Q. Will you take a look at C-3? Will you tell us what contacts this branch had with the concentration camps? This concerned engineering, building, irrigation and drainage, engineering and electrical engineering, and survey.
A. The possibility exists ---
Q. But you can't say what that connection was?
A. No, I am unable to make any statements. I had no point of contact with C.3.
Q. What about C-4? Did it have any contact with the concentration camp?
A. I don't believe so because anything connected with artistic matters will hardly touch on concentration camps.
Q. And C-5? This is construction supervision, budget and cost of construction, construction allocation of labor ... Does this have anything to do with concentration camps?
A. Whether it was connected with concentration camps directly I cannot see from the chart. The department C-5-4-B, it says, "Inmates and building brigade." There must have been some kind of contact.
Q. This is the first time you ever saw that?
A. What did you assume that this meant when you saw it in your office?
A. If you please, Sir, I do not know whether I looked at these masses of paper which came from Kammler; unless I am very much mistaken, I took the whole document and put it right at the bottom of my drawer, because it was simply superfluous paper.
Q. And it is your belief, is it-- it is your statement is it, that you never looked at the whole plan for Amtsgruppe C?
A. I don't believe I did, I only looked at my Main Department or my office.
Q. Now, will you look at the last part of the document, Construction Inspectorates. Tell us what this was and where it fitted into the rest of the organization. Is this under your office? It comes right after C-VI. You see?
A. Directly behind my office?
Q. Yes.
A. You mean page 39?
Q. Page 36 of the original, the very last part of the document.
A. 39 of the German text?
Q. It must be on about page 104 of the German text. Is this a part of your office?
A. This is my main Department C-VI/3, my Auditing Department and that Auditing Department within my agency has been distributed to the various fields so that people knew to what spheres they were responsible. I would like to point out that distribution actually was never translated into practice and never had anything to do actually with the building inspectorates.
Q. Well, did you draw up this part of the chart that deals with C-VI?
A. Yes, I drew that up.
Q. Didn't you have any interest to see that Kammler -whether Kammler supported your proposal in the final table of organization or departed from it?
A. I know nothing of proposals.
Q. You said that you never had seen the organizational chart. I am asking you after you drew up this part of the plan, didn't you have any interest to see if Kammler approved it?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, as I remember I was asked by Kammler at that time to organize my office in such a way as we see it here now. It may well be that this proposal was passed on to me by Kammler's office and I merely added the people to it. In actual effect, this plan was never translated into practice in this form for my office, because the people mentioned thereon -
Q. Whether or not it was translated into practice, it was approved by Kammler. I am asking you if you still stand on your statement that you never saw this document in the office, never read it?
A. I said before that I assume that I studied everything that concerned my office, but the other offices didn't interest me at all.
Q. Now I want to ask you about the procedure when requests were submitted to you through Office C-VI/1 for funds to carry out maintenance in the concentration camps. You told the court yesterday that this was submitted in a lump sum and was not broken down. I am asking you if it wasn't true that in many instances these figures were broken down and requests were made for maintenance of a concentration camp wall and so forth. Isn't true that the requisition or request from the concentration camp sometimes, if not always, showed the purpose for which the money was to be used?
A. I cannot recall anything of the sort. The things which came in had been broken down first. I don't exclude the possibility, but speaking generally allocations were made in the form of lump sums.
Q. Don't you remember at any time getting a requisition during the course of the year, not for the yearly period, by supplemental requests for funds for construction in camps that showed what the purpose of the funds were to be used for?
A. I cannot recall any detail there. It is, of course, possible that some agencies submitted a single individual request and not ask for any credit allocation, but, as I mentioned before, requests of this sort were no longer necessary, because the agencies themselves were quite competent to do it on their own.
Q. Witness, except for the early period when you were visiting Dachau, I believe you said '36, '37, is that the only time you ever visited Dachau concentration camp?
A. I do not remember that after that time I went to Dachau concentration camp. I went, of course, quite often to the garrison office of Dachau, but that had nothing to do with the concentration camp. It was completely separate from it.
Q. When you went to the garrison you saw inmates working, did you not, outside the main part of the camp?
A. Yes, sometimes I saw them.
Q. And how many times did you visit the concentration camp at Sachsenhausen?
A. I said before I went to the Commandant's office quite often for personal reasons, but the actual concentration camp, Sachsenhausen, the protective custody camp, I never visited once.
Q. When you visited the Commandant's office you saw the inmates working outside the camp, didn't you?
A. I did not notice people doing my work. I don't think work was done; in the office perhaps I saw them in the office.
Q. You didn't see any on outside work details around Sachsenhausen Camp, the outer camp?
A. Outside? Oh yes. In the whole area Oranienburg I saw inmates working. I said so before.
Q. And Buchenwald -- how many times did you visit that camp?
A. The concentration camp I did not visit. Again I went to the Commandant's office and I believe I said before I visited a friend of mine who was with an anti-aircraft unit in Buchenwald. I did not enter the actual concentration camp.
Q. Is that the only time you ever went to Buchenwald?
A. I don't recall another visit.
Q. What date was that?
A. I believe that was in 1940 or 1941.
Q. You saw inmates working there when you visited?
A. I believe so.
Q. How often did you visit Flossenburg concentration camp?
A. I never visited Flossenbuerg.
Q. Were you ever in the area, in the outer part of the camp?
A. I don't recall anything of the sort.
Q. Are you certain, or are you saying you just don't remember?
A. I don't believe that I went to Flossenbuerg ever.
Q. How many times did you visit the camp at Ravensbrueck?
A. I didn't visit the concentration camp itself. I believe I once went to the clothing depot on which occasion I talked to Bester the construction manager. That is at least how I remember it. I might also have spoken to his successor.
Q. You told us this morning that you were there several times. Didn't you talk to Bester only once?
A. I don't believe so. I, of course, made many trips. Whether I went there frequently or not I am unable to say today.
Q. You saw inmates when you went there? You saw them working?
A. I cannot recall anything -- whether I saw anybody in the outside camp.
Q. Did you ever visit Mauthausen?
A. No, I never inspected Mauthausen.
Q. Were you ever there in the outer area of the camp?
A. I once went to Linz.
Q. But you said this morning you had no interest whatever in Linz.
A. I went to Linz once, I believe, in 1942, because of the bills of the Death Head Unit barracks there and that barrack was no longer used by the Death Head Units, but it was sold later to the Reichsbank.
Q. Witness, when you made the visits to these camps that we have been talking about you usually went on business, didn't you, that had something to do with your office affairs?
A. Yes.
Q. How often did you visit Auschwitz?
A. I went to Auschwitz once, as I said in my affidavit.
Q. That's the only time?
A. Yes.
Q. And what date was that?
A. I mentioned this yesterday. I am not quite clear if it was in 1943 or 1944.
Q. And what was your business in Auschwitz?
A. I had to look into the land business of the bakers shop and with the large armament plant.
Q. You saw inmates working when you were there?
A. I am not sure about the armament plant. Women were there who were all wearing long gray overcoats, so-called overalls. Whether they were inmates I am unable to say with certainty. One could not see from their appearance whether they were or not.
Q. You didn't see any inmates at all, anybody that you could be sure was an inmate, when you were in Auschwitz?
A. When I was there I do not remember that in the outside area inmates were working. The two plants were on the fringes of the whole complex.
Q. Did you see anyone in inmate clothing around Auschwitz, anyone that you assumed to be an inmate?
A. I don't recall any such occurrence.
Q. How often did you visit Neuengamme?
A. I was never in Neuengamme.
Q. Were you ever in the area; I mean the outer camp?
A. No, I don't remember having been there.
Q. What about Stutthof? How many times were you there?
A. I never went to stutthof.
Q. Did you ever visit Natzweiler?
A. No.
Q. Gross-Rosen?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever visit the camps or labor camps at Lublin?
A. No, I don't recall doing so.
Q. Did you ever go to Lublin?
A. I went to Lublin once, yes. With the garrison administration there we were discussing construction matters for the Waffen SS, the troops. This was in 1940 or 1941.
Q. You didn't see any inmate labor when you were there, laborers?
A. No, I didn't see anything of the sort.
Q. Did you ever visit Nordhausen?
A. No, I heard that name here for the first time.
Q. Did you ever go to Bergen-Belsen?
A. No.
Q. You knew, didn't you, Witness, from having seen these inmate laborers that there were a good many foreigners among them, non-Germans?
A. I had no opportunity for making such discoveries.
Q. You had no idea that any of these inmates that you saw were nonGermans? It never occurred to you?
A. You could not see by their appearance that they were non-Germans, and I did not talk to them.
THE PRESIDENT: Did they all look like Germans?
A. Their appearance, yes.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Did you know from any other source that foreigners were in the concentration camps, non-German nationals?
A. I did not work on the concentration camp problems nor on the inmates. I therefore took no interest in what sort of inmates would be in concentration camps.
Q. I don't mean just from official sources; I mean from the newspapers and from private conversations. You had no information whatsoever that there were any non-German nationals in German concentration camps?
A. No, I knew nothing about it.
Q. You didn't know that Jews were in concentration camps?
A. I assume that Jews were in concentration camps, but they were subject to the same laws when they had offended politically or against the laws of the state. I was unable to reach any other conclusions.
Q. You thought they were all German Jews? Is that right?
A. I mentioned before that I did not look at them so carefully. I wasn't interested.
Q. Did you know that prisoners of war were in concentration camps?
A. No, I did not know that.
Q. You knew, did you not, that the construction that was carried out by Amtsgruppe C in the concentration camps used inmate labor?
A. I was in a position to assume that, Yes.
Q. You knew that the industries in Amtsgruppe W used inmate labor?
A. I was not informed about that, as to what type of labor was used for their enterprises.
Q. You want us to believe that you did not know that Amtsgruppe W used concentration camp labor? Where did you think these industries were located? Didn't you know from the organization plan that they were located right in the concentration camps? You didn't know that?
Q. I could reach that assumption but I did not know anything about the allocation of inmate labor.
BY THE PRESIDENT: EXAMINATION
Q. That isn't what the question was; and you told us plainly yesterday that you did know that the W industries used prison labor, used concentration camp labor.
A. If your Honor please, I believe what I said was that Office Group C used labor, inmate labor; but I do not remember saying one word about W yesterday. W was not mentioned before.
Q. Do you remember Mr. Robbins asking you the same question--you knew that the industries were located right in the concentration camps? Don't you remember that?
A. I am afraid I didn't understand the question, your Honor.
Q. Yesterday Mr. Robbins asked you, didn't you know that many of the W industries were located right in the concentration camps? And you said, "Yes," didn't you?
MR. ROBBINS: I'm afraid, sir, that was the witness Kiefer.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I remember the question. Was it another witness?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, I believe it was.
THE PRESIDENT: For the first time in my life I'm wrong.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. When the Amtsgruppe D was incorporated into the WVHA, you knew the general purpose of the Amtsgruppe, did you not?
A. What I knew was that Office Group D was dealing with concentration camp matters. Any details of that sphere of work were unknown to me.
Q. Did you know that Amtsgruppe D allocated labor to various private and governmental industries?
A. Yes, that was known to me, at least from hearsay. I was not connected personally with it.
Q. You also knew it from official sources? It was in the organization plan; it was an office for labor allocation? Or did you never look at the organization plan for the WVHA?
A. The organizational table did not tell me that inmates were lent to industries. They could just as easily work in their own enterprises, although a department for allocation of labor was there.
Q. I said government industries and private industries. Is it your testimony, Witness, that you never at any time during the war heard that anyone was mistreated in a concentration camp? Is that what I understood from your testimony yesterday?
A. No such case became known to me.
Q. You never heard anything about anyone being killed in a concentration camp?
A. No.
Q. You never heard about anyone being underfed or undernourished in a concentration camp?
THE PRESIDENT: That has already been covered, Mr. Robbins.
MR. ROBBINS: I don't believe I've asked this witness.
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO): You didn't, but his own counsel asked him if he knew of any mistreatment of any kind in the concentration camps; and he said no.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Was it your assumption that everyone in concentration camps were criminals and had been duly tried and placed in a concentration camp after a hearing?
A. I have to assume that. I was unable to assume that any other procedure was followed. Of course, I didn't know the tactics of the Gestapo and its usages; but I assumed that they did everything in a proper manner when they had found facts and established guilt. I was unable to assume anything else.
Q. And you never heard that anyone was ever put in a concentration camp unjustly?
A. No such cases became known to me.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further examination by defense counsel?
DR. VON STEIN: If the Tribunal please, I should like to put several questions to the witness; but first I want to know whether the prosecution intends to use Document NO-4007 as an exhibit. If they do not wish to do so, no further questions would be necessary.
MR. ROBBINS: I'm very sorry, I intended to mark NO-4007 for identification as Exhibit Number 572 and offer it at a subsequent time for the purpose of contradicting and impeaching the witness. I should also like to mark for identification an affidavit of Bester and mark it for identification as Exhibit 573. It is Document NO-4008. I should like to offer it at a subsequent time for contradicting and impeaching the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: That hasn't been distributed, has it?
MR. ROBBINS: No, it hasn't, but I'll distribute it.
DR. VON STEIN: If the Tribunal please, I am unable to do anything about these two affidavits. I did not have an opportunity to see my client about this. I therefore ventured to remark before that I might possibly request the Court to have the witness cross examined here. I assume that one talk with my client tonight would be sufficient; and it would therefore be possible tomorrow to cross examine that witness.
But if the Court should be of the opinion that it would be sufficient to obtain only an affidavit from that witness and submit it, this would be agreeable to me, too.
THE PRESIDENT: You can do either one that you like and any time that you like. After these exhibits have been offered in evidence if you then want to recall your client to contradict the affidavits, you may do so, even two weeks from today.
DR. VON STEIN: All right.
MR. ROBBINS: As I stated this morning I am eager to have this witness Karl called for cross examination. Whether or not the prosecution can agree to having an affidavit submitted or not I think is something I will have to consider further. If he is going to be impeached, I think perhaps the best way to do would be to have him called and have him testify here under oath. But perhaps we can meet that question when it arises.
THE PRESIDENT: Until defense counsel has read these affidavits and consulted with his client, he doesn't know whether he wishes to impeach them. He may accept them without impeachment. So we'll have to cross the bridge when we get to it.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION
DR. MAYER: I am representing Dr. Stakelberg for the defendant Fanslau. Witness, during your cross examination a certain amount of confusion has arisen of a general nature which I wish to clear up. You told us as far as the Waffen-SS was concerned about 1936 to the end of the war, do you by using the expression "Waffen-SS" means the Verfuegungstruppe for special tasks or anything else?
A. Whenever I used the term "Waffen-SS2 it is correct only as from 1940. Before then it was the Verfuegungstruppe, the special task unit, and there again I would like to make the distinction that after 1942 the Waffen-SS in the Main Operational Office had nothing to do with the Waffen SS, which is known generally as the Waffen-SS and which were, among other things, in charge of the concentration camps.
Q. Witness, at that time, that is, from 1936 onward, was there conscription in Germany?
A. When conscription started I do not remember.
Q. Was the special task unit, the Vergungstruppe, regarded as a purely military unit and was service in the troop regarded as military service?
A. Service in the military task unit was a complete military service. You had to stay there for eight years if you wanted to be a NCO and as an officer you had to stay there until you were 45 years of age.
Q. A final question. Were only members of the general, the Allgemeine SS before that?
A. I believe that most of the members of the special task units had not been members of the Allgemeine-SS before. They were recruited on a voluntary basis that obligated themselves to do service voluntarily with the special task unit and therefore do their military service.
Q. No further questions.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN: Dr. Froeschmann for Mummenthey. Witness from your redirect examination one statement you made wasn't quite clear to me. Despite the questions put to you by the President or perhaps because of that question.
Did I understand you to say that in your opinion in the concentration camps there were no enterprises of Office Group C or D?
A I know nothing of enterprises of Office Group C. I know nothing about Office Group C.
Q Therefore, you only know about enterprises of Office Group D?
A. Yes, I said just now I knew nothing about enterprises of Office Group.
Q. But you did not know that Office Group W, to be more precise, Dest, had enterprises of some sort in the concentration camps?
A. Within the concentration camps?
Q. Did you not understand my question? Let me ask you again, did you or did you not know that the W enterprises, the Amtsgruppe W, the Office Group W and more particular Dest the manager of which Nummentey was, had enterprises within the concentration camps?
A. What I knew was that these enterprises were located near concentration camps.
Q. I would like you to give me a precise statement, whether or not you knew that Dest had enterprises in concentration camps? Yes or No?
A. I do not know anything about this.
Q. Thank you very much, no further questions.
BY DR. MAYER:
Q. Mayer for the defendant Keifer. If the Tribunal please, about Exhibit 572 which is Karl's exhibit, I would like to make a brief statement. I wish to correct a misprint which I want to point out in order to be on the safe side. In paragraph 5 reference is made to the Office II-C, in the Main Department Budget and Building. That might lead to a confusion of Office C-II which later was formed in the WVHA and I would therefore like to correct that; II-c is what it should be such as becomes clear from table III. It should be Roman II, small letter c. On page 6 under paragraph 21, it's correctly stated there. It says Roman II-6 but unhappily it isn't a small letter. It should be a lower capital also in that paragraph. I only wish to state there to avoid a confusion with Office C-II to be on the safe side.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: That's on page 5.
DR. MAYER: That was paragraph 21, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: It seems to be right A small "C".
MR. ROBBINS: It's a large "C" in the German I see here and counsel is correct. It should be Roman II, small "c" in both places.
JUDGE MUSMANO: Yes. That isn't pertinent to the record.
MR. ROBBINS: The other place is in Paragraph 5. I would just like to clear up point with the witness if I might. I still don't understand what your testimony is. Witness, did you or did you not know that inmates were used in the industries?
A From my own observation I was unable to find out whether inmates were used in the enterprises. I had a certain amount of knowledge from hearsay and nothing else.
MR. ROBBINS: And what was the knowledge? That they were used or they were not used?
A For what purpose they were there should be quite obvious. To do some work.
MR. ROBBINS: But You knew that inmate labor was used in the industries?
A I was in a position to assume that.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further questions from the defense? If not the court will be in recess and during the recess the marshall will remove this witness from the witness box and bring the next witness to the witness box.
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal will recess for 15 minutes.
(a recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
WOLFGANG GROSCH, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE INTERPRETER: Your Honor, this oath should be repeated, please, because the witness did not repeat it correctly.
THE PRESIDENT: Repeat it again, please, and listen carefully.
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: Be seated, please.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Your Honor, Dr. Froeschmann for Mummenthey.
Your Honor, may I submit a request to the Tribunal before I start, or somebody else starts examining the witness? What I have to say refers to a procedure particularly in the defense of Mumenthey. Your Honor, on the 26th of May I submitted a request for nine witnesses for the Defendant Mumenthey, and that on a special form which was prescribed by the Tribunal. On the 23rd of June I have found out that on the part of the Prosecution no position has been taken up with reference to the witnesses which I have applied for, and today I found out that nothing has been done with reference to my request; that my requests have not as yet been submitted to the Tribunal, so that four weeks have actually elapsed without my having succeeded in hearing anything about those witnesses.
I also applied for three or four witnesses to be examined in the jail here, and they are in jail now. A little while ago, or a few days ago it has been decided that the examination of such witnesses has to be announced 72 hours before they are interrogated, and that by using a special form.
THE PRESIDENT: 48 hours.
DR. FROESCHMANN: 72 hours, your Honor, three days. Up to the present moment I have not succeeded in examining these witnesses, although they are in jail here, because the Prosecution did not give me the opportunity to examine these witnesses. Unfortunately, the defense of Mumenthey is almost made impossible for me, and I would appreciate it if this Tribunal would give me its kind support by asking the Prosecution to enable me to examine those witnesses as soon as possible. That is all I have to say to the Tribunal.
MR. ROBBINS: Your Honor, I am sorry but this is the first time that I have heard about this. I don't believe that the requests have reached me as I always act on them immediately. And I never, as I recall it, objected to but two, and I don't think they concerned Mummenthey. Immediately after the session I am sure we can agree on the witnesses. I don't know who they are but I can't imagine that we will have any objections.
THE PRESIDENT: Apparently the applications have got sidetracked. I know they have not come to the Presiding Judge for approval.
Mr. Robbins, you will find out about it after the session today?
MR. ROBBINS: I suggest to Defense Counsel that perhaps they should wait two or three weeks to hear about it; if they don't get an answer within two or three days they should follow it up.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, that is shifting-
MR. ROBBINS: It may very well be the fault of the Defense Information; it may be our fault, I don't know. Lots of things get lost in the building.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we do know that the Defense Counsel doesn't lose them, so it is up to somebody else to find out where they are.
All right.
DR. STEIN: May I continue?
THE PRESIDENT: Please do.
BY DR. STEIN: DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q. Witness, I have to draw your attention again to the fact that you are under oath here and that you are only to state facts to this tribunal, facts of which you know for sure. If you don't know those things you can state here for sure, then you should state that explicitly by saying that it is just an assumption on your part, and give us the reasons why you don't know for sure so that the Tribunal is in a position to examine whether or not you are right.
First of all, give me your full name.
A. Wolfgang Grosch.
Q. When were you born?
A. On the 15th of September-
Q. Witness, you gave us two affidavits: one affidavit on the 21st of February, 1947, and an additional affidavit on the 5th of March, 1947. Do you recall that? Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you still remember the contents of these two affidavits?
A. Yes.
Q. In spite of that I shall show you the most important point, and in particular only those points in which I am interested as the Defense counsel for Eirenschmalz. The question is, we have two periods we have to regard here. First of all, the period of time until the end of 1940, and then the period of time from the first of February, 1942; that is after the WVHA was established. You gave the following statements with reference to those periods of time. Point No. 1: Eirenschmalz was in the administrative office SS. You stated here that Eirenschmalz was in charge of the entire construction departments, and that his position was similar to that of Kammler's. First of all, I would like to ask you, witness, how do you know, and how can you gain an insight into the activities of Eirenschmalz at the time?
A. I gained this knowledge from Unter- or Obersturmfuehrer Reidl. That was during the time '38 or '39. He told me those things orally.
Q. However, from your own knowledge you can't tell us anything, can you?
A. No.
Q. You wish to say that you know that from a third party, and only from hearsay?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were you at the time -- '38 or '39?