DR. PRIBILLA: Your Honor, I object to this question. It certainly is not the task of the defendant to testify as to the veracity of the witness Barnewald.
THE PRESIDENT: We were just commenting on this categorically broad question, "Would you believe his testimony under oath, no matter what he said?"
MR. WALTON: No, sir, I -
THE PRESIDENT: That is what the question implies, you see.
MR. WALTON: I am sorry. I see.
THE PRESIDENT: Judge Musmanno just suggested if the witness said something that he believes, he would be committed to disbelieving him by his prior answer.
MR. WALTON: I can rephrase the question.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: What I said was if the witness would say certain things which were true about me, I would not believe it.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, Go ahead.
Q Then, would you say that the man, Barnewald, could generally be believed under oath?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Why not just confront him with whatever this other witness said without anticipating it?
MR. WALTON: Yes, sir. I will go a little further.
Q I did not catch your answer when you stated whether or not the witness, Barnewald, was with you on this inspection trip to Dora or was in your vicinity or in your presence. Was he?
A Do you mean the statement of Barnewald according to which I am alleged to have stated -
THE PRESIDENT: Was Barnewald with you at Dora?
THE WITNESS: I have already stated that before.
THE PRESIDENT: The answer is yes, then, is it not?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: That is it.
Q How long were you at Dora on this duty of inspection?
A I was there on one evening and the following morning, that is to say for approximately six hours.
Q Now Barnewald states that you told him at Dora that the insufficient delivery of the requested detainee clothing was due solely to Office B-2 of the WVHA. Is this true?
A No. That is not correct. It is not correct. I have never said that.
Q Barnewald, further states that Georg Loerner, as the chief in food matters was the actual responsible person for the deplorable state of the labor camp, S-III, at Ohrdruf. Is that true?
A I believe that this question has already been clarified by the testimony of other witnesses. Loerner never had the title of Food Chief, not according to the situation as it has been explained so far. He could never be responsible for that. He could not be responsible in the case of Ohrdruf S-III.
Q When you reported to Pohl back in Berlin, did you suggest to him that there possibly were other concentration camps in a similar or worse condition?
A No. I could not do that. How should I have obtained that knowledge. After all, I only saw Dora.
Q Did you ever think that your department would ever be called on to help out in similar emergencies for other camps?
A I beg your pardon? I have not quite understood your question. Could you please repeat it?
Q You came back to Pohl and told him you had been of assistance in this emergency. Did it ever occur to you, at that time, that your department would be subsequently called on to help out in another or similar emergency?
A I already explained before that I have also helped in so many cases, that is to say, I also helped troop units in combat, so that it would not have surprised me if on a later occasion, my help would have been requested again in a similar case. However, if the state of affairs had been as bad as it was in the case of Dora, then, of course, I would have become suspicious and I would have assumed that such conditions were customary or that such conditions had reached a very large extent.
I would not have limited myself to helping if I had been able to do so, but, of course, I would have pointed out these things to Pohl.
Q Then when you came back to report and you found or you thought that you might be called on you felt that it was necessary to accumulate extra food stocks in order to help out, if you were called on. Is that correct?
A No. I did not have such an opportunity.
THE PRESIDENT: Nein.
Q Then when you were called on three or four times, did it not occur to you that other camps were in as deplorable a condition as the Camp Dora?
A No. I did not have any reason to believe that.
Q When you helped out the people at Dora, you stated that you got the food moving. Did you ever make a check to see whether this food had arrived at Dora or not?
A Yes. I even received reports about that.
Q Then you know of your own knowledge that the detainees received this food after it reached Dora?
A I received the report that the food had arrived at Dora. I telephone with the administrative officer. I made it his duty to take care and to see that the inmates really received this food.
Q A question was asked you which I did not get. Who was responsible for this condition at Dora? Do you know of any one name or several names who were responsible for the condition existing at Dora when you made your inspection there?
A I have already stated that before.
Q What was the name, or names? What was his name or their names?
A I did not speak about the responsibility of persons. As Camp Commander, Sturmbannfuehrer Foerschner was assigned there. Foerschner excused himself because of the conditions.
He made the excuse that transportation difficulties existed, that he had not been given sufficient time to make the necessary preparations. I have already stated that in my opinion the fault did not lie with the persons, but it was rather the unfortunate conditions and unfortunate circumstances that existed.
Q Did you not consider the responsibility for the feeding and clothing of inmates after this trip was merely one of all the WVHA; rather than being actually that of Amtsgruppe-D?
A No. That could not be the case. After all, the clothing was there, but it was not turned over to the appropriate agencies on the lower level.
Q As a member of Georg Loerner's staff, were you ever during your career in attendance at a WVHA conference of concentration camp commanders?
A No. Never.
Q Was not your advise ever asked as a food or a Administrative expert for one of these conferences?
A No. They had their own expert for that. That was Sturmbannfuehrer Burger.
Q Did you ever know whether or not Pohl attended one of these camp commander conferences?
A No. I cannot judge that. After all, I could not supervise the chief of the main office.
Q Did you ever know whether or not Georg Loerner ever attended one of these camp commandant conferences?
A He never discussed that with me, and I do not think he had any reason to do so.
Q I believe that you have given some direct testimony concerning the affidavit of Hermann Pister, a former SS-Oberfuehrer. How long have you known Pister?
have you known Pister?
A I met Pister at Dora when I made my visit there with Kammler. That was early in November 1943.
Q Have you formed an opinion as to whether or not Pister is able to be believed in a statement under oath?
THE PRESIDENT: I do not think that is very proper.
MR. WALTON: Sorry, sir. Very good, sir. I withdraw the question. I ask that it be stricken.
THE PRESIDENT: It is stricken. I am sure of that.
Q Did at any time, during your time of office, Barnewald make a special request to you for food for the concentration camp Dora?
A Barnewald never did that.
Q Was a request from Barnewald then placed before you by Hermann Pister?
A No. I was not competent in this matter at all.
Q Even in an emergency, would you have been competent if such a request had come to you either from Barnewald or Pister?
A Yes, if such a request had been made then, of course, I would have helped exactly as I did in the case where I found out about it through Kammler. I always tried to help whenever I was able to do so.
Q You are familiar with the Pister affidavit, are you not?
A Yes, I know it.
Q Would Pister make such a statement as this from a motive of revenge against you?
A I do not know why Pister should try to revenge himself on me. I never did anything to him.
Q I believe you stated on direct examination that you were Pohl's deputy some four weeks while Pohl was on leave?
A I beg your pardon. That was when Loerner was on leave. Then I was deputy.
Q You are correct. I will stand corrected. You were Loerner's deputy four weeks while he was on leave.
A Just about three years ago today, I deputized for Loerner when he went on leave.
Q During this four-week period were any reports, routine reports or special reports sent to Loerner's office which were brought to your attention for decision?
A Of course, I cannot recall anymore today what matters were submitted to me in detail at that time, however, I can say that no extraordinary matters and especially important matters were submitted to me. Above all, I did not deal with any matters which have now become the subject of the indictment.
THE PRESIDENT: He will recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal recessed at 1630 hours)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 24 June 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Robert M. Toms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II. Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the court.
DEFENDANT TSCHENTSCHER - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION - Continued BY MR. WALTON:
Q. Witness, yesterday at the end of the session we were speaking of the time when you were acting as deputy for George Loerner during his four weeks leave. At this time, is it not so that the WVHA, and certainly Department B, was understaffed?
A. Yes. In the course of the war many people had been released. They had been sent to the front, and it is also correct that we were understaffed; that is to say, every single one of us was overworked, which was inevitable in view of the war and the military situation at the end.
Q. Therefore, as George Loerner's deputy it was necessary that you receive all of the papers which would normally have come to his desk, is that not so?
A. Yes, every morning I received all incoming mail for the Office Group, and I read it.
Q. Then you were acquainted generally with what was going on in the clothing department of the WVHA, were you not?
A. On the whole, yes, at that time.
Q. Do you remember whether you signed any orders for shipments of clothing to the concentration camps during that time?
A. I have been thinking about that here, now that these matters have become more important in this trial. It is entirely possible that some document or other was signed by me, without my realizing its signi ficance at that time.
Should that have happened - I cannot recall it there was nothing which struck me as peculiar or suspicious, not even when I am reflecting about these things in a different sense than I was at the time.
Q. Did not these reports show to you that there was a great lack of necessary clothing for the concentration camps at this time?
A. No, that did not appear at that time. I cannot recall at all that point was even debated.
Q. Very well. There are one or two questions which I omitted asking you yesterday concerning your visit to Dora. At the time of your inspection of Dora under Pohl's orders, I'll ask you whether or not you were able to determine what type of prisoners were working in the shafts and the tunnels at Dora; in other words, were they German nationals or foreign nationals?
A. I was not able to find that out at the time. I passed the inmates, it is true, but they all wore the same striped clothing, white and blue. We talked to some of the so-called Kapos, the foremen, in order to find out how they were being fed, but all of these men spoke German. I did not notice anything.
Q. Do you know whether or not any of these men were prisoners of war or former prisoners of war?
A. From among the Kapos to whom I talked and who spoke German, as I said, I did not notice anything. They were in their inmates' uniform. It did not occur to me at the time to investigate this point, because this point of view was not generally prevalent at the time.
Q. If there prisoners of war there, they were also at work on these "V" weapons, were they not?
A. Work at that time was purely earth work. The tunnels were then being built. The actual production had not yet begun.
Q. This same group of prisoners who were working on the tunnels were also scheduled later to work on these "V" weapons, were they not?
A. No. Kammler told me that for that purpose he needed skilled personnel, and some of them were free German civilian workers, perhaps workers from abroad, but engineers, skilled workers and mechanics, because work was highly complicated as far as I could judge it.
Q. Then would you state that there never were prisoners of war, as far as you know, who worked on these "V" weapons?
A. This is much too difficult for me. I can say neither yes or no. At that time I was quite unable to form a judgment.
Q. Now, I will ask you whether or not during the month of April 1945, you, together with Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, and Loerner and other members of Amtsgruppe A and B, evacuated Berlin and went to Dachau?
A. We were only together with Loerner. Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl I did not see any more at that time. He had left before, and the supervision for the group south of the WVHA had been transferred to Loerner.
Q. Did you go to Dachau in April of 1945?
A. I went to Dachau for a short time, but I stayed mainly at different places, because I had a special assignment. I was mainly in a place called Pullach near Munich, and for some days in Passau, and I moved on to the south, to the mountains. On two brief occasions I went to Dachau, it is true, which was in the first half of April.
Q. Were not you there with Georg Loerner when a transport of prison inmates was brought from some other camp to Dachau?
A. At that time I stayed near the barracks, not in the actual concentration camp.
I was staying in the area of the SS training camp which we have heard so much about. I saw individual inmates who were doing some work in the camp, but no transports or inmates.
Q. Are you familiar with the affidavit of Gerhard Vieweg who states that he saw you within the confines of the concentration camp at Dachau with Georg Loerner?
A. I do not know that affidavit, and it cannot be true, because I was not in the concentration camp at that time.
Q. Is it true then that you attended the dinner or banquet which Pohl gave for members of his staff at Dachau?
A. A lunch was given, and we expected Pohl to turn up, and I don't believe he actually came, unless that was on a different day which I no longer know. That was in the so-called officers' mess in the woods. It was an officers' mess at one end of the camp near the troop training camp.
DR. PRIBILLA: May I ask the Prosecution where the affidavit of Vieweg is? I must say that I have never seen that document where Georg Loerner and Tschentscher are mentioned together.
MR. WALTON: This affidavit is contained in Document Book 21. I do not remember the exact page, but I believe it is either the last affidavit in Document Book 21 or the next to the last affidavit. It is certainly the only affidavit by Vieweg. The document to which I refer is Document NO-2331, in Document Book 21. It is Prosecution's Exhibit 517, and it is found on Page 30.
Q. (By Mr. Walton) Now then, I understood you to say that you never were in the confines of the concentration camp Dachau during the time of which we speak, namely in April of '45, is that correct?
A. I am not able to confirm that I did not enter the concentration camp at that time.
Q. Have you ever entered the concentration camp at Dachau?
A. I described that yesterday in detail. In the spring of 1941 when I was staying in the troop training camp of Dachau with my unit I inspected part of the actual concentration camp by invitation.
Q. That is the only time?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you familiar with the food stocks of Dachau during the time of April, 1945?
A. In Dachau there was one of our big troop food depots which was in the actual village of Dachau at a distance of two or three kilometers from the camp. That warehouse served to supply our units with food, as I explained yesterday.
Q. During the month of April, 1945, when you were in Dachau, did you go to this food depot?
A. Yes, I went there.
Q. Did you observe the amount of stock of food which was in the warehouse?
A. Yes. The stocks were rather low because we had begun to evacuate that camp and bring these stocks further south in order to supply the troops there.
Q. And you knew at this time that the forces which were fighting Germany were moving closer and closer to Dachau, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Why didn't you, instead of evacuating that food, distribute it among the concentration camp prisoners, which you knew to be in Dachau?
A. I knew, of course, that there were inmates in Dachau, but their food was not among my tasks. As a troop administrative official it was my duty to supply the troops, and I carried out that order.
Q. Now, you have stated that you acted in a commendable manner at Dora. Do you mean to tell me when the need existed, you knew the need existed, that you were prevented by your ordered from making a similar distribution of food during the closing days of the war at Dachau?
A. It was not my impression that the inmates were short of food. Nobody told me anything about that, and I was not competent to do anything about it. I would be grateful if the Prosecution would understand that I might just as easily have conceived the idea to feed the civilian population, or railway officials. I do not wish to make the thing ridiculous, but I should have then opened my depot to the whole civilian population, but I had to serve the troops first.
MR. WALTON: The Prosecution has no further questions.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. You say the following in your affidavit: "Rations for concentration camps were not worked by us. I only know that on the last page of the ration table the rations for inmates were also listed, and the list itself, of course, was printed and distributed centrally." What list are you talking about when you say "the ration table"?
A. That was the list of rations yesterday mentioned by me of the Waffen-SS.
Q. All right. That is all I want to know. That is the Waffen-SS. Where was that list made out?
A. It was made out in my office, in Department I.
Q. Who put on that list in your office the concentration-camp menu or list also on the bottom?
A. That was done by Hauptsturmfuehrer Bomann, whom I mentioned before. He worked on that affair.
Q. In your office?
A. In my office, yes.
Q. Who distributed that list to the concentration camps from your office?
A. As I described yesterday, that went automatically through the post offices. Every administrative agency of the SS and police would automatically receive the list.
Q. It would go through the channels from your office to the troops and to the concentration camps?
A. It did not go immediately there, but, for instance, fifty of the lists were sent to Office Group D, Office D-1V, which in its turn distributed the lists to each administrative officer.
Q. I said through channels. I didn't say directly. I said through channels, from your office to the troops and to the concentration camps?
A. Yes, quite.
Q. Well now, if your office had nothing to do with the food of the concentration camps, why was your office preparing a list, on the list that went to the Waffen-SS, for the concentration camps?
A. How that came about originally I am unable to tell you today. When I joined the office an old copy of that list was on my desk, and when new issues were printed, the same procedure was observed. The reason probably was that the administrative leaders in concentration camps had suggested to include them in that list, because it should be a book of reference for the orientation of the administrative officials. I may point out that this list also includes other rations of people for whom we were not competent, for instance, food rations for what was known as armed forces employees, civilian employees of the Wehrmacht, including the WaffenSS, who were to be supplied through buyers, and who were given different food rations from the troops. So the administrative official would be informed it included all those rations, including very possible, although I am not quite sure, rations for prisoners of war, because that might reach the administrative official one day.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Well, regardless of why it was done, it remains a fact that the list of rations for the concentration camp inmates went out on your list prepared in your office to the Waffen SS and to the concentration camps?
A Yes, but that was not the normal channel. These food rations-
Q I didn't ask you anything about a channel; I just wanted to know if it was a fact. You say it is. You answered my question.
What special mission were you on in Dachau in the Spring of 1945 when you went there? You just stated that you were on a special mission.
A Yes, as I explained yesterday, that my office was dissolved on the 31st of March-
Q You need not go over that. I wanted to know what special mission you were on in Dachau. Now, you can answer that.
A I was given the order to help the supplying of the so-called Fortress Bavaria-Tyrol with food. Together with the administrative official of the general staff Boesler I was to concentrate all available food stocks in Bavaria in order to supply the troops with food in the future. This, therefore, was not an actual SS order. I worked on behalf of the entire army there.
Q How long were you in Dachau before you left there in order to go south?
A This might have been a period of a few days.
Q Well, I don't care how long it might have been. I am asking you how long it was.
A Two or three days perhaps.
Q You visited the inmates and saw the conditions of them there, didn't you?
A I am sorry, sir. No, I did not see the inmates; nor was I in the concentration camp proper. I saw a few around the outside camp who were working there as laborers and craftsmen.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Well, why didn't you go in there, if you were there on a food mission, to see those people: how they were looking and how they were fed? You were right there. Why didn't you go and look at them?
A I did not have permission at that time to enter the camp without a special pass, and my order was not to look after the feeding of the smaller circle of persons--but the food units from the point of view of the transport and organization. I was not there to inspect anything.
Q Well, don't you know now as a matter of fact that there were thousands of people literally starving to death in there? And in the few days after you left American troops came in there and found the most deplorable condition that civilization has ever known?
A I know now, but I doubt still that the inmates were starving in Dachau. I think they were starving on the transport from somewhere else to Dachau. It was not my impression that in this Bavarian area there was an acute starvation or famine.
Q Well, you had better inform yourself, if that is your idea now.
Did you destroy the records of Amt B-1 when you left the Office, the office was dissolved?
A Before we left Berlin we destroyed superfluous files which was a routine matter and an order. The remaining files we took with us to the mountains. We burned them there.
Q So you destroyed them all. Now, you could have answered that question by one word, by saying yes.
Who told you to destroy them?
A That was a general order concerning the entire army, to destroy all files.
Q Why were you told to destroy them? Did they give you any reason for it?
A They were not to fall into the hands of the enemy.
Q Of course that; but why didn't they want them to fall into the Court No. II, Case No. 4.hands of the enemy?
A I am unable to judge that.
Q If they were legal transactions you had nothing to hide, did you?
A I must say that it would be a great help to me if I had these files at my disposal now.
Q That is all.
What date did the order come through to destroy the records?
A That was issued as early as March 1945 when the German army retreated. I did not see that order in writing but it was only given to me orally, and it was carried out everywhere.
Q Who gave you the order orally?
A I am unable to say that with certainty. Most probably it was the adjutant of Gruppenfuehrer George Loerner. But it was a generally known order.
Q If his adjutant transmitted it, he must have known about it. I am asking you that: I am asking you, didn't the order come from him?
A I am unable to say that with certainty, that he gave it to me personally.
Q Well, you were his subordinate, were you not?
A Yes.
Q Where were you captured?
A May the 13th 1945.
Q I said where were you captured.
A In Schliersee near Tegernsee.
Q What were you doing when you were captured?
A We were split up in very small groups and we were completely without orders. We wanted to withdraw into the mountains. We joined the unit of the Wehrmacht which had also been broken up, and through that unit we were requested, or heard of the request, that the whole army group had capitulated. We had to contact the American troops and wait for further orders by American troops.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Who were you with when you were captured?
A Some members of Office Group B, but also other office groups. I was no longer -
Q I just wanted to know the names of the people that you were with that you can remember.
A There was a Obersturmbannfuehrer Borsum, Sturmbannfuehrer Stein, several NCO's; there were perhaps ten or fifteen NCO's, and men.
Q The defendants in the dock--how many of these were with you when you were captured?
A Well, among those present nobody was with me at that moment.
Q Your senior, Georg Loerner, do you know where he was at that time?
A Yes; he was a few kilometers away from us in a different area, but I did not know where he was.
Q Did you know where Pohl was at that time?
A No, I did not know.
Q Did you know where Fanslau was?
A Fanslau--I saw him a few days before the surrender, but then I lost touch with him also, and met him here again.
Q Did you know where Frank was?
A I had no idea.
Q You were in uniform when you were captured?
A Yes.
Q That is all.
THE PRESIDENT: If there are no further questions from the Defense counsel, this witness may be excused.
BY DR. PRIBILLA (Defense counsel for the defendant Tschentscher):
Q I have only a few questions. You told us just now that in your office there was a printed list made which contained the food rations for a large number of persons and groups. That so-called ration table was then distributed centrally to all sorts of agencies. Attached to the table there were the food rations of concentration camp inmates.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
I would like to ask you more precisely: Were these rations fixed in your office or were they passed on to you by other agencies and merely computed in your office and printed?
A That is correct. I explained yesterday that these rations had been decided by the Reich Ministry of Food. That Ministry issued informative gazettes, so-to-speak, regularly from where you could see what the rations were. From these pamphlets the concentration camp administrations had to see how high the rations were. The ration table was merely a list and not an order. It could be compared with the railway timetable where you include connections of steamships and busses without the editor of that timetable being responsible for these branch lines. It was merely to serve an informative purpose.
Q So, therefore, you were informed currently by the Ministry of Food, by the OKH and other agencies, what rations had been decided?
A Yes, we learned that from these pamphlets, or even in some cases from the newspapers. We had to look for these bits of information. The Reich Ministry of Food would not write to me or send the pamphlet to me regularly.
Q How often were you given this informative pamphlet? Were you given it regularly?
A These pamphlets were posted automatically once they were printed, like magazines which come out once a month.
Q Do you recall whether your list included food rations of prisoners of war?
A I believe I am in a position to say yes to this.
Q Do you recall any other groups of persons included on that list?
AAs I remember it, it included rations for workers at the front, for the Todt organization, and for all circles of persons who somehow or other were connected with the Waffen SS, or the Wehrmacht, from the point of view of food policy.
Q Did it include food rations for female workers in the Signal Court No. II, Case No. 4.Corps?
A Yes, they were listed as employees of the Wehrmacht, as I explained before.
Q Another question, Witness, You described how when Germany collapsed you were given a special task, a task not only within the framework of the SS but connected with the whole of the Wehrmacht.
A Yes, that is correct.
Q If I understood you correctly, the task was to see to it that at the end of the war the government had the plan of constructing what was known as the Redoubt in the Southern Germany area, Bavaria and Tyrol, a fortress where a last stand was to be made.
A Yes.
Q In other words, that was a purely military task?
A Yes.
Q What was the atmosphere at the time? Had you acted automatically and autocratically at that point? Had you issued orders opposed to that special task? Would anybody have bothered about that, or did the opposite apply, that at the moment of the collapse it was particularly important to observe discipline?
A That goes without saying. I had to follow the order of my superior's administrative official, SS Brigadenfuehrer Zimmermann, who was also connected with this task and who asked me to account for my actions to him. We had to account for every quantity of food which we disposed of, which was an important point for the higher leaders. Since you asked me about the atmosphere and the views held at the time, I could explain that perhaps by an example. The way we worked was the same as the crew on a sinking ship, which still works the pumps although they know the ship is sinking. But they believe that they must do their duty to the last in order to save what can be saved.
Q Was the position not that every symptom of dissolution was so strong that, without taking a personal risk, you could have acted against orders, or was your observation such that you saw what happened to people who acted against orders at that moment?
A It was generally known at that time that every officer had the right to shoot an officer who had not done his duty--hang him or shoot him.