A Dr. Freoschmann, I must tell you that I myself am not quite clear about that. I have already said in my direct examination that the Amtsgruppe W was a special group, and that I myself do not know exactly why this organization was chosen in that form. Independent firms from the commercial point of view were subordinated in some ways to a military administration. I do not know the exact reasons for this procedure. Is that sufficient to you?
Q Well, your information was rather negative. I believed that you, as a deputy of Pohl, could give us some more information about that matter. Does the designation Amtsgruppe W have anything to do with the person of Pohl who came originally from an administrative agency in the navy? Let me put the question in this manner. From conversations with Pohl did you ever gain the impression that his allegedly economic way of timing was only a military way of thinking; and that therefore, he transferred concepts which were usually used in military service, and he tried to transfer these concepts to the economic field. Did you ever gain that impression?
A It is clear that Pohl had been in military service 25 or 30 years and had a purely military way of thinking in the organization. In order to gain a complete picture of this Main Office -- in any case the economic concepts were, of course, included in the military organization. But I cannot say exactly whether his way of thinking was economic or military.
Q Witness, do you know that some of the office chiefs objected strongly to the maintenance of this term?
A I know that with the office chiefs there was an opposition against the entire form; however, I also know that they were not successful in that.
Q What is the reason for the manner of thought in the individual office chiefs so that they could not gain the exact ideas of the individual activities?
A Do you mean by them, the office chiefs, or myself?
Q The office chiefs.
A I have already stated that these offices represented an emergency suiting which did not fit anywhere.
Q May I say that neither the deputy of Pohl, nor the individual office chiefs knew what the designation of these offices meant, and that consequently one cannot blame the defense counsel although he has been active in this SS trial, he is still unable to form a clear picture about these matters.
A I would like to suggest to you that you should not have asked me, but you should have asked the chief.
Q I asked the chief, and the chief was unable to give me any positive answer. Thank you, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other cross examination by defense counsel? Apparently there is none. Mr. Robbins, you may cross examine. Mr, Peter Walton is cross examining for the prosecution.
MR. WALTON: May it please the Tribunal, there should be some word of explanation as regards the cross examination, at least, insofar as the first phase is concerned. The cross examination in this first phase will be on certain documents which has come to the attention of the prosecution since this case had been proceeding for some little time. This is the reason that these documents were not regularly included in the document books. I may state in my place that some were brought to the attention of the prosecution as late as a very few days ago. However, it is with apology that I shall have to warn the Tribunal that the prosecution can only proceed as fast as the witness conforms himself of the contents of documents submitted to him, and as fast as the Court can peruse the documents which is put before them, or the copy of the document which is put before them then in the witness's hand. There can be no help for this. I make my apologies for the seemingly inordinate length of time for the first phase of the cross examination will take.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WALTON:
Q Witness, I believe you testified on direct examination that you became a member of the NSDAP in November 1931, is that correct?
A In the first of November, 1934, I became a member of the NSDAP.
Q 1934 or 1931?
A 1931.
Q 1931. Do you recall the number, the party number which you got?
A I can't remember it anymore by heart.
MR. WALTON: I am sorry, Your Honor, this apparently doesn't come through clearly to me.
BY MR. WALTON:
Q Does the number 676772 sound familiar to you?
A 676772, yes, that was correct.
Q Then that was your party number?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Also in your direct examination, I believe you stated that you became a member of the SS in November 1932?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Do you remember your SS number?
A Yes, it was 37719.
Q Now, witness, I ask you that your becoming a member of the NSDAP, whether or not that was a voluntary act on your part?
A I have already stated in my direct examination that I entered the NSDAP voluntarily and I also entered the SS voluntarily.
Q Your rank upon entering the SS in November 1932 was what?
A I was a plain SS-man.
Q And your rank in the year 1943 had become what?
A In 1943, on the 9th of November 1943, I was appointed SSgruppenfuehrer.
Q Was a part of your title Lt. General of the Waffen-SS?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Will you tell us once again the first year you became associated with the co-defendant Oswald Pohl?
AAt the time I was in Readministrative Office of the Waffen-SS. On the first of February, 1934, Oswald Pohl took over its direction. In that year, in the administrative office of the SS, I was in charge of the clothing department, which, in 1935, became a Main Department, and had as its designation V-III.
Q: Your Honor, I should like to discuss for a moment, in connection with the Administrative Office of the SS, the sectional break-down of that office. May it please the Tribunal, the document which I desire to talk about at this time can be found on Page 1 of Document Book 22 and is Document NO-1574. Witness, do you have that document before you now?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: Directing your attention to the Document NO-1574, what function did you have in the administrative plan which is shown in this document?
A: I was chief of the Main Department V-III, which is located on the second page of this document under Paragraph 4.
Q: Are you acquainted with the duties of any other department or the responsibilities of any other department as shown on this organizational plan?
A: Only in very large outlines. I cannot give you any information about the details.
Q: Then in Section V, were there any other departments not shown at this time?
A: I cannot recall that at the moment.
Q: Is it not true that under the auditing office there was included the SS Main Office, concerning some economic enterprises run by the SS?
A: About all the tasks I cannot, unfortunately, give you any information whatsoever. I did not know anything about that at the time, and I still don't know anything about it today.
Q: Will you state whether or not a representative of the Security Service of the RSHA, or the office which at that time took the place of the RSHA, was included in this organizational plan?
A: I cannot say that. On the organizational chart it is only stated SD-Main Office and Race and Resettlement Main Office. However, I don't know exactly why these offices were mentioned there and that their tasks were.
Q: During the year 1935 where was your organization located, that is the head office, or the headquarters?
Q: Are you referring to the SS-Main Office, or the Administrative Office of the SS.
Q: Administrative Office of the SS.
A: The Administrative Office was located at Munich.
Q: And you have stated that Main Department V-III, as shown on this organizational plan, was under your supervision and control, is that not right?
A: Yes, the Main Department V-III was under my control.
Q: And this department supplied clothing and leather goods for the Allgemeine-SS troop, did it not?
A: In the translation I understood clothing and leather. That is not correct. I gave them clothing and equipment.
Q: Very well. Did you supply clothing and equipment to the Special Duty Troops?
A: We procured clothing and equipment for the SS-Special Task Troops, the SS-Verfuegungsgruppen.
Q: Did you supply clothing and equipment for the Death Head Units?
A: Not in 1935, only from 1936 on.
Q: At this time in 1935 did you provide clothing and equipment for the concentration camp guard personnel?
A: I cannot recall any more whether in 1935 we already furnished these goods. It is impossible for me to state that today with certainty. I only know that with the introduction of the Reich budget for the Death Head units and the concentration camps in 1936, that from that time on we also furnished the clothing for these institutions and organizations.
Q: Then I will ask you, Witness, during the period 1935 to 1938, did your organization supply the clothing for the concentration-camp inmates?
A: Yes, as far as I can recall from 1936 on.
Q: Where, with realtion to distance, was the administration office located as regards the concentration camp at Dachau?
A: I have not quite understood the translation. Will you please repeat the question?
Q: Was the Main Administrative Office of the SS, that office which is shown in the second part of the chart which is now before you, located at, in or near the concentration camp at Dachau?
A: I still don't quite understand the question. However, I must say that the Administrative Office of the SS was located in Munich, and there was also the Main Department V for "Victor" III. The Main Department V-III, however, had a clothing plant at Dachau.
Q: Then some of the offices, or some of the sections which composed the Main Department V-III were located in the concentration camp at Dachau, is that not so?
A: They were not located directly in the concentration camp, but they were within the area of the concentration camp, and only the clothing depot because for this we did not have any space in the administrative building at Munich. No other offices of V-III were located at Dachau.
Q: In your official capacity state whether or not it became necessary for you to make trips to the clothing factory at Dachau?
A: Naturally I had to visit the clothing depot at Dachau.
Q: During this time were you able to observe the industries which were maintained by the concentration-camp Dachau as separate from the clothing factory located there?
A: At this time no clothing plant at all was located at Dachau. I don't know what plants you are referring to. Could you perhaps explain that to me somewhat more in detail?
Q: You have stated that the clothing factory which was directly under Main Department V-III or the equipment store which was also at Dachau was visited by you from time to time on official business, isn't that true?
A: There was a clothing depot, but a clothing plant at that time did not yet exist at Dachau.
Q: Now, on your official trips to the clothing depot or clothing store located at Dachau, did you or did you not inspect other tasks being performed by the inmates of the Dachau concentration camp?
A: No, I did not, because the clothing depot was located directly at the entrance so that I did not have to pass any other enterprises or any other institutions there. It is possible that perhaps I visited the carpenter shop on one occasion, but I am unable to say it precisely any more today. In any case I had nothing to do with the other enterprises which were located there.
Q: I am not charging you with having any supervision or responsibility for other enterprises. I am trying to establish the fact as to whether or not you saw the concentration-camp inmates engaged in such tasks as the repair of shoes, the manufacture of garden tools, the manufacture of furniture for the camp itself, or any industries which would naturally grow up in and around an installation of this size. I will ask again, on your trips to Dachau, what activities, if any, did you see the inmates engaged in?
A: Mr. Prosecutor, all this has happened almost fourteen years ago, or twelve years. I cannot say any more here under oath what prisoners or what inmates I saw and what I saw them doing, their work. It is impossible for me to say that.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Very well. How long did the organizational plan which you have before you remain more or less correct for the Administrative Main Office of the SS?
A I assume until 1939. Of course, some organizational changes may have occurred during this time. However, I cannot recall any of them.
Q In May of 1936 the Administrative Main Office moved from Munich to Berlin, did it not?
A No, in Berlin the two main offices which I have mentioned here were reorganized. They were two main offices; Budget and Construction, and Administration and Economics. This re-organization took place on the 1st of April, 1939. On the 1st of May, 1939, I was transferred to Berlin.
Q Then the Administrative Main Office and other SS Administrative offices became the Main Office for Budget and Construction approximately at the time it moved to Berlin, did it not?
A Yes, I have already stated on the 1st of April the organization Budget and Construction was established.
Q I submit to you Prosecution Exhibit No. 33, which is Document NO-620 and which is in Document Book II on page 53.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the document?
MR. WALTON: The document, Sir, is NO-620.
THE PRESIDENT: A chart?
MR. WALTON: A chart, yes.
Q I will ask you whether or not as regards Amt I of the Main Office for Budget and Construction, as shown on the document now before you, NO-620, Prosecution Exhibit 33, -- is that chart more or less correct organizational picture of your office?
A I do not have an organizational chart, but I have only the compilation here. In this compilation this office is likewise listed and it corresponds to the organization at that time, after the Spring of 1940.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Were there any appreciably different organizational plans prior to the date you mentioned in 1940? I have reference to the time from 1939 until the date you mentioned, the Spring of 1940? Was there any appreciable difference?
A I have already stated in the course of my direct examination that the Main Departments I/5 and I/6, as far as I can recall, were only established in the Spring of 1940. Therefore, if in 1939 an organizational chart already existed, then these two main departments should not be included in it.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Mr. Walton, practically every question, or a good many of the questions which you have put have resulted in the witness stating that he testified to this in his direct examination, which is practically true.
MR. WALTON: Yes, sir.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Now, why do we go over this same ground, unless you are leading up to something which is not obvious to the Tribunal?
MR. WALTON: In my offer of proof, Sir, I think it will become apparent as time goes on that the witness either has failed to testify to certain material facts concerning this organizational plan either by inadvertance or some loss of memory.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Why not direct his attention particularly to what you feel he has failed to testify instead of having him repeat what we have already heard.
MR. WALTON: Very good, sir. I shall leave that matter at this particular time to return to it at a more opportune moment. Prosecution at this time offers for identification Document NO-3666and asks that it be marked Prosecution Exhibit No. 555 and subject to proper objection by defense, reserves the right of its formal introduction into evidence at a later date. I think the court at this time has before it the English translation of this document.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
MR. WALTON: As soon as the witness has had time to look it over, I shall go ahead with the cross-examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Go ahead, Mr. Walton.
Q I shall ask the witness at this time whether or not Department I/5 of Main Department I had as part of its duties the allocation of prison inmate labor?
A I have already stated in the course of my direct examination that the task of this Main Department was the labor allocation of the inmates.
Q Then you admit that this is your signature to this document which you hold?
A In the document which I have my signature is not contained, but it is only stated, "Loerner." However, I assume that I have sent the document in question.
Q I call your further attention to this distribution list which appears below your signature, or below your name. Does the fact as shown here that 20 copies went to the Administrative Office of the Waffen-SS or 20 copies to the Waffen-SS Command, which included the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps, mean that at least one copy of this document was transmitted to each concentration camp?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Then your office of necessity had to maintain close liaison and close contact with the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps, did it not?
A I have already stated in my direct examination that because of this Main Department I/5 I was in contact with Gluecks and that it was in the very nature of this assignment that I/5 had to collaborate very closely with the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps. For this reason, the agreement was reached that from the Spring of 1941 on this Main Department was to be directly subordinate to the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps.
Q Now to which Main Department do you refer?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A I refer to Main Department I/5, the allocation of inmates.
Q But the Main Department I/5 was still under your supervision and control, was it not?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Now, by calling your attention to paragraph 1 of this document it states that concentration camp labor were employed both in the SS Economic Enterprises and also privately owned enterprises, is that not right?
A What document are you referring to now.
Q I have reference to the document which is your letter under date of 17 July 1940.
THE PRESIDENT: The one in your hand.
WITNESS: Yes, yes.
Q To renew my question. In paragraph 1 of that document it appears that concentration camp labor was used in SS owned Economic Enterprises and the prison camp inmates were also leased to privately owned enterprises, is not that right?
A Yes, that is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess, Mr. Walton.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until 1:45.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 19 June 1947)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. WALTON: The Prosecution at this time desires to make a brief statement in that the request of the Honorable Tribunal was delivered to the Prosecution over the dinner hour, and every effort will be made to speed up the cross examination as is humanly possible in conformity with the safety to the Prosecution's case.
BY MR. WALTON:
Q Witness, prior to the noon recess you were asked by the Prosecution that as early as July of 1940 the prisoners of concentration camps were used for economic enterprises, is that correct?
A From May 1940 - I did not say that. I only confirmed that for the enterprises listed in this letter under paragraph I and the State enterprises, that is correct, I confirmed that.
Q Very well. I shall ask you in the light of the first paragraph of the Document NO-3666, which you now hold, whether or not concentration camp labor was used or employed by the SS-Enterprises?
A Well, that is correct, yes, it is.
Q From your memory, are you able at this time to state what kind, or what type of enterprises of the SS was interested in as of July 1940?
A Well, you can see that from the third paragraph of this document. In this part exactly is listed in whole economic enterprises, inmate labor was employed.
Q I should like for the witness to be more specific as to the third part of the document. That refers to distribution list on page 2 of the original ---
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Page 3 very clearly indicates what he is referring to.
MR. WALTON: I am sorry.
BY MR. WALTON:
Q Then in paragraph 3 on page 3 of the list is a representative of the SS-Enterprises at this particular time, is that correct?
A Well, of what part do you mean, now on page 3, the paragraph there.
Q The Prosecution makes reference to the list on the last page of the document which ---
A Yes, yes, I see.
Q All right. Those enterprises in paragraph 3 thereof are SS-enterprises, are they not?
A Yes, those are enterprises of the DEST, G.M.B.H. that is listed, that is correct.
Q Now also at this particular time there was a lease system, or a system whereby concentration camp inmates were allotted to privated enterprises, were they not?
A Well, you can see from the document that inmates also were employed with private enterprises. However, I can not imagine that a large number of inmates was involved here. Today, of course, I can no longer recall how many inmates there are. I must refer to my testimony on direct examination where I stated that I myself did not deal too much with the main tasks of the Main Department 1-V, because all of this work would only be done by very close cooperation with the Inspectorate of the concentration camp, and from Section five of this document it becomes clear that already the time the Main Department 1-V maintained a department with the Inspectorate of the concentration camp, and this proves my assertion that this work in this field was not possible to be carried out by the Main Department of Construction.
Furthermore, Section 6 of the document shows that this Main Department at that time was only being erected because it shows here that only in three concentration camps there were labor assignment officials.
Q: Since you are unable at this time to recall any private enterprises to whom convicts were leased I will ask you if you remember the type of work in which those private concerns were engaged that would necessitate them requesting concentration camp labor?
A: I can't tell you this either. Before I saw these documents here in Nurnberg I did not recall and I did not know whether at that time inmates were employed in private industries and therefore I can today only say what I see from the documents. From my own knowledge I cannot give you any details with regard to these matters.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Mr. Walton, let me ask a question.
MR. WALTON: Yes, sir.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Who gave you authority to issue this order? Document 3666?
A: That was the Chief of the Main Office Budget and Construction, Pohl.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: And the second paragraph: "The blue compilation form for prisoner allocation is to be used for the daily registration". What does that mean? The second paragraph of the document reads as follows: "The blue compilation for prisoner allocation is to be used for the daily registration." What does that mean?"
A: Well, this paragraph refers to a previous decree which I can no longer recall. I suppose there is some kind of a form on which the inmates are listed as specialized labor and unskilled labor. I couldn't tell you more about that.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Well, you wrote this. Don't you know what you meant by saying that?
A: No, I didn't write it, your Honor. My name is only below the document.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I don't mean you wrote it out. You issued it. Don't you know what you meant by an order which you issued?
A: If your Honor please, probably at that time I knew it but today after seven years I really cannot tell you any more what it was.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Well, where were these daily forms to be returned? To your office?
A: No, these reports -- well, they are not really reports. They are lists of all the specialized labor and unskilled labor which were listed with the labor assignment leader in the camp. The lists remained there and were not sent on.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: So you remember now that the lists that were made stayed in the camp -- the daily registration?
A: Well, I think that's the way it was. Whether it was like that in reality I cannot tell you to the best of the world but I think that these registration lists remained in the camp.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Now, after you gave this order and gave the rules and regulations as to the allocation of the prison camp labor what, if anything, did you do in regard to seeing how this labor was allocated? What kind of work they had to do and how they were treated in their work?
A: No. I have already explained in my direct examination that I could not deal with this Main Department 1-5 very much and that therefore I proposed that this Main Department be incorporated in the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camp and that was one of the main reasons why this transfer, first the unofficial and then the official transfer to the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camp was carried out and approved by Himmler. At that time I had so much work with the establishment of the administration of the Waffen-SS that I could not at that time deal also with these tasks which were not in line with my usual tasks. After all, I had no knowledge at all in all of these matters and therefore I did not carry out that work but rather Burboeck together with Gluecks carried out the work.
It's obvious that I signed one or the other of the decrees but that doesn't prove that I really had the direction of this Main Department and carried it out.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: No. Nobody else signed it except you, did they?
A: This decree I signed; that's true.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: After you issued this decree you said you did nothing further in regard to seeing what happened to the labor after you allocated it by this order?
A: Once the labor assignment was concluded -- well, it's correct I no longer took an interest.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That's all.
BY MR. WALTON:
Q: Witness, on the distribution list which is just under your signature or your name there appears that the clothing factory at Dachau received a total of five copies. Was the clothing factory at Dachau at this time employing the concentration camp labor for the second shift which you testified in direct examination?
A: The clothing factory at Dachau apart from the testing enterprises which I described in the direct examination and in which civilian workers were only employed at that time -- this clothing work had also a magazine in Dachau and in this magazine at Dachau inmates were employed.
Q: By the term "magazine" to mean a magazine for explosives and shells and implements of war?
A: No, when I speak of "magazine" I meant a warehouse for clothing. It had nothing whatsoever to do with powder and ammunitions. It was clothing and there they stored the clothes in their warehouse.
Q: Then there was concentration camp labor employed in the clothing warehouse for the Waffen-SS at Dachau?
A: To this clothing warehouse inmates were sent from the concentration camp at Dachau; that's correct.
Q: Do you recall now the approximate number of the crew of concentration camp inmates in the clothing warehouse at Dachau at any time?
A: Well, that is, of course, very difficult for me to give you any figure today. That may have been 30 or 40 but I couldn't give you an exact figure.
Q: Now, concerning once more the private enterprises or private concerns who employed prison-camp labor, do you recall the method by which the funds were paid into the Waffen-SS?
A: Well, I can no longer remember these details today and testify under oath. Anyhow, at that time already the amount which was paid for the work of the inmates were forwarded to the Reich. How and in what manner that was done I couldn't tell you today.
Q: Very well. Did the Waffen-SS retain any of these funds for its own treasury?
A: No. At least I don't know anything about it.
Q: Did the Waffen-SS ever retain any funds from its own economic enterprises worked by concentration camp labor?
A: I didn't quite get your question. I am sorry. Whether the Waffen-SS retained funds?
Q. I will re-phrase the question. Did at all times, from all sources, did the Waffen SS turn over to the Reich all funds it received?
A. Yes, of course, insofar as the Reich had a right to these funds, of course the sums had to be forwarded to the Reich.
Q. You use the phrase "insofar as the Reich had a right to these funds." Witness, I am trying to determine from you whether any of the money listed as income from the economic enterprises of the Waffen SS, from the private concerns paid over to the Waffen SS for the use of concentration camp labor, or from any source whatsoever--were any of these funds retained for the Waffen SS treasury, or did every pfennig so obtained go to the Reich by transfer?
A. Well, the transfer to the Reich, of course, was not made by a bank transfer, but by booking simply on the income page of the book. However, I cannot remember that any funds were ever retained; anyhow, I couldn't tel you anything about such occurrences.
Q. Where did the Waffen SS obtain its money to pay its bills and its cost of operation?
A. The Waffen SS received its funds from the Reich.
Q. Since this was only a book transfer, is it not true that these funds going into the Waffen SS were merely credited on the books as having been transferred to the Reich; and, as a matter of fact, the Waffen SS drew against these funds for its expenses?
A. No, counsel, that is not the way it is. In accordance with the regulations of the Reich budget, al income which goes to the Reich has to be handed over to the Reich treasury, and, therefore, cannot be used for its expenses, but has to be turned in, actually turned in. The money which was required for the expenses was transferred to us upon request by the Reich treasury.
Q. Then, by turning in these funds you built up a credit, or an amount of money, which could be ear-marked or returned to you for construction; is that not right?
A. No, that is not right. The expenses were expended in no way from the income. Those were two quite separate fields which had nothing to do with each other.
MR. WALTON: May it please the Tribunal, the Prosecution at this time offers for identification Document No-3698, and asks that it be marked Prosecution's Exhibit 556; and, subject to proper objections by the Defense, reserves the right to have it formally introduced into evidence at a later time.
THE PRESIDENT: While this is being distributed, will you let us see the original of the previous Exhibit 555?
MR. WALTON: Apparently it is not at the Prosecution's table. I believe that it was turned in to the Secretary General.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
BY MR. WALTON:
Q. The defendant't attention is directed to the signature on this document. Do you have the original there?
A. No, I don't have it.
Q. Then I will ask you if an order or a letter on this subject, and in the language expressed, could have been written by you?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Do you want to find out if he signed this letter?
MR. WALTON: Yes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Why not ask him that directly?
MR. WALTON: If that were the case he would have said--the answer to that could be: I couldn't tell you anything unless I saw the original document.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Ask him if he is familiar with this document; if it has been brought to his attention; if he has ever seen it, or if he dictated it.
MR. WALTON: Very good.
Q. The document, which is now before you, is a letter on the subject of branch offices of the Main Office Budget and Buildings for pri soner allocation; is it not?