Q. We haven't seen that letter. Have we the order of the Reichsfuehrer SS dated July 7th?
A. Oh, yes, I saw it myself, because otherwise I could not issue any orders to the personal staff.
Q. I know you saw it, but it has not been offered here in evidence, has it?
A. Yes, it was part of the document book, sir. That order of the Reichsfuehrer has been submitted also by my defense counsel today.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I was mistaken. I thought it referred to this order in the documents that were offered this morning, but the document itself was not offered. I may be mistaken about that. That was in Document Book No. 9, page 36, was it not?
DR. RAUSCHENBACH (For the defendant Hans Loerner): Perhaps I can help here. It is Document Book 7. It is Exhibit 202 and 204, 204 particularly, NO-266.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I was mistaken about that.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Do you recall any inquiries as to what kind of apparatus or equipment, accessories as referred to in this order, had to be purchased?
A. No, nor did I have any cause to do so, because the order that the bills must be met had already reached the treasury of the personal staff.
Q. While you were supervising Amt B-I, didn't you hear at any time about the food experiments that were being carried on under the supervision of that office?
A. No, I heard nothing at that time. The Food Inspectorate was not under A-I, but immediately under Pohl.
Q. Did you know Dr. Schenk?
A. I knew him by sight, but I did not know him very well.
Q. Did you ever have any conferences with him?
A. Dr. Schenk at that time supervised the new food, which was to say both packing and material, for the troops, from which I knew him because he described it and showed it to me quite often. It was socalled economy food, utility food, which was carried out by the army too, and when I supervised B-I that was being carried out.
Q. Are you telling us that Dr. Schenk had no connection with A-I or B-I?
A. He was merely a collaborator in that respect, particularly research into calories and things like that.
Q. Did you hear about research on poisoned food, and feeding of poisonous substances to concentration camp inmates?
A. No. I said before that any medical experiments, food experiments on concentration camp inmates, I heard nothing at all.
Q. Did you see any of the documents which were submitted here in evidence by the prosecution on the food experiments, that is in 1942 - did you see them - 1943?
A. No. Such documents which were submitted here I only saw here from the document books.
Q. Do you know whether the defendant Tschentscher supervised Dr. Schenk in any of these experiments on poisonous foods?
A. With the activities of defendant Tschentscher I am no longer informed. I had nothing to do with it in the end.
Q. Turning to another subject for a moment, when you received the document which was discussed this morning in connection with the Action Reinhardt, which was Pohl's order of the 4th of July, 1944, addressed to Office A-I, and you saw the subject, "Administration of Jewish Property Values", what did you assume that this action concerned itself with?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, this morning I said that I no longer today know whether I saw the order or not. If I had seen it at the time, it did not interest me, because reference was made to a letter which I had not received, to that letter A-II/3 Reinhardt, and therefore I had to assume that there was a mistake there, because the whole business Reinhardt was never referred to me before.
Therefore there was no cause, as far as I was concerned, to investigate that matter.
Q. And you are telling us you never heard of the term "Action Reinhardt"?
A. No, I never heard it before. Office A-I took no part in this action.
Q. Is it possible that a letter marked "secret" would be addressed to Office A-I, a letter concerning an important subject, and not come to your attention?
A. I said this morning that at that time, as I was working on the Todt Organization and the simplification of the administration, I would be absent from Berlin for about a fortnight at a time. The expert in the Office A-I/1, when he received that letter and saw that Office A-I was not interested in it, could, without any difficulty, file it, because it concerned a matter with which the Office A-I had no contact.
Q. Do you have Document Book 19 in front of you?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you turn to the last document in the book, which is NO2130, Exhibit 497, which is an order by Pohl concerning the dissolution of the SS economists in the Government General, Eastern Territories. This was addressed to Office A-I also. Do you recall seeing this letter?
A. Document 2130?
Q. Yes. You see the so-called special distribution on the last page of the document?
A. Yes, but there is no reference to Action Reinhardt here.
Q. I am just asking you if you saw the document, if you saw the letter?
A. It is possible that I saw it because the distribution names Office A-I.
Q. But you cannot remember having seen it?
A. I cannot recall today the detail of it, whether I saw the letter or not, but it is entirely possible.
Q. Why is it that a letter of this kind concerning the dissolution of the SS economists in the east would be addressed to A-I? It isn't addressed to the other sub-offices in the other departments.
A It is addressed to all offices: A1, A2, A4, A5; Office Group, B, C, D, and W -- the whole of the WVHA.
Q. Why is it addressed to all of the offices in A-1? What connection did all the offices--what connection did Office A-1 have with this?
AAny special connection A1- did not have. The SS Economist East was being referred to here only, and that SS economist had funds of the Waffen-SS at this disposal which, however, he administered independently. And that is probably the reason why Office A-1 is named on the distribution list.
Q Well, it is true, isn't it that office A-1 was kept informed about all the financial matters of the SS and the government in general?
A Only as far as it concerned the economist in connection with general budget matters informative reasons. I didn't know what the SS economist would spend. According to the documents submitted this morning, he was responsible for all expenses, and also he received his monies through a special field treasury so that I in Berlin was unable to find out what the SS economist would have spent. Auditing was not my business--the Reich Auditing Court of the German Reich -- that auditing was none A-1's business.
Q You told us that you were sent to the Todt organization--TODT-for the purpose of simplifying its administration. Is that correct?
A It was not sent to the Todt organization. A staff was set up in order to make proposals as to how to simplify the administration of the Todt organization.
Q And in accomplishing that task you had to familiarize yourself with the nature and the organization and the purpose of the Todt organization, didn't you?
A I had to mainly concentrate and the administrative organization of the Todt organization. The specifications of the Todt organization, the specification of the organization as such was not within my sphere. That was up to the expert in the Todt organization who was called Ministerialrat Schnell; for Ministerial tasks, there was a representative of the Ministry there.
And as far as the purely administrative tasks were concerned: accounting, wage paying, budget matters, which were to be carried out in accordance with the simplification of army administration -- that was my duty.
Q. Well, then according to these tasks, you became familiar with the fact, did you not, that the Todt organization was a construction outfit?
A. The Todt organization within the Reich Ministry of the Interior, the Armament Industry, and it carried out construction tasks for the Armament Industry.
Q. And who was its chief at the time you were there - working in the simplification, rather?
A. The actual chief was at that time -- I cannot recall the name anymore because I did not have anything to do with him. The supreme chief of course was the chief of the Armament Industry. As far as I know, the Chief of the OT organization was only provisionally. A full time chief, as far as I can recall, had not yet been appointed at that time. If I might be allowed to describe briefly my activity there, how these things -
Q. No; I am not very much concerned with that. You became familiar with the fact while you were there that these construction projects in armament industries were being carried out with the use of the concentration camp inmates, didn't you?
A. No; that did not become clear for my duties at all.
Q. Well, who did you think was being employed in these giant construction projects carried out by Todt? Did you think they were free workers?
A. They were, some of them, free-workers, and there must have been some inmates of concentration camps. I mean to say, anybody could see who went around in Germany, when buildings were being constructed, after air-raids after which the Todt organization looked also, when buildings were reconstructed, 2735(a) after air-raids after which the Todt organization looked also, when buildings were reconstructed, public buildings, I mean; and anybody could see who was working there.
Therefore, one need not have a special position to see that. If you went through a station, for instance, after an air-raid you could see side-by-side next to the usual civilian workers, inmates working on repairing the railroad tracks or houses. That was no secret.
Q Practically everybody in Germany knew that, didn't they?
A I don't know who saw it.
Q But it was a public sight?
A Yes, if the building was a public building, anybody could see who was working there.
Q Then you knew before you took this assignment with the Todt organization that it employed concentration camp inmates in its construction program?
A Yes...whether the Todt organization used them, I did not know. Quite generally, whenever building programs were being carried out that inmates were being used, that, most certainly, was no secret.
Q Going back to your discussion this morning of the duties of A-1 with regard to the budget, did I understand you to say that A-1 had no points of contact whatever with Amtsgruppen B, W, C, and D?
A No direct contacts, because we had an open budget. Office Group W did not have any Waffen-SS funds at all. It was financed from private means.
Q So you didn't have any contact either directly or indirectly with Office Group W?
A I had no contacts. It might happen, as I mentioned this morning, when I bought a site on the occasion of Stutthof, when Office Group W was ordered to pay back the 300,000 marks to the police treasury, such cases occurred, yes.
Q It not only might have happened -- it actually did happen?
A Yes, but only in exceptional cases, such as the one I described just now.
Q And you kept no account whatever of the income of the SS industries? That wasn't your function?
A No, that was up to the auditing court. Income from the inmates' moneys went to the Reich treasuries of the various concentration camps, and from there they went direct to the Reich Main Treasury. Income, just as expenses, were audited and examined by the auditing court.
Q Well, I understand that the income, the actual money, went direct to the Reich Main Treasury. But weren't records of this income and what had been sent to the treasury kept by office A, Amtsgruppe A?
A Office A-2 -- that is, the Accounting Office -- would receive monthly financial balance sheets, and that balance sheet contained all expenses and the whole of the income of the agencies. Income was listed in only one total sum. Inmate money would not be kept separately, for instance. That was again up to the auditing courts who examined that on the spot. Whether the money actually received would correspond to the bills and the balance sheets, that was not a matter for Office A-1.
Q And they were audited and checked by Office A-4, were they not?
A Whether A-4 audited it or the auditing court, I do not know. I am not very well informed about internal affairs of Office A-4.
Q Well, tell us then what points of contact there were between your office, A-1, and Amtsgruppe B?
A No direct contact, actually.
Q Well, what indirect contact as far as the budget was concerned?
A When, for instance, the administrative stores which supplied the food, or the supply stores, would request the money through the WVHA from the Reich Ministry of Finance, that was the only point of contact. After 1944, which I described before, the agencies raised their money directly by so-called "brown checks" with the result that no more requests for money were necessary. These troops supply camps and storage camps no longer had to request the WVHA to supply them because the Reich Ministry of Finance had given permission.
Q You have explained all that. Were there any points of contact, either directly or indirectly between A-1 and Amtsgruppe C?
A Only as I have described it, with Office Group B, that the building inspectorate which had a treasury would request their money or direct with the banks, just as the agency did in Office Group B.
Q And is the same true for Amtsgruppe D?
A Office Group D? The same applies there for the treasuries of the concentration camps as far as they were not subordinate to garrison treasuries. That is why I used the example of the garrison treasury of Dachau.
Q Now, referring to that example briefly, you said that the total demand would be put together in Amtsgruppe A, and this total demand passed on to the Minister of Finance as to money needed by the Waffen SS for the month of October, and then the Reich Minister of Finance transmitted the money directly to the various units?
A Yes.
Q Now, what did Office A-1 have to do in this transaction? Was it by-passed completely?
A. Office A-11/3 dealt with the matter, as it was more a treasury business. It was dealt with by Office A-II and not by Office A-I. That agency could equally have been with Office A-I. That was a purely organizational detail, but after Obersturmbannfuehrer Eggert had become Chief of A-II and had managed this already with the Verwaltungsamt-SS, that is to say, prior to the 1st of January, 1942, he was left in charge of that agency and when he became Chief of Office A-II with the WVHA, it was a pure coincidence for this treasury not to be with A-I, but with A-II and was purely based on the fact that this man happened to be in charge.
Q. Well, let's take a more concrete example. During the time that you were in charge of A-I, did you hear about the construction of any concentration camps?
A. I did not hear any details.
Q. Did you hear that Nordhausen was built during your term of office, for example?
A. No, I knew nothing about Camp Nordhausen.
Q. Did you hear that Bergen-Belsen was constructed during your term of office?
A. No.
Q. Now in the case of the construction of a concentration camp, for example, there would have to be the purchase of iron girders, cement, nails, barbed wire, and so forth. Can you tell us from where these materials were supplied?
A. Just what agency supplied these things I did not know, but I assume that Office Group C, the Building Inspectorate had supply agencies which supplied these things centrally.
Q. Well, Frank told us that in the case of large scale constructions, that it was necessary for Amtsgruppe A to have some dealings with these expenditures, and I'm trying to find out from you what you know about those procedures. Which Office in Amtsgruppe A handled the financial dealings?
A. I did not hear that Frank said that Office Group A had carried this out, it was Office Group C. Office Group C had its building inspectorate and Office Group A knew nothing about the building project.
Only C and Kammler could do that.
Q. It's true that there was an open budget, but for large expenditures, unusual expenditures, it was necessary for Amtsgruppe A to make some check on this and to pass the demand on to the Reichsminister of Finance, wasn't it?
A. Special permissions were necessary usually only when building or land was being bought. That was not looked after by Office A-I, however, but by the Legal Office A-III, because here they had legal problems with which A-I would have been unable to deal.
Q. And that office was headed by a man by the name of Ast, A-S-T?
A. No, Standartenfuehrer Salpeter. Ast was an assistant in that office.
Q. He was in charge of the real estate, purchasing land for new concentration camps, wasn't he -- Ast?
A. I don't know how things were subdivided in A-III.
Q. In none of these purchases of land for the enlargement of concentration camps were you informed, you received notification? You had nothing whatever to do with it, is that right?
A. It is possible that A-I was informed about that. I do not wish to dispute that, but I did not work on it. It was worked on by Office A-III.
Q. It is not only possible that you were informed; it is a fact, isn't it, that your office was kept informed about these expansions and acquisitions of land? That was a regular procedure, wasn't it? You were on the distribution list.
Q. It is possible, because the Reichsminister of Finance permitted and granted the monies later on. We had to be informed.
Q. When you joined the WVHA you knew, didn't you, what kind of tasks Amtsgruppe C was carrying out? You knew that Amtsgruppe was engaged in construction and that it used inmate labor, slave labor, in the construction of its projects?
A. I knew that Office Group C was competent for all buildings of the Waffen-SS. I also knew that because of the shortage of manpower, apart from civilian workers, concentration camp inmates worked on building programs. I did not know that in building programs concentration camp inmates were worked to death. I needn't have known it and I didn't know it, simply because my position had nothing to do with that sort of thing.
Q. You knew, didn't you, that Amtsgruppe W employed concentration camp inmates in its industries?
A. That was well known.
Q. And you know when Amtsgruppe D was incorporated into the WVHA that it was charged with the administration of the concentration camps?
A. They were not only ordered to do so, they already had the administration as the Inspectorate.
Q. When was it that you first found out that inmates were being mistreated in concentration camps and that they were being worked to death in the stone quarries of Amtsgruppe W? Did you ever find out about that while you hold your position in the WVHA?
A. No, I emphasized before that I knew that concentration camp inmates were used to work, but I did not know that when they did so they were being worked to death.
Q. Did you think that everyone in the concentration camps were criminals. Did you think that they had all been duly tried?
A. I knew that during the war inmates had been sent to concentration camps without having been tried duly before. In total war, and as Germany was encircled, the higher Government Departments became increasingly nervous and regulations about offenses, became more and more tight. What I imagined was that these were measures necessitated by the war time emergency. I dispute most emphatically of having knowledge, first, that mass murders were being executed and, two, that inmates were being worked to death, and, three, that inmates starved to death in concentration camps. I never knew that, on the basis of my position.
Q. Did you know either privately or through any other sources, not on the basis of your official position?
A. No, I said I didn't know it at all.
Q. Did you know that Bible Research Workers, so-called, the Jehova's Witnesses, as a group were placed into concentration camps without being given any hearing at all?
A. As far as I knew the Jehova's Witnesses were sent to concentration camps because they were conscientious objectors -- on the basis of their attitude.
Q. Did you know that trade union members were sent to concentration camps?
A. I know nothing about the individual categories of people who were sent to concentration camps. I knew that people of various nationalities were in concentration camps, but whether these included trade union officials I was unable to know, because I never saw any reports of concentration camp inmates.
Q. Did you know prisoners-of-war were incarcerated in concentration camps?
A. No, I said before that I knew nothing about prisoners-of-war.
Q. You knew, didn't you, that Jews were rounded up and put into concentration camps without any hearing at all?
A. All I knew was that Jews were in concentration camps.
Q. How many inmates did you think were in the concentration camps in 1942 when you became -
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Mr. Robbins, let's pursue that preceding answer just a second. You said you knew that Jews were in concentration camps. Well, you also knew that they were sent there without any trial of any kind?
WITNESS: Under what circumstances Jews were being sent to concentration camps was unknown to me. How should I know it?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: But you did know that they were not given any hearing of any kind, because I think you stated earlier that you knew that practically all concentration camp inmates were sent without being given a hearing.
WITNESS: Your Honor, I did not know under what circumstances they were sent, whether they were sent there on a basis of an order, I did not know, because I had no connection with the Reich Security Office or other agencies responsible for the commitment of inmates.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Well, you know today that people were sent to concentration camps without trials. You know, don't you. You knew it then.
WITNESS: I knew that people were in camps who had not been put before an ordinary trial, but on the basis of what offense or what orders they had been committed to a camp was unknown to me.
Q I'm only asking you if you did not know that practically all inmates of concentration camps were without having been given a hearing in the sense that we understand a judicial hearing.
A No, I did not know that, your Honor; certainly not.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q How many inmates did you think were in the concentration camps in 1942?
A I am unable to give you any estimate at all. I never saw any lists.
Q Well, did you know anybody who was ever Sent to a concentration camp?
A You mean I personally?
Q Yes.
A No.
Q You wouldn't make any estimate at all as to the population of the camps? Did you think it was 100,000, 50,000, 200,000?
A No, I never made an estimate.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a minute, Mr. Robbins.
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness, a few minutes ago you said that since Germany was encircled--Do you remember saying that?
A Yes, Mr. President.
Q Of course, everyone is encircled. What did you mean by that? Encircled by what?
A Encircled by the enemy, military speaking, encircled. Germany was cut off from the rest of the world.
Q When did this become true? At what time?
A That became a fact after the fall of Stalingrad and later on after the invasion by the Allied troops.
Q I see. You don't mean that Germany was encircled by enemies in 1939?
A No. No, certainly not, Mr. President, only during war-time. Later on the encirclement became stronger and stronger as the war went on, particularly after Stalingrad, when the front had to be withdrawn all the time, and the higher agencies became more and more nervous.
Q You mean finally the nations against whom Germany had waged war surrounded her?
A Yes, quite.
Q All right.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q When did you first find out, if you ever found out, that it was the policy of the Nazi Party, of the SS, and of the German Reich to carry on the persecution of Jews?
A Mr. Prosecutor, the Party program has been quoted before and particularly the point that the Jews are to be segregated from public life, cannot be citizens, and are to be regarded as guests of Germany only. Between that paragraph and the extermination of the Jews there is a colossal difference. I could not see from the Party program that the extermination was intended. I had no idea of that.
Q Did you see that from the SS newspaper "Das Schwarze Korps"?
A No.
Q Did you ever read the paper?
A I saw it once or twice, yes.
Q You saw the "Schwarze Korps" only one or twice during your whole time with the SS?
A No. I do not wish to say that; but I cannot say either that I saw every single copy.
Q Did you see it regularly?
A Not regularly, irregularly.
Q Did you see it once a week?
A It came out only once a week.
Q Did you see it weekly?
A I said before that I am unable to say whether I saw every single copy. I traveled quite a lot; and when I traveled, I certainly did not read that paper.
Q You didn't at any time see in the "Schwarze Korps" that it was the policy of the SS to eliminate the Jews from Germany?
A I said before that there is a great difference between elimination and extermination.
Q What do you think the "Schwarze Korps" meant when it said, "for elimination."? Did you think it was deportation or just what?
A Elimination of the Jews from public life. May I perhaps at this point, Mr. President, mention an incident which is connected with this? This did not happen in wartime but before the war. It is being said all the time that we should have known from the Party program that the Party and the SS aimed at the extermination of the Jews. Therefore, I want to mention this. In 1936, up to the outbreak of war when I worked in Nuernberg, I was responsible also for the feeding and billeting of the SS during the Reich Party rallies. On those occasions the so-called guest tent of Reichsfuehrer Himmler was under my command. That was a guest tent which was a tent set up every year in the SS camp where Himmler received his guests, on the eve of the big parade before Hitler.
Among those guests there were the bigger part of the foreign diplomats and military attaches whom Himmler had invited and who had available themselves of that invitation. On those occasions there were usually about 1200 or 1500 guests. Guests were treated with Frankonian specialities. The Reichfuehrer made a speech, including to the foreign diplomats, who were present, and the speech was replied to in a very cordial tone by the dean of the diplomatic corps, and the SS was praised in particular.
Following that speech every guest received a present from the Reichfuehrer SS in the shape of a vase produced in the Allach factories.
That vase was filled with Nuernberg gingerbread. After that the Leibstandarte played a piece of military music because night had fallen. At that time I as an SS leader could never form the impression that the SS was an unlawful or criminal organization, when foreign diplomats came as the guests of the supreme Leader of that same SS and received presents from him. The Party program was not a secret document. It was public; and certainly it must have been known abroad.
EXAMINATION BY THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO):Q What year was that?
A 1936, 1937, and 1938. The same was also to have taken place in 1939; but the Party Rally did not take place because of the outbreak of war. I remember this extremely well because I had a lot of trouble with the tent, and from Friday evening to Sunday evening I never saw me bed.
Q In what month of the year did the Rally take place?
A The Reich Party Rally usually took place in the beginning of September.
Q And lasted until when?
A It usually lasted about a week.
Q Then it happened in September, and you say this program which you have just indicated of festivities and entertainment occurred in 1936, 1937, and 1938?
A Yes, quite. I know it myself because I was personally present.
Q And the foreign diplomats were present, you said?
A Yes.
Q Now, all this happened prior to November 10, 1938, didn't it?
A Yes, yes.
Q So that the foreign diplomats did not have an opportunity of observing the SS in action against the Jews, did they, when they were receiving this gingerbread that you speak of?
A No, not at that time, but what I wanted to say is that reception was planned also for 1939.
Q Did they have it in 1939?
A It could not take place because war broke out on the 4th of September.
Q The foreign diplomats weren't there in 1939; they were interned, I imagine.
A Yes, quite.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q You knew at that time, in September 1936, 1937, and 1938, that concentration camps were being operated in Germany, that they were being operated under the supervision of the SS, didn't you?
AAt that time in the Allgemeine SS I had no point of contact with concentration camps whatsoever. I knew that they existed. Apart from that I knew nothing at all about them.
Q But you knew they existed?
A Yes.
Q You didn't know what kind of people were sent there at all? You had no idea about that?
A I knew nothing at the time because I did not deal with concentration camps at that time.
EXAMINATION BY THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO):
Q Witness, you personally learned of November 10, 1938 exesses did you not? You've heard of them?
A Yes.
Q You also knew of the billion lark indemnity levied on the Jews in Germany?
A How big the damage was I did not know, your Honor. I knew that a great many shops had been plundered and smashed. That the indemnity amounted to in the whole of Germany I was quite unable to judge.
Q Then you learned rather early that the Jews were being per secuted.