Your Honors. It is on page 59 in the English document book. NO-1563.
THE PRESIDENT: It is Exhibit 392?
DR. HAENSEL: Yes, 392. Your Honor.
Q: This is headed Final Conference on Balance Accounts. From that document it seems that you were to have taken part in the Balance Conference of Office W of June '44, that is 59 should be right, Your Honor. It is a conference on balance accounts of Office-W. According to your knowledge the combined enterprises, which were under Office-W belonged to such enterprises which employed inmate labor, and pay for this work was not channeled to the inmates but to other agencies, and these agencies had a profit for this work. Isn't that an inhumane way of treating the people?
A: In this respect I have to point out that in these conferences on balance accounts concerning inmate work there was no mention made of inmate labor. They were merely formal and very dry talks of the balance which had been established already, and only figures were submitted. But apart from that at that time I had the impression that as a consequence of the emergency existing among the German people, it was necessary to use every labor and to use it to its fullest extent. The most important at that time was that work was done that the production was being stepped up, because after all this was not a normal war any more, but a total war, and a total war which used the people to the last man and to the last woman. The money at that time was not very important any more. The only important thing was the raw material and the labor. The finances was a second rate question.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, do you think that total war involves using the last man and the last woman of other countries?
THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor, I don't think so.
Q: I suppose a nation can decide for itself whether to use the last man and the last woman and the last pfennig in waging war, that is its own business. The accusation here is that the men and women and money of other countries were used to wage total war for Germany. Do you see the difference?
A: Yes, Your Honor, I do see it.
Q: Do I understand you to mean that it is all right, or that it is justifiable for a nation to take anything from another country in order to wage war itself. You don't mean that?
A: Your Honor, I did not mean to say that, but what I meant to say was that only at that time it was presented to us as extreme necessity in war, to use the means of the other countries for the aims of warfare, too.
Q: You mean that the situation was desperate, and any means for conducting the war was justified?
A: Well, that was the way it was explained to us at that time.
BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q: Well, the idea of control of manpower that was explained to you at that time, too, was it that every human being had to work, and the State decides what the individual man had to work. Was it in this sense that it was explained to you at that time?
A: Yes, at that time, that is the way it was explained to us, and that propaganda was put to us again and again.
Q: In that case you must have dealt with economic questions too, must you not. In that respect kindly remember the document which has been put to you by the Prosecution, and it is Book No. 14 on page 42 of the German text, and it is No. 1287. In that you are mentioned as a participant in a meeting concerning the establishment of the iron foundry in the Volkswagenworks of Fallersleben?
A: I did not participate in this meeting. This is proved by the second part of this document, and is the report made by Dr. Hohberg concerning this meeting. That report was made on the same day when the meeting took place. The record made by Dr. Kammler one day from then, or a few days later. Dr. Hohberg, would certainly have listed me as a participant if I had actually participated. I only state this, not to try and make believe that I had no knowledge of the existence of the economic enterprises, I only want to say how the situation was. I do not deny that I had knowledge of the establishment of the economic enterprises, and I also knew that apart from the free workers inmate labor was also used in those enterprises.
But at that time neither from my inner conscience nor from my outward position had I the possibility to do anything against this way of directing the State or the warfare.
Q: Let's deal with this word of "conscience". Every human being assigned to work, or not whether he is a foreigner or a German, every human being has a claim to humane treatment and equal humane treatment, and there can not be any doubt, can there, that from what we have heard and seen here, that many human beings were treated inhumanely. Witness, what do you know about that?
A: Before coming to Nurnberg I knew nothing about the medical experiments being carried out, with malaria, or typhus, or high altitude, or whatever they were, and I did not know anything at all, either about the gas chambers, or the extermination of human beings. I knew nothing of Euthanasia, or 14-F-13, or of the Action Meerschaum, or of the Night and Fog prisoners, or whatever actions they were, I did not know anything neither of the systematic atrocities. It is true that I did hear of such acts which were supposed to have occurred in the camps, but again I heard that these abuses had been severely punished. From the fact that I did not know anything I had no possibility to take steps against the locking up of people in the camps in any manner at all, and I'll have to say to that, this system of locking people up in camps still exists today; it still exists in Russia and elsewhere.
Q: Tell me, did you know that in the socalled extermination camps human beings were killed on a very large scale for no other reason, as for instance, for being a Jew?
A: No, I don't know that. I did not take part in the gruppenfuehrer meeting at Posen, because at that time I was not a Gruppenfuehrer as yet. It is true that in 1944 I heard rumors, vague rumors concerning these things, but even at that time I did not believe them, and I rejected them as enemy propaganda.
I neither saw such chambers, let alone taken any part in such actions. I never knew anything about the activity of the so-called special task troops, the Einsatzgruppen of the RSHA.
Q: Witness, let's get back to the field, in which your work and your special interests were located, and that is food, one of these fields, food. It cannot be denied, can it, that people were going hungry and were starving to death in concentration camps. Did you know anything about it, and what did you do to prevent it?
A: I did not know that human beings were starving to death in the camps. As I said already in my statement yesterday, neither myself nor my office group were responsible for the food supply to the prisoners in the camps, but often were requested to help, we helped as far as the food emergency allowed it at all. I am of the opinion, however, that the main difficulties in this field started only in the period when the heavy air raids and military disorganization took place, and at that time it was true that help and assistance was no longer possible, for the simple reason that agencies were cut off from each other.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Let's go over to clothing, and let's go back a little earlier. You just spoke of the collapse, and I think it is quite clear that at that time the agencies did not work properly any longer. However, it has been put to .... from Volume V, Exhibit 148, Document NO 1530, Page 147 in the English Document Book, which would be 149 in the German document book. This is a report from Office D, dated 26 February 1943--1943, mind you. It is in Volume V; it is Page 147, Your Honor, but I see it on Page 143. Dated 26 February 1943, it refers to a circularized decree of your office B II, and it can be seen from the document that already at that time there had been difficulties in clothing because the camp clothing could not be secured properly and, therefore, the inmates were to wear civilian clothing which they had brought along. To that you must add Volume III, 116, document 2149. This document is an affidavit. I'm sorry; let's leave this document. I withdraw it, Your Honor. This is in February 1943 that you had already heard of what you just called a bottleneck in clothing. Therefore, you knew about those difficulties. What did you do about them?
A The difficulties in the field of textiles were existing for the German army and the German people from the very beginning, and they increased every year. After all, this is no secret. The war aims and the war plans of the Allies, after all, took into account that by the blockade of Germany from the raw material countries, the difficulties of the supplies would increase more and more. However, in spite of these difficulties, I did not just reckon that we would neglect clothing for the inmates in favor of clothing for the WaffenSS. No. My collaborators and I aimed and tried anything we had in our power to cope with the requirements and to procure whatever could humanly be procured. That, of course, the supply of concentration camps was influenced by the magnitude of this bottleneck, that is obvious, but we have done everything in order to copy with this emergency as far as possible, and this is also one of the reasons for the decree which is quoted in this document. Since the Office D refused Court No. II, Case No. 4.to issue the decree, we issued it in order to prevent these difficulties in this field from increasing.
It was not our fault that clothing for inmates was insufficient. That was the fault of the German raw material shortage.
Q If there was little clothing, would there not have been another way out; that is, to reduce the number of inmates?
A Well, that, of course, would have been the right way. Again and again I pointed out the difficulties of filling these concentration camps so much, but Himmler never listened to it. Concerning commitments and releases from the camps, the RSHA, after all, was the only one to decide, and here even Pohl and the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps could not do anything. Himmler and the RSHA did not let anybody interfere in this field.
Q Well, I think that the question is not sufficiently answered with this simple assertion. Will you please examine your mind again? What, in detail, can you say about reports to Himmler and about what you did and tried in this direction?
A Well, from 1942 on, when the raw material shortage really became serious and could be felt, I again and again submitted reports to Pohl, and Pohl handed them to Himmler. Here I must point to a document. That is the letter of Burger to me. This is Document NO 1990, and it is from Document Book III, Page 116 in the German text, and I am sorry that I don't know the English page number. It is Exhibit 73.
Q It is a letter of 15 August 1944.
A This letter is a request for inmate clothing made by Amtsgruppe D, and it is addressed to me. On the first page it shows the strength of the inmates and the new, incoming inmates. With reference to this document, I have to point out that this letter was, as we say, an ordered work. I wanted to get a document in my hands from Burger, on the strength of which I could first of all intercede with the Reich Ministry of Economy again and could then strengthen my position with Court No. II, Case No. 4.them in order to get a new allotment of raw material; secondly, to be able to point out to the Reichsfuehrer in detail the difficulties that existed.
Burger will certainly be able to confirm this fact. The new incoming inmates, as listed on the first page, certainly did not come into the camp, in reality, to that extent, but this very letter gave me the occasion to make a last report to Himmler, which Pohl handed to Himmler, and in which I stressed the emergency and shortage of clothing, and in which I requested that the new flood of prisoners coming in be stopped. As far as I remember today, I did not receive any answer at all to that letter.
In this connection, I would like to point to the testimony in the Buchenwald trial at Dachau, and that is the testimony of the English Lieutenant General by the name of Morris Southgate. He testified as a witness there, and he said that when he took over the camp of Buchenwald, he saw the supply stocks there in which were incredible amounts of clothing, food, and other utilities, which would have been sufficient not only to feed and re-equip the whole inmate crew of Buchenwald, but also a large part of the civilian population. Who gave the order that such stocks should be hoarded and not issued, that I do not know, but it does prove that there still were stocks, and that it was only the fault at the lower level agencies that these stocks were not issued to the men.
Q May I report to the Tribunal that I have requested of Lieutenant General Southgate an affidavit. He is in Paris, and I hope that we shall still receive the affidavit.
Here the question arises that if your proposals were not accepted and your urgings not heard, after all you should have resigned. Did you?
A But at that time we were in war time and I was under martial law, and insubordination would certainly have brought me the death sentence, and I did not want to desert.
Q Couldn't you have gotten an assignment at the front?
AAt the beginning of my testimony I stated already that in 1918 near Rancho I was injured; for long years I had a stiff leg and I was not at all in a state to be used at the front.
Q Therefore, I think you want to say that there was no other way for you but to stay in your position and keep things going and that is what you did -- your duty as well as you could in this frame work; is that what you mean to say?
A Well, if I may, I would like to add something. As I testified already I did not know anything of these terrible occurrences of which we now hear. Men and forces were working here which were more powerful than we men of the WVHA, and forces on which I had no influence whatsoever; with these men who killed in cold blood, I had nothing in common -except the fact that they were the same uniform as I did. However, I have to say that men like the camp commander, Wirth, of Treblinka, was not a member of the SS. The Tribunal has repeatedly expressed astonishment that most of the men who are said to be responsible for these crimes are dead. I don't think that is so surprising, because these men, after all, knew they were responsible, and they escaped from human judgment by suicide. I can assure the Tribunal that if I myself considered myself responsible for the unjustified death of one human being I would not be sitting here today. I did not consider the SS as a clan for the committing of crimes, secret crimes, but rather as an association, explaining how things run for its members, that is in a good sense; my idea, it was true, was that it demanded obedience and loyalty within the organization, that they had high ideals and views.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: A moment or two ago you mentioned a name which I did not catch, and you said of this man, who evidently had a provocative character, that he did not belong to the SS. Do I understand from that observation that you mean that no one in the SS could have done the things which this individual did?
A No, Your Honor, that is not what I meant to say.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well, that is sufficient. What was the name, by the way.
A Wirth -- W-i-r-t-h. Treblinka
DR. HAENSEL: Wirth is the camp commander of Treblinka. Treblinka was one of the extermination camps. Wirth is dead too. Dr. Morgen who has been repeatedly questioned as a witness knows the man from the SS; he saw these gas chambers and mass murders for the first time at the occasion of the investigation of corruption at Treblinka, and he even instituted, that is he wanted to institute proceedings against Wirth, upon which he received the immediate order by Hitler submitted to him by Wirth. By that order, issued by Hitler, not from Himmler, a duel started between Wirth and Morgen because Morgen wanted to investigate this man, and he succeeded to prove a few murders to him which had not been committed by order of Hitler, and upon that Himmler dropped him and sent him to Trieste. And there when Morgen chased him again in order to get him back, he was killed in some mysterious way. It is a very interesting question I have just pointed out because in the IMT trial these matters which were brought up in the manner they were, were a climax, because the witnesses to a large part were surprise witnesses.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q Witness, another thing comes to my mind. You stated still further back that you had conversations with Himmler, and you said that Himmler would not listen to you. What representations had you made to him, to Himmler, which he wouldn't listen to?
A If your Honor please, I didn't say I talked with him; I said I made reports to Himmler which Pohl passed on to him. I didn't speak with him.
Q You didn't have conversations with Himmler personally?
A No, no.
BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q Would you please recall the order you had by Pohl according to which you were not to talk with Himmler directly?
A There was an order that all correspondence to Himmler could only be signed by Pohl, and that conferences with Himmler only were to be conducted by Pohl.
Q Did you in your testimony a while ago say that you must have been disappointed in your confidence to these leaders which you have talked about.
A Well, I think that all of us are of that opinion that we have been deserted and disappointed; and that responsibility which I charge myself with is the guilt that from the beginning I joined these men in loyalty -- that is the guilt which I reproach myself with.
THE PRESIDENT: Let me suggest to you that your mistake was not in joining the men in the first place when you had no reason to suspect their bad motives, but in putting yourself where you could not separate from them in relinquishing all control over your leaders, so that when they started to be criminals you had no means of repudiating them.
A If Your Honor please, during my activity with the SS I did not gain an impression that these men were criminals; I did not come to that conviction. This conviction I only had after the war -- at least fully.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, this is a very psychological comment which hasn't anything to do with the task that confronts us.
DR. HAENSEL: I think, Your Honors, that we have reached a point where I will have to continue my final speech, that is the explanation of these problems. Therefore, I can terminate now the direct examination of Georg Loerner, if you may only permit me to give you one short quotation. It is from Augustinus, and there is a beautiful sentence there. It is not quite easy to understand, but that is just a charm of the quotation, and I translate it literally from the Latin. It says: That Augustinus because of this reason is going away because it is wrong in a way. Georg Loerner has stated his case as he sees it, and he said what he said in a way of truth, that is in his way true, and that after all the only truth does not exist, the truth is only away.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS: Dr. Haensel, in your examination of the defendant Georg Loerner you asked the witness a question as to the character of Globocnik, who was the man responsible for what took place in Lublin, and he started to answer that question, and he got this far. He said: That he was a very ambitious man -- and that is the place you either intentionally, or unintentionally, cut him off and he didn't go any further. Now, we would like to hear exactly what he thinks of the character of this man, and we are not accusing you of not letting him have his full sway, but inadvertently possibly you didn't let him finish his answer. We sometimes among ourselves on the bench prefer to distinguish counsel not from the blood but from ability and appearance, and we do that affectionately; and we would appreciate it if counsel would permit him to finish the answer. Will you now give us your estimation of this man Globocnik?
A. Globocnik was an Austrian. As Frank has already stated before he had formerly been Gauleiter of Vienna. Then suddenly he became an active member of the Waffen-SS as a simple SS-man, private, and quite as suddenly he appeared as SS and police leader at Lublin. How these ways of Globocnik were directed and by whom, I don't know. Anyhow, from the moment when he turned up in lublin as SS and police leader, he was a real favorite of Himmler with whom he always had conferences directly concerning his tasks. It was difficult to negotiate with Globocnik because he promised everything and kept nothing.
Therefore, I always was in favor of having as little as possible to do with Globocnik because it was very hard to work with this man, and above all, we had the experience that he brought everything to the Reichsfuehrer in a distorted manner. The Reichsfuehrer favored him a lot. He even gave him the assignment to extend the SS and police bases in the East and that was a direct insult to Pohl who, after all, had the task of all the constructions.
I, at that time assumed, when I heard of the Action Reinhardt, that this Reinhardt action was this action of extending the SS and police bases in the East. He also had the assignment of the colonization of this whole area. I don't know what tasks he had besides that. He was very ambitious and one might even say he was deceitful. I, and all of us, wanted to have as little as possible to do with Globocnik. That is all I can say on Globocnik.
Q. Well, you did not consider him a man of good character and reputation, did you?
A. Oh, no.
EXAMINATION BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. Witness, on this same subject of Globocnik, in your affidavit you stated that Himmler informed you that you would be able to obtain large quantities of raw materials through Globocnik. Knowing, as you did at the time, the character that Globocnik was, did no doubts arise my direct examination I have already testified that we assumed that these materials in which partly foreign currency was found, came from the resettlement action of the Jews and that here, seized surplus clothing was concerned, and that in this clothing such matters had been hidden, such currencies.
Q. If you had meant that from this quoted sentence, it would appear to me that it would not be necessary to say "it is obvious that one thought" because that would not be an illegal origin of the property. This phrase suggests that you had misgivings in your mind as to the correctness of the seizure of the property, but since you weren't officially notified, you could lull your conscience into repose by saying, "Well, they haven't told me officially and therefore it may not be true."
A. Your Honor, I think that in this affidavit one cannot weigh every word so carefully because after all, this is not testimony but only excerpts from a testimony taken at random from a longer one. Therefore, the connection within the testimony should be known first in order to weigh the single word, the individual word here, with special care.
DR. HAENSEL: If your Honor please, if we speak of foreign currency, may I point out what has not been brought to light in the previous examination as yet? Here is the question.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q. Do you remember the German foreign currency regulations?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know that nobody in Germany or nobody in the territories under Germany was allowed to have foreign currency in his possession?
A. Yes, I know.
Q. Did you hear that -- I don't know whether you heard or not -but did you hear that now here, no German is allowed to have American Military Money; for instance, we, the lawyers, we can't have any dollars?
A. Yes, that I heard too.
Q. Was it the same at that time in Germany with foreign currency? Was one supposed to turn them in to the Reichsbank?
A. There were very severe regulations that all kinds of foreign currency had to be turned in to the bank, or rather, to the Reichsbank and there were severe punishments for illegal possession of such foreign currency.
Q. Therefore, all possession of this foreign currency was illegal?
A. It was illegal and punishable.
Q. If, therefore, a dollar was found in clothing, that dollar then, according to German law, didn't belong to the owner, did it, but rather to the German Reichsbank?
A. Yes, to the German Reichsbank.
DR. HAENSEL: No further questions, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: We will take our recess before the cross examination.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.
(Recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. SCHMIDT: (For Defendant Joseph Vogt):
Q Witness, in your direct examination through a concrete example you have explained to us how in the books and in the accounts the procedure was followed in the case when the administration of a concentration camp tried to procure clothing, for the inmates of a camp. Have I understood you correctly to say that the listing in the books and the payment in such a case was not carried out by the office treasury of the concentration camp concerned, but that it was listed in the treasury of the clothing plant at Dachau?
A I stated that the clothing was procured by the clothing plant and it was paid by them. The concentration camps did not have anything to do with the payment, and therefore no bills could be listed in the accounts of the concentration camps.
Q Witness, do you know who carried out an auditing of the bills in the clothing plant at Dachau?
AAs far as I can recollect the auditing court did this work itself. For this purpose the auditing court had its own expert.
Q Do you mean to say with that preliminary auditing of the bills through the Office A-IV of the WVHA was not carried out at the clothing plant of the Waffen-SS at Dachau?
A It could not be carried out at all by the preliminary auditing agency because that agency did not have any experts at all on that field, that is, as far as I know. The examination and the auditing was only carried out by the auditing court.
Q. Witness, you had the supervision over the troop economic stores. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Were Post Exchanges connected with the Troop Economic Stores, where also members of the WVHA were able to have exchange privileges and could meet the demands, that is to say, could make purchases there whenever they were on an official trip abroad?
A. It was not so generally applied as you have stated; not every member of the WVHA could make his purchases at every Post Exchange. However, I had given the permission that in the Post Exchanges in Holland for example the members of the WVHA could buy Post Exchange goods as far as this was needed for their personal use.
Q. Did these Post Exchanges buy their requirements from the socalled black market abroad?
A. No, that is hot correct; they brought their goods on the normal market through allotments which they received by the competent office.
Q. The Prosecution has put in the cross-examination, - to the defendant Josef Vogt in the witness stand on the basis of an affidavit of the former SS judge Dr. Morgen, that Vogt had been active on the black market abroad by making large purchases there and that he had personally enriched himself. Do you know anything at all about that, witness?
A. I do not know whether Vogt personally enriched himself. I only know that Vogt came to see me on one occasion. I believe it was shortly before Christmas 1943 and at that time I gave him the permission that for the female employees in his office he could buy several things at The Hague because at that time he had to make an official trip to The Hague in Holland. I gave him that permission, I do not know any other further details about the matter.
DR. SCHMIDT: I have no further questions.
BY DR. PRIBILLA: (Attorney for Tschentscher)
Q. Witness, you were the superior of the defendant Tschentscher?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you still remember when Tschentscher entered your office?
A. That was approximately in October 1943.
Q. Did Tschentscher come from the Front at that time?
A. Tschentscher came from an SS Division where he had been an administrative official.
Q. What special task did you, as a superior of Tschentscher, give Tschentscher within your office, and what tasks did he have to carry out?
A. Tschentscher became chief of office B-I, food. I believe in my direct examination I have already discussed the task of that office in detail. It was the task of this office to furnish food for the units of the Waffen-SS and the police which was located in barracks, at home and in the Front areas.
Q. That is sufficient for me. Later on you have appointed Tschentscher as your deputy. I would like you to clarify here what fields were concerned in that matter and how this deputizing was handled in practice.
A. Tschentscher became my deputy as chief of Amtsgruppe B. I believe in the course of the trial very much has already been said about the deputizing matters in the WVHA. In the case of Tschentscher it was not different; the deputizing was only a formal matter because the regulations was that every chief had to have a deputy. As far as the factual work was concerned I did not include Tschentscher in that factual work of the office of the Amtsgruppe. He, therefore, was only my formal deputy.
Q. May I ask once more conceretly, was it during the short period of time when Tschentscher stayed in the WVHA, - it was a relative short period of time from the end of 1943 to the beginning of 1945, that Tschentscher mostly did his work in the field of food or what it that he had a right to make decisions also in the billeting and clothing matters in particular because he had been appointed your deputy?
A. Tschentscher only had to deal with the field of Clothing.
Q. Is it clothing?
A. I beg your pardon, I made a mistake. I mean the field of food. He did not have a right to assist in making decisions in other fields for Amtsgruppe B. When I took a trip when I took a furlough in 1944 the other office chiefs had to decide independently, that is to say in important matters they had to second the decision of the chief of the main office; that was Pohl.
Q. Did you inform Tschentscher about the happenings which have been discussed here? I am referring in particular to the Action Reinhardt or the action G.
A. No, I did not inform him at all.
Q. Why did you fail to inform Tschentscher about these things? Were the actions already completed at that time?
A. First of all the whole matter, the utilization of the textiles which has just been described here, was almost completed in 1944 and secondly, this was a secret matter and only those persons who would have been informed of it would have to work in the matter. Furthermore, I did not charge Tschentscher with matters of food and raw materials. There was no reason for me to tell him about it therefore.
Q. How was it in matters pertaining to Group W. Did you ever concern Tschentscher with that?
A. As chief of Amtsgruppe B I did not have to deal with matters dealing with W, but as deputy chief W. Tschentscher had nothing whatsoever to do with this matter. There was no reason for me to tell Tschentscher anything about these things.
DR. PRIBILLA: Thank you witness; I have no further questions.
BY DR. KLINERT: (Attorney for defendant Volk)
Q. Witness, I only want to ask you one single question. Can you tell me who was commissioned for the purchase of real estate for the economic enterprises?
A. I can recall that a civilian employee by the name of Kuehler was entrusted with this task. He carried out this task as a special assignment for the WVHA.
DR. KLINERT: Very well, I do not have any further questions.
BY DR. MAYER (Attorney for the defendant Max Kiefer)
Q. Witness, in Amtsgruppe B you had to take care of food and clothing. Now, I want to ask you , did you ever negotiate with the defendant Max Kiefer as chief of Amt C-II, or with his office C-II, in order to buy food or clothing or erect buildings?
A. No, that was not necessary because in the course of the war such constructions were neither planned nor carried out. When we established troop economic depots then we erected them in buildings or by erecting barracks, and no special planning was necessary. This construction was carried out by the local construction authorities.
DR. MAYER: Thank you; I have no further questions.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN: (Attorney for the defendant Mummenthey)
Q. Witness, you were Pohl's deputy. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. In that capacity you in a certain way were the second man on the staff and you will be able to give us information about the organization of the WVHA. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you perhaps finally explain to us what the designation Office group W means? I must admit that in the course of this trial which has gone on for mouths I have not as yet gained any clarity about that. Why was this institution provided with the designation Amtsgruppe W?