Q You can't add anything to what you have already said? Now, will you look at Paragraph 15 of the affidavit of NO-4007? Karl says that it was planned for him to take over Office V V/a from you in the spring of 1938, and he says that you had started introducing him to the heads of construction works of the concentration camps "in order to make us acquainted with the new field of activities." Do you remember doing that?
A I can't recall any such thing. I have already pointed out that with the exception of the construction police at Dachau I had nothing to do with it, not the least to do with concentration camps.
Q Is the statement incorrect? Do you wish to say that it didn't happen, or that you don't remember its happening; that you took him around and introduced him to the construction managers of concentration camps; that you introduced him to Reidl, at that time chief of construction of Buchenwald? Do you recall doing that?
A No, I don't.
Q Do you say you didn't do it or you just don't remember doing it?
A I didn't get that question again.
Q Do you deny doing it, or do you simply state you do not remember?
A No, may I read over again this point Number 18 here?
Q It is the part about your introducing him to people connected with the camp.
DR. VON STEIN: Your Honor, I am under the impression that the defendant Eirenschmalz is not in a position to read the whole document and to work on it in just a short time. If this affidavit is introduced as an exhibit, then I would appreciate it if I could reserve for myself the right either to call Karl here as a witness or then to introduce an additional affidavit by Karl.
MR. ROBBINS: I should like to state that I have only one or two additional questions on the affidavit and I am not asking him about the entire affidavit.
I just want to know if he remembers having introduced Karl to Riedl, and other construction chiefs of the concentration camp. As to Karl's being called here as a witness on cross examination, I should be very happy to have him called for cross examination; and I certainly welcome the opportunity of having that done.
THE PRESIDENT: Is he available?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: If you wish him for cross examination, he can be produced.
DR. VON STEIN: Yes, indeed, your Honor, I'd appreciate it if you could. However, your Honor, I should like to make a further request, that before I cross examine Karl here I should like to talk this thing over a little bit with my client here; and I want to be in a position then to ask the necessary questions of Karl.
THE PRESIDENT: There's no hurry about calling Karl. You may talk to your defendant as long as you like before you call Karl as a witness.
MR. ROBBINS: In our discussion about Karl yesterday I pointed out that he is writing up a complete history of the construction of the SS, the construction departments. He is working on additional affidavits; and as soon as they are ready, I will submit them. I thought that would be the best way to inform the Court and defense counsel of his views because the organization is very complicated and everyone can study the affidavits and then we can cross examine him on it and find out if he sticks to the story.
THE PRESIDENT: Whatever the time is that appears to be best Karl will be here for your examination, whenever you want him.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Have you read the part of the affidavit in Paragraph 18 about Riedl and the other concentration camp construction chiefs?
A I can't recall any such thing. It is absolutely unknown to me.
Q You state that you remember that it didn't happen or that you cannot remember whether it happened?
A I just can't recall all those things. I know nothing about them.
Q Will you turn to Paragraph 28? I believe you have already said that you knew that Karl was head of Construction Inspectorate South and subordinate to Office C V?
A Yes, that is correct. I said so.
Q Now, he says in a subsequent paragraph, 30, that "in this division Office C/6 Eirenschmalz had to approve of all maintenance and repair work for all finished buildings of the SS, such as barracks, concentration camps and schools of the Waffen SS." That's correct, isn't it; that conforms with what you said yesterday, just talking about the first sentence in Paragraph 30?
A I stated yesterday in detail the field of task of the maintenance department there and I have nothing to add really. Karl was the man in charge of everything, and what he did is not known to my agency. According to my opinion it appears in Paragraph 31 that the Construction Inspectorate took over the staff; and as far as providing the funds is concerned, which he took care of, I don't know how he did it; and I didn't really follow the whole matter because I had nothing to do with construction maintenance as of 1944.
Q Do I understand you to say that Paragraph 31 is correct?
A Paragraph 31 -- That is, if the funds were placed at our disposal for C-V for the repair work, I don't know. I presume that this was within the competence of the Construction Inspectorate, because those were sums which did not exceed the RM 100,000 margin.
Q I just have one last question on this affidavit. He says in the last sentence of Paragraph 30, upon his knowledge as Chief of Inspectorate, South, "If a concentration camp wanted to carry out any repair work, the camp office had to request the necessary repairs from Office C-VI in advance for the year and could only carry out the repairs during the current budget year after approval by Office C-VI."
A Those statements made by Karl refer to the situation and to the conditions during peace time. However, I stated yesterday explicitly that during war time there was an open budget in the administrative offices and that the administrative agencies therefore could act according to their own feeling and could carry out maintenance or repair work on those buildings and installations. Furthermore, I pointed out -
Q When you talk about peace time and war time, what years are you referring to? C-VI came into existence in 1942. What years are you talking about?
A Yes, I know that. Karl only speaks about the general procedure. C-VI existed only during war time. Therefore, funds were made available according to the open funds policy. Therefore, they could request all the repair work as it actually occurred, apparently. Part of the administrative leaders, as I pointed out yesterday, even after 1942 wanted to have permission to get from the fund, but I said that they were only a small part of these men and they did not have the right to receive the full funds.
Q Will you look at Table 4, the last chart in this affidavit? Can you confirm the correctness of this organizational chart? You see, he has a breakdown of Reich, South, Munich, Construction Inspectorate, because he was the chief of that office, and under Construction Inspectorate, Reich, South, which he says was subordinate in certain respects to Kiefer in C-II and to Eirenschmalz in C-VI -
A I don't know how the subordination was with reference to Kiefer and to the Construction Inspectorate.
Q Let's disregard that. With regard to the rest of the chart, is this correct?
A The subdivision of the Construction Inspectorate in Central Construction Management -- I can not give you any information about that because I do not know them. My connection with the Construction Inspectorate -- that is to say, my connection between Office VI to the Construction Inspectorate -- dealt only with the preliminary checking of the vouchers on construction. I received the completed vouchers by the Construction Inspectorate. They were sent to me. I audited the accounts. I placed them before the Court of Audits. The Court of Audits rechecked them, so to say, and the account came back to me with the signatures of the Court of Audits, and it went through the same channels back to the Construction Inspectorate. I had no further connection with the Construction Inspectorate. The Construction Inspectorate only received from me those particular orders when there were certain complaints or if changes had to be carried out in a treasury manner in the accounts, and they had to tell me that the corrections had been carried out. That was the entire connection with the Construction Inspectorate.
Q What was the only connection, either directly or indirectly?
A I don't know how you mean that "directly". What do you mean by that?
Q Is that the only connection, either directly or indirectly? Is that the only contact you had?
A I had no further connections with the Construction Inspectorate. However, in any case, I do not remember anything.
Q Did any of the reports or papers of any kind come from the Construction Inspectorate through any of the offices in Office Group C? Any of the other Amts in Amtsgruppe C to you?
A I shall point out that the way these various offices are stated under Amtsgruppe C could possibly lead to mistakes or misunderstandings, because they are really too close to each other. I did not have anything to do with Office I nor with Office II, nor Office III, nor did I have anything to do with Office IV, and as far as Office V is concerned, I had very little to do, if anything.
Q Tell us everything that you had to do with it.
A Sometimes I went to see the people in the raw material department of Office V, and I went to beg them for a little bit of something for one of my stocks. That was my only connection with Office C-V.
Q And are you telling us that you had no connection whatever with Office C-I -- no reports, no papers, nothing from Office C-I came into your hands?
A No, nothing came into my hands from Office C-I. I never went into those years; I did not go into those offices.
Q And that applies to Office C-i, C-II, C-III and C-IV?
A Yes, indeed.
Q But not to C-V?
A I never did go to Office C-V Personally. If I wanted to beg for something, I did it by telephone.
Q And no papers or reports of any kind went from your office to any of the other offices -- the reverse?
A No, I know nothing about it. I can not recall having had any connections with that. My reports from the audits, I mean, were sent to the chief of the office at certain periods of time, and I had nothing else to do with the other office chiefs.
Q That is a side point from the chart. Is the chart correct or not, disregarding the part about Kiefer and C-II?
A I can not take a decided position as to that because this is only a fraction of the entire organizational chart. Here you have the Construction Inspectorates also. However, they have no connection with each other, and they are all on the same line. I really would not like to say anything about this chart.
Q You recall the organization chart of Office C, which is in Document Book 2. Do you happen to have Document Book 2 before you?
A No.
Q Well, I think you remember it. It is NO 1288, and it sets out the subdivisions of your office. Do you recall that there was an Office C-VI-1-A, which was called Construction Maintenance within the range of the Inspectorate Reich, North, and then another one for Reich West, Reich South, Reich East, and the General Government?
A May I ask you to show me the organizational chart?
(Document submitted to the witness)
Q Just look very hurriedly to C-VI-1-A, 1-B, 1-C, and 1-D. These were the offices through which contacted the different Construction Inspectorates; is that right?
A No, that is a mistake. That subdivision applied to my internal authority, as far as the fields of tasks were concerned for the individual collaborators. As for the setting of the borders or margins, I was the one who set them up. As for a connection between my agency with reference to the construction and maintenance with the Construction Inspectorates, there was no such connection.
Q Do you know a person by the name of Otto Bestle, B-E-S-T-L-E?
A Yes, I know the name.
Q You remember that he was subordinated to Karl, do you not, in Dachau?
A I can not tell you for sure whether he was subordinated to Karl.
Q Do you know that he was the foreman at the Dachau garrison from 1933 to 1941? You should remember that. With certain interruptions.
A What the tasks were that he dealt with in Dachau I no longer recall.
Q Do you know that he was in 1941 chief of construction at Ravensbruck and held that position until 1944, in April?
A. Yes, I know that Bestle was in Ravensbruck as construction manager. However, I know nothing more precise about it. He was subordinate to the Construction Inspectorate, Reich North.
Q. And he had some contacts with you, didn't he?
A. Well, no, in general he didn't have any connection with me. I didn't know him personally, of course. Rather, there were connections as far as the preliminary checking was concerned of the accounts for the Construction Inspectorate.
Q. Do you remember having that connection with Bestle?
A. Not directly, I mean indirectly because my conferences concerning preliminary checks of accounts went through the Construction Inspectorate.
Q. You remember having correspondence with him about items of maintenance at Ravensbrueck, don't you?
A. No, I recall nothing of the sort, and I only corresponded with Ravensbrueck and with the garrison at Ravensbrueck, and not with Bestle directly. It was possible he would receive a copy once in a while for informational purposes, but I never did have a direct correspondence with him concerning construction and maintenance.
Q. You don't remember that in 1942 he requested material from you for the maintenance of the outer wall in Ravensbrueck concentration camp?
A. I can't recall that case. I didn't have to put any material at their disposal, because I didn't have any material, and the whole thing was with C-V exclusively.
Q. You don't remember that in 1942 he requested material from you for other repair work on the sewerage of the concentration camp at Ravensbrueck?
A. No, I can't recall any such thing, nor would I know what I was supposed to have had to do with him, because the garrison administration, at the utmost, through Amtsgruppe D for "Dog" was responsible for that. It is possible, of course, that he put his applications through Amtsgruppe D, and they transferred it to the garrison administration.
Q. Do you recall they came on to you?
A. I believe that I went to see Bestle in Ravensbrueck once upon a time, but I cannot recall the exact date. It is also possible that it was someone else, that Bestle probably had already left.
Q. You don't remember what you talked to him about?
A. I spoke with Bestle several times. He came to visit me in my agency as an old friend of mine from Munich. However, I cannot recall for sure whether I saw him in an official capacity at Ravensbrueck or not.
Q. Do you remember having any conversations with him at all about construction matters at Ravensbrueck or any other concentration camp?
A. Construction matters? As far as construction matters were concerned, it couldn't have been about that in 1942. Maybe I was speaking to him about preliminary checks of accounts. That is possible.
Q. Of the concentration camps?
A. I don't know if it concerned the concentration camp or not. It could have been the things in Dachau which I have stated before, where I received, or I had to deal with the corrections in the accounts which came in from the Court of Audits, and I don't believe that Bestle was responsible for that because at the time he had to clear those accounts with the representative of the Court of Audits.
Q. Now, you told us yesterday that there was a branch office of C-VI in Dachau, and this office had to supervise the supply depots there for water supply and heating facilities, is that right?
A. Yes, indeed, I stated that for the garrison administration at Dachau, not for the concentration camp.
Q. I am asking you if this branch office had any contact whatever with the concentration camp?
A. I can't state that. I don't believe so. However, I don't know if the garrison at Dachau had authority to issue orders. I only tried to set up this small department at Dachau, and particularly in order to supervise or control the heating system there, the distanceheating system.
I don't know of anything else.
Q. Do you know that this branch office worked on the heating facilities of the camp, and water supply facilities?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you also said that there was an office for judging and evaluating properties, real estate, that you were the real estate appraiser.
Q. Yes, there was such a small department there, and it had a collaborator also.
Q. Now, I am asking you if you at any time ever appraised or valued property that was to be purchased as a concentration camp, or in connection with any concentration camp?
Q. I cannot recall of any such case.
Q. Well, would you remember it if it happened? You say that it did not happen?
A. According to my opinion there was no such incident. In any case, I cannot recall any such incident.
Q. But you were the real estate expert there in the office. Why was it that you were asked about everything but about concentration camps?
A. I was not the expert for property. I stated in my affidavit explicitly that once in a while I carried out evaluations or appraisers, if my collaborator was not sufficient for all those tasks, because that man was over sixty years of age, and perhaps he went on a trip just once every two months, or something like that.
Q. What office in the WVHA carried out this work?
A. I don't know that. I don't know who did that.
Q. And you have told us yesterday in Main Department 2, your Office C-VI, that this department issued directives and compiled instructions.
This is your testimony yesterday there?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall how large heating plants should be operated, and how the electric -- I withdraw that question. I think it was answered earlier. I want to ask you if Office C, Office Group C, carried out any construction for Amtsgruppe W, W for "William"?
A. W? Well, I really can't recall any incident. Of course, I can't tell you just by heart, but as far as I saw from the documents, "W", and particularly the two "W's", first "W" offices, had their own construction administration, and what other things were constructed for "W" I don't know. I don't have any connection with offices "W", or with their construction departments in that respect.
Q. Your answer is you don't know?
A. No, I don't know; I can't tell you.
Q. Did Amtsgruppe C carry out any construction for Amtsgruppe A in any way, for their office buildings or any other buildings that they may have had?
A. For Amtsgruppe A? No. If they built anything they probably built it for the WVHA, but according to my knowledge Amtsgruppe A had no special construction projects of their own. I couldn't tell you anything about it authentically, however.
Q. They had buildings, and they had to evacuate and reconstruct buildings, and wasn't this done by Amtsgruppe C?
A. That was for the whole of the WVHA, but not for the Amtsgruppe.
Q. Did they carry out any construction whatever, that is Amtsgruppe C, for Amtsgruppe B?
A. Well, I assume that they carried out a few things for the clothing department.
Q. That is what I am asking.
A. But as I said, I can't give you an authentic report on that.
Q. You assume that is true?
A. Well, I can't give you any authentic reports on that, and I don't have any reasons to believe so. It is just an assumption on my part. I don't know to what extent they worked on the various clothing departments there, and at what period of time, and if Amtsgruppe C did anything, I don't know.
Q. Will you tell us if there were any points of contact whatever between your office and Amtsgruppe A?
A. I had nothing to do with Amtsgruppe A, apart from the fact that my files were with Amtsgruppe A. I can't recall any other contact with Amtsgruppe A.
Q. What do you mean, your files were with Amtsgruppe A?
A. I mean my personnel file, 201 file, let us say.
Q. Did you have any conversations with anyone at Amtsgruppe A?
A. No, I can't recall of any such incident.
Q. Were there any points of contact between your office or your subordinates and Amtsgruppe B?
A. No, it applies to that, I had nothing to do with Amtsgruppe D. I had no contacts with them.
Q. B?
A. Yes, B.
Q. You had no contacts either directly or indirectly?
A. No, I can't recall any connection, any relationship in that connection. I don't believe we had any contacts with that agency.
Q. And that is true for the entire Amtsgruppe C, that there were no contacts at all?
A. I can't give you any information whatsoever on that, because I don't know the activities of the other offices of Amtsgruppe C or I don't know it in sufficient extent.
Q. You told us all of the points of contact that your office had with Amtsgruppe D?
A. I didn't quite understand that question. Would you repeat, please?
Q. Are there any points of contact between your office and Amtsgruppe D, either directly or indirectly that you haven't told us about?
A. I didn't say anything about the contacts of Amtsgruppe D. In certain instances maybe I did have contents, namely, that Amtsgruppe D possibly channeled certain construction matters to me about any of the concentration camps, but I had no other connection with Amtsgruppe D.
Q. That is the extent of it, what you just told us, nothing else?
A. No, I had nothing further to do with Amtsgruppe D.
Q. And what about Amtsgruppe W, any contacts directly or indirectly between your office or your Office Group with W?
A. With W? Well, I can't recall any contacts with W for "William." I saw from a document here that he mentioned somewhere in "W" about the works in Linz, but I don't know what in the world I am supposed to have done with them. I don't know how my name came on the list, and it is not clear at all at the moment.
Q. Did you have any conversations at that time about rates?
A. No, I can't recall that. No, I can't recall the whole incident.
Q. Did you ever have any conversations with anyone in "W"?
A. Not of an official nature.
THE PRESIDENT: Recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until 1345.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please. The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, I at one point asked you one question about document NO 1292, which is in Document Book III. This is the letter that Kiefer discussed. Did you receive copy of this when it was circulated? It is Exhibit No. 56, Your Honor, found on page 46 of the English and page 51 of the German. It is written in Kammler's handwriting, I believe, to circulate, at the bottom of the letter?
A. It is addressed to Office Group-W for circulation. I cannot recall that document.
Q. It also circulated in Amtsgruppe-C, did it not. Kiefer told us of that yesterday, or day before yesterday. You don't remember having seen this letter in that office?
A. No, no, I don't think that this letter reached me.
Q. Do you exclude the possibility that you saw it, or just don't remember seeing it?
A. I had nothing to do with the other occasion of sending to Office Group-W for information. I cannot recall it, of any such occurrence.
Q. I would like to ask you now a question about the basic plan of Amtsgruppe-C, which is document NO 1288. I think you have it before you. It is Exhibit No. 44 of page 76 of the English and in Document Book II. Will you give this to the interpreter.
A. No, I have not got the document.
Q. I thought that was the document you borrowed from Kiefer, is that true?
A. No, that is only C-6.
Q. Will you turn to Division C-1, General Construction Tasks, and look at it.
Look at C-1-1, C-1-2, C-1-3, and C-1-4 and tell us what connection this office had with the concentration camps?
A. This document shows the field of tasks of Office C-1, but I cannot reach any conclusion as to how connections existed with the concentration camps. I never knew anything about Office C-1.
Q. Witness, you told us yesterday that you knew that Office C-1-2 built concentration camps to carry on the main construction work. Do you wish to change that testimony?
A. I cannot recall having made that statement, but the organizational chart shows that the construction of concentration camps and prisoner-of-war camps is listed here. I do not know any more. I had no connection with C-1.
Q. You knew at the time you were in Amtsgruppe C that c-1-2carried out construction in the concentration camps, didn't you?
A. All I knew was what the organizational chart showed me. I cannot recall the chart now -- whether I received it at the time -- but I didn't know anything beyond that.
Q. And you never talked to anybody? You didn't ask anybody: "What do our associates in C-1-2 do?" You didn't have any interest to find out whether C-1-2 carried out the purpose listed in the table of organization? You didn't talk to anybody about that?
A. No; I had no cause to do that.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Were your offices all together? The different divisions of Amt C?
A. Until 1944 we were together. After -- I was ill from May -I was no longer together with the other offices, I pointed out that I never entered Office C-1.
Q. Well, as long as you were there, the offices of the different "C" divisions were together; same building?
A. That was a very large building, Mr. President. You met at lunch but otherwise you didn't come across each other -
Q. Just answer my question. You were in the same building?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. C-1,2,3, and 4?
A. Until Spring, 1943, we were together in one large building.
Q. That is when you were taken ill?
A. First we had this heavy air-raid in March when some offices moved away, and then in May I fell ill --- after which I had no contact with it at all. When I returned I had already been evacuated.
Q. Were you on the same floor of the building?
A. The agencies were on four floors, Mr. President.
Q. No, no. I am just talking about Amt C-1.
A. I am unable to say with certainty whether we were on the same floor, or different floors.
Q. Why are you unable to say?
A. Mr. President, these agencies moved from one place to another so often in this last building that it was quite impossible to remember where C-1 was -- at least to speak about it on oath, with any certainty.
Q. Well, didn't they keep the same departments of C-1 together.
A. I assume so, Mr. President. This table of organization is enormous.
Q. Now, wait a minute. It isn't so enormous because I am just talking about C-1 --- 1, 2, 3, and 4. And you have been telling us how few people you had in those offices, so it was not enormous at all. Were those four offices on the same floor of the same building?
A. You mean Office C-1, Your Honor.
Q. C-1, -2, -3, and -4.
A. As I remember it, they were together, because it was a very small office and one always comes across the same people on this organizational chart.
Q. All right. A long time ago you could have answered me, Yes, that those four offices were together on the same floor of the same building. Isn't that true?
A. I assume so. I cannot say with certainty whether one room or two, perhaps, were somewhere else because the department consisted of several rooms, and in this very large building we were placed all over the building. We were not immediately connected with one another.
Q. Well, there is no doubt they were on the same floor, is there?
A. I am unable to say that with certainty, Your Honor.
Q. You just did say it. Were they near each other?
A. We were in a fairly large building, and the various offices, from 1 to 6, were distributed over four floors. Where the single rooms were located, I am unable to say.
Q. Well, at any rate, I have got you in the same building. You were all in Berlin, were you?
A. Yes, Your Honor.
Q. And you were all in the same building?
A. Yes, Your Honor.
Q. Well, I guess that is as far as I can go.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. And you told us yesterday that every Saturday Kammler had meetings of all the office chiefs, and you said that the purpose of these meetings was so that Kammler wouldn't lose touch with his office chiefs. And you also told us that each of them made a report of each meeting. Now, at none of those meetings, are you telling us, the purpose of this office was not discussed, the functions of it, what they did?
A. I never said anything about a record. No record was kept throughout this period.
Q. I think you must have misunderstood me. At any of these meetings of the office chiefs of Office C, do you wish to tell us that the purpose of Office C-1, the functions, the tasks, were never discussed?
A. I cannot recall any such occurrence. I don't know it.
Q. But you stick to the statement that these conferences were to keep Kammler informed of the progress of the offices?
A. May I point out one thing: After 1943 the chief of Office 1, after Karl, were in charge of Obersturmbannfuehrer Rall. He usually was not present when these meetings were held of the office chiefs.
I can recall only one or two or, at the most, three cases when Rall was present.
Q. Do you remember being interrogated on the 21st of December, 1946?
A. Yes, I recall that.
Q. And do you remember saying there under oath that at any typical meeting Kammler had every one of the six or eight persons present make a short report on some current matter for the purpose of keeping informed on what was being done by the section heads? Do you remember making that statement?
A. Whether I made that statement exactly in that manner, I do not recall. But I said -- and it is also contained in my affidavit -- that the participants reported and official notice was taken; the whole thing was for purely informative purposes. Details of these conferences I really cannot remember. I was not too interested, and when reports were made they were without any context so that the individual participant could not form an impression of these things.
Q. Do you wish to tell us that the chief of C-1 never attended any of these meetings?
A. I cannot recall any such occasion. I said he might have been there once, twice, or three times; but whether he reported anything is beyond me. I don't recall it.
Q. Will you look at Division C-2 and tell us if this division had any contact either directly or indirectly with concentration camps?
A. There again this goes beyond my knowledge. I know nothing beyond what the table of organization shows.
Q. As far as you know, it may have had something to do with concentration camps; you cannot say that it had nothing to do with concentration camps?
A. According to the organizational chart and its designations below the Main Departments, it cannot have anything to do with concen tration camps.