Q. No, they are not arrested because they are criminals or have violated any law. They are arrested because they have been captured, that's all.
A. No, your Honor. After all, they had a working contract before, and they must have signed a working contract out of their own free will.
Q. You don't believe that, do you? You don't believe that the captured Poles signed contracts to make munitions for the Germans?
A. The picture in wartime in Germany was such that it was hard to see a German worker. It was typical to see a German worker in the streets but there were many foreign workers, and they did not look unhappy at all. They did not look as if they were suppressed. I had the impression at the time that they had come to Germany to work quite voluntarily. After all, they were able to walk about the streets freely.
Q. There's no doubt that some of them did. The ones that were walking about the streets were quite happy; the ones that were in the concentration camps were not. Well, I'm holding up progress. Maybe I am making some progress, though.
THE PRESIDENT: Go ahead, Counsel.
BY DR. BEIZER:
Q. Witness, did you have any observations to make?
A. May I say something with regard to the previous question? After all, the situation was such that the concentration camp inmates represented labor which was very much in demand, and many visitors came constantly to Oranienburg, or applicants made written requests to have their firms supplied with inmate labor. The Office D II never referred a request for labor to the RSHA in which it had been stated that the German armament industry needed an additional number of thousands of workers. That was never done. A request of a firm was disapproved if inmates were not available; and it was approved whenever the prerequisites were fulfilled and inmates could be furnished. The whole development of the so-called pay for inmates I have seen only from the sidelines so to speak. It is correct that the plants in 1942 paid thirty pfennigs per inmate per day.
This amount, to my knowledge, had been set by the Reich Ministry of Finance. Later on the Reich Ministry of Finance urged for an increase in these payments because it maintained the point of view that the concentration camps should finance themselves. The increase of the pay for inmates then took place gradually, step by step, just as the Reich Ministry of Finance had urged. In the end, the pay for an auxiliary worker would amount to four marks, and for a skilled worker to six marks per day. The Reich Ministry of Finance was satisfied with the wage scale. However, all of this money went into the Reich treasury.
Q. Witness, in this connection can you tell us whether you know what scales the Reich set for the food and maintenance of the inmates?
A. I don't know the exact allotments.
Q. I now come to a different question. Did you make any observations about a systematic extermination of concentration camp inmates through work, in particular by turning them over to so-called punitive detachments or punitive companies? Please take a look at Exhibit 13, in Document Book I. This is your own affidavit; and I want you to look at it first and read Paragraph 6, which is the last paragraph.
In my affidavit I have testified, and I quote: "I know today that when I entered my position in May, 1942, so-called punitive detachments existed in the camps, and that these punitive detachments which officially were dissolved at the end of '42 or the beginning of '43 were listed in a camouflage manner in the labor assignment reports, and that in the individual detachments more workers were furnished than were actually listed. I know that in some of these punitive detachments, especially in stone quarries, work was so difficult physically, and the inmates were driven to work in such a manner that it can be said that many inmates were worked to death in the truest sense of the word. I also know that those inmates which were sent to punitive detachments mostly were unpopular inmates in the concentration camps."
With regard to this statement in my affidavit I would like to say the following: I know that punitive companies, so-called punitive companies existed in the concentration camps. If I remember correctly early in 1943 Gluecks, by request of Maurer, ordered that these punitive companies were to be dissolved because inmates were constantly withdrawn from the production who had committed some minor offense, and who had therefore been transferred to these punitive companies. Consequently they were not able to perform their work any more. That was the reason why the punitive companies were to be dissolved. At the time the camp commanders in person had to report that these punitive companies had been dissolved and discontinued. This happened in all camps.
In April of last year I was a witness in the Neuengamme trial. On that occasion I heard for the first time that even after these punitive companies had been prohibited, in the camp of Neuengamme a punitive company remained in existence. I heard that in the following manner. On Friday morning we had to wash our laundry, and one of the witnesses told me that he was suffering from pain in his heart. He told me that he as a member of the punitive company he had been maltreated. That was in the fall of 194.
When I told him that this could not have happened because after all the punitive companies had already been dissolved a long time before that, he told me that until the end a punitive company had existed at Neuengamme. A member of the headquarters commandant's staff then confirmed this fact to me afterwards, and he told me that the punitive company had been maintained by order of the camp commander, and the inmates had been reported in a camouflaged manner. This former inmate who told me about this matter of the punitive company also told me that inmates who were unpopular were put into that punitive company, and that he also had only been transferred to the punitive company because he had been unpopular.
The phrase which refers to the stone quarries was included in the affidavit because the interrogator, in the course of a pre-trial interrogation, told me that Mummenthey had made that statement, and that I certainly should be able to confirm it. At that time I said that I didn't know anything about it. However, when I signed the affidavit I did not know that the fact, of which I said that I only know it today, would be conceived in such a way that I had ought to have known it before also. I shall refer to this affidavit later on again.
However, from Document Book 12 I would like with regard to Exhibit 333, Document 654-PS, I would like to make a very brief statement with regard to that document. This is the file note of Thierack where he states that antisocial elements are to be turned over by the judicial system to the SS in order to be exterminated through work. I have seen this document for the first time here in this court. I have heard of it for the first time during the Neuengamme trial where I was a witness. Later on in the internment camp I have talked to the former Minister of Justice, Thierack, about that matter. Thierack, first of all, denied that such a document existed at all. Later on he admitted it, and he stated to me that he did not mean by that that these inmates were to be exterminated through work. He only meant that these antisocial inmates were to be used for work which was particularly dangerous.
At the time he told me that he -- and I asked him about that in particular -- had not submitted a copy of that file note to Pohl. I also want to point out that Thierack was never a member of the SS. The entire document is a terrible nonsense in itself, because after all in Germany we needed more and more workers. People were mobilized up to the last woman, and they were made to work at the machines, We therefore all of us had to be interested in keeping every single worker as possible.
When the Document R-129, Exhibit 40, in Document Book 2, which represents the order of Pohl to the camp commanders when Amtsgruppe D was incorporated into the WVHA was discussed, the Prosecution has alleged here that his expression "labor allocation" must be exhaustive in the true sense of the word," could be interpreted in that sense. At the time when this order was issued to the agencies, the word "exhaustive" was understood to mean a phrase which was very common at that time, and which was exclusively used by the labor assignment authorities. What they meant to say was the last man was to be used. It did not mean that every man was to work until he was so exhausted he could not perform further work. Actually in another document the working hours were set at eleven hours a day. I know that many firms in Germany did not work these eleven hours, and their inmates did not work eleven hours either.
Q You, therefore, meant to say that the statements in the affidavit, Exhibit 13, are not based on your observations during the course of your activity in Office D-II, but they are based on experiences which you had after the collapse?
A Yes, that is correct. I knew that punitive companies had existed, but I did not know what effects they had. I therefore stated expressly that I know that today.
Q Do you know anything about particularly brutal methods which were used to drive the inmates to work? Please take a look at Document NO-1544, Exhibit 137, Page 104, and English, Page 190.
That is in Document Book 5.
A This is the order that inmates are, under no circumstances, to be beaten, and that the prisoners are only to be driven to work with words. I must say that this order in its tendency was already included in the camp standard order of procedure, and that it was known to the prisoners, because the former inmate, Gross, in his book, "2,000 Days in Dachau," on Page 227 has quoted this order in detail.
Q Were you able to make any observations that from Amtsgruppe D, or any office within the Office Group, orders were issued to the concentration camps which directly or indirectly were to effect the extermination of inmates?
A No.
Q Were any orders issued which demanded that the inmates should be treated humanely?
AAll measures which came to my attention and which dealt with the treatment of inmates aimed at the maintenance of the working potential, using workers, and of course, decent treatment of the inmates was mandatory in that respect.
DR. BELZER: Your Honor -
THE PRESIDENT: Before you request it, yes. We will recess until nine-thirty tomorrow.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 1 July 1947, at 0930 hours.)
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg Germany, on 1 July 1947, 1930-1630, Justice Robert M Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. 2.
Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will show that the defendant Scheide is absent from this session of court upon request of counsel and with leave of the court.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. BELZER:
Q. Witness, yesterday I asked you whether any orders had been issued which improved the treatment of the concentration camp inmates. You answered this question in the affirmative. I now want to ask you what measures were taken in order to maintain the potential working power of the inmates?
A. An order was issued that only healthy inmates should be used for work. Inmates who were sick and who were released from the inmate hospital after having recovered--they were only given light duty, weaving for instance, during the time of their convalesence so that they slowly would become used again to work. The working hours were to correspond to the working hours which were demanded of a German civilian worker. Any work for inmates after their return from a working detail was fundamentally prohibited. Skilled workers were only to be used in their special fields, and they were to remain at their places of work once their had been assigned such work. I know that Maurer, the Chief of Office D-II, placed particular emphasis on clean and well ventilated accommodations. I can recall a case when he found that the inmates were not billeted properly.
He then called the owner of the firm to Berlin and he ordered him in a very short time limit to establish a barracks where the inmates could be accommodated properly. For this measure, additional guards were needed and there was a big shortage of guard personnel at that time. In spite of this, however, the execution of this measure was demanded.
If it was customary in the plant that the firm had to furnish protective clothing to their civilian workers, then they had to provide this protective clothing also for the prisoners. I have already stated before that 90 per cent of all inmates received the heavy workers' ration. They even received that additional ration if the prerequisites were not given for that.
There was an order according to which the morning and evening roll-calls fundamentally should not exceed the time limit of ten minutes.
In the year 1942, the State carried out a collection of textiles and shoes. That is to say, the German population was requested to contribute shoes and clothing and to turn then over in order to alleviate the shortage of materials. At the time, a member of the Shoe-Group appeared at Oranienburg. That was a Reich agency which had to supply the population with shoes. He told us that the collection of shoes which originally had been estimated to bring in 3 million pairs of shoes actually had resulted in 12 million shoes being turned in. He requested that these shoes should be taken apart by the inmates in the concentration camp and then they should be turned over to the various factories in order to produce glue fertilizer, clothes and so on.
At the time we assured then that we would use inmates for this sort of work and at the same time we made the reservation that shoes which still could be worn could be purchased by us so that they could be given to the inmates.
When I entered the office D-II, so-called transports detachments existed in the concentration camps. Vehicles with rubber tires were drawn by the inmates. At the time it was immediately ordered that horses should be procured to do this work. Later on, these horses were actually procured and they drew these vehicles fron that time on. Inmates were not used for that purpose any more.
I know that, beyond that, sports were carried on in the concentration camps and that movie houses were located in then. They were for the benefit of the inmates.
I request the Tribunal to permit me to quote briefly from the books of former concentration camp inmates. I want to quote two places which refer to these measures. The former inmate, Gross, in his book, "Two Thousand Days in Dachau"-- makes the following statement on page 217, and I quote:
"From time to time we actually have a holiday crowd on a certain street in the camp, especially when, after roll call, thousands of people return to their barracks, or when they rush to the football match or *** the concert. They always carry their little folding chairs along. What a change has occurred now when compared to the time before. Two years ago we laughed at the rumor that football, thearer and movie facilities were to be installed. Today these facilities have become part of the life in the camp as formerly the hanging."
The former inmate, Weissruettel states in his book, "Night and Fog", Nacht und Nebel: "The Sundays and off duty hours now were not as cheerless anymore as they had been before. Daily only one roll call took place. In the spacious drying barrack of the laundry a theater had been installed." And he goes on with some further statements.
In this connection I want to refer briefly to a letter which came into my hands accidentally. This was a letter of the plant foreman of the firm Rheinmetall at Berlin. The firm Rheinmetall complained in this letter that a foreign worker who had been working in this plant and who had been sent to the concentration camp Sachsenhausen by the Gestapo because he refused to work, returned again after two months and then he again refused a work which had been assigned to him. At that occasion the worker had stated that he preferred to return to the concentration camp rather than work with the firm Rheinmetall. He stated that he had been treated pretty well in the concentration camp.
The firm sent this letter as a complaint. I had this letter in my files. Unfortunately it was burned when we escaped from Rostock.
Q. Witness, in order to clarify the matter the innate Gross wrote about the camp at Dachau?
A. Yes, he referred to the camp Dachau.
Q. And Weissruettel?
A. He referred to the concentration camp Sachsenhausen.
Q. From the testimony of the witness Kogon I can recall in particular that he also mentioned the fact that inmates had to perform work while double timing; that is to say, they had to carry stones and so on. Do you know anything about that?
A. Yes, that was also customary in the concentration camp Sachsenhausen. An order existed there by the camp commander Loritz, according to which workers who did not work or did not have to carry any objects were allowed to move on the double only. This was already fundamentally prohibited in May, 1942.
Q. Do you know anything about orders which concerned supplemental clothing for the inmates?
A. Yes, I know that a competition took place where suggestions were to be submitted, according to which the clothing for the inmates could be improved with the available raw materials. I do not know the results, but I assume that this matter was handled by Office D-4.
Q. Do you know anything about the fact how the execution of these orders was supervised, and can you tell me what happened to the camp commanders who violated these orders? What kind of action was taken against them?
A. Yes, The first disciplinary measure was taken against the camp commander of Sachsenhausen, Loritz. The director in charge of the training school for inmate roofers reported at the time that two roofer apprentices had not appeared for work and that they allegedly were sick.
However, it had been pointed out to him by other inmates that Loritz wanted these inmates to work for him, for his own purposes, and that he had given them some other work. At the time I was ordered to investigate the matter. That is exactly what I did. I don't want to bore this Tribunal by giving a detailed account of what steps were taken at the time. In any case the result of the investigation was that it was determined that Loritz employed a detachment of inmates who, in the list were shown as being sick; that he used them in order to build a poultry farm and a fishing pond. Beyond that he had an inmate detachment of his own loaned to a friend of his in order to establish a big bakery in Augsburg, and he himself had a house built for his own use at the Wolfgang Lake. Beyond that he had *** black market shops for his own requirements within the camp itself. Loritz and Biokowski, who at that time was the commander of Dachau and who was connected with the matter at Augsburg, and several other commanders were relieved of their assignments.
Q. Do you know whether the concentration camp inmates had been insured against accidents as far as they were working in the industries?
A. Yes, all concentration camp inmates had accident insurance. Every accident had to be recorded in the files and the documents had to be sent to the RSHA, Reichs Security Main Office. From that agency all the further negotiations were carried on. The whole procedure was based on legal regulations as is also mentioned in Document NO-3654, Exhibit 557.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you mean to say that if a Polish Jew was injured while working for DEST, that he got damages if he was injured?
THE WITNESS.: I have to assume that, your Honor. In the legal provision it states that all concentration camp inmates and all inmates of other state institutions have to be insured against accidents, and nowhere is it stated that any group of persons is to be exempted from that law.
THE PRESIDENT: You don't think that the employer---that would be DEST or the Klinker Works--that they got the damages instead of the man who was hurt?
WITNESS: No, your Honor, that is impossible.
THE PRESIDENT: No, not impossible. You don't know, do you, one way or the other?
THE WITNESS: No, your Honor, I don't know that.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, neither do I.
BY DR. BELTER:
Q. Witness, what do you know about measures to supplement the food of the inmates?
A. I know that the concentration camps were ordered during the summertime to collect mushrooms, berries and wild vegetables and that Jehova's Witnesses who were inmates were to be used for that purpose. There was also an order that all the bare spaces in the concentration camps were to be used for the growing of vegetables, to be used as food for the inmates. As far as I know, in the post exchanges in the camps, groceries could also be purchased.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. What would they be purchased with -- the wages of the inmates?
A. Well, they could buy goods in the post exchanges.
Q. What would they use for money?
A. The inmates, after all, received certain working bonuses in camp money, so to speak.
Q. And those were the only people who could buy at the post exchanges, the people who by working harder than the others got coupons or bonuses?
A. Your Honor, may I correct that the working bonuses were not paid only to inmates who did more work than others, but they were paid for all the work that was done. I shall refer to the system of bonuses a little later, Your Honor. May I ask you to put aside this subject until that time?
DR. BELZER: I am just about to ask this question, Your Honor.
BY DR. BELZER:
Q. Witness, the former inmate who has testified here as a witness, the writer, Eugene Kogon, states in his book "The SS State" on page 69: "Probably with a reasonable working system, if it had been carried on a humane basis, twice or three times the amount of work could have been carried out with one fifth the number of workers that was actually used for this work."
I now want to ask you, witness, whether there was an inducement for inmates to work at all, which Kogon missed, and what did this inducement consist of?
A. This inducement did exist. It consisted mainly of the working bonuses and a special reward for suggestions for improvements with regard to the plants, and it could result in the release of an inmate from the concentration camp.
Q. Please give us a short description of the bonuses.
A. From my knowledge and from my activity with the DEST I can state on this subject that the inmates originally received cigarettes and additional food. From the beginning of 1942 on they received cash funds. The plant manager had to pay this money to the inmates in the presence of the commander. This procedure was very complicated, and a so-called payroll was worked out. That is to say, the inmate received only a small paper script, and he could exchange that at the inmate finance office against standard currency. I know from activity with Office D-II that the working bonuses were introduced and that for these bonuses the inmate could make purchases in the post exchange. Originally it had been intended to pay these bonuses in cash. However, as far as I can recall, Bluecks refused to comply with this measure. He asked that camp scrip be introduced, so that it would become more difficult for inmates to escape and to make it impossible for the inmates to carry on black market deals with civilians and others for tobacco goods.
The principle of these bonuses was approximately the following: The firm had to pay a certain sum to the Reich. That is, it had to pay the sum which corresponded to the expenses which the Reich had for the inmates. However, above that, it was to have payrools, and it was to figure out the pay which was due to the inmates. The difference between the payment to the Reich and wages which the inmates had earned was to be paid to the inmates themselves.
Especially with regard to Kogon's opinion, I would like to quote from the book of Weissruettel briefly, and I want to give the opinion of Weissruettel about these things. In his book he states, on Page 121:
"Toward the end of the year 1943 the agency and the labor assignment system which in the meantime had become an extensive and efficient agency, developed working coupons. They were issued to the inmates, and they were worth a maximum of RM 40. They were issued monthly. Of course, this system offered an inducement to the inmates that could not be under-estimated. Even if the amount did not correspond at all to the achievement, the conditions under which we had to live still induced us to try to obtain these coupons, in particular since we were able to buy cigarettes only by means of these coupons. Now, we could also get some malt beer that was free of alcohol and which tasted better than the bitter camp coffee, and in many of us it awakened the illusion of a certain luxury. With these coupons we were also able to do without money orders from home. If we consider all these improvements, one might think that suddenly humanity had opened its gate to us in order to compensate us with a flood of good deeds for everything that we had suffered in the past."
He then goes on to say, on Page 132:
"With the exception of food, all objects which were sold here came from the booty stocks of the SS, mainly the cigarettes and tobacco, and there were usually very large amounts on hand."
Q. Witness, you have already answered one question. You have already stated in answering a question by the President that the bonuses were not paid only because inmates worked more than some of the other inmates, but for good work.
A. Beyond that, they were also issued to the inmates as a reward for suggestions that the inmates made for improvements in the plants. In this connection, I would also like to state that the camps had to submit a report every month on just how many bonuses the firms had paid to the inmates.
These figures were handled by the Office D-II-/3 , and they were submitted constantly to the office chief. I know that initially Maurer very often brought them to the commanders and asked them to carry on negotiations with the firms so that these bonuses would be increased.
Q. Witness, the President of this Court has been justified in asking you a certain question. I want you to clarify it now. Was the issuance of bonuses limited to the inmates who worked in the industries, or were coupons also issued to inmates who worked only in the camps proper?
A. It was stated explicitly that all the inmates were to receive the bonus coupons. The inmates who were working in the camps received these bonuses from the Reich Treasury. Responsible for the expenditure here was the administrative officer of that particular concentration camp.
Q. According to what you heard, what was the participation of the inmates in the submission of suggestions for improving conditions?
A. The request for the submission of suggestions for improvements in the plants originated in a measure that was ordered by the Reich Government, according to which all workers in the plants were requested to pass on such requests and suggestions to their plant managers; that is to say, suggestions in which the production methods could be simplified or improved.
This measure also was extended to the inmates and I know that the inmates participated in this to a very large extent. We only received suggestions for improvements which could not be utilized in the plant where the inmate was working, and we then would pass them on to the Speer Ministry, who would pass it on to the Luftwaffe, the Army or the Navy. That depended on the field of work to which this suggestion for improvement referred.
The Prosecution has presented a document here, it is Document 1584-PS. It is Exhibit 68 in Document Book 3. This letter is written by Pohl, addressed to Himmler, and it states in the Heinkel Works alone up to now two hundred inmates have submitted suggestions for improvements. It also states that the number of inmates there is to be increased to 6,000. That is to say the percentage of the inmates who participated in the suggestions was very considerable.
Q Of what did the reward consist which was given for production improvement suggestions?
A Here the reward also consisted in the payment of certain bonus coupons, and the Speer Ministry generally had worked out a list according to the height of the amounts to be paid, and according to which the suggestions could be evaluated. Then the inmates could be made foremen, or they could be suggested for release.
Q Did any cases come to your attention where in industrial plants recommendations were made for the release of inmates who were working there? You have already made a statement yesterday about the release of inmates from the DEST.
A I know for certain from the Heinkel Works that in a very large number of cases they recommended the release of inmates who had submitted suggestions for improvement. I also know that these releases actually were carried out.
Q How did the Office D-II deal with these requests for releases made by the firms?
A The Office D-II officially had nothing to do with these requests for releases. However, I know from conversations with Maurer that Maurer always pointed out this possibility to the firms.
Q Beyond that, and apart from other suggestions, did the Office D-II recommend the release of inmates?
A The RSHA, the Reich Security Main Office, was exclusively competent for the release of inmates. The Office D-II, therefore, whenever such a matter was submitted to it, had to get the approval from the RSHA, and had to make its application to the RSHA just like any other agency. I know that in May or June of 1942 Maurer requested a list from some camps of inmates who had already been in a concentration camp for quite a while, and that list was compiled only of political inmates. He then submitted these lists to Gluecks, and he requested Gluecks to make a request to the RSHA for the release of these inmates, because it was intended to use these people as civilian workers in economic plants. We took this way because it was know that, for example, the Gestapo Agency at Nuernberg, by order of Streicher, fundamentally refused to have Communists released. Therefore we had to use these inmates in M-plants, that is to say, in plants which were located outside of the Gestapo District of Nuernberg. The RSHA approved these requests at the time, and a large number of inmates were consequently released.
Q In order to clarify the testimony of the Witness Kogon, did the Office D-II have the right to object to requests for releases which came from another agency? In other words, could the Office D-II prevent the release of inmates?
A No, as far as I know the correspondence went directly from the RSHA to the camps. It went to the political departments there where a man from the RSHA was stationed. The Office D-II did not know anything about this whole procedure. It did not receive any documents about any inmates so that it could not have raised any objections.
Q With regard to the benefits to inmates which you have just mentioned, were certain groups of inmates excluded from that, for example, Jewish inmates?
A No, I have already stated that originally the order stated that all initiates should enjoy the benefits of these bonuses. When I visited the watch repair shop at the camp in Sachsenhausen, the man in charge of that repair shop told me at the time that the administrative officer of the camp Sachsenhausen was refusing to pay bonuses to the Jewish inmates. I immediately reported this matter to Maurer. Maurer issued an order which was addressed to all camps, and in that order it was stated once more fundamentally that all inmates, including Jewish inmates, were to receive these working bonuses. The administrative officer of Sachsenhausen at that time was reprimanded.
The Prosecution has presented a document here; it is NO-1247, Exhibit 349, in Document Book 12. It is an order by Kaltenbrunner according to which in the east Jews should only be given manual work. I would like to state here that this order by Kaltenbrunner was not complied with, but that the Jews also were workers for us, and we used them in accordance with their professional skills. We used them as physicians, as clerks, or as skilled craftsmen.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Could you ignore -
DR. BELZER: Witness -
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Could you ignore an order issued by Kaltenbrunner?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, this letter was not an explicit order. It is a notification to all authorities where he announces certain bad conditions in existence, and where he tells them that such and such a procedure is to be followed.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I take it then that you were allowed a certain latitude of action in your administration of the camps? Do you understand that? You were allowed a certain liberty that you were not required to follow literally suggestions made, or even recommendations or perhaps orders coming from a higher level.