Court No, II, Case No. 4.
A Yes.
Q Did you know that there was -- you admit you knew there were foreigners in these particular camps?
A Yes.
Q You also knew that they were being used for purposes other than the occupation of conquered countries, did you not?
A I don't understand that question, sir. Concentration camp inmates were never used to occupy a conquered country.
Q That is correct, and they were not used in the economy of a conquered country at all, were they?
A Then inmates, that is to say, foreigners were inmates in concentration camps, they were used in the Reich for the purpose of labor allocation.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Those purposes were not in the interests of the country, or the country of which the prisoner was a national, were they?
THE PRESIDENT: Isn't that a question of law perhaps, or at any rate it is a question to be argued to the Tribunal.
MR. RUDOLPH: I think he can indicate whether or not he knows that these people were foreigners, and the fact they were not used for any purpose that would be regarded as constructive for the work of that particular country.
THE PRESIDENT: I think you can ask the witness what they were used for, and then argue that was not such a purpose as is contemplated by your question.
We have been asked to advance the recess a few minutes for a special purpose. We will recess at this time.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Tribunal is again in session.
Q: Will you state what type of work foreign workers were engaged in who were assigned by you?
A: That cannot be explained in just one sentence, Mr. Prosecutor. First of all, they baked bread and at the same time they were building V-2 bombs, and I can't give you the exact details about all the things they did in between in just a few words.
Q: You can summarize by saying they were working the interest of the Reich.
A: They carried out all sorts of work, all sorts of jobs that could arise.
Q: Answer my question, "yes" or "no". Was it in the interest of the Reich?
A: Yes, of course, it was in the interest of the Reich, because in a war there is nothing at all that could not be in the interest of the Reich.
Q: Witness, didn't it ever occur to you this might possibly be an illegal use of labor?
A: No.
Q: Did you have a legal office connected with Amtsgruppe D?
A: In Amtsgruppe D was Sturmbannfuehrer Kiemer, whose field of task was matters of welfare and also legal questions.
Q: But you never inquired as to the legality of that particular undertaking, did you?
A: No.
Q: One more question on Amtsgruppe D. When was Amtsgruppe D-IV discontinued, or Office D-IV in Amtsgruppe D discontinued?
A: According to my recollection, I'd say it was in July 1942, and approximately a year after that it was re-established.
Q: Who undertook the discharge of their duties in the interim?
A: In the meantime in Amtsgruppe D there was an Obersturmfuehrer or Hauptsturmfuehrer who dealt with all matters of Office D-IV. However, I don't believe that he did it to the full extent, because, as I stated before, I myself compiled the list about the food allocations for heavy workers and I transferred that work to someone else after D-IV was re-established.
Q: Was it ever transferred to anybody in Amtsgruppe A or B and to anyone in those groups?
A: I don't know anything about that but I believe that any administration officer could give you information on that.
Q: Well, you filled out a chart here on the 8th of October and it has a note on D-IV having been reassigned to A and B. Now can you tell me to whom in A-III it was reassigned during the interim period?
A: On my organizational chart I have no such thing. That is the organizational chart which I signed myself and I added there that Office D-IV had been dissolved for quite a while. Office A-III took care of these things. That was an assumption on my part, just as I had assumed before that A checked up on the budget and that it also carried out audits. How it was really dealt with, I don't know. However, I have to assume that there were certain functions in the meantime. I didn't see anything to that effect myself.
Q: Whom would you assume in Amtsgruppe A or B as the logical person to take over these duties during that interim period?
A: Well, according to the organizational chart, I could imagine that, for instance as far as clothing was concerned, matters would be regulated between the camp commanders and Office B-II. However, as far as billeting was concerned, I believe you could have found somebody between administration and B-III, but if it really worked out that way, I couldn't tell you, because I didn't notice anything of the kind.
Q: But your assumption at the time you prepared this chart was that it did got to A and B, is that correct?
A: Well, Mr. Prosecutor, I did estimate the German burocracy quite highly and I believed that one office interpolated into the other, just like a cog wheel and according to my opinion that is the way it probably was, I presume things changed during the war.
Q: Will you tell me who in what office filled the requisitions for the allocation of prisoners for the Office Group C, SS Building Brigades through 04 through A?
THE PRESIDENT: Through what?
Q: You stated C made the requisition for the allocation of prisoners. That is on page 3 of Exhibit 597, the categories testified to.
A: You mean the labor assignment for the SS Construction Brigades, which is contained under 14K 204A in the organization chart 14 KL? According to my recollection there was an order by Himmler which went through Kammler. At a later date an agency was created, Inspector of the SS Construction Brigades. The man in charge there was Sturmbannfuehrer Weigl, and he carried out the necessary negotiations. There wasn't very much to negotiate about, because Himmler gave the orders and he carried out the orders.
Q: What precautions did you take or what supervision did you give as to the security measures and billeting of the prisoners assigned to this group?
A: The billets had to be assigned to us by the Oberbuergermeisters of these particular wities that applied for those construction brigades.
Q: What about security measures? Did you undertake those too?
A: The security measures first of all were provided by the concentration camps which provided the construction brigades and as I stated yesterday, they were also transferred to Kammler.
Q: But nobody else from your office inspected the brigade facilities to see whether they came up to your high standards, did you?
A. If Maurer at any time controlled the construction brigades, I don't know. Actually it was the task of the camp commandant. I myself in the autumn of 1942 was in Cologne to negotiate with the City of Cologne with reference to the pay for the inmates, and at the same time I also saw buildings.
Q. Did you during that time, did you inspect the billeting and did you observe the working conditions generally?
A. Yes, I said before, I looked at the billets. I said at a construction site where a potato bunker was being built.
Q. Then the facilities were acceptable and the work was being conducted in a nice, humane way, is that correct?
A. Yes, indeed. Both the City of Cologne and the firms and enterprises where the inmates were being used were very much interested in the fact to have people working for them who were working willingly so that all the bomb damages could be eliminated quickly. I know that food for those places by the City of Cologne in sufficient amounts.
Q. What billets were they able to provide in a bombed-out city?
A. In Cologne the inmates were billeted in a special exhibition site which was on the right-hand side of the Rhine.
Q. And how many inmates were billeted in this area, and how large was the area?
A. There was a large hall there, the exhibition hall, as I mentioned before. That is to say, that part where all those social receptions took place. There were several halls there, large halls to be sure, and they had from between 900 and 1000 inmates there according to my recollection.
Q. And I suppose there were adequate bedding facilities and clean linen present too?
A. Well, if they had linen on the beds, I don't know for sure. I can't recall that. There were beds and there were also sufficient blankets; but that was at the time when our soldiers in our barracks didn't have any linens on their beds.
Q. Call your attention to item 14 KL D- II- 04B, Allocation of Prisoners to Office Group C, Building for Armament Industry through Concentration Camps. Will you tell me how many inmates were assigned to this project, by whom they were requested, and generally what provision you made with respect to inspecting the billeting facilities and the food provisions of the camp?
A. We are speaking now of labor allocation of inmates right near a concentration camp for the construction of armament factories, they left the concentration camp in the morning, and they had to walk for about five minutes up to their place of work. In the evening, they returned to the concentration camp. Those construction tasks were carried out, as far as I can recall, and as far as can be seen from the organizational chart, by the local construction agency of Amtsgruppe C. According to my opinion they were requested by the construction management by Kammler. I can't tell you for sure, though.
Q. And did you make any inspection of the billeting facilities and the general conditions at this particular project?
A. No, not I.
Q. Did your office do that?
A. I assume that because those projects were right near the concentration camps, I assume that Maurer visited those places quite often. They always saw the construction places.
Q. Did you at any time when you visited any of these concentration camps notice these particular projects?
A. When I was in Buchenwald concentration camp in 1944, the construction project had been completed; and in the meantime, it had been destroyed by the American Air Force. I know about the construction project of the Zeppelin airship in Sachsenhausen. There were five or six barracks there, and a hall which had been built with stones which was to contain the Zeppelin itself.
Q. How far was this project from your office?
A. The last construction project, you mean, Mr. Prosecutor?
Q. Yes.
A. That cannot be described easily because there was no direct road to that construction project. The road which had to be taken went from our agency towards the north, and it took approximately 15 minutes to walk all the way.
Q. Well, how long did it take to walk to the camp proper?
A. You mean to the concentration camp at Sachsenhausen? I'd say about 8 minutes.
Q. And how often did you have an opportunity to observe this particular project?
A. The factory at Sachsenhausen?
Q. This item 04B/16.
A. I don't know how often I saw it, maybe I saw it on one opportunity or maybe three times. Barracks were set up there, and I did that myself while I was working in the labor service.
Q. And you had an opportunity to observe the conditions under which the people worked in the course of setting up these barracks?
A. I didn't carry out any inspections there. If I saw it, it was only while I was on my way to Sachsenhausen, and the road went right through there. That was when I had to use the train, and I saw the inmates there. I can't recall any particular incidents there, though.
Q. But you can't recall any of the inmates there being underfed or showing any signs of mistreatment, can you?
A. No.
Q. You stated on direct examination that you had fairly regular access to Sachsenhausen. How many times did you visit that particular project, I think it is that watch project you mentioned, and will you tell us what you observed on your various visits?
A. I saw the watch repair shops there, and I visited them once a month. And as I had to carry out the supervision over those work shops for approximately one year, I visited that camp approximately 15 times -- between ten and fifteen. And I did that when all the inmates were working. I went to the work shop, and I controlled the work shop as far as cleanliness was concerned, and I asked the watch makers themselves if they had any special wishes and then I returned to my agency.
Q. Where was the watch making plant, or watch repair shop located within the camp proper?
A. We went into the Protective Custody Camp, and it was on the right hand side, a special series of barracks there. It was the second or third barrack.
Q. Then you did have an opportunity on those occasions when you visited the watch repair shop to observe the inmates within Sachsenhausen Protective Custody Camp?
A. I stated before that the larger part of the inmates were working at that time, and there were only a very few inmates in the camp. However, I always saw at all times the inmates in the watch repair shop itself.
Q. And those inmates always looked to be healthy, well-fed, and in a happy frame of mind?
A. That would be an indecency on my part to say that one of these inmates looked happy. The inmates, however, looked healthy, and they didn't look starved. The man in charge of the watch repair shop reported to me one single occasion that an inmate from the watch repair shop who was in the dispensary there was no longer receiving his diet. I called up the doctor the same evening, and I told them to re-examine that inmate and make sure that he gets his diet. The inmate received that diet again on the basis of that stomach disease, or whatever it was.
Q. I call your attention to the next item on Document 597, called Concentration Camp Auschwitz, Allocation of Prisoners to Office Group C, Building. Will you tell me what that covered?
A. According to my recollection, it was a factory for the manufacture of ignitions for hand grenades or shells. I myself never visited that factory.
Q. Who made the request for labor at that particular camp?
A. I really can't recall that. The general conditions were such that Amtsgruppe C constructed or built for those armament industries which I mentioned before. Who made the application, I really don't know.
Q. Well, the applications weren't signed by Kammler, were they, in every instance?
A. I said generally speaking they were signed by Kammler; or then, if they actually came from Amtsgruppe C, it worked out that way. The channel was that the people who needed the inmates had to apply for themselves. For instance, if someone wanted some inmates at his house, he had to apply for them. Now, who applied for those inmates in this particular Krupp-Auschwitz, I really can't tell you.
Q. How many times did you visit Auschwitz?
A. I was in Auschwitz twice.
Q. And one time was in the -
A. One time was in the summer of 1943 on the occasion of a labor assignment leaders' conference; and the second time in November 1944 together with my wife.
Q. That was in the winter of '44, the period that the witness Bielski testified to as being the period in which he thought he saw you, is that correct?
A. No, it isn't. The witness Bielski, according to my recollection, stated that he saw me in the winter of 1943 in Auschwitz.
Q. Was it '43 or '44?
A. And I was in Auschwitz in the winter of '44 and '45.
Q. Well, then, you contend that you were never at Auschwitz during the period that Bielski testified to, is that correct?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. You believe it was this other summer that the Witness Rammler testified to, do you not?
A Yes, I am absolutely convinced about that.
Q And his name was what?
A We never did know than other man by the name of Sommer, nor did I ever meet him. The first time I heard about his name for the first time was when Bielski had made those charges against me from Pook. Pook had told me about that. He was in internment where Rammler was in charge, and he met the man Sommer there. That is the reason why I know there was a Sommer there.
Q You knew he was not an officer then?
A I was told and Rammler also testified to that effect he was a NCO.
Q And the man that Bielski testified about was not a NCO, was he?
A The man Bielski mentioned, and who he allegedly saw in the Winter of 1943 and '44 was described by him as having the rank of a Hauptsturmfuehrer. However, in his further statement he mentioned the fact that there were two more NCO's along with him, and the other NCO that was a Hauptsturmfuehrer.
Q At the time that Sommer was NCO, in his opinion Sommer was an officer?
A He said it was a Hauptsturmfuehrer in the Winter of '43 and '44. I was not a Hauptsturmfuehrer.
Q But neither were you a NCO, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct. I was an officer.
Q I draw your attention to the next item D II-04-4 of the concentration camp Buchenwald. How often were you at the Camp Buchenwald?
A I was at the Camp Buchenwald on one single occasion. I think the first time in 1944 after a return from the labor camp in Gustloff, that was in the Fall of 1944.
Q What does this item indicate, allocation of prisoners to Office Group-C Building?
A May I ask to what you are referring, Mr. Prosecutor?
Q I call your attention to D II-04-4, Concentration Camp Buchenwald, Allocation of Prisoners to Office Group-C Building?
A In that particular item it states 14 KL II 04-4, labor assignment for Amtsgruppe-C general correspondence.
Q Yes, but what was meant by the term Allocation of Prisoners to Office Group-C at Buchenwald?
A Yes, the Gustloff factory, or the Gustloff works, which I mentioned before, which was contained in a previous page of the document; I can not think of any other construction project in Buchenwald.
Q How about Dachau which was set forth in D II-04-5?
A Will you repeat that please?
Q How about the concentration camp of Dachau, which was set forth in the next item 14 KL D II 04-5?
A There also it is just general correspondence we collected.
Q Would this include complaints about the billeting, or of any infraction of the regulations pertaining to the treatment of inmates?
A If there were any complaints about billeting, then it would have to be sent to Amtsgruppen Chief Gluecks, and he probably would have forwarded it to the administration, which was responsible for the billeting within the concentration camp limits. What I mean is I can only see a general correspondence which goes to Amtsgruppe-C, to us, and where general things are contained therein which refers to the concentration camp of Dachau in construction matters, but all the things were put in detail. Of course, I can not tell you even today, at the present moment, about that.
Q I still don't know what that particular item covers. What kind of correspondence was it, this letter which they had, of so many prisoners allocated to building for Office Group-C, or did it refer to some particular matter? Will you give us some particular idea what it covered?
A It could be for that, yes, such a letter could be for that, but if there was any correspondence in that folder, and if the folder existed at all I really can not tell you. I tell you that it was a file charge which contained all the possibilities which could actually occur in the case there should occur such a thing, and there would be a file number for it, the type of organization, or rather the file in charge would not have to be changed basically.
Q Is that the file in which you would keep a letter from the concentration camp commandant requesting you not to send any more inmates to that particular camp because they were overcrowded?
A No, in that file I would put a letter which was addressed to Amtsgruppe-C from Office D-2, where they ask for something just in a general sense. That is when the correspondence was entered into one of those folders.
Q How many times were you at Dachau?
A I was in Dachau on one occasion. That was in the Fall of 1943, after I had submitted the mail to Maurer on the Sudelfeld.
Q That was an indirect way to go to Sudelfeld, wasn't it?
A No, not at all, Mr. Prosecutor, I left Berlin on Saturday nights, and I had to change a train at Augsburg, because Munich had been attacked over night, the night before rather, and then I had to fight my way through Munich, and from Dachau I had to get a car and proceed to Sudelfeld, and return from Sudelfeld on the same evening, and I could not return because the station at Munich was still destroyed, and I spent the night at Dachau, and on the following morning I went through the camp, and at eleven o'clock in the morning I returned to Berlin through Munich.
Q I believe you stated on direct examination that your visits to both Buchenwald and Dachau were at night, is that correct?
A No, that is to say, my arrival in Buchenwald was eight o'clock in the evening, and I was at the camp itself between nine and twelve in the morning. I arrived at Dachau in the evening, and again I visited the camp at eight or nine o'clock in the morning, and approximately at eleven o'clock I returned from Munich to Berlin.
Q What did you notice at Buchenwald with respect to the conditions of the inmates?
A In Buchenwald I went to a special room which contained statistics and reports. It was quite a barrack which contained all the files and records for the inmates. I spoke to one of the inmates in the presence of the Labor Assignment Leader, he demonstrated to me with tools and certain parts, how a job allocator would check the inmates for their abilities. Thereupon we left the camp, and I inspected the bomb damages at the Gustloff Works.
Q What opportunity did you have to observe the inmates there. You were there in the camp proper, so you must have seen some inmates around there. You must have had some idea what they looked like, and what the conditions were there, did you not? Did everybody look happy or well fed?
A They looked just as normal as a normal human being could look.
Q And the same thing I presume was true with respect to Dachau?
A Yes, indeed.
Q Coming to the item of 04-6, I understand that is the next one after Dachau, concentration camp Flossenburg?
A Yes.
Q Will you explain that to me, please?
A I can. We have labor assignment for distribution tasks which were being carried out by Amtsgruppe-C, and which also deals with the various files where inmates were being used, and they were stated in there.
Q How many inmates would you say were allocated to these particular groups of projects?
A Mr. Prosecutor, it is absolutely impossible for me to tell you that today, how many inmates were given to those various projects.
Q Witness, you have demonstrated in a remarkable manner on different occasions when you were submitting singular list of Mr. Booth. You gave figures in approximately five-hundred companies. I am not asking you too much to tell me what this particular group contained approximately?
AApproximately, I say, so far as I Can recall, at Schloss Neubuerstein near the Elbe, there were approximately two-hundred to threehundred inmates; with the SS Karstwehr Company there could have been one-hundred and fifty to two-hundred; with the Engineer Reserves Brigade in Dresden I say it had been approximately the same number; for the SS-Barracks in Nuernberg I don't believe we had more than fifty; while on the parade grounds in Beneschau there were possibly five-hundred. I say, possibly.
Q Making a total of about eleven hundred, is that right?
A I didn't count them over, Mr. Prosecutor. I don't remember the exact figures.
Q What particular assignment did these prisoners have? Will you explain to me what SS accommodation Nurnberg entailed?
A They had to carry out construction tasks.
Q In what part of Nurnberg did this take place, and what type of construction?
AAccording to my assumption I believe that they worked at the SS Kaserne here in Nurnberg near Soldiers' Field.
Q How often did you visit Flossenbuerg?
A I was never in Flossenbuerg.
Q Turn to the next page on camp Gross-Rosen. Pardon me just one moment. Who requested the inmates on D-II/04/6, will you tell me?
A I should think the construction manager who was competent for the area.
Q Well, who would that be? You have a very good memory for names.
A Mr. Prosecutor, we have here five construction sites and there were five managers whom I didn't know personally, and they were subordinate to a construction management which was higher up. I didn't know these people.
Q Who made the request, the construction manager who was higher up, or the individual who wanted the labor?
A No, I stated before that man in whose house these inmates were to work, the man in charge of the construction, sends an application to the camp commandant, and he forwards the order to Berlin, the application, and that is the normal procedure.
Q Someone in Amtsgruppe C would have known about that and would have had to request it, would he not?
A Yes, Office C "5, that is to say, the man Prinzel whom I mentioned before, who was in charge of the labor assignment of inmates, that is to say, as far as the bureaucratic set-up was concerned, he should have known about it.
Q That is Office C-V of which Lenzer was the head, is that not correct?
A That is Office C-V, yes. I know that Kammler himself was in charge of that office. I can see on the organizational chart that two more names are contained there, but I am still of the opinion that Kammler was always personally in charge of that office.
Q But it would have had to go through Lenzer in every event, would it not?
A If it came through C-V, then Prinzel, who was in charge of the labor assignment there, would have had to report it to his chief. Maybe it was Lenzer there.
Q With respect to the camp of Gross-Rosen, will you tell me approximately how many were employed in the three projects, or the two projects listed there, who requested the labor, and what the general nature of it was?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Mr. Rudolph, I presume you have some definite plan in cross-examination on this long document.
THE PRESIDENT: It isn't coming through.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: It is not apparent to me just what design you are following in this long detailed cross-examination on this document. We are not endeavoring to audit the accounts of this office which is involved. Now, unless there is something which you are seeking to obtain which is going to help us decide the issues, just merely taking up item after item and going through it in this routine fashion isn't going to help us very much.
MR. RUDOLPH: Well, there was one important reason that I was taking it up, and it was primarily an informational purpose for our own use. We have never had this explained competently or thoroughly by anyone. This man is the proper man to inform us about that. What I will get out of it, I can't say.
Insofar as the information is relevantly concerned, it is apparent that I am getting very little, but I think that the Prosecution should have the opportunity of pursuing this through. I know it is tedious. It is very tedious to me, and I am reluctant to do it except for the informational purpose that we have in mind.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Well, if the information that you hope to obtain is going to help finally in the disposition of the issues, then, of course, it is highly relevant and profitable, but if it is just merely to get information which is not going to help us in determining the issues, then it is time lost.
MR. RUDOLPH: One of the things I am trying to show here is the fact that Office Group C used this labor for these various purposes, and that the members of Amtsgruppe C were aware of it. This man should also know about that, but his very convenient memory always slips him on these important things. I am sorry I can't help the type of information I am getting from him, but I do believe it shows a very definite pattern. It shows knowledge on the part of all the defendants of the actual use of concentration-camp labor for the projects which they themselves were interested in.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Proceed.
MR. RUDOLPH: Thank you.
Q (By Mr. Rudolph) I think we stopped with Gross-Rosen. Will you briefly tell me what the nature of these particular projects were, how many people were approximately employed, and who made the request?
A Mr. Prosecutor, Amtsgruppe C could only have carried out construction tasks, and I believe that applies to all the units in Amtsgruppe C. According to my estimate, we detailed three to four thousand inmate details in those three years. It is impossible for me to know who applied for all those labor units or the details. The WVHA, according to my estimate in 1942, I repeat, according to my estimate, used approximately sixty percent of the concentration-camp inmates, and at the end of 1944 or early in '45 it was at the utmost five percent.