In addition to that it is a list of the activities of more than Department I/5, which on its face -- I have no way of knowing actually until I question the witness - which shows on its face that the liaison between this department and other departments was extremely close and that the chief of the department, Loerner, over the whole organizational setup of his department maintained liaison through his offices with other departments.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Well, it seems to me that once the authenticity of the document is established, either by admission from the defendant or in any other way that you can do that, you have accomplished your purpose and what you have just now stated is a matter of argument at the end of the trial. There is no need to go into this argument with this witness. It is a question of submission that this document establishes certain things. We have, as you have indicated now, 567 documents and we didn't spend this much time on each document that was introduced, and whatever probative value it had, it was there in the record. Eventually it will be brought forth in argument, but it seems to me that going into the argument of this complicated filing system is a waste of time.
MR. WALTON: I did not intend to go into every argument, sir. My idea was to take certain samples from this and add it.
THE PRESIDENT: Let's do that.
MR. WALTON: Very good, sir. Filing under filing symbol 0-1 which concerns basic orders, does this mean that Department 1/5 was under basic orders from the Reichsfuehrer, the Chief of the Main Office, the Inspectorate of the concentration camps and of other offices?
A I am afraid I didn't quite follow you there.
Q I call your attention to Filing Symbol 0-1 which is on page 3 of the original document and which is on page 3 of the copy which is before me. 0-1, Filing Symbol states that basic orders and enactments concerning basic allocations of labor, and then there are four sub-heads A, B, C, and D. Do you follow me?
A Yes.
Q Then does it mean that the concentration camps were under the basic orders from those four different departments of the Reich Government?
A No, it doesn't mean that at all. Under 0-1 on basic orders concerning and enactments concerning personnel allocation of labor are listed, basic orders about these things could come only from the Reichsfuehrer. Now, 1-A, B,C, and D we have those orders which were issued as a matter of fundamental principle to the SS and which were of importance to the whole of the SS and to Main Department I/5 and therefore they were filed under those file notes.
Q Then I direct your attention further to the filing symbol 0-4 which shows nine concentration camps as sub-heads to the file symbol 0-4 in the matter of requirements for motor vehicles. Would this apply to the motor section of your office?
AAt that time Office I did not have a transport section. It only had a few vehicles for local transport. Now, under 0-4 not only the requirements of motor vehicles were meant, but it says: Establishment and requirements of the outside agencies including motor vehicles.
Therefore, if these agencies needed vehicles they would apply to I/5 which would then pass on the application to the agency of the Waffen-SS which at that time supplied the motor vehicles.
Q Then the Waffen-SS took care of the supply of motor vehicles to the concentration camps. Is that true?
A No, that is not true. Here we are concerned only with agencies of only Department I/5 but not with concentration camps, this filing plan, for instance, is concerned only with Main Department I/5 and its outside agencies in the camps. Therefore, if the outside agencies, Untersturmfuehrer Grimm needed a car, for instance, he would pass on the request here, the requirement of the concentration camps had nothing to do with it at all.
Q Then I pass on to filing symbol 0-6 which is on page 4 of the original. This more directly concerns you personally, did it not?
A Yes, it does.
Q Then you would have been familiar with the instruction concerning the accommodations, food and clothing in the nine main concentration camps, would you not?
A No, that is not correct either. As I said before that this filing plan was concerned only with the activities of the Main Department I/5. If I/5 had to deal with any matter concerning accommodations, food or clothing which happened only if and when some complaint connected with the labor allocations would come up then -- these letters would be filed under that file, not that they had anything to do actually with accommodating, feeding or clothing of inmates in concentration camps. I/5 had nothing to do with that. Food had nothing to do with the Office Construction and Budget or the WVHA later on.
Q You then are sure in your own mind that this file plan only pertained to I/5? It wasn't adopted by any other office in your department?
A It only concerned with the file plan I/5. Of course, every Main Department had a file plan but as the first page of this document shows, it is the filing plan and scheme of Office I/5.
Q That's what I am trying to determine. Every office had a filing plan. Was it or was it not similar to this plan?
A The file plan of every Main Department depended on the tasks and requirements of the Main Department concerned. They had nothing to do with each other. For instance, the file plan of I/4 Accommodations could never have the same file notes as Main Department I/5.
Q That's what I am trying to determine. Now, I direct you attention to the file title or file symbol I/4. These activities of the Main Department I/5 to the Office Chief or the Chief of the Main Office and the superior offices in all correspondence concerning reports of activities to all branch offices. I ask you, witness, if this file plan is true; it means that the activities of I/5 were regularly sent to your office for your information at least; is that true?
A That's true. The report of activities, as far as I can remember, came every six months from the Main Departments and, of course, I would receive a copy from the activity reports.
Q Did you read those copies?
A Yes, I assume so; yes.
Q Then you knew at all times what activities the concentration camps were engaged in so far as it affected your department; that's true?
A The activity report could deal only, of course, with the activities of the Main Department I/5. Of course, as far as we had this job the activity report gave a picture of the work done by the Main Department.
Q Now, I direct your attention further to the filing symbol 50 which is on page 7 of the original. Do you see the symbol before you now?
A Fifty?
Q Fifty.
A Yes.
Q Now, there are certain files which are mentioned there which were under the control and the supervision of the Main Department for Budget and Buildings, were they not?
A Didn't you say 15?
THE PRESIDENT: Fifty.
A I am sorry. I meant 15. Fifty is on page 7 in my document. Several offices III are mentioned there.
Q I am concerned with the names of the firm. The German Earth and Stone Works, the Klinkerwerke, certain building sites of the Speer organization. Now, this was of interest to Department I/5 for what reason?
A Under that file note I assume the list is all of the firms which employed inmates at any time for which reason these firms are listed here.
Q And the same answer could be made for the file symbol 60 with regard to private firms using inmate labor; is that not correct?
A Yes.
Q Now, in corroboration of what you said yesterday concerning the breeding of Angora rabbits as part of the Goering Four-year plan, that would come under a special or miscellaneous file which on page 10 of the original is listed as 0901. Do you find the place?
A. Yes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: So far as I am personally concerned I believe you are spending too much time on this document and going into a lot of unnecessary detail. I don't see how the breedings of rabbits is going to help us very much in determination of the very serious case issue which we have before us. Now if you can't concentrate and in some *ay abbreviate your enquirers in this voluminous document which is simply a business of filing then you will have to study a little more before you present it. It seems to me that you are wasting entirely too much time on. it.
MR. WALTON: As I understood the statement from the Presiding Judge the wish of the Court was to inquire into these matters. I have only one mere question to ask him on this document.
THE PRESIDENT: Go ahead. Ask one more.
Q. The other activities listed there which have to do with the weaving of straw shoes, the manufacture of furniture, etc., were they industries which were within the concentration camp itself, or were they SS economic enterprises?
A. What is listed here -- weaving of straw shoes -- carpet weaving, etc., were things which were based on an idea of Himmler's, that is, tiny work-shops worked on them. They were not industries but I would like to say just to occupy inmates and they were so small in the extent that I am amazed that these things are listed at all. I see and under 090 "silk culture," and I seem to recall that there was a tiny silk culture done by some inmates at sometime but why there should be a special file for this is pure nonsense. These are not industries but tiny workshops in concentration camps.
MR. WALTON: The Prosecution now desires to offer for identification Document NO-3665 and asks that it be marked Prosecution Exhibit 570 and subject to proper objection by counsel for the defense and reserve the right of its formal introduction into evidence at a later time. Witness, will you indicate when you are ready to be questioned on this?
A Yes, I am ready.
Q Now, this is a letter signed by Burboeck which has to do with the labor of the well and the sick prisoners that is correct, is it not?
A Yes.
Q Did you have anything to do with the policy of having prisoners too ill for manual labor to do other work about the camp?
A I know nothing of this policy. I assume that this was issued to Burboeck by Gluecks because the date is 23 July 1941 which shows that it happened at a time when the Main Department 1/5 had already become part of Gluecks outfit. I cannot recall any such order nor do I know anything about it.
Q Would Gluecks have had the right to formulate such a policy and issue such an order without higher authority?
A Gluecks was the Inspector of Concentration Camps, and subject only under Himmler. He always had the authority to issue such orders.
Q Then the transfer to the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps, was not an established fact at the date of this document. Would your department have received a copy of this order or of this letter?
A What department are you talking about?
Q I/5.
A The letter came from there.
Q I am sorry.
A That's what I say. The letter comes from I/5.
Q I am very sorry. Then, this was a letter or a policy of which your department was informed; is that true?
A I/5 issued that order or in fact, it is signed by Burboeck, the Chief of Department I/5.
Q Then you could have informed yourself that sick prisoners were forced to work in concentration camps if you so desired; is that correct?
A I am unable to say anything about that today.
Q If you had been informed that this was an order going to the concentration camps regarding sick inmates, what, if anything, would you have done about it?
A In any case I Would have seen this order, I would not allowed it to be issued.
Q Did not on such important matters you request your Chiefs of Department to inform you?
AAs I said before that at that time the whole business of Main Office I/5 and allocation of inmates had been under Oranienburg for 100% and was in charge of Gluecks. On direct examination, as I said, I gave precise details of this; there orders were issued without my being informed about them at the time.
Q However, on the face of the order this was issued from Berlin, was it not?
A The official seat of the Main Department I/5 was in Berlin, at the time, and therefore the order was issued from that office.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Mr. Walton, what do you draw from this document?
MR. WALTON: What I am trying to get at is the treatment of concentration inmate labor and I am leading up to the point where the economic enterprises under the Waffen SS are to be furnished regardless of the number of the sick in the camp.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Well, I read from this that those who are unable to work will be used in cleaning-up activities.
MR. WALTON: That's correct, sir.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: What more do you draw from it than that?
MR. WALTON: Well, I believe that a sick prisoner is entitled to more than being forced to work.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Well, he would only be called upon to clean up the camp and there's no indication that these sick prisoners are bedridden. What's wrong about that.
MR. WALTON: I am sorry, sir. I will just leave this document then. Now, witness, I should like to go back to that time when the Main Administrative Office for Economics were moved from Munich to Berlin. State whether or not there were suitable quarters available for the immediate move of this office to Berlin?
A I did not understand the question fully, I believe. You mean whether we had suitable office accommodations when we moved there?
Q That's correct.
AAs far as I know the move to Berlin was effected already in the first months of 1939. We moved into a building in Geisbergstrasse. That building had been rented and had sufficient rooms to accommodate our offices. I was transferred on 1 May 1939 to Berlin and the first few months I believe, until the outbreak of the war I worked in an office in Geisbergstrasse.
Q When your organization moved to Unter den Eichen was there any construction of buildings to house the department effected there?
A The new construction Unter den Eichen had not been completed yet. One could not move in at that point. In the various rented buildings Unter den Eichen the agencies were accommodated and some of them remained in Geisbergstrasse, as far as I know the Offices A.
Q Do you know approximately when the necessary construction was completed for the new office buildings for the organization of which you are a member?
A I cannot give you the precise details, and all I know is that when we moved into the new rooms it was only for about four to six weeks when most of them were destroyed in an air raid, which I believe occurred in 1943.
Q Now, where did the labor come from the build these new buildings?
A I have no idea; I didn't bother about these buildings details
Q Is it not true that a small concentration camp was established near the job site, or the site where these buildings were being constructed?
A It is correct that inmates worked on that construction.
Q Now, after the buildings were finished it became necessary to have a maintenance crew of labor for the building, a cleaning detail, a small carpenter detail, a small electrician detail, and all details which are necessary for the proper upkeep of a building; is that not true?
A Mr. Prosecutor, from the time you are talking about, the WVHAactually existed, I was in charge of Office Group B, and I had nothing to do at all with these matters. I am not the suitable man to be asked about this because I cm not able to say anything.
Q I am not asking you know if you knew in your official capacity, but I am asking you these facts as a man would naturally observe who came to work at a certain place each day, and who received the benefit of such maintenance services. I ask you again how were those maintenance services carried out--according to your recollection?
A I can confirm that in that building there were a crew of inmates working who were responsible for the tidiness and maintenance.
Q I ask you this question: Were these concentration camp inmates quaters near the place where they worked?
A I confirm that too; that is quite correct.
Q And that this small concentration camp was directly under the WVHA, rather than under a camp from which they were detached; is that correct?
A I am unable to tell you that; I do not know; I do not know who was in charge of that camp. I assume that it was a branch camp of Oranienburg and subordinated to Oranienburg.
Q Were you present when one of these -- I am sorry -- were you present in your office when one of two of these concentration camp inmates were caught stealing bread from the cellar of one of the office buildings?
A I know nothing about this.
Q Then you as one of the senior officers in the WVHA had nothing to do with their punishment or disposition, is that true?
A Punishment of inmates? No.
Q I will ask you whether or not you were standing at the window of your office when these two inmates were hung in the courtyard of this building.
A I know nothing of this incident.
Q Have you ever heard of an instance where this small sub-concentration camp executed men for stealing bread or stealing food?
A No. I know nothing of this.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q Witness, I understood you to say that during the year 1940 that you had had a private agreement with Gluecks to take over the duties in sofar as the concentration camps were concerned prior to the official transfer of Office 15 to the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camp, is that correct?
A Yes, we had that agreement, and we concluded, it in the spring of 1941.
Q When did you have an agreement with Gluecks -- this private agreement?
A The spring of 1941. I should say roughly in March or April of 1941.
Q So you contend that between March or April, 1941, until the official transfer of Office Group 15 to the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camp, that you had nothing to do with the operation or allocation of labor of the concentration camp?
A What I said, your Honor, in March or April, 1941, from that time onwards, I arranged with Gluecks that he would take over the management of 15 particularly with reference to the collaboration of the concentration camp. Officially I remained in charge until the official transfer was effected into the Inspectorate of Concentration Camp.
Q That is correct; and there is no order, or nothing in the records, to indicate any agreement that you had with Gluecks prior to September 1941.
A No, there is nothing in the documents about this.
Q Do you have any other evidence which would corroborate your contention that during the summer of 1941 that A-5 had nothing to do officially with the concentration camps and particularly with the allocation of labor?
A No, I have nothing.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That is all.
BY MR. WALTON:
Q May it please the Court, may I ask one question along the line which Judge Phillips was pursuing.
Q Witness, did you not feel yourself responsible for the conduct in Department 15 until such time as Gluecks officially took over?
A I said before that officially I remained chief of that department until September, 1941, but from the spring of that year onwards I did not have very much to do with these things, because, as I said on direct, it was entirely impossible to direct these things from Berlin without having Gluecks' closest collaboration, because Gluecks from the beginning sabotaged that work until he was finally in charge. He was furious that task had not been given to him by Himmler, but to me, the Main Office Building and Budget.
Q When you had the agreement with Gluecks to turn this department over to him, you in effect washed your hands of the whole affair.
A That has nothing to do with washing one's hands of the whole business. It was technically quite impossible to do this work without the Inspectorate of Concentration Camp. Commanders from the beginning opposed this measure. If you read Grimm's affidavit now he had been received by Gluecks, this becomes quite clear; it was entirely impossible to do this work unless you did it from the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps.
Q I should like to call to the witness' attention Document NO-1530which is in Document Book V, on page 143, Prosecution's Exhibit 148. I have two questions which I would like to ask on this document -Document NO-1530, Book V, page 143, Prosecution's Exhibit 148. Now, witness, your stated in your direct examination, that one the concentration camp inmates clothing reached the supply rooms of the concentration camp, it passed under the control of Amtsgruppe D; is that correct?
A I didn't quite understand that question; could you please repeat it?
Q You stated in your direct examination that one concentration camp inmates' clothing the supply rooms, the actual supply room of the particular concentration camp, it passed under control of Amtsgruppe D of the WVHA.
A Yes.
Q On the second page of this document --NO-1530 -- the chief of the central office sends directions to the camp commanders of the concentration camps with regard to the clothing of prisoners. Do you see the date of that document is 9 February, 1943?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: 26 February.
MR. WALTON: The second page your Honor.
A It says 5th February on my document.
Q Very well, then; the 5th February, 1943. You have the document?
A Yes.
Q That was the only reason for quoting the date. You have it?
A Yes.
I call your attention and ask you to explain what is meant by the first sentence of the first paragraph of this document. "With the consent of the Chief of Office Group B it is ordered that clothing belongin belonging to Polish and Russian prisoners in concentration camps will be used as prisoners' working clothing where the prisoners' clothing provided by the camp is not sufficient."
A Oh, yes, quite. Yes, I see it now. The connection here is as I said on direct examination that we - that is Office Group B - as early as the beginning of 1943 - had ordered that if inmates' clothing is not sufficient they will be allowed to wear civilian clothing. That order was issued by us because there was a certain amount of opposition in the beginning with the Inspectorate of concentration camps. The xentence "by agreement with Office Group Chief B" refers to that order as does the reference up on top of the page, SS-WVHA B2 Lb/Kr, and so forth. Also the date 1st of February can not be correct because reference is made to that of 6 February.
Q Were these
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment, we will take a recess now.
(A recess was taken.)
20 June 47 M-8,1, pkp Hoxsie (Int. Garand)
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. WALTON:
Q. Witness, before the Court suspended for the recess we were discussing Document NO- 1530, and particularly the document which is dated on your copy 5 February 1943 and on the English translation it is dated 9 February 1943. At the morning session we were discussing that you had given your consent to issue clothing belonging to polish and Russian prisoners in the main concentration camps in the heading of this order. I will ask you to state whether or not these Polish and Russian prisoners at one time were prisoners of war either before, during or after they reached these concentration camps?
A. First of all I must say that the permission for the wearing of civilian clothing did not only refer to Russian and Polish prisoners, inmates, but all inmates, I cannot give you any information about the origin of the Polish and Russian inmates because I don't have any information about that
Q. Why did you specifically consent then to the clothing that belonged to the Polish and Russian prisoners being used as prisoners' working clothes?
A. I did not agree in particular that this was only to apply to Polish and Russian workers, inmates, but this extended to all of them.
Q. Well, was any mention made to you of Polish and Russian prisoners by the Chief of the Central Office when he obtained your consent?
A. No, I cannot recall that the Chief of the Central Office discussed the matter with me. I assume that he took this agreement from the order of the WVHA which is mentioned above. In any case I don't know anything about the matter.
Q. You do not recall that order of the WVHA which is mentioned in the reference above by that number?
A. What the exact text was I don't know any more today.
Q. Do you recall any of the terms of that order?
A. No. I only know that here the permission was given that civilian clothing could be used as prisoner inmate clothing, and the reason for this was that the inmate clothing could not be provided to sufficient extent by the concentration camp as a result of the lack of raw material.
Q. Then you were in a position to get clothing from whatever source you could find in order that the prisoners could be clothed at this particular time. Is that not true?
A. This interpretation is not quite correct but we only gave the permission that civilian clothing which was located in the camps could be used and could be worn by the inmates.
Q. But it says clothing belonging to these prisoners. Was the Camp Commandant authorized to take from him that hath not even that which he hath under this consent of yours?
A. That had nothing to do with my permission. What happened in the camps was exclusively the task of the camp commander. However, as long as the clothing was there to sufficient extent for inmates the inmates had to turn in his civilian clothing and he had to wear the prisoner's garb.
Q. Then this was the clothing which the inmate had turned in and had stored for him pending his release. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. I invite your attention also to document book 5, to document 1166-PS which is prosecution Exhibit 113 and which is found on page 145 of the English Document Book.
MR. WALTON: Ray it please the court, is that in the English translation? Has the court located that document?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
MR. WALTON: There is some confusion as to whether it is in the German or not.
THE INTERPRETOR: The witness indicates that he has found it.
BY MR. WALTON:
Q. Witness, since your office in Amtsgruppe B was in charge of clothing for concentration camps as well as the Waffen-SS units, by glancing over this report is this a general type of report which was received from Office D by your office?
A. Yes, I can recall it.
Q. What other department besides your department could have been interested in the stocks of clothing in the concentration camps?
A. Probably the Reichsfuehrer SS might have been interested.
Q. Any others?
A. I don't know; I can't think to whom else this report should have been submitted.
Q. From a clothing standpoint, even in August, 1944, would you not have been interested in the clothing stocks of the concentration camps, especially when they were expecting the arrival of 612,000 prisoners?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, in my direct examination I have already referred to this letter and I have stated there that this letter above all was written by Burger and he will be able to confirm that because he is here after all, in order to enable me to once more make an energetic advance there for the procurement of raw material and in order to give me a basis to once more submit a detailed report to Himmler with regard to the situation of the field of the inmate clothing.
THE PRESIDENT: This letter appears to be signed by Burger. Should it be Burboeck?
MR. WALTON: No, this was the chief in Amtsgruppe D, under Amtsgruppe D, under Amtsgruppe D-IV.
THE PRESIDENT: The translation was Burboeck. It should have been Burger.
BY MR. WALTON:
Q. Is the witness through with his answer to the previous question?
A. Yes I am.
Q. Now, do you recall whether or not on the basis of this particular report in view of the large number of prisoners concerned you did go to the Reich Ministry of Economics and make a request for additional raw materials?
A. Yes, I recall that.
Q. Now in the document itself Burger mentions the Hungary program and it is just below the itemized list of clothing which he says he has on hand. That would be, your Honors, on page 3 of this particular document. Will you explain to the court what you know to mean the Hungary program?
A. I didn't mean anything by that. I thought as I have already said in my direct examination that this was the resettlement of Jews.
Q. Then you thought it was yarn and textiles confiscated from the Jews which were to be resettled. Is that what you mean to say?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you make the same answer concerning the Poland action mentioned on the last line of the second paragraph under the numeral IV where it says, "Precious little can be expected from other useful articles received from the Poland Action (Warsaw)." Do you make the same answer as to what you thought when you first saw this report it referred to in the matter of textiles?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you changed your mind at any time since as to what these programs were?
A. Today I know that this was the extermination program.
Q. Did any other department of the WVHA but yours have the authority to obtain these articles from the Reich Ministry of Economics?
A. I didn't quite understand your question. We did not receive our clothing material from the Reich Ministry of Economics but only got our raw material for that and only B-II was competent for that.
Q. I think he has answered the question even though he misunderstood it. Now I should like at this time to call the attention of the witness to Document Book XI. This is document 2105 which is Prosecution Exhibit 313 and which is found in the English translation on page 103. Now, in your direct testimony yesterday you stated that you knew nothing of this letter from SS Untersturmfuehrer Grimm and you further commented that this letter refers to an order from the concentration camp Inspectorate and on your cross examination yesterday you stated that the Labor allocation officer in the concentration camp were in the year 1940 under your main department 1/5 under Budget and Construction.