here they had a certain privilege because they did not have to sleep together in one barracks with hundreds or even more inmates. I did not know how many there were. Through that activity they also had the advantage, and I can say that from my own time of internment of having privileges with regard to food etc. However, I could not alleviate the situation in any other way.
Q. Did you ever try to better their conditions? This can be answered with a yes or no.
A. Yes, with regard to their accommodations and food, yes.
Q. Did you ever attempt to better the conditions of the less fortunate inmates, those who were not dentists and were not specially privileged, and this can be answered yes or no too, either you did or you didn't.
A. I was unable to do that. As a dentist, it was impossible for me to do something for the concentration camp inmates in general.
Q. Witness, I would like to inquire briefly into your official relations with your immediate superior in Ant D-3, Standartenfuehrer Lolling. Now, You have stated previously that you were his personal advisor. Can you tell me as briefly as possible just what matters you advised him on? I don't care for long answers; just briefly what sort of advice did you give him? Under what circumstances?
A. I can say it with one word: I consulted him in everything that concerned dental matters--and exclusively dental matters.
Q. Then if Lolling was in need of advice on this matter he would call you, and you would come into his office, and you would have a conference with him?
A. That was not always done. I have already stated that Lolling made his own decisions in many dental matters, and he would confront me with accomplished facts. He always did that in the personnel matters of dentists.
Q. Did you ever speak to Lolling about transfers and appointments of dentists? That is, were you ever concerned in discussions with him on personnel matters of your dentists located in concentration camps and outside labor camps?
A. Yes; certainly. He often made his own decisions with regard to the assignment and transfer of dentists, and he would inform me afterwards. However, it also happened here that whenever he wanted to transfer dentists from one camp to another he would seek my advice beforehand.
Q. I see. He would call you in and ask your advice on the value of transferring dentists within the concentration camps? In other words he would consult you before he made transfers of dentists -
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Mr. Higgins, when he gives you an answer I don't see why you must repeat it and say, "In other words, it is the same thing.."