A: If you please, I didn't understand your question.
Q: How often did you receive these reports from the concentration camps with respect to the plan for the documentary unification? They filed reports regularly, I believe. How often did you receive them and who sent them to you?
A: The request for inmates would reach D-II when a detachment was being put together.
Q: I asked you, witness, how often you received reports on the camps. This Exhibit 360 called for certain information to be submitted to you. How frequently were they submitted and by whom in the concentration camps?
A: In these files which are being mentioned in the file plan, all correspondence which concerned itself with a special detachment was filed. This was, one, the report by the camp commandate about his findings before the detachment was being put together; then the approved request, and in addition, any additional correspondence which might occur. Reports about the actual work done by the inmates would reach D-II on the 20th of each month about all camps. These reports described who was employing inmates, how many they were employing, and in most cases, production figures, and the report from the firm about the work done and the amount of bonuses paid out. These reports were then put together by D-II for a report which had to reach Pohl by the 25th of each month.
Q: I call your attention to Item 14 KL D-II/03 on page 3 of that exhibit, page 2 of the English, Allocation of Prisoners for the Camp Purposes within the Camps Economic Setup and to Office Group D. Will you kindly explain that particular account?
A: Certainly. Here it became necessary to file any additional correspondence which might concern inmates and production. I said yesterday that the figure of inmates used there amounted to ten percent of the total of the camp. Pohl paid great attention to this point whenever he received the list about the whole labor allocation on the 25th.
Therefore, it became necessary and occurred that correspondence was carried out.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Let me ask one question, please. In addition to the reports made by the various industries, labor that was allocated by D-II, did D-II have any other follow-up procedure in regard to the inmates that it had allocated to the various places where they were needed?
A: Do you mean another way of making out the reports?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: No, no, did you have any further supervision, or any further information after you allocated labor other than the reports that came back to your office to be transmitted to Pohl? Was that all?
A: Your Honor, Office Chief Maurer went frequently on official trips and very frequently saw on the spot what was going on before a detachment was being put together. He looked into all these details and as I remember it, he always preceeded the camp commandant.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: In other words, Maurer, Chief of D-II, inspected the labor after it was allocated for D-II?
A: Usually he visited the firms, but also afterwards, after the inmates had been transferred.
BY MR. RUDOLPH:
Q: What is meant by the term "Camp Purposes within the Camp's Economic setup," and what types of labor would that include, and what types of assignments would that include?
A: The term "Camp Purposes" is contained in Document NO-1961, which is Exhibit 364 in Book 13. It is explained there in great detail. Camp Purposes are, as I remember, kitchen, stables, libraries, inmate potato peelers, repair shops, and so forth. They are, in other words, all those detachments which are important for maintenance of the camp.
That means maintenance for camp purposes.
THE PRESIDENT: Including crematoria? There are 18 men there, you see, assigned to the crematorium.
A: Eight inmates belong to the crematorium, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Eight?
A: Yes, eight.
THE PRESIDENT: Isn't it 18?
A: In the German document book, it is 8, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that at Buchenwald for July?
A: Yes, July, '44.
THE PRESIDENT: You are looking at Exhibit 364, are you, document book 13?
A: Yes, Your Honor, and on the German photostatic copy it also gives the figure 8 inmates for crematorium.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I am looking at the photostat, and it is indefinite. It may be 8 or it may be 18. I am not sure that makes much difference.
BY MR. RUDOLPH:
Q: You forgot to mention that medical experiments were included in Camp purposes, did you not, witness?
A: No. For the medical experiments it says explicitly -- I believe it was in Book 9 -- yes, Book 9, Exhibit 186, there is an order from Maurer that it had to be listed under Camp Economic and Camp Purposes as a special item. It says so on the inside page. It says, "Inmates for medical experiments and nurses for medical experiments." It was given there.
Q: Well, Camp Purposes would include medical purposes, would it not?
A: No, they exclude them. They are not set up under Camp Purposes.
Q: Well, where would they be listed?
A: They are handled as a labor allocation item for the reason that they had nothing to do with Camp Purposes. They were completely outside of that term.
Q: Where in this summary would they be included?
A: They were included nowhere. On the inside page of this survey, on the left, they were listed the various firms which employed inmates. That column began with the term "Total Figure", then underneath it says, "Unable to work". They deducted the total figure. Then "Capable to work", then "Camp Purposes", then "Camp Economy", then "Inmates for experiments," and then "Nurses for experiments." And then the various firms which employed inmates were listed in a definite order. It started with Office Group C and it ended with the SS agencies.
Q: Well, they don't appear in Document 597, do they?
A: No, that is the file plan; and as I said before, that office D-II had no idea for what purposes these inmates had been ear-marked. The fact that experiments were carried out was known to us, but any close preponderance about the kind of experiments an and so forth never reached us. That is the reason nothing is said about it in the plan.
Q: You know about the fact that experiments were conducted and you still made no provision for this in this file plan that you yourself prepared, is that correct?
A: In a file plan, all I can provide for is a file if any correspondence arises in my office. As no correspondence reached our office about the experiment, I had no cause to start a file in my file plan for that.
Q: But you were aware of the fact that inmates were being assigned for that purpose, it was your responsibility to know that disposition was being of the inmates, and you did not see fit to undertake to setup an account which would show that, did you?
THE PRESIDENT: What do you mean by setting up an account?
MR. RUDOLPH: Setting up some sort of a title, which camp was using them for that particular reason.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness has said there wasn't anything to go into such a file because there was no correspondence, no documents relating to the medical experiments.
MR. RUDOLPH: I understand that, Your Honor. I am merely trying to bring out the fact that it was deliberate on their part that they didn't set this up in any way, or take cognizance of the fact, and were disregarding that fact and didn't show it in any way. It was a concealed item of war. This particular defendant was the man who could set it up if he had wanted to set it up.
THE PRESIDENT: Of course, you may ask him that. It strikes me it is a great deal like my setting up a file for correspondence on copper sulphate. I haven't got any such correspondence, so I don't provide for a file for it; but let's see what the witness says.
A: I said that in Office D-II no correspondence came in about the experiments which was the reason why it did not become necessary to start a file. I said yesterday that in the Sievers' diary a lot is said about experiments, but not one word is mentioned about negotiations carried out between Maurer, myself, and Sievers, because no reason existed to do so which is the reason why the file plans couldn't say one word about experiments -- we had no correspondence about it.
Q: Witness, you know about the fact that Dr. Clauberg conducted experiments on sterilization? I believe you also mentioned artificial insemination?
A: No, I did not know that, artificial insemination. I heard something about it after November 1944 when I and my wife visited Clauberg.
Gluecks told me about this, but about sterilization he said nothing.
Q: When you were interrogated by Alfred Booth on the 4th of October, he asked you if you knew about sterilization by Clauberg, and you said, "Yes, it was madness." What did you mean by that?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Mr. Booth and I talked about this point, and I said that I had heard something about artificial insemination. But as far as I remember it was Mr. Booth who said that the sterilization was carried out there, too.
Q And your comment on that was that what he did was madness. That certainly indicated you had knowledge of that, witness?
A I believe, Mr. Prosecutor, that if you were to read to me the interrogation the entire text would become clear. I believe that Mr. Booth asked me had this been done this would have been madness, and I said, yes, in that case it would be madness. That is how it was, I think.
Q Let's start at the beginning. The question put to you is do you consider it a crime to sterilize people, and your answer in referring to Dr. Clauberg, was that what he did was madness?
A Yes, he talked about it before that, if sterilization had been carried out then it would have been madness.
Q Do you consider medical experimentation a proper assignment for concentration camp inmates?
A No, I don't. You mean, somewhere -
Q But you knew absolutely nothing about it, did you?
A I knew nothing of the kind and the consequences of these medical experiments.
Q You told us a long story Monday about an inmate named Schenk who was imprisoned at Oranienburg whom you were able to have released. Did you after being informed of his criminal record discuss the matter with him when you saw him later?
A I did not release him. I advocated his release as an employee of the DEST, toward the RSHA, or toward the Reich Criminal Police Office, and I myself went and called at that office. Before that request was made, I talked to the inmate Schenk for a long time. I did not see him afterwards, or talk to him.
Q Did you inform him of the fact that he had committed these Court No. II, Case No. 4.crimes, and since you were responsible for his release, didn't you feel an obligation to investigate the truth of these statements?
A Yes, the Criminal Director Andechser told me of this when I went and called at the Reich Criminal Police Office.
Q My question is, did you affirm this, or attempt to verify this by talking to Schenk?
A I asked Schenk why he was in a concentration camp, and he told me he did not know, and then I found out later on that he had a considerable criminal record.
Q That is not the question I asked you. I am asking you, did you have this story affirmed, or did you try to verify it by talking to the man who had knowledge of all these crimes?
THE PRESIDENT: After you found out about Schenk's criminal record, did you confront him with it?
WITNESS: No, Your Honor. I said yesterday that after ten days, roughly, the man misbehaved again, and that later on he received more punishment. After Schenk was released, I did not see him or talk to him. I only heard about him from the work manager.
BY MR. RUDOLPH:
Q And you don't know the reason of his re-imprisonment?
A When he was released he did not turn up for his work, and I don't know what the reason was, because the DEST wished to employ him as a foreman because he was a good worker. Why he was again incarcerated later on, I don't know.
Q In your opinion did the Gestapo ever arrest an innocent person, and acknowledge it as such?
A I don't know that. All I heard was that he once again went back to Sachsenhausen, or some plant of the DEST, but I don't know where he was seen after that.
Q Was an innocent person ever arrested by the Gestapo, yes or no?
A I was never with the Gestapo. I never arrested anybody, and Court No. II, Case No. 4.I am unable to answer your question, Mr. President.
Q Did you ever hear of the brutal methods being employed for the purpose of forcing companies to use victims of the Gestapo?
A No.
Q Coming back to the filing report. Will you explain Item 14-K-L-D-2-04, entitled "Allocation of Prisoners to Office Group-C, and other concentration camps."
A Yes, the basic file report of allocation of inmates for Office Group-C was to be established as a matter of principle with concentration camps, because there all correspondence might reach us. Apart from that the camps in Office D-2 filed the various subdivisions. For instance, Office Group-C Building Brigades, Armament Industry, etc. was so and so here, and it explains it.
Q Now what type of labor were the prisoners required to perform under this Section 04A to 04B?
A Under 04A the files concerned the Construction Brigades. That is to say, these brigades repaired the bomb damage in Cologne, Duisburg and Wuppertal, and the Construction Brigade was also sent to Hamburg and to Berlin. The 5th SS Construction Brigade was constructing launching sites for the reprisal weapons on the Atlantic Wall, and the 1st SS Construction Brigade worked on fortification on the island of Alderney, I believe. That, as far as I know, was under the supervision of the Todt Organization.
Q Approximately how many men were assigned to this particular project, or these projects?
A Each Construction Brigade contained an average of 1000 inmates. When the 5th SS Building Brigade went to France, then the building management lent some of their inmates to the 5th Construction Brigade, and then I believe it consisted of about 2,500 inmates in France. Whereas, the Construction Brigade of Alderney consisted of about six or seven hundred men.
Q Then the total would be roughly about 7,500?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A I think that estimate is too high. I think there were about five thousand or six thousand.
Q Now, were punitive companies located in any of these particular groups?
A I said yesterday on direct examination that the punitive companies, as I recall it at the beginning of 1943, had to be dissolved, and therefore, no punitive companies can form part of these Construction Brigades.
Q Were there any PW's employed in any of these Construction Brigades?
A I said yesterday that all I know was that prisoners of war who had volunteered for the Zeppelin works were housed for sometime in the concentration camps. They were not used for work, nor do I know anything about prisoners of war being used in concentration camps on labor assignments, including the SS Construction Brigades.
Q How many male Russian prisoners did you have?
AAs to any proportion between various groups of inmates, I never knew anything about that.
Q Weren't those records kept at any place?
AAbout the type of imprisonment you mean, and the nationality?
Q As to the nationalities yes?
A I assume by Office D-1.
Q And did you have any access to those records?
A No, I did not. I had no access to them.
Q Do you deny any knowledge of the number of Russians or Poles that existed as inmates in the concentration camps?
A I had no access to these records. However, I knew that there were Poles and Russians in the camps.
Q Do you know whether there were a great many?
A I believe that there was a very large number of Poles and Russians.
Q And did you think they were all civilians?
Court No, II, Case No. 4.
A Yes.
Q Did you know that there was -- you admit you knew there were foreigners in these particular camps?
A Yes.
Q You also knew that they were being used for purposes other than the occupation of conquered countries, did you not?
A I don't understand that question, sir. Concentration camp inmates were never used to occupy a conquered country.
Q That is correct, and they were not used in the economy of a conquered country at all, were they?
A Then inmates, that is to say, foreigners were inmates in concentration camps, they were used in the Reich for the purpose of labor allocation.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Those purposes were not in the interests of the country, or the country of which the prisoner was a national, were they?
THE PRESIDENT: Isn't that a question of law perhaps, or at any rate it is a question to be argued to the Tribunal.
MR. RUDOLPH: I think he can indicate whether or not he knows that these people were foreigners, and the fact they were not used for any purpose that would be regarded as constructive for the work of that particular country.
THE PRESIDENT: I think you can ask the witness what they were used for, and then argue that was not such a purpose as is contemplated by your question.
We have been asked to advance the recess a few minutes for a special purpose. We will recess at this time.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Tribunal is again in session.
Q: Will you state what type of work foreign workers were engaged in who were assigned by you?
A: That cannot be explained in just one sentence, Mr. Prosecutor. First of all, they baked bread and at the same time they were building V-2 bombs, and I can't give you the exact details about all the things they did in between in just a few words.
Q: You can summarize by saying they were working the interest of the Reich.
A: They carried out all sorts of work, all sorts of jobs that could arise.
Q: Answer my question, "yes" or "no". Was it in the interest of the Reich?
A: Yes, of course, it was in the interest of the Reich, because in a war there is nothing at all that could not be in the interest of the Reich.
Q: Witness, didn't it ever occur to you this might possibly be an illegal use of labor?
A: No.
Q: Did you have a legal office connected with Amtsgruppe D?
A: In Amtsgruppe D was Sturmbannfuehrer Kiemer, whose field of task was matters of welfare and also legal questions.
Q: But you never inquired as to the legality of that particular undertaking, did you?
A: No.
Q: One more question on Amtsgruppe D. When was Amtsgruppe D-IV discontinued, or Office D-IV in Amtsgruppe D discontinued?
A: According to my recollection, I'd say it was in July 1942, and approximately a year after that it was re-established.
Q: Who undertook the discharge of their duties in the interim?
A: In the meantime in Amtsgruppe D there was an Obersturmfuehrer or Hauptsturmfuehrer who dealt with all matters of Office D-IV. However, I don't believe that he did it to the full extent, because, as I stated before, I myself compiled the list about the food allocations for heavy workers and I transferred that work to someone else after D-IV was re-established.
Q: Was it ever transferred to anybody in Amtsgruppe A or B and to anyone in those groups?
A: I don't know anything about that but I believe that any administration officer could give you information on that.
Q: Well, you filled out a chart here on the 8th of October and it has a note on D-IV having been reassigned to A and B. Now can you tell me to whom in A-III it was reassigned during the interim period?
A: On my organizational chart I have no such thing. That is the organizational chart which I signed myself and I added there that Office D-IV had been dissolved for quite a while. Office A-III took care of these things. That was an assumption on my part, just as I had assumed before that A checked up on the budget and that it also carried out audits. How it was really dealt with, I don't know. However, I have to assume that there were certain functions in the meantime. I didn't see anything to that effect myself.
Q: Whom would you assume in Amtsgruppe A or B as the logical person to take over these duties during that interim period?
A: Well, according to the organizational chart, I could imagine that, for instance as far as clothing was concerned, matters would be regulated between the camp commanders and Office B-II. However, as far as billeting was concerned, I believe you could have found somebody between administration and B-III, but if it really worked out that way, I couldn't tell you, because I didn't notice anything of the kind.
Q: But your assumption at the time you prepared this chart was that it did got to A and B, is that correct?
A: Well, Mr. Prosecutor, I did estimate the German burocracy quite highly and I believed that one office interpolated into the other, just like a cog wheel and according to my opinion that is the way it probably was, I presume things changed during the war.
Q: Will you tell me who in what office filled the requisitions for the allocation of prisoners for the Office Group C, SS Building Brigades through 04 through A?
THE PRESIDENT: Through what?
Q: You stated C made the requisition for the allocation of prisoners. That is on page 3 of Exhibit 597, the categories testified to.
A: You mean the labor assignment for the SS Construction Brigades, which is contained under 14K 204A in the organization chart 14 KL? According to my recollection there was an order by Himmler which went through Kammler. At a later date an agency was created, Inspector of the SS Construction Brigades. The man in charge there was Sturmbannfuehrer Weigl, and he carried out the necessary negotiations. There wasn't very much to negotiate about, because Himmler gave the orders and he carried out the orders.
Q: What precautions did you take or what supervision did you give as to the security measures and billeting of the prisoners assigned to this group?
A: The billets had to be assigned to us by the Oberbuergermeisters of these particular wities that applied for those construction brigades.
Q: What about security measures? Did you undertake those too?
A: The security measures first of all were provided by the concentration camps which provided the construction brigades and as I stated yesterday, they were also transferred to Kammler.
Q: But nobody else from your office inspected the brigade facilities to see whether they came up to your high standards, did you?
A. If Maurer at any time controlled the construction brigades, I don't know. Actually it was the task of the camp commandant. I myself in the autumn of 1942 was in Cologne to negotiate with the City of Cologne with reference to the pay for the inmates, and at the same time I also saw buildings.
Q. Did you during that time, did you inspect the billeting and did you observe the working conditions generally?
A. Yes, I said before, I looked at the billets. I said at a construction site where a potato bunker was being built.
Q. Then the facilities were acceptable and the work was being conducted in a nice, humane way, is that correct?
A. Yes, indeed. Both the City of Cologne and the firms and enterprises where the inmates were being used were very much interested in the fact to have people working for them who were working willingly so that all the bomb damages could be eliminated quickly. I know that food for those places by the City of Cologne in sufficient amounts.
Q. What billets were they able to provide in a bombed-out city?
A. In Cologne the inmates were billeted in a special exhibition site which was on the right-hand side of the Rhine.
Q. And how many inmates were billeted in this area, and how large was the area?
A. There was a large hall there, the exhibition hall, as I mentioned before. That is to say, that part where all those social receptions took place. There were several halls there, large halls to be sure, and they had from between 900 and 1000 inmates there according to my recollection.
Q. And I suppose there were adequate bedding facilities and clean linen present too?
A. Well, if they had linen on the beds, I don't know for sure. I can't recall that. There were beds and there were also sufficient blankets; but that was at the time when our soldiers in our barracks didn't have any linens on their beds.
Q. Call your attention to item 14 KL D- II- 04B, Allocation of Prisoners to Office Group C, Building for Armament Industry through Concentration Camps. Will you tell me how many inmates were assigned to this project, by whom they were requested, and generally what provision you made with respect to inspecting the billeting facilities and the food provisions of the camp?
A. We are speaking now of labor allocation of inmates right near a concentration camp for the construction of armament factories, they left the concentration camp in the morning, and they had to walk for about five minutes up to their place of work. In the evening, they returned to the concentration camp. Those construction tasks were carried out, as far as I can recall, and as far as can be seen from the organizational chart, by the local construction agency of Amtsgruppe C. According to my opinion they were requested by the construction management by Kammler. I can't tell you for sure, though.
Q. And did you make any inspection of the billeting facilities and the general conditions at this particular project?
A. No, not I.
Q. Did your office do that?
A. I assume that because those projects were right near the concentration camps, I assume that Maurer visited those places quite often. They always saw the construction places.
Q. Did you at any time when you visited any of these concentration camps notice these particular projects?
A. When I was in Buchenwald concentration camp in 1944, the construction project had been completed; and in the meantime, it had been destroyed by the American Air Force. I know about the construction project of the Zeppelin airship in Sachsenhausen. There were five or six barracks there, and a hall which had been built with stones which was to contain the Zeppelin itself.
Q. How far was this project from your office?
A. The last construction project, you mean, Mr. Prosecutor?
Q. Yes.
A. That cannot be described easily because there was no direct road to that construction project. The road which had to be taken went from our agency towards the north, and it took approximately 15 minutes to walk all the way.
Q. Well, how long did it take to walk to the camp proper?
A. You mean to the concentration camp at Sachsenhausen? I'd say about 8 minutes.
Q. And how often did you have an opportunity to observe this particular project?
A. The factory at Sachsenhausen?
Q. This item 04B/16.
A. I don't know how often I saw it, maybe I saw it on one opportunity or maybe three times. Barracks were set up there, and I did that myself while I was working in the labor service.
Q. And you had an opportunity to observe the conditions under which the people worked in the course of setting up these barracks?
A. I didn't carry out any inspections there. If I saw it, it was only while I was on my way to Sachsenhausen, and the road went right through there. That was when I had to use the train, and I saw the inmates there. I can't recall any particular incidents there, though.
Q. But you can't recall any of the inmates there being underfed or showing any signs of mistreatment, can you?
A. No.
Q. You stated on direct examination that you had fairly regular access to Sachsenhausen. How many times did you visit that particular project, I think it is that watch project you mentioned, and will you tell us what you observed on your various visits?
A. I saw the watch repair shops there, and I visited them once a month. And as I had to carry out the supervision over those work shops for approximately one year, I visited that camp approximately 15 times -- between ten and fifteen. And I did that when all the inmates were working. I went to the work shop, and I controlled the work shop as far as cleanliness was concerned, and I asked the watch makers themselves if they had any special wishes and then I returned to my agency.
Q. Where was the watch making plant, or watch repair shop located within the camp proper?
A. We went into the Protective Custody Camp, and it was on the right hand side, a special series of barracks there. It was the second or third barrack.
Q. Then you did have an opportunity on those occasions when you visited the watch repair shop to observe the inmates within Sachsenhausen Protective Custody Camp?
A. I stated before that the larger part of the inmates were working at that time, and there were only a very few inmates in the camp. However, I always saw at all times the inmates in the watch repair shop itself.
Q. And those inmates always looked to be healthy, well-fed, and in a happy frame of mind?
A. That would be an indecency on my part to say that one of these inmates looked happy. The inmates, however, looked healthy, and they didn't look starved. The man in charge of the watch repair shop reported to me one single occasion that an inmate from the watch repair shop who was in the dispensary there was no longer receiving his diet. I called up the doctor the same evening, and I told them to re-examine that inmate and make sure that he gets his diet. The inmate received that diet again on the basis of that stomach disease, or whatever it was.
Q. I call your attention to the next item on Document 597, called Concentration Camp Auschwitz, Allocation of Prisoners to Office Group C, Building. Will you tell me what that covered?